R211 Discussion Thread

[RandomRider0101]

9 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Cars should not be assigned because one set of riders "derserves" new cars more than others. There should really only be 3 main factors in deciding fleet allocation listed by order of importance below:

1. Where can cars physically run. Obv we know A and B division cars are different, but even with B-divison you have cases like the  which can't handle longer 75ft trains due to sharp curves and only runs 480ft long trains. 

2. Which lines have CBTC? Lines that are partially or fully CBTC enameled should be prioritized for newer cars.

3. Demand on a given line. How frequently do trains need to run, and how crowded are those trains? Lines that have higher demand should be prioritized for newer cars.

 

If you're upset with the R211 allocations, I think the real discussion should be around what lines the MTA is choosing to implement CBTC on first. I personally think both the  and were good lines for testing the waters as they're both decently high demand and don't interline with the rest of the system. I think the main reason the MTA is now trying to do most of the IND is because of Queens BLVD being such a high ridership line with a lot of interlining and frequent headways; doing CBTC on QBLVD but not 6th and 8th Avenue sort of ruins the point.

As for Broadway, I think the MTA just needs to figure out it's service patterns. Broadway in the most interlined trunk, and having a split  train is really annoying generally. The main issue with Broadway is for the northern branches, the local lines tend to be favored since they're the only ones who can direct access 60th St tunnel, but to the South express Manhattan Bridge trains are clearly favored over Montague local trains. Any de-interlined/streamlined service plan will likely have way more tph via Montague than needed and more tph up SAS than needed.

 

Exactly. The MTA doesn't assign cars based on what line is more deserving, they assign them based on need. The & are getting the R211s first not bc they deserve it, but bc they actually need them as they are next in line for CBTC.

Since Queens Blvd is the busiest B division corridor it would not be surprising if they got at least a chunk of the R211 order, especially option 2 which will more than likely be open gangway. Ultimately, it is on the CED to determine where these cars go. Hopefully they make the best decisions on where to put them.

[Lawrence St]

And yet 90% of the comments in this thread have been “oh but the poor  and  have had the shameful R46’s for the past x years and deserve new equipment!” 🙄

[AZthefoamer]

As someone who has ridden the and for many years, I can testify that the quality of those lines are harmed by older rolling stock, and I am happy with the MTA putting NTTs on it and adding CBTC on 8th Avenue. I am not going to go into immense speculation but 8th Avenue and Queens Boulevard make the most sense for the R211 to run on, at least initially.

[Fan Railer]

29 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

And yet 90% of the comments in this thread have been “oh but the poor  and  have had the shameful R46’s for the past x years and deserve new equipment!” 🙄

Correlation does not imply causation.

[foggymetro28]

Does anybody have any news on the SIR R211S pilot cars 100-104? Does anybody know the date of their start of delivery?

[Kamen Rider]

well, ideally, sometime this week.

SIRTOA is technically under Department of Subways but they're off in their own little corner, doing their own little thing. We really don't talk to them, and they really don't talk to us, 

[RandomRider0101]

1 hour ago, AZthefoamer said:

As someone who has ridden the and for many years, I can testify that the quality of those lines are harmed by older rolling stock, and I am happy with the MTA putting NTTs on it and adding CBTC on 8th Avenue. I am not going to go into immense speculation but 8th Avenue and Queens Boulevard make the most sense for the R211 to run on, at least initially.

I agree. The 75 footers have caused a lot of problems since their introduction to the subway system, hence why they are now obselete. The R32s (not 75 footers) also caused a different set of issues being in service a decade longer with their very unreliable A/C & high breakdown rates. It is refreshing to know that those cars are permanently done with service & I'll be glad when the R46s go next.

[subwaycommuter1983]

12 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Cars should not be assigned because one set of riders "derserves" new cars more than others. There should really only be 3 main factors in deciding fleet allocation listed by order of importance below:

1. Where can cars physically run. Obv we know A and B division cars are different, but even with B-divison you have cases like the  which can't handle longer 75ft trains due to sharp curves and only runs 480ft long trains. 

