Mayor de Blasio to Propose Streetcar Line Linking Brooklyn and Queens 0

[ttcsubwayfan]

Aside from that it would be good for NYC to institute something that we had when I lived in Italy.  Milan suffers terribly from smog and so there were days in which folks were heavily encouraged to leave their cars at home and use public transit.  They did that with a tiered system.  That's why I support that here because for those who see the car as "the thing" the subway is not going to do it.  You need something that is acceptable for those folks.  A street car that was clean and offered some sort of tiered pricing could work.

 

I believe I've heard of this being in use in London as well - congestion pricing is what it's called there, IIRC.

 

2) I don't see that happening. We would mainly see something that's in use in Toronto (one lane dedicated to vehicular traffic, the other for streetcar service).

What Toronto wishes it has.

 

Given that they quote a speed of 12 miles an hour for the streetcar, I strongly doubt we'd see it here either. A streetcar in a dedicated right of way can do at least 20 miles, if poorly designed (the Toronto St Clair right-of-way, with an overabundance of stops and no traffic priority), or upwards of 30 miles in a well designed right of way, which is what they have all across Europe.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

$2B could get you the to Springfield Blvd or the to Springfield Gardens... I think that's worth it...

 

This is still shortsighted except the extension sort of. Just make LIRR service frequent on the western nassau lines and have them all make stops in eastern queens you get more bang for the buck and can be implemented very quickly. 

to Southeast Queens would definitely help alot of people and wouldn't be that hard to implement.

Better idea boost LIRR service and freedom ticket problem solved that money can be used for the triboro RX which can increase capacity of both the metro-north and LIRR drastically and do much more than a subway extension to an area where boosted LIRR would accomplish the same thing and more.

 

RBB is fairly important; there is no good Brooklyn-Queens link (I question the value of the Queens-Bronx segment), nor is there a good crosstown option in that section of Brooklyn anyways.

 

Why should we be footing the bill for a transplant's or property developer's wet dream instead of serving the local commuters who have been paying local taxes towards the MTA since 1968?

To be fair the best thing the RBB would do is increase capacity on the queens blvd local and if done a certain way spare trains from having to deal with the mess at forest hills allowing trains to continue past onward to the rockaways. It doesn't have  to pass through rego park or the entire ROW. They can build new connections to forest hills or jamacia yard allowing direct access into the QBL switch for express trains to manhattan. After CBTC new service patterns can be considered.

[BDNQ2345]

theirs another map 

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/568d5667f92ea155a20094aa/tram6n-2-web.jpg

it have 2 Brooklyn terminals.

[paulrivera]

For all that money, I'd like to see them chip in a couple of million more to get the northern end of the line to LaGuardia...

[R10 2952]

Forget Mayor Jackass; he's just pandering to the yuppies.

[Union Tpke]

Forget Mayor Jackass; he's just pandering to the yuppies.

 

There is an election in 2017.

[m7zanr160s]

This thing mimics a bunch of subway lines. Why not use the money to buy more cars for the line, to make it full length, and increase service?

 

This is still shortsighted except the extension sort of. Just make LIRR service frequent on the western nassau lines and have them all make stops in eastern queens you get more bang for the buck and can be implemented very quickly. 

Better idea boost LIRR service and freedom ticket problem solved that money can be used for the triboro RX which can increase capacity of both the metro-north and LIRR drastically and do much more than a subway extension to an area where boosted LIRR would accomplish the same thing and more.

 

To be fair the best thing the RBB would do is increase capacity on the queens blvd local and if done a certain way spare trains from having to deal with the mess at forest hills allowing trains to continue past onward to the rockaways. It doesn't have  to pass through rego park or the entire ROW. They can build new connections to forest hills or jamacia yard allowing direct access into the QBL switch for express trains to manhattan. After CBTC new service patterns can be considered.

