Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[bwwnyc123]

1 hour ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Actually, let me ask a different question: why extend the  to Coney Island/86? Since it will just run local? Why create an extra merge at 59 when you can either terminate it at Whitehall or 95?

Because Coney Island need a Full Time service all times which is the , is the Weekday only Supplement.  Just like now they both terminate at Ditmars Blvd with no problems.

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by bwwnyc123

[LGA Link N Train]

One thing I fail to Understand is the Sentiment of Astoria needing 2 services on the weekdays .

"If you were to run only one service in Astoria, then would be under served!"

^ I find this claim to be a load a BS because if you were to run Double the amount of One service, would Astoria still be under served?

Also, I'm working on a year old proposal to upgrade the Line. When i'll post it, I have not figured that out yet. 

[Wallyhorse]

4 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Why make the  local on the weekends? It makes more sense to just have the  run on weekends instead (not that I would do that). 

Other than that, this plan is fine. While it is a bare minimum in that it only kills the 34th merge and still leaves Astoria underserved, it’s still better than the delays in of today.

Especially since during the spring and fall months, you have people especially on Saturdays using the  to Archer to get the Q110 bus to Belmont Park, especially on weekends.  I've done it with the local and it was a real PITA. 

[R68OnBroadway]

2 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

One thing I fail to Understand is the Sentiment of Astoria needing 2 services on the weekdays .

"If you were to run only one service in Astoria, then would be under served!"

^ I find this claim to be a load a BS because if you were to run Double the amount of One service, would Astoria still be under served?

Also, I'm working on a year old proposal to upgrade the Line. When i'll post it, I have not figured that out yet. 

It’s not really a question of services but of frequency... Broadway local is limited to IIRC 24 tph due to the City Hall curve (though the speed increase there might help a little). Astoria is currently served by I believe 7.5  TPH and 7.5  TPH (15 TPH total). The  now runs 10 TPH and the  runs 10 TPH (so 20 TPH goes to QBL local. If we are going to a 1:1 split, we up QBL by 2 TPH but cut 3 from Astoria. If we go for 20 (a meaningful increase) to Astoria, we give Astoria a good amount of service but screw over QBL. If we end up sending the  and  to Astoria and and have another QBL local-8th service we give Astoria a good increase and can still keep a good frequency on QBL local (The  would run at 11 TPH while the  keeps 15 as IIRC WTC can turn only 26 TPH at most).

(The reason for keeping the  designation is because it would avoid confusion from designating all the trains at short-turns to Whitehall.)

[RR503]

3 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

It’s not really a question of services but of frequency... Broadway local is limited to IIRC 24 tph due to the City Hall curve (though the speed increase there might help a little). Astoria is currently served by I believe 7.5  TPH and 7.5  TPH (15 TPH total). The  now runs 10 TPH and the  runs 10 TPH (so 20 TPH goes to QBL local. If we are going to a 1:1 split, we up QBL by 2 TPH but cut 3 from Astoria. If we go for 20 (a meaningful increase) to Astoria, we give Astoria a good amount of service but screw over QBL. If we end up sending the  and  to Astoria and and have another QBL local-8th service we give Astoria a good increase and can still keep a good frequency on QBL local (The  would run at 11 TPH while the  keeps 15 as IIRC WTC can turn only 26 TPH at most).

 (The reason for keeping the  designation is because it would avoid confusion from designating all the trains at short-turns to Whitehall.)

Remember you have Canal to turn trains, too! Then you should be able to do whatever signals/dwells will allow on Broadway local-60th. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

4 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

Because Coney Island need a Full Time service all times which is the , is the Weekday only Supplement.  Just like now they both terminate at Ditmars Blvd with no problems.

 

True, and that’s why the full time service (the ) should not be local all the way through Brooklyn and Manhattan.

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

It’s not really a question of services but of frequency... Broadway local is limited to IIRC 24 tph due to the City Hall curve (though the speed increase there might help a little). Astoria is currently served by I believe 7.5  TPH and 7.5  TPH (15 TPH total). The  now runs 10 TPH and the  runs 10 TPH (so 20 TPH goes to QBL local. If we are going to a 1:1 split, we up QBL by 2 TPH but cut 3 from Astoria. If we go for 20 (a meaningful increase) to Astoria, we give Astoria a good amount of service but screw over QBL. If we end up sending the  and  to Astoria and and have another QBL local-8th service we give Astoria a good increase and can still keep a good frequency on QBL local (The  would run at 11 TPH while the  keeps 15 as IIRC WTC can turn only 26 TPH at most).

