Systemwide CBTC - Planning and Implementation

[Kamen Rider]

47 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

the  can't be complete due to Stillwell Av Terminal sharing platform space with non CBTC train routes and potential reroutes. So until Broadway gets CBTC rolling  stock, Stillwell Av will remain with standard signals

with the exception of two PM Ds that terminate on the Culver platform and then run lite to Broadway Lafayette, there really isn't any mixing of trains on the Culver platforms at Stillwell. It's not like how B put-ins have to run through the N and Q platforms to get to Brighton Beach. 

 

What's more, complex interlockings like Stillwell will retain their physical signals even under CBTC.

[LGA Link N Train]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

It probably just makes sense to complete the lines where there is already CBTC equipment, and try and minimize the amount of other lines and rolling stock that need to be upgraded as well. The only new trunk lines that get dragged into the current schedule would be and . and are getting 211s. And these lines should probably get them anyways so that they can continue to operate GOs where CBTC is active.

Thats true hence why I personally believe that CPW, Concourse and the Rockaway Lines should all get priority for CBTC Installation. And to answer your question in your other post, yes. The IND do have the oldest Signals in the system. 

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

the  can't be complete due to Stillwell Av Terminal sharing platform space with non CBTC train routes and potential reroutes. So until Broadway gets CBTC rolling  stock, Stillwell Av will remain with standard signals

I wouldn’t be surprised if  has something in mind to do all of Stillwell at once. Although the interesting question would be how would they deal with Stillwell Terminal?

[zacster]

I don't think Rockaway would ever need CBTC, at least not over the other busy lines.  CPW should have it since it is high speed, or at least should be.  Concourse maybe.

[LGA Link N Train]

50 minutes ago, zacster said:

I don't think Rockaway would ever need CBTC, at least not over the other busy lines.  CPW should have it since it is high speed, or at least should be.  Concourse maybe.

True, but given that 8th Avenue and Fulton are getting Upgraded, and the fact that CPW should have it, might as well finish the whole  line at that point.

[bobtehpanda]

CBTC is basically *the* modern standard at this point, there's not much reason to arbitrarily have not busy lines without it.

[RTOMan]

14 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

the  can't be complete due to Stillwell Av Terminal sharing platform space with non CBTC train routes and potential reroutes. So until Broadway gets CBTC rolling  stock, Stillwell Av will remain with standard signals

Its just a non reporting train and its only two or three of them they space them out so they don't get in our way..

New tracks are laid out from Ave U to  Just south of West 8th..

[RTOMan]

Oh BTW they got a GO  on the  at Parsons Hillside the switches are being redone and its very interesting..

They got all kinds of stuff they putting in not just switches I'm guessing this is also part of the Queens Blvd East Section.

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, RTOMan said:

Oh BTW they got a GO  on the  at Parsons Hillside the switches are being redone and its very interesting..

They got all kinds of stuff they putting in not just switches I'm guessing this is also part of the Queens Blvd East Section.

That’s probably why the  trips to 179 St are cancelled this month, since those trains use the express tracks along Hillside Av

[darkstar8983]

11 hours ago, LGA Link N Train said:

True, but given that 8th Avenue and Fulton are getting Upgraded, and the fact that CPW should have it, might as well finish the whole  line at that point.

It’s boggled my mind as to why Central Park West wasn’t considered when it was announced that 6 Av was moved up over Lexington and Astoria/59 St. In the reverse peak direction (uptown  in the morning and downtown in the afternoon), trains back up so much that the local trains overtake the express, especially due to the large number of  trains scheduled during those hours and in that direction. The  runs 17 TPH and the  runs 10 TPH, which is really pushing the limits of fixed block signaling. What makes it worse is that at 9AM, the  stops serving Concourse in the AM, terminating at 145 St, sometimes causing  trains to go around the  by using the express tracks. Even a soft breeze can cause a big mess on Central Park West during rush hours.
 

you also have the issue of the 59 St Merge. Uptown, if the  and  (or  and ) arrive at the interlocking at the same time, one train is delayed while the other passes through, delaying all trains behind it, regardless of the route. It’s similar to the DeKalb interlocking right before the Manhattan Bridge, but worse since none of the lines run even headways ( the  and  run the closest to even headways, but that’s it).

 

as for CBTC territories that need to be implemented in the B division, we need at a minimum due to capacity constraints.

-  168 St to Euclid Av

-  - full route

-  - Bedford Park Blvd (or 145 St) to 36 St/4 Av

-  - full route

-  - full route (or at least Kew Gardens to Avenue X)

 - full route (not necessarily due to signal constraints but due to the crosstown line being trapped between two CBTC zones

-  - Myrtle Av to Chambers St

-  - 71 Av to Myrtle Av Broadway

-  - Astoria-Ditmars Blvd (or Queensboro Plaza) to 59 St/4 Av

-  - 96 St to Brighton Beach

-  - full route (or at least 71 Av to 59 St/4 Av)

 

[LGA Link N Train]

6 hours ago, RTOMan said:

Oh BTW they got a GO  on the  at Parsons Hillside the switches are being redone and its very interesting..