 

No way, bro. I live in southeast Queens, and we need that extension. No amount of LIRR service increasing will cut it. Pretty much everybody that boards a west-bound bus here is going to the subway.  Putting the subway over here will make for a bunch more travel options at a good price.

 

Eastern Brooklyn-Queens travel is not easy or fast. The RBB would be the east's better line; it would be full-length and more frequent.

[Javier]

Oh please. Instead of this streetcar crap, use the money to fund for Phase 2 of SAS, extend the to College Point, improve the , hell even get new cars for the ,

[bobtehpanda]

Here's a simple answer.

 

1) Yes. These are prosperous neighborhoods (Williamsburg, Greenpoint, etc.) the and this proposed streetcar line go through so it makes sense to improve service.

2) I don't see that happening. We would mainly see something that's in use in Toronto (one lane dedicated to vehicular traffic, the other for streetcar service).

 

Please. The hipsters can take the bus or the subway like everybody else. It would be one thing if their buses were running like water and still crowded, but that's not the case at all. We need to stop pandering to the privileged classes and start building infrastructure for real New Yorkers.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

This thing mimics a bunch of subway lines. Why not use the money to buy more cars for the line, to make it full length, and increase service?

 

 

No way, bro. I live in southeast Queens, and we need that extension. No amount of LIRR service increasing will cut it. Pretty much everybody that boards a west-bound bus here is going to the subway.  Putting the subway over here will make for a bunch more travel options at a good price. Dropping fares will do the same thing.

 

Eastern Brooklyn-Queens travel is not easy or fast. The RBB would be the east's better line; it would be full-length and more frequent.

Dude want a fast fix simple drop LIRR fares and increase service problem solved done. This way you make trips easier for those going to LI(nassau) and Manhattan and Brooklyn want the switch at jamacia for kew gardens, Forest hills and jackson heights and LIC want brooklyn you may get a one seat ride? Want penn? either way more frequent cheaper LIRR service will accomplish the same thing and even more as it serves more travel markets than the extension ever could. RBB would allow more frequent QBL local service and at the same time cut travel times. 

 

Oh please. Instead of this streetcar crap, use the money to fund for Phase 2 of SAS, extend the to College Point, improve the , hell even get new cars for the ,

OK we hear you good point. They are looking for an excuse to cut the B62.

Please. The hipsters can take the bus or the subway like everybody else. It would be one thing if their buses were running like water and still crowded, but that's not the case at all. We need to stop pandering to the privileged classes and start building infrastructure for real New Yorkers.

OK which projects would do this best?

[JerBear]

The fact that DeBlas wants to keep the MTA out of it negates any use of the money for any extension of any kind. Plus the money stuff (which I don't totally understand) is based on increased taxes on properties along the waterfront. No neighborhood is going to want extra taxes that go to pay for projects in other neighborhoods. The project is probably dead-on-arrival. But I like that this and that Councilwoman in Maspeth that wants to do the light rail is at least bringing up the issues of rights-of-way. Getting the room in the city to put down some type of transit is not a job for remaindered pieces. Two lanes carved out of 19 different streets from Astoria to wherever in Brooklyn will not give you a fast streetcar. Reducing freight on that current rail line will not get you good light rail. Piecing together a busway or a new rail line using the leftover RBL will not solve the north-south transit gap. At this point, don't we need for things to get worse (congestion, commute times, collisions) before a crisis forces a change? Without crisis is there any possibility of politicians getting serious about setting priorities that would allow for these other kinds of transit (everything between slow local buses and billion-dollar subways)?

[IAlam]

Oh please. Instead of this streetcar crap, use the money to fund for Phase 2 of SAS, extend the to College Point, improve the , hell even get new cars for the ,

Clearly do don't realize how the Flushign station was built, its not designed for an extension 

[pitchblende]

I live in Clinton Hill and so this would be really useful for me.  While the G train does run near parts of this route, it's not as close as it seems in some areas.  For instance, where this would run in Clinton Hill is a 20 min walk to the G train.  It also serves underserved areas like Red Hook and Industry City.