(The reason for keeping the  designation is because it would avoid confusion from designating all the trains at short-turns to Whitehall.)

So even with a limit of 24 tph on the City Hall curve, Astoria   can run more frequently than the current  and  put together, assuming a minimal amount of merging.

Edited June 20, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue

[BreeddekalbL]

Insane idea,

With the rbb 🙄 for intra Queens service how would a Subway on junction blvd to Lga be feasible

Subway runs down junction to a new rego park 63rd drive transfer station under QB line with springboard into the RBB BRANCH to Rockaway park? 

Edited June 21, 2019 by BreeddekalbL

[Bay Ridge Express]

2 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Insane idea,

With the rbb 🙄 for intra Queens service how would a Subway on junction blvd to Lga be feasible

Subway runs down junction to a new rego park 63rd drive transfer station under QB line with springboard into the RBB BRANCH to Rockaway park? 

I think you could make it a Rockaway split type thing where one service off the QBL runs to LGA and another runs to RBB, with a track connection between LGA and RBB easily being available.

[BreeddekalbL]

Random thought I'm sure and swapping 53rd and 63rd has been discussed but if I proposed it would it minimalize switching and merging on Queens Blvd? 

Edited June 21, 2019 by BreeddekalbL

[RR503]

11 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Random thought I'm sure and swapping 53rd and 63rd has been discussed but if I proposed it would it minimalize switching and merging on Queens Blvd? 

You’d eliminate the merging between the  and  at Queens Plaza and move the  merge to 36 St, yes. It would, though, f**k up the load imbalance between locals and expresses on Queens Boulevard even further, reduce capacity on QB express by sending all trains through Lex-53 (dwell issues), and complicate off peak service patterns...so maybe not the best of ideas.

[Around the Horn]

So back in October, I posted my grand B Division Interlining scheme for weekday service. That post can be found here (https://www.nyctransitforums.com/topic/48571-department-of-subways-proposalsideas/page/285/?tab=comments#comment-994054) and the subsequent pages may also be of interest...

This time around, I've finally come up with a weekend version of that deinterlining scheme that I feel works (same rules apply as before; no new tracks except for the  connection to Fulton Street, and TPH figures are for peak periods)

Quote

NYC Subway B Division (Weekend) Deinterlining Proposal:

Norwood-205 St to Rockaways via Fulton/8 Av Express/Concourse Local  (10 TPH, 5 Mott Av/5 Howard Beach)

Bedford Park Blvd to Lefferts Blvd via Concourse Local/8 Av/Fulton Exp  (5 TPH)

207 St to Coney Island via CPW local/6 Av Exp/Brighton Local  (15 TPH)

WTC to Jamaica Center via 8 Av/53 St local/QB express (7.5 TPH) 

*same as today 

Long Island City-Court Square to Church Av (7.5 TPH)

Lower Manhattan-Broad St to Jamaica Center via Nassau St/Jamaica Local  (7.5 TPH)

  WTC to Forest Hills-71 Av via 8 Av/53 St/QB local (7.5 TPH)

*same as today 

Metropolitan Av to Forest Hills-71 Av via Myrtle Av/6 Av Local/QB local  (7.5 TPH)

  96 St to Coney Island via Broadway Express/Sea Beach (10 TPH)

96 St to Coney Island via Broadway Express/West End  (10 TPH)

Essex St to Bay Ridge-95 St via Nassau Street/4th Av local (7.5 TPH) 

Astoria-Ditmars to Whitehall St or Euclid Av via Broadway local/Montague/Fulton St Local (15 TPH, 7.5 to Whitehall/7.5 to Euclid)

 

As you can see above, my main goal was to ensure that Manhattan trunks have a train every 4 minutes...

Quote

8th Av: express  local

6th Av: express  local  

Broadway: express  local  

Nassau: local  

CPW: express  local  

QBL: express  local  

and most outer branches have a train every 8 minutes.

The 12 minute frequencies on the  branches in Queens is an exception since a pattern of A-A-C-A-A-C produces a train every 4 minutes in the central core.

Also, running the  train every 4 minutes is a conscious decision made rather than also running a (redundant)  service on the weekends and its meant to properly absorb those riders.

As always let me know what you think...