They got all kinds of stuff they putting in not just switches I'm guessing this is also part of the Queens Blvd East Section.

Sounds like Parsons/Hillside could potentially become a Hub of some sorts. Wouldn’t be surprised if they already set up new Equipment in certain rooms. 

[zacster]

17 hours ago, LGA Link N Train said:

True, but given that 8th Avenue and Fulton are getting Upgraded, and the fact that CPW should have it, might as well finish the whole  line at that point.

It isn't that it should never have, just other parts should be a higher priority.  CPW, 207th and 205th should get higher priority.  And Broadway BMT too.  It doesn't sound like the BMT is even being planned.

[darkstar8983]

4 hours ago, zacster said:

It isn't that it should never have, just other parts should be a higher priority.  CPW, 207th and 205th should get higher priority.  And Broadway BMT too.  It doesn't sound like the BMT is even being planned.

The BMT was being planned but got pushed back because 6th Av was moved up. Broadway/Astoria and Brighton were supposed to be by 2025-2029 capital plan. and yes, I think all CBD zones and high-train traffic routes need to be upgraded before the tail ends of the lines are completed. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by darkstar8983

[LGA Link N Train]

6 hours ago, zacster said:

It isn't that it should never have, just other parts should be a higher priority.  CPW, 207th and 205th should get higher priority.  And Broadway BMT too.  It doesn't sound like the BMT is even being planned.

Oh okay, I see what you’re saying now. 
 

In regards to BMT Broadway being planned, it along with Astoria are still a part of the Fast Forward Plan IIRC along with every other Trunk Line in the CBD. 

[RTOMan]

On 4/7/2023 at 10:04 AM, darkstar8983 said:

That’s probably why the  trips to 179 St are cancelled this month, since those trains use the express tracks along Hillside Av

Yep now the GO is Over they using the tracks again...

[Kamen Rider]

Saw it this morning. They turned what had been a a full Diamond X-over into a single cross over, with the turnouts facing againts the normal direction of traffic.

[LGA Link N Train]

16 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

Saw it this morning. They turned what had been a a full Diamond X-over into a single cross over, with the turnouts facing againts the normal direction of traffic.

By Parsons or 169?

[Kamen Rider]

Between the two, at the Parsons end

[RTOMan]

23 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

Saw it this morning. They turned what had been a a full Diamond X-over into a single cross over, with the turnouts facing againts the normal direction of traffic.

Less switches to move less chance of that Zone controller acting outta pocket.

[Kamen Rider]

I mean, having been on the corridor at least two days a week for past two to three months, I was under the impression the Zone Controller doing its job as advertised was the exception, not the norm. 

[RTOMan]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:44 PM, Kamen Rider said:

I mean, having been on the corridor at least two days a week for past two to three months, I was under the impression the Zone Controller doing its job as advertised was the exception, not the norm. 

At least twice a week there's issues...

Mostly in the 53rd street Queens plaza zone..

CTL Zone is also starting to glitch here and there...

*Stares at X1222 Homesignal  just north of CTL on D4  track with no MAL as it stays at danger...

[darkstar8983]

hearing all these issues in the QB CBTC territory makes me wonder "why didn't the MTA do full closures of QB in zones along the 4-track segment?" could a lack of full-track access have led to these constant glitches. I mean the  CBTC system is pretty reliable (except from 2013-2018 between Lorimer St and Union Square due to the flooding of the 14 Street Tunnel following Hurricane Sandy). The same goes for the  line CBTC system (always going down, especially in the two-track section between Queensboro Plaza and 34 St-Hudson Yards), especially since GOs along the line can only be done from November to April. Full closures could have been done in the Queensboro Plaza to 74 St-Broadway Zone, or north of 74 St towards Flushing-Main St. If it weren't for the oversight of contractors on the Culver CBTC project, the Culver Line would be ready to go already, due to thee fact that the Culver Line did full shutdowns south of Church Av anytime CBTC work was being done, and consistently for 2-3 years.

 

Going forward, I recommend the following service reroutes for CBTC work:

8 Av CBTC

No between 59 St-Columbus Circle and Jay St-MetroTech

 trains rerouted via the  between 59 St and Jay St-MetroTech, making local stops on 6 Av. (In extreme cases, if the  is out and the  really cannot run, or if the 63 St tunnel connector is not available for rerouted trains, use the  as a replacement on Central Park West

 trains rerouted via the  from 5 Av-53 St (or Roosevelt Av if the 53 St tunnel is also being worked on) to West 4 St, then via the  to 2 Av. If the  needs to run  to/from 6 Av due to  train work, reroute the  via the  to/from Whitehall St.

 

6 Av CBTC

No  trains between Lexington Av-63 St / 59 St-Columbus Circle and Jay St-MetroTech / DeKalb Av

 trains run from 205 St to 59 St-Columbus Circle, then via the  express to Jay St-MetroTech, then via the  to/from Stillwell Av

 trains run from Jamaica-179 St to Lexington Av-63 St, then via the  express to 36 St/4 Av (Broadway/4 Av Express and Manhattan Bridge, then via the  to/from Stillwell Av. * trains rerouted via Lower Manhattan and 4 Av Local.