 

As far as why this is going to be funded versus subway improvements, it comes down to the fact that this is a city initiative where as the subway is run by the MTA, a state-run organization.  This is de Blasio trying to get some attention from Cuomo after Cuomos week of transit announcements.

 

I also agree that this needs to be at least 75% operated in it's own ROW.  I think there is room to do this in a few areas.  Park Av along the BQE has little traffic and you could easily have a ROW dedicated to a streetcar.  I think where you'll run into difficulties is downtown Brooklyn.

 

All this said, I would hope that this would become part of a network of streetcars.  As much as adding onto the subway makes more sense, it's not going to happen by de Blasio.  Hopefully, if this system proves itself, it shows that more lines would be useful.  Perhaps one to mimic the B44 down Nostrand and something along the Montauk branch of the LIRR from LIC to Jamaica.

[Union Tpke]

It will only be useful if there will be a free transfer to the subway and buses.

[MHV9218]

The fact that DeBlas wants to keep the MTA out of it negates any use of the money for any extension of any kind. Plus the money stuff (which I don't totally understand) is based on increased taxes on properties along the waterfront. No neighborhood is going to want extra taxes that go to pay for projects in other neighborhoods. The project is probably dead-on-arrival. But I like that this and that Councilwoman in Maspeth that wants to do the light rail is at least bringing up the issues of rights-of-way. Getting the room in the city to put down some type of transit is not a job for remaindered pieces. Two lanes carved out of 19 different streets from Astoria to wherever in Brooklyn will not give you a fast streetcar. Reducing freight on that current rail line will not get you good light rail. Piecing together a busway or a new rail line using the leftover RBL will not solve the north-south transit gap. At this point, don't we need for things to get worse (congestion, commute times, collisions) before a crisis forces a change? Without crisis is there any possibility of politicians getting serious about setting priorities that would allow for these other kinds of transit (everything between slow local buses and billion-dollar subways)?

 

I don't think it's DOA. There are many developers and powerful interests who see this as an important connection, just as much as regular people who need to commute see it is as possible. The tax deal is more complicated than that--it's more that the tax revenue from land value (also tied to density) will increase as the areas develop and new buildings are constructed. So it's not really extra taxation so much as a great amount of revenue coming from the same tax rate. 

 

 

 

All this said, I would hope that this would become part of a network of streetcars.  As much as adding onto the subway makes more sense, it's not going to happen by de Blasio.  Hopefully, if this system proves itself, it shows that more lines would be useful.  Perhaps one to mimic the B44 down Nostrand and something along the Montauk branch of the LIRR from LIC to Jamaica.

 

More like it's not going to happen by Cuomo. de Blasio is actually the first mayor in ages to propose a bunch of subway ideas that many ignored for years (like the Utica Ave extension), but it's not his money to play with. Unless Cuomo commits to funding--which he will never will, considering he despises downstate and continually raids the MTA for its money--nothing will be built. Pretty sad.

[Interested Rider]

This is the first time in many years that I am responding to comments on this forum.

Needless to say, I like this idea of a streetcar for many reasons as most importantly it represents a "quasi-permanent" solution. The reason that I use this phrase is that there is the big difference between rail and bus. When rail is built, it is looked upon something that will be there for many years where a bus can be there one day and gone the next day. The key to development is the permanent aspect (and I must add the tax abatement that goes along with rail being built). Look at other cities and their history as where new rail service is being constructed and goes into service and the relationship to property values.

That said, the light rail system should be built by the developers themselves as it will enhance the value of their properties. My reasoning is that if it has to have government funding, the propensity to destroy the project somewhere along the line is quite high. Private funding would be the fastest way to have the system built and in service in the least amount of time. If government will have to build it (and therefore pay for it), this project no matter how meritorious it may be, will fall victim to someone's vendetta or dislike for someone else. If not it will be some paper pusher's knowledge (which is slim or none) and he/she will write a study loaded with total fabrications that disseminates his/her hatred for light rail  to the powers that be that will destroy it completely.