 

[SubwayFan3000]

My B Division Interlining Scheme is this

*Same as Today

Brighton Beach to Co-Op City

168th St to Cambria Heights-234th St

Coney Island to Co-Op City

WTC to Queens Village - Springfield Blvd

Coney Island to Floral Park - Little Neck Pkwy

Court Sq to Fort Hamilton - 92nd St

Broad St to Rosedale-Hook Creek Blvd

WTC to Rockaway Park-Beach 116th St

Canarsie-Rockaway Pkwy to Upper West Side-72nd St

Maspeth - Queens Blvd to Floral Park - 263rd st

*Same as Today or Coney Island to Little Neck - Little Neck Pkwy

Coney Island to Co-Op City

Bay Ridge-95th St to Floral Park - 263rd st

Broadway-125th St to Cambria Heights-234th St

Hanover Sq to Throgs Neck-Schurz Ave

*Same as Today or Astoria-Ditmars to Chelsea-Travis Ave (Staten Island) or College Point-14th Ave to Chelsea-Travis Ave (Staten Island)

Chambers St to Rosedale-Hook Creek Blvd

[R68OnBroadway]

9 hours ago, subwayfan1998 said:

(bunch of crap)

Your obsession with long and pointless extensions is on par with that of Wallyhorse’s and the bridge stubs...

[SubwayFan3000]

8 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

So are yours

Yours ain't better, eliminating the completely, Why Don't replaces the on Astoria while the extends to Forest Hills.

[R68OnBroadway]

1 minute ago, subwayfan1998 said:

Yours ain't better, eliminating the completely, Why Don't replaces the on Astoria while the extends to Forest Hills.

Any service that isn’t from 6th local via 63rd is a terrible idea as the  doesn’t need another merge. (Don’t even say 60th as you would have just swapped the designations and killed the ’s reliability. Eliminating the  could just be recouped by extra  s to Astoria. The  isn’t really an independent line anyways and I would probably only keep the designation to not confuse people about the short turn  s to Whitehall.

[SubwayFan3000]

1 minute ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Any service that isn’t from 6th local via 63rd is a terrible idea as the  doesn’t need another merge. (Don’t even say 60th as you would have just swapped the designations and killed the ’s reliability. Eliminating the  could just be recouped by extra  s to Astoria. The  isn’t really an independent line anyways and I would probably only keep the designation to not confuse people about the short turn  s to Whitehall.

Go to Stations like 28th Street, 23rd Street, Spring Street, 8th Street-NYU and From City Hall to Whitehall Street. running along with the , Best Idea is that to Replace the on Astoria line, to Replace on QBL.

[LGA Link N Train]

7 minutes ago, subwayfan1998 said:

Go to Stations like 28th Street, 23rd Street, Spring Street, 8th Street-NYU and From City Hall to Whitehall Street. running along with the , Best Idea is that to Replace the on Astoria line, to Replace on QBL.

The former I agree with. The latter not so much. Extending the  to QBL won’t really help in terms of reliability. First off, you’d be creating a new bottleneck by 63rd Street and making the bottleneck at 36th Street worse. Best sort term idea in terms of making service more reliable is this: 

 to 96th Street with the  

 to Astoria, short turns at Whitehall can be listed as ’s 

Add a new  Service from WTC to Forest Hills. Which will allow for the following:

 Truncated to WTC. 

 made into the 8th Avenue Express; replaces the  past Canal to Euclid. 

 Stays as is. 

 Rerouted via 63rd Street. 

An alternative would be to make the  and  the QB Locals and he  and  the QB Expresses, which would help in Maximizing capacity. 

The only downside to this proposal is the 36th Street bottleneck and a new bottleneck which would be added at 50th Street.  It these issues won’t be too big and still allow for more flexibility compared to the current system. 

[SubwayFan3000]

1 minute ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

The former I agree with. The latter not so much. Extending the  to QBL won’t really help in terms of reliability. First off, you’d be creating a new bottleneck by 63rd Street and making the bottleneck at 36th Street worse. Best sort term idea in terms of making service more reliable is this: 

 to 96th Street with the  

 to Astoria, short turns at Whitehall can be listed as ’s 

Add a new  Service from WTC to Forest Hills. Which will allow for the following:

 Truncated to WTC. 

 made into the 8th Avenue Express; replaces the  past Canal to Euclid. 

 Stays as is. 

 Rerouted via 63rd Street. 

An alternative would be to make the  and  the QB Locals and he  and  the QB Expresses, which would help in Maximizing capacity. 

The only downside to this proposal is the 36th Street bottleneck and a new bottleneck which would be added at 50th Street.  It these issues won’t be too big and still allow for more flexibility compared to the current system. 