2. Which lines have CBTC? Lines that are partially or fully CBTC enameled should be prioritized for newer cars.

3. Demand on a given line. How frequently do trains need to run, and how crowded are those trains? Lines that have higher demand should be prioritized for newer cars.

 

If you're upset with the R211 allocations, I think the real discussion should be around what lines the MTA is choosing to implement CBTC on first. I personally think both the  and were good lines for testing the waters as they're both decently high demand and don't interline with the rest of the system. I think the main reason the MTA is now trying to do most of the IND is because of Queens BLVD being such a high ridership line with a lot of interlining and frequent headways; doing CBTC on QBLVD but not 6th and 8th Avenue sort of ruins the point.

As for Broadway, I think the MTA just needs to figure out it's service patterns. Broadway in the most interlined trunk, and having a split  train is really annoying generally. The main issue with Broadway is for the northern branches, the local lines tend to be favored since they're the only ones who can direct access 60th St tunnel, but to the South express Manhattan Bridge trains are clearly favored over Montague local trains. Any de-interlined/streamlined service plan will likely have way more tph via Montague than needed and more tph up SAS than needed.

 

One possible solution to speed service is to have the N go to Brighton Beach and have the B go to Coney Island via Sea Beach that way both the NQ stop at Dekalb via Manhattan Bridge, while both the BD skip Dekalb Avenue

This solution will also provide express service on Brighton 7 days a week and will force the B to run 7 days a week (Between CI and Bedford Park during the weekdays and Between CI and 145 during the weekends).

The only downside is that we would have to wait for all the r211's to be service to ensure that there will be enough subway cars to allow this change.

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, foggymetro said:

Does anybody have any news on the SIR R211S pilot cars 100-104? Does anybody know the date of their start of delivery?

100-104 or 101-105?

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

17 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

One possible solution to speed service is to have the N go to Brighton Beach and have the B go to Coney Island via Sea Beach that way both the NQ stop at Dekalb via Manhattan Bridge, while both the BD skip Dekalb Avenue

This solution will also provide express service on Brighton 7 days a week and will force the B to run 7 days a week (Between CI and Bedford Park during the weekdays and Between CI and 145 during the weekends).

The only downside is that we would have to wait for all the r211's to be service to ensure that there will be enough subway cars to allow this change.

This is an interesting de-interlining idea, but I don't see how this fixes the split  or the  train crossover problem.

[AZthefoamer]

32 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

100-104 or 101-105?

I think 100 is the first car in the R211S order.

[subwaycommuter1983]

41 minutes ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

This is an interesting de-interlining idea, but I don't see how this fixes the split  or the  train crossover problem.

This plan won't solve all the issues on the Broadway line. However, it will speed up service on Dekalb Avenue, an area where most of the delays on the BDNQ happen.

All N trains need to go to Astoria.

I just hope the MTA considers this plan once all r211's are in service, since it will benefit Broadway, Brighton, 6 AV express and CPW local.

Edited April 23, 2023 by subwaycommuter1983

[ABOGbrooklyn]

31 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

 

I just hope the MTA considers this plan once all r211's are in service, since it will benefit Broadway, Brighton, 6 AV express and CPW local.

It's predicted that BMT South line's won't get the R211s except for the

[Kamen Rider]

I swear we need a Broadway line swear jar for this thread…

[subwaycommuter1983]

3 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

It's predicted that BMT South line's won't get the R211s except for the

I never mentioned in any of my posts that the NQ will get r211's.

What I mentioned in the previous post is that since the r211's will solve the subway car shortage, it would be a good idea to send the B to Coney Island via Sea Beach, while the N can go to Brighton Beach to improve  service on the BDNQ since a lot of the delays (especially northbound) happen around Dekalb Avenue.

Also, I did mention that the BD will most likely get r211's because 59th Street is included in 8th Avenue CBTC and 6th Avenue will get CBTC as well, so the r68's cannot stay on the BD.