What this proposal does (and especially if the developers can get behind it politically) is that once it gets built, (as pitchblende stated in his post), it opens up other routes like Montauk for possible inclusion. This will also help to destroy he "Oh! you cannot do that" mantra of the powers that be that we hear every time a meaningful suggestion is presented.

[bobtehpanda]

This is the first time in many years that I am responding to comments on this forum.

Needless to say, I like this idea of a streetcar for many reasons, most importantly, it represents a "quasi-permanent" solution. The reason that I use this phrase is that the big difference between rail and bus. When rail is built, it is looked upon something that will be there for many years where a bus can be there one day and gone the next day. The key to development is the permanent aspect (and I must add the tax abatement that goes along with rail being built). Look at other cities and their history as where new rail service is being constructed and goes into service and the relationship to property values.

That said, the light rail system should be built by the developers themselves as it will enhance the value of their properties. This would be the fastest way to have the system built and in service in the least amount of time. If government will have to build it (and therefore pay for it), this project no matter how meritorious it may be, will fall victim to someone's vendetta or dislike for someone else or some p 

 

See, this would be a valid argument, except as far as everything is concerned the development horse has already left the barn. Unless the real estate bubble pops anytime soon the waterfront is still going to be the hottest real estate around the city. There are so many more projects we could pay for with $2.5B that would actually benefit New Yorkers - a top-down station renovation is usually under $100M. That's at least 25 fully renovated stations out of the backlog.

I don't think it's DOA. There are many developers and powerful interests who see this as an important connection, just as much as regular people who need to commute see it is as possible. The tax deal is more complicated than that--it's more that the tax revenue from land value (also tied to density) will increase as the areas develop and new buildings are constructed. So it's not really extra taxation so much as a great amount of revenue coming from the same tax rate. 

 

 

 

More like it's not going to happen by Cuomo. de Blasio is actually the first mayor in ages to propose a bunch of subway ideas that many ignored for years (like the Utica Ave extension), but it's not his money to play with. Unless Cuomo commits to funding--which he will never will, considering he despises downstate and continually raids the MTA for its money--nothing will be built. Pretty sad.

 

The problem with that is that unlike with a normal TIF, there is already a lot of development happening. How much additional value could we possibly capture from anything happening after we've gone through all the legal hoops to zone a streetcar TIF?

 

Also, you don't need the state to do jack. Bloomberg proved that with the 7 Line Extension; by putting his money where his mouth was, he got a subway project done that otherwise probably would never have happened.

[Interested Rider]

Quite honestly, if the mayor is looking for either the state or the federal government to pay for it, then the project is dead. When it comes to federal funds, there is intense competition from other states and cities that are looking to do the exact same thing and do not have to deal with the perception that building anything in New York City will come in way over budget. Just look at the 2nd Avenue Subway, the LIRR connection to Grand Central, or Fulton Street and how much it is now costing (or cost) and compare it to the latest figures.

Truthfully, the money is not there, no matter how you look at it unless it comes from the private sector as we are 20 trillion dollars in debt and sooner or later, it will come due. There will be cuts in services and things like this will either have to be built by the private sector or not at all. 

If the mayor is hoping that this project will motivate the people living in the area to vote for him, he is mistaken as millenials only vote every four years (and only in presidential years, not mayoral years) and this will not be the sole criteria in determining who will receive their vote. 

.

[BronxBombers]

I feel like this streetcar should be used to serve under served areas of the city. Like some portions of Queens or the North Shore of Staten Island, which has it's own ROW so this streetcar would work perfectly for SI.