Well that's a good idea, there are some things i prefer

extended to Cambria Heights-234th St

from WTC to to Rockaway Park-Beach 116th St via new Queensway line

extended to Queens Village - Springfield Blvd,

extended to Floral Park - Little Neck PkwyFloral Park - Little Neck Pkwy

extended to Floral Park - 263rd st

to Run Super-Express from Queensplaza to Rego Park via a New Super-Express Tunnel underneath LIRR

It will be a very good Idea for and Train to run QBL Local while the and express.

 

[R68OnBroadway]

5 minutes ago, subwayfan1998 said:

Go to Stations like 28th Street, 23rd Street, Spring Street, 8th Street-NYU and From City Hall to Whitehall Street. running along with the , Best Idea is that to Replace the on Astoria line, to Replace on QBL.

The only people who the  really benefit are the Astoria-Lower Manhattan crowd, and eliminating the  while sending the  to 96th whole the  goes to Astoria means  that you still keep direct access for those people while still providing good service for the Midtown crowd (you would also be able to boost service given the elimination of the 34th merge provided you make some switch changes at Ditmars.)

Also, I’ve seen a lot more people propose a Queens-8th exp-Brooklyn service. Would doing this be beneficial? You would eliminate the Canal merge (from what I know the Hoyt one isn’t as big as a problem), but is the 42nd merge any better? I think the best thing that would come out of it means that the  gets a good terminal (Euclid) while the lower-use services (  ) would be fine with a 20 TPH terminal given that they are also supplemented by other lines.

[RR503]

9 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

 Also, I’ve seen a lot more people propose a Queens-8th exp-Brooklyn service. Would doing this be beneficial? You would eliminate the Canal merge (from what I know the Hoyt one isn’t as big as a problem), but is the 42nd merge any better? I think the best thing that would come out of it means that the  gets a good terminal (Euclid) while the lower-use services (  ) would be fine with a 20 TPH terminal given that they are also supplemented by other lines.

I share this sentiment. If you're deinterlining elsewhere, 8th/CPW (where you're at worst adding a cross platform transfer) don't seem all that bad especially given how painful the merge at Canal/a potential 59th St-like pattern at 42 is or would be. Capacity really does get shot at merges, and if you're planning on running a service reliable enough to take Queens Boulevard to Brooklyn, you want to be damn near certain you're minimizing points of variability -- so not playing slot games at 42 seems in order. 

[bwwnyc123]

What would happen if run between 168 St and World Trade Center, and run between Jamaica Center and Euclid Av local in Brooklyn, and service stay the same?

[RR503]

4 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

What would happen if run between 168 St and World Trade Center, and run between Jamaica Center and Euclid Av local in Brooklyn, and service stay the same?

Nothing good. First remember that the  runs double the number of trains per hour during peaks that the  does, meaning that, at best, you'd have to carefully put together an unbalanced (ie run more trains from Queens in the AM/to it in the PM than you do for Brooklyn) frequency pattern to fit  and  into Cranberry, or at worst would have to short turn some  trains from Queens so that Cranberry could work. The  would also become even less reliable, what with merges introduced at Hoyt and Canal, and a longer route to boot. 

[JeremiahC99]

26 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

What would happen if run between 168 St and World Trade Center, and run between Jamaica Center and Euclid Av local in Brooklyn, and service stay the same?

This was discussed in the 2015 review of the and  lines (http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/AC_LineReview.pdf). It mentioned that having the  go into Brooklyn would introduce a high frequency merge at 42nd Street, and cause PM rush hour congestion in the northbound congestion at Hoyt-Schmerhorn due to the  needing to be more frequent than the . Furthermore, there would need to be more train cars available so that the  service to Brooklyn can continue to operate at 15 trains per hour to adequately serve riders along the Queens Blvd Line (which is already overcrowded).

[BreeddekalbL]

Would it even be feasible to route the from court Square up 21st street?

[Lex]

3 hours ago, RR503 said:

Nothing good. First remember that the  runs double the number of trains per hour during peaks that the  does, meaning that, at best, you'd have to carefully put together an unbalanced (ie run more trains from Queens in the AM/to it in the PM than you do for Brooklyn) frequency pattern to fit  and  into Cranberry, or at worst would have to short turn some  trains from Queens so that Cranberry could work. The  would also become even less reliable, what with merges introduced at Hoyt and Canal, and a longer route to boot. 

Also, even with the low number of local stations between Canal Street and 59th Street, if the crowds on the existing  trains are any indication, a reckless shift to the express tracks would create even more dangerous situations, which is only exacerbated by the psychological aspect of express/local services (where the latter is at a greater risk of being considerably emptier than the former even with virtually nonexistent savings, all because the former is considered faster).