Edited April 23, 2023 by subwaycommuter1983

[zacster]

5 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

One possible solution to speed service is to have the N go to Brighton Beach and have the B go to Coney Island via Sea Beach that way both the NQ stop at Dekalb via Manhattan Bridge, while both the BD skip Dekalb Avenue

This solution will also provide express service on Brighton 7 days a week and will force the B to run 7 days a week (Between CI and Bedford Park during the weekdays and Between CI and 145 during the weekends).

The only downside is that we would have to wait for all the r211's to be service to ensure that there will be enough subway cars to allow this change.

A big downside, no 6th Ave service for Brighton riders without the long transfer at Atlantic.  And the same the other way, no Sea Beach or West End easy transfer for Broadway.  It is bad enough that you can't get to 6th Ave Sat and Sun from the Brighton. 

[darkstar8983]

Not to stray TOO far from talking about thee R211s, I do not think de-interlining DeKalb Av is in the best interest of riders along the 4 Av / Brighton Trunks, because you take away direct service to a major Manhattan trunk. What needs to be done (after the R211s are here) is to increase service levels along the four routes to 24 TPH (pending ridership rebounds) combined (12 TPH each for the , or at least ensure the headways are even among the four routes. Otherwise you end up with a situation similar to Columbus Circle, where you have uneven merges and therefore, service gaps and train bunching.

 

As for assignments, I do agree that Queens Blvd will get a chunk of this order, while Concourse / Coney Island will just get R160s  (lower ridership along the . Yes this means that R160s must be made compatible with 8 Av CBTC to run on the , and based on the math on current car projections, the R211 order will be exactly enough to cover the  or the , with R160s in the former arrangements to be assigned to the  (and the R160s staying in Jamaica in the latter arrangement). You need minimum 750 R160s (or R211s) to cover the current  (350 cars for the  and 400 cars for the ), and 750 R211s to cover the  (500 for the  (including the ) and 250 for the ) including spares and CBTC related service increases and spare factor increases. Yes that means I am not counting the 130 R179s in 5-car sets that could also bolster the  fleet and reduce the 500 car balance the  needs. But if the R179s aforementioned are counted, then this allows additional 5-car R211 trains to be assigned to the other CBTC enabled routes etc. This order would lead to a temporary surplus of subway cars in the B-division that could help with getting SAS phase 2 in service with the current fleet without the need for an R68 replacement until those cars really start to hit the fan. 

Remember that phase 2 is projected to be in service by 2027-2029, and the R211 order will be here (and hopefully completed by then, even if just by a few months ahead of time). Subway car SMS in the B division will also be much easier due to the higher spare factor across the board, with now every subway line capable of having a spare factor of at least 7 trains, INCLUDING Broadway and their R68s (  would have R68s 2500-2859 - 360 cars / 45 train sets) ( would have R68As 5001-5200 and R68s 2860-2915 - 256 cars / 32 train sets). Assuming phase 2 starts with the current R68s still online, you can still pull off the current service pattern of  to Astoria and  (and some Rush hour  trips to/from 2 Av) by shifting cars 2860-2883 to the  pool. Mislabeled trains will still be a pain in the ***, but the necessary service can be provided assuming the entire R211 order is sought. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by darkstar8983

[darkstar8983]

3 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

I swear we need a Broadway line swear jar for this thread…

I think we need a Broadway Line thread haha

[Lawrence St]

This may sound kinda weird, but how are the B cars constructed? It seems there's less room on both ends but the doors are in the exact same place as on the A car, unless the doors are moved or the B cars are shorter?

Edited April 24, 2023 by Lawrence St

[ABOGbrooklyn]

I'm thinking the MTA will send a second option order of R211s to replace the R68 fleet because the

R68s are a small fleet,

They are approaching 35/40 years old

They're 75ft

And there will be problems with sign switching at Astoria for N/W trains.

[U-BahnNYC]

3 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Not to stray TOO far from talking about thee R211s, I do not think de-interlining DeKalb Av is in the best interest of riders along the 4 Av / Brighton Trunks, because you take away direct service to a major Manhattan trunk. What needs to be done (after the R211s are here) is to increase service levels along the four routes to 24 TPH (pending ridership rebounds) combined (12 TPH each for the , or at least ensure the headways are even among the four routes. Otherwise you end up with a situation similar to Columbus Circle, where you have uneven merges and therefore, service gaps and train bunching.

