Rockaway Beach Branch

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Exactly, not to mention taking the ferry is actually faster then taking the .

 

The Rockaways were one of the areas that lobbied hard for a shuttle bus, arguing it would bring more riders to the Ferry. Last I heard, the shuttle bus wasn't doing so hot, but one elected official fought to keep it running. This was pre-COVID. I have no idea if the shuttle bus is running now, but the Ferry ridership was popular, as expected there. I'm sure most people don't mind driving to it.

[Lawrence St]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The Rockaways were one of the areas that lobbied hard for a shuttle bus, arguing it would bring more riders to the Ferry. Last I heard, the shuttle bus wasn't doing so hot, but one elected official fought to keep it running. This was pre-COVID. I have no idea if the shuttle bus is running now, but the Ferry ridership was popular, as expected there. I'm sure most people don't mind driving to it.

It's still running. The reason why it doesn't do so well is because it replicates the Q22 sort of.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

It's still running. The reason why it doesn't do so well is because it replicates the Q22 sort of.

I would imagine most people just drive to the ferry though. They're not going to pay$2.75 for the local bus when the shuttle bus is free.

[Lawrence St]

36 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I would imagine most people just drive to the ferry though. They're not going to pay$2.75 for the local bus when the shuttle bus is free.

Well that free parking lot is no more.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

47 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Well that free parking lot is no more.

Well they must park somewhere then.

[Deucey]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Technically it is not a two-fare zone.

It's not like riding  to/from the Rockaways way back when, but the ferry fare then getting on a  bus or subway and paying that fare.

It's "better" than when I had to pay for the bus to the Orange yacht, then pay the $4 or whatever it was to take the NY Waterways East River Ferry to W'burg, but it's still two fares.

It should be a transfer. Damn fiefdoms and/or NYC not scouring the  subway lease and bus franchise agreement to see if there's any leverage to force a transfer acceptance or trying for a reciprocity/integration/coordination agreement...

Edited May 3, 2021 by Deucey

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 minutes ago, Deucey said:

It's not like riding  to/from the Rockaways way back when, but the ferry fare then getting on a  bus or subway and paying that fare.

It's "better" than when I had to pay for the bus to the Orange yacht, then pay the $4 or whatever it was to take the NY Waterways East River Ferry to W'burg, but it's still two fares.

It should be a transfer. Damn fiefdoms and/or NYC not scouring the  subway lease and bus franchise agreement to see if there's any leverage to force a transfer acceptance or trying for a reciprocity/integration/coordination agreement...

I just took a look at the shuttle bus... Didn't realize they had two shuttles... One from Neponsit and the other from Far Rockaway. I won't even say Breezy Point, because those people will drive if need be to the Ferry, as they like keeping their little private neighborhood off limits. 

https://www.ferry.nyc/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/NYC-Ferry-Fall-2017-Rockaway-Shuttle-Route-Schedule.pdf 

I am not sure if people from Broad Channel come down and use it, but the ferry is close enough if they want to, but it's good for the Downtown folks, as you are only paying $2.75, and the shuttle bus is free.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I just took a look at the shuttle bus... Didn't realize they had two shuttles... One from Neponsit and the other from Far Rockaway. I won't even say Breezy Point, because those people will drive if need be to the Ferry, as they like keeping their little private neighborhood off limits. 

https://www.ferry.nyc/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/NYC-Ferry-Fall-2017-Rockaway-Shuttle-Route-Schedule.pdf 

I am not sure if people from Broad Channel come down and use it, but the ferry is close enough if they want to, but it's good for the Downtown folks, as you are only paying $2.75, and the shuttle bus is free.

Back when Seastreak used to run it, the ferry went from Rockaway to 34th St via Wall St. While I found it unnecessary that they removed 34th St when operations were transferred to NYC Ferry, I could see why they did that as the crowding at 34th St during the summer would be worse then at Wall St.

The only thing I dislike about the ferry is that there's no "commuter line" during the summer, so passengers who take the RW ferry year round have to wait nearly 2 hours to board a boat during the summer.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Back when Seastreak used to run it, the ferry went from Rockaway to 34th St via Wall St. While I found it unnecessary that they removed 34th St when operations were transferred to NYC Ferry, I could see why they did that as the crowding at 34th St during the summer would be worse then at Wall St.

The only thing I dislike about the ferry is that there's no "commuter line" during the summer, so passengers who take the RW ferry year round have to wait nearly 2 hours to board a boat during the summer.