[Interested Rider]

Streetcars are far better than the nonsense known as Select Bus that the MTA and their clueless comrades in the City Transportation Department are pushing on us.The paper pushers don't have a clue as to why SBS is a joke other than there is federal money there for the stupid thing  Building a streetcar line is less costly than building a subway and if it assigned its own reserved right of way can justify its cost. Staten Island has a couple of corridors where it would prove its value in terms of saving time for its riders.

The problem remains how are we going to pay for it as the Federal Government is broke and who will want to pay for something no matter how good it will be when all they have to do is look at the four billion dollar monstrosity known as the Fulton Street project  As I said before, it will have to be funded by the private sector through tax breaks and other incentives that will help to justify the project.

[Roadcruiser1]

I rather see this turned into a light rail. You have so many nearby highways, and wide roads along this route except for the Red Hook area, but even then you can elevate it. Once you have such a system it is possible to continue to expand it, and connect it to other light rail proposals. Maybe you can even do a study to see if you can extend such a line across the Verrazano Narrows Bridge.

[Union Tpke]

I rather see this turned into a light rail. You have so many nearby highways, and wide roads along this route except for the Red Hook area, but even then you can elevate it. Once you have such a system it is possible to continue to expand it, and connect it to other light rail proposals. Maybe you can even do a study to see if you can extend such a line across the Verrazano Narrows Bridge.

 

this was compared to the HBLR, however there is a major difference. It is grade separated for most of its distance and can travel up to 50 tph, and for a good portion of the ROW runs at 20 mph. This stupid streetcar would run at an average of 11.3 mph. I agree that this should be turned into light rail if it is to be built.

[Interested Rider]

I agree that it should be light rail and once it gets built, the clamor will be for more light rail lines. This is what is happening in other cities as it an excellent alternative to building a subway or to SBS.

The use of Third Avenue and Park Avenue in Brooklyn provides the right of way where the light rail can have its private right of way as many of the streets are blocked. 

The key here is to secure the funding from non-government sources as if it involves the MTA it will be killed. I remember too many projects that had merit and should have been built but never reached that stage as someone in government hid in the shadows and killed the project when the opportunity came up.

[ttcsubwayfan]

A lot of people in this thread are acting as though 'streetcar' and 'light rail' are two completely different things.

 

Make no mistake, they aren't. Plenty of streetcar (not "LRT") systems in Europe run in private right of ways, it's all an issue of how intelligently it's designed.

[MHV9218]

this was compared to the HBLR, however there is a major difference. It is grade separated for most of its distance and can travel up to 50 tph, and for a good portion of the ROW runs at 20 mph. This stupid streetcar would run at an average of 11.3 mph. I agree that this should be turned into light rail if it is to be built.

 

That average is probably taking in major traffic and slowdowns in Downtown Brooklyn and other tight areas. No reason the Sunset Park / Williamsburg sections won't run at a much faster pace. Remember, the subway only averages 17mph, and this is far, far less expensive than a subway line.

 

Quite honestly, if the mayor is looking for either the state or the federal government to pay for it, then the project is dead.

 

He isn't. That's the whole point of the synthetic TIFs that are funding the project. The money for the project is, in some ways, a result of the project. It's a funky way to fund things, but it often works and it avoids needing to go to Albany or Washington for dollars.

 

I feel like this streetcar should be used to serve under served areas of the city. Like some portions of Queens or the North Shore of Staten Island, which has it's own ROW so this streetcar would work perfectly for SI.

 

I don't disagree that other areas need transit more (not sure about SI), but keep in mind that the only reason this is being funded is its location. It's because of the developers and development in the area that this is possible--put this in the middle of nowhere, and it has to be funded out of pocket.

 

I rather see this turned into a light rail. You have so many nearby highways, and wide roads along this route except for the Red Hook area, but even then you can elevate it. Once you have such a system it is possible to continue to expand it, and connect it to other light rail proposals. Maybe you can even do a study to see if you can extend such a line across the Verrazano Narrows Bridge.

 

If the Sunset Park portion runs at a decent speed with concrete barriers, it basically is a light rail.