 

As for assignments, I do agree that Queens Blvd will get a chunk of this order, while Concourse / Coney Island will just get R160s  (lower ridership along the . Yes this means that R160s must be made compatible with 8 Av CBTC to run on the , and based on the math on current car projections, the R211 order will be exactly enough to cover the  or the , with R160s in the former arrangements to be assigned to the  (and the R160s staying in Jamaica in the latter arrangement). You need minimum 750 R160s (or R211s) to cover the current  (350 cars for the  and 400 cars for the ), and 750 R211s to cover the  (500 for the  (including the ) and 250 for the ) including spares and CBTC related service increases and spare factor increases. Yes that means I am not counting the 130 R179s in 5-car sets that could also bolster the  fleet and reduce the 500 car balance the  needs. But if the R179s aforementioned are counted, then this allows additional 5-car R211 trains to be assigned to the other CBTC enabled routes etc. This order would lead to a temporary surplus of subway cars in the B-division that could help with getting SAS phase 2 in service with the current fleet without the need for an R68 replacement until those cars really start to hit the fan. 

Remember that phase 2 is projected to be in service by 2027-2029, and the R211 order will be here (and hopefully completed by then, even if just by a few months ahead of time). Subway car SMS in the B division will also be much easier due to the higher spare factor across the board, with now every subway line capable of having a spare factor of at least 7 trains, INCLUDING Broadway and their R68s (  would have R68s 2500-2859 - 360 cars / 45 train sets) ( would have R68As 5001-5200 and R68s 2860-2915 - 256 cars / 32 train sets). Assuming phase 2 starts with the current R68s still online, you can still pull off the current service pattern of  to Astoria and  (and some Rush hour  trips to/from 2 Av) by shifting cars 2860-2883 to the  pool. Mislabeled trains will still be a pain in the ***, but the necessary service can be provided assuming the entire R211 order is sought. 

Let's be real here, this is the we're talking about - it will be a miracle if SAS phase 2 is ready by 2030 and not over $10billion lol

[U-BahnNYC]

6 minutes ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

I'm thinking the MTA will send a second option order of R211s to replace the R68 fleet because the

R68s are a small fleet,

They are approaching 35/40 years old

They're 75ft

And there will be problems with sign switching at Astoria for N/W trains.

I'm not sure if they have this ability in the current budget? Don't forget the R262 is more of a priority than an R68 replacement right now. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by U-BahnNYC

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

I'm thinking the MTA will send a second option order of R211s to replace the R68 fleet because the

R68s are a small fleet,

They are approaching 35/40 years old

They're 75ft

And there will be problems with sign switching at Astoria for N/W trains.

2nd option order wouldn't be enough to kill off the r68 fleet. The 2nd option order is for fleet growth.

The last thing we need is another car shortage because we got rid of a fleet that doesn't need a replacement right away. Unless they do a 3rd option order of 600-800 R211 cars, It wouldn't make any sense to replace the entire R68/A fleet right away.

[Around the Horn]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

This may sound kinda weird, but how are the B cars constructed? It seems there's less room on both ends but the doors are in the exact same place as on the A car, unless the doors are moved or the B cars are shorter?

The ends have extra electrical cabinets for the various LCD screens and security cameras. Its also why the end seats have been removed.

[Comrade96]

3 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

I'm thinking the MTA will send a second option order of R211s to replace the R68 fleet because the

R68s are a small fleet,

They are approaching 35/40 years old

They're 75ft

And there will be problems with sign switching at Astoria for N/W trains.

for the last time, no r68s or 68as are being replaced by 211s

We need 940 r211s alone to replace all the r46s + another 100+ or so to fill the void left by the r32s

Given current outlook of both mta and feds the 2nd option may 9r may not happen, even tho it 100% needs to

Why do you keep going on about Astoria sign issues? thats a non issue in the grand scheme of things

Edited April 24, 2023 by Comrade96
typo