Yeah, and perhaps that will change as the City has more resources. I personally do not use the Ferry, but having been involved in the project from behind the scenes, I think it's great that these communities now have a reliable transit option, which is why more neighborhoods are clamoring for them. The people that have subway access will never get it and they don't care to get it. It is fine to have other transit options besides the subway or rail. 

[Lil 57]

16 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

It's still running. The reason why it doesn't do so well is because it replicates the Q22 sort of.

Funny thing is according to the website is tells people to take the Q22 due to low capacity. 

Quote

"Capacity on the Rockaway Weekend Shuttle Buses is significantly limited. Please take the Q22 MTA bus, which runs every 10 minutes on weekends during the day and can be picked up just two blocks south of the landing at Rockaway Beach Blvd and Beach 108th St."

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 5/1/2021 at 11:35 PM, mrsman said:

This is it, in a nutshell.  The city did buy the whole RBB.  The part south of Liberty was converted to subway standards and connected to the Fulton el along Liberty.  The northern part was still run as an LIRR shuttle that connected with the LIRR main line, until 1962.  When LIRR abandoned service, the city had the physical means, but not the monetary means or the political means to turn the Rego Park - Ozone Park section as a subway line.

It is true that such a line would have limited utility unless it was connected to some new line to take it into Manhattan.  But it is also true that by essentially abandoning it in place, they made the process of rehabilitating the line that much more expensive.  And also made it politically harder to reintroduce service on the line.

So if the city did start running a subway shuttle from 1962 on from Rego Park to Rockaway Park, with transfers available to the Far Rockaway  service, the Lefferts Blvd  service, and the  line, it would be far easier to eventually find the money and the will to connect it to the QBL main line.  The fact that they did not run any trains at all for 60 years on this stretch basically means that we will never see trains along this stretch ever again.

So while we may be upset at today's politicians for not taking up the QueensLink cause, that is a real uphill battle these days.

And there were similar battles involving the High line.  Certainly there were some transit advocates who were hoping that it could form some type of far west side transit line, perhaps an extension of  to Lower Manhattna.  But those pipe dreams were really not feasible and converting the line to the aerial park was the best choice for the high line, under the circumstances.

 

 

It is very possible that by letting the line sit dormant for so long and let nature reclaim it, the opportunity to restore train service on it has left the station. There were past proposals to reintroduce service. Many of them had to do with having a direct link to Kennedy Airport and were met with opposition, because the trains would run through their neighborhoods without stopping. That I get. But the current NIMBYism of an Andrew Hevesi or a Karen Koslowitz ("unalterably opposed" to restoration and would love for the whole LIRR to just go away) is just plain wrongheaded. It really shouldn't have to be a choice between rail and trail. They can coexist and I don't believe anyone who says they can't. However, the high costs and potential ridership would need to be addressed. It is entirely possible an  or  train running on a fully rehabbed RBB may not do much to relieve the heavy traffic and aggressive drivers on parallel Woodhaven Blvd, especially if Midtown Manhattan or LIC is not their final destination.  

On 5/1/2021 at 10:18 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

The NYCTA is the successor to the city’s Board of Transportation. Even today look at the conflict between the City and the State with regards to the Home Rule issue. Gotta remember that anything regarding transit in the downstate area is always mired in legalese. Think PATH, Airtrains, LIRR, MNRR, MABSTOA, and the Dyre line. I did discover that the northern part of the RBB was part of the line purchase ( I stand corrected) but the LIRR operated the trains under lease from the city through the NYCTA. When I was a kid my family always used Atlantic Avenue as the route between our Brooklyn and Queens relatives which is why I always saw LIRR trains leaving the Woodhaven station crossing the street toward the Ozone Park Station. I mentioned the Dyre line because technically it came about after the city took over the BMT and the IRT. making it an IND line legally. Lots of legalese involved when it involves transit in NYC. If I missed something please correct me. Carry on.

With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some legal prohibition on NYCTA running subways to adjourning areas Westchester, such as New Rochelle via the Dyre Ave line and Getty Square, Yonkers, via the NY Central's Putnam Division's Getty Square Branch. But now it's too late. Well, the MTA Bus Company, does run the BxM3 express bus to Getty Square, so there's that. Though the C in CTA stands for Chicago, not Chicagoland (the "collar" counties in Illinois and Indiana which border the City of Chicago and surrounding Cook County), and that too, was created by the Illinois state legislature, even earlier than the NYCTA was in Albany. 

[R10 2952]

All in all, I always thought the path of least resistance would have been for the LIRR to retain ownership and simply replace that wooden trestle over Jamaica Bay back in the '50s.  If they could have held out another 12 years until the state takeover, the current debacle wouldn't even exist.

[Trainmaster5]

32 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

All in all, I always thought the path of least resistance would have been for the LIRR to retain ownership and simply replace that wooden trestle over Jamaica Bay back in the '50s.  If they could have held out another 12 years until the state takeover, the current debacle wouldn't even exist.

You're entirely correct except for one reason.  Bankruptcy. I'm betting that the political reason for the purchase and the restoration of the southern portion was due to the amount of residents who were left stranded or reliant on the resulting roundabout route to jobs in the city. The residents of the northern portion had other options. Just my simplistic take.  Carry on. 

[Trainmaster5]

23 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It is very possible that by letting the line sit dormant for so long and let nature reclaim it, the opportunity to restore train service on it has left the station. There were past proposals to reintroduce service. Many of them had to do with having a direct link to Kennedy Airport and were met with opposition, because the trains would run through their neighborhoods without stopping. That I get. But the current NIMBYism of an Andrew Hevesi or a Karen Koslowitz ("unalterably opposed" to restoration and would love for the whole LIRR to just go away) is just plain wrongheaded. It really shouldn't have to be a choice between rail and trail. They can coexist and I don't believe anyone who says they can't. However, the high costs and potential ridership would need to be addressed. It is entirely possible an  or  train running on a fully rehabbed RBB may not do much to relieve the heavy traffic and aggressive drivers on parallel Woodhaven Blvd, especially if Midtown Manhattan or LIC is not their final destination.  

With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some legal prohibition on NYCTA running subways to adjourning areas Westchester, such as New Rochelle via the Dyre Ave line and Getty Square, Yonkers, via the NY Central's Putnam Division's Getty Square Branch. But now it's too late. Well, the MTA Bus Company, does run the BxM3 express bus to Getty Square, so there's that. Though the C in CTA stands for Chicago, not Chicagoland (the "collar" counties in Illinois and Indiana which border the City of Chicago and surrounding Cook County), and that too, was created by the Illinois state legislature, even earlier than the NYCTA was in Albany. 

I'm going on speculation here so bear with me. The Dyre line was purchased by the city from the bankrupt NYW&B railroad which was the orphan of the bankrupt New Haven. It was a compromise to help the city residents of the area and slow down the clamor to connect the area with the Concourse line proposed extension. Back then the Board of Estimate,  made up of the Borough Presidents, voted on those proposals. I can see the Bronx person's vote automatically. The other votes and the Mayor's?  Probably a tit for tat thing. As for New Rochelle or Yonkers?  What votes do you have that can help or hurt a NYC elected official ? Remember that reverse commuting wasn't on the radar back then. Remember also that a decade after the Dyre line purchase the LIRR was bankrupt,  too. City purchased a segment within the city limits . I never read anything about purchasing a segment from Queens to Mineola or Babylon. I'm guessing that it was because the residents of those places were not voters in NYC ,  reverse commuting was still minimal,  and there was probably some legal restrictions on such things. This is beside the fact that the outer boroughs were losing service,  not gaining,  over that time span. Until the creation of what is now the MTA passenger rail transportation in the area was the province of private (bankrupt) companies. Just my thoughts. Carry on. 

 

[LGA Link N Train]

http://thequeenslink.org/the-report/

[BreeddekalbL]

12 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

http://thequeenslink.org/the-report/

Thank goodness a sense of vindication, I was saying you can get it done for at least 4 billion

[T J Trainman]

I hope it gets started eventually.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

19 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Thank goodness a sense of vindication, I was saying you can get it done for at least 4 billion

Even though I have mixed feelings about restoring service, I definitely believe the $8.1 billion figure was a bullshit answer given by the MTA to shut up everyone in favor of restoring train service on the branch.

[Lawrence St]

The price was inflated because they were trying to build a new elevated structure over the existing ROW instead of just using the ROW. and the city can use "eminent domain" I think it's called to take back any part of the ROW that was illegally obtained by homeowners and businesses.

The only issue is whats going to serve the new line. You can't use the or because one will have to reduce TPH in order to allow the other to increase, which also affects the and . 

[Lex]

37 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The price was inflated because they were trying to build a new elevated structure over the existing ROW instead of just using the ROW. and the city can use "eminent domain" I think it's called to take back any part of the ROW that was illegally obtained by homeowners and businesses.

The only issue is whats going to serve the new line. You can't use the or because one will have to reduce TPH in order to allow the other to increase, which also affects the and . 

Feed it into Grand Central and radically redesign the zones.

[Trainmaster5]

46 minutes ago, Lex said:

Feed it into Grand Central and radically redesign the zones.

Are you suggesting giving the branch back to the LIRR ? just curious. Carry on.

[Lawrence St]

54 minutes ago, Lex said:

Feed it into Grand Central and radically redesign the zones.

That'd be a waste IMO. Unless you expect LIRR to re-convert the entire RBB back to Railroad specifications, it's a waste of money.

[Lex]

20 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Are you suggesting giving the branch back to the LIRR ? just curious. Carry on.

Well, everything north of Liberty Avenue and part of the ROW from there down to Howard Beach. As you might imagine, it would be part of a package of changes involving the railroads.

 

14 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

That'd be a waste IMO. Unless you expect LIRR to re-convert the entire RBB back to Railroad specifications, it's a waste of money.

Because it wouldn't be part of the subway? As far as I'm concerned, any chance it had at being integrated into QBL operations sailed years ago, meaning it would need a new alignment.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

18 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The price was inflated because they were trying to build a new elevated structure over the existing ROW instead of just using the ROW. and the city can use "eminent domain" I think it's called to take back any part of the ROW that was illegally obtained by homeowners and businesses.

The only issue is whats going to serve the new line. You can't use the or because one will have to reduce TPH in order to allow the other to increase, which also affects the and . 

I don’t see why you can’t use the  or  with my preference being a truncated  (at Whitehall, with City Hall lower as a secondary terminal for whatever Whitehall can’t turn). The other local service would be still able to turn at 71st-Continental. Why would tph need to be reduced? If anything, both locals might be able to get a slight boost in service since they’ll no longer both be turning at 71st. Yes, 71st and 67th would be losing a service, but let’s be honest. At 71st, the overwhelming majority of riders are crowding onto the  and , so having just the  or  as the local there would likely not be a huge loss. 67th would really be the only station significantly affected because it would only have the  or  stopping there with the other service being rerouted onto the branch. 67th Ave (my home station from 2012-15) is one of the lowest ridership stations on the QBL, so even there it really shouldn’t be a dealbreaker to only have one train service stopping there.

16 hours ago, Lex said:

Well, everything north of Liberty Avenue and part of the ROW from there down to Howard Beach. As you might imagine, it would be part of a package of changes involving the railroads.

 

Because it wouldn't be part of the subway? As far as I'm concerned, any chance it had at being integrated into QBL operations sailed years ago, meaning it would need a new alignment.

I can guarantee you LIRR won’t go for this. It’s bad enough we’re trying to get them to run more service in Queens and all we’re getting is foot-dragging from them. I just can’t see how they’d want this branch back. Even if it went from Howard Beach straight into Kennedy Airport, that benefits riders from Manhattan far more than LIRR riders from Nassau/Suffolk who would have to ride much farther west than Jamaica in order to catch a JFK-bound train at a hypothetical station in Rego Park. And might even have to change trains in Jamaica first before changing for the JFK LIRR train. The current AirTrain would be way more convenient than having to do all that.

The connection from the ROW to the QBL would be made just east of the 63rd Drive station, then turn south onto 66th Avenue or 65th Road. The only new alignment that would be needed is a portal for the ROW so the new line can clear the LIRR Main Line and the apartment buildings along those two streets. Then it would join the subway using the existing turnouts.

[LGA Link N Train]

18 hours ago, Lex said:

Well, everything north of Liberty Avenue and part of the ROW from there down to Howard Beach. As you might imagine, it would be part of a package of changes involving the railroads.

Because it wouldn't be part of the subway? As far as I'm concerned, any chance it had at being integrated into QBL operations sailed years ago, meaning it would need a new alignment.

I don't mind the idea of re-zoning the fares for the LIRR. A city Zone fare of $2.75 would do wonders for LIRR Ridership IMO. However, I'm going to disagree with you on your latter statement as the QBL-RBB Alignment is still possible when the Bellmouths are present. Not to mention, with that, Roosevelt being congested as is and the Queens Bus Redesign being a thing, it'd be a good justification to convert Woodhaven Blvd into an Express Station. 

21 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The price was inflated because they were trying to build a new elevated structure over the existing ROW instead of just using the ROW. and the city can use "eminent domain" I think it's called to take back any part of the ROW that was illegally obtained by homeowners and businesses.

The only issue is whats going to serve the new line. You can't use the or because one will have to reduce TPH in order to allow the other to increase, which also affects the and . 

Personally, I'd have the serve RBB and have its service to be increased to 24/7 service throughout its whole route. (If you want to be extra, you could throw the / tunnel swap along with a few other system route changes into the mix) The complicated part though would be the G.O.'s, but given the system's flexibility, I think that can be worked around. Although our G.O. procedures need to be rethought so that work can be done more effectively, that's a different discussion for a different day.