 

Central Park West CBTC

**Assuming the downtown express track can use reverse signaling.

 trains uptown run express using the downtown express track from 59 St-Columbus Circle to 125 St (upper level tracks are closed). The reverse setup cannot be done due to lack of proper switches at 59 St-Columbus Circle. Downtown trains run local from 125 St to 59 St-Columbus Circle. Otherwise use the following changes:

 trains run only from 59 St-Columbus Circle to Lefferts Blvd (local in Manhattan and Brooklyn) or Far Rockaway (Local in Manhattan, Express in Brooklyn). Use  train for Washington Heights Stations -  trains local in Manhattan between Times Sq-42 St and 96 St if ridership is too high.

 trains suspended

 trains run only from Stillwell Av to 59 St-Columbus Circle. Use  train for Bronx Stations

 

 

Queens Blvd East CBTC

No  trains east of 71 Av.  trains all terminate at 71 Av, or terminate  at Queens Plaza and run  local in both directions in Queens. For less invasive work, suspend either Archer Av branch or Hillside Av Branch and reroute  trains to open branch.

 

Broadway CBTC

No trains between Queensboro Plaza and DeKalb Av - Use similar reroutes as been seen during Broadway Fastrack

 trains run in 2 sections:

1. Astoria-Ditmars Blvd to Queensboro Plaza (or shuttle buses for Astoria stations)

2. Stillwell Av to Court St via Local

trains rerouted via 6 Av in both directions. Late night  trains run shuttle express service from Atlantic Av-Barclays Center to Bay Ridge-95 St (or run it local between Court St and Bay Ridge-95 St).

 

For less invasive work: No trains between 34 St-Herald Square and DeKalb Av. - Same reroutes as above, except Astoria  section runs from 34 St-Herald Sq to Ditmars Blvd (skips 49 St uptown). If there is limited Manhattan Bridge capacity on the north side tracks, then reroute  as follows:

 train would run in 2 sections: 

1. 71 Av to 34 St-Herald Square (bypasses 49 St uptown)

2. Bay Ridge-95 St to Court St

* stays on 6 Av during these GOs. 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by darkstar8983

[Kamen Rider]

could you not make assumptions about the issues we're facing if you're not privy to the information?

 

It has nothing to do whether there were four tracks worked on at a time or one. Also, tell people you're going to do long term shutdowns of Manhattan trunk lines and see how well that goes over with them.

[Chris89292]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:04 PM, Kamen Rider said:

could you not make assumptions about the issues we're facing if you're not privy to the information?

 

It has nothing to do whether there were four tracks worked on at a time or one. Also, tell people you're going to do long term shutdowns of Manhattan trunk lines and see how well that goes over with them.

I blame the contractors for not addressing the issue, they can’t tell us why this is happening constantly on the QBL, the MTA should be much stricter with them  

[RTOMan]

On 4/23/2023 at 7:07 PM, darkstar8983 said:

hearing all these issues in the QB CBTC territory makes me wonder "why didn't the MTA do full closures of QB in zones along the 4-track segment?" could a lack of full-track access have led to these constant glitches. I mean the  CBTC system is pretty reliable (except from 2013-2018 between Lorimer St and Union Square due to the flooding of the 14 Street Tunnel following Hurricane Sandy). The same goes for the  line CBTC system (always going down, especially in the two-track section between Queensboro Plaza and 34 St-Hudson Yards), especially since GOs along the line can only be done from November to April. Full closures could have been done in the Queensboro Plaza to 74 St-Broadway Zone, or north of 74 St towards Flushing-Main St. If it weren't for the oversight of contractors on the Culver CBTC project, the Culver Line would be ready to go already, due to thee fact that the Culver Line did full shutdowns south of Church Av anytime CBTC work was being done, and consistently for 2-3 years.

 

Going forward, I recommend the following service reroutes for CBTC work:

8 Av CBTC

No between 59 St-Columbus Circle and Jay St-MetroTech

 trains rerouted via the  between 59 St and Jay St-MetroTech, making local stops on 6 Av. (In extreme cases, if the  is out and the  really cannot run, or if the 63 St tunnel connector is not available for rerouted trains, use the  as a replacement on Central Park West

 trains rerouted via the  from 5 Av-53 St (or Roosevelt Av if the 53 St tunnel is also being worked on) to West 4 St, then via the  to 2 Av. If the  needs to run  to/from 6 Av due to  train work, reroute the  via the  to/from Whitehall St.

 

6 Av CBTC

No  trains between Lexington Av-63 St / 59 St-Columbus Circle and Jay St-MetroTech / DeKalb Av

 trains run from 205 St to 59 St-Columbus Circle, then via the  express to Jay St-MetroTech, then via the  to/from Stillwell Av

 trains run from Jamaica-179 St to Lexington Av-63 St, then via the  express to 36 St/4 Av (Broadway/4 Av Express and Manhattan Bridge, then via the  to/from Stillwell Av. * trains rerouted via Lower Manhattan and 4 Av Local.

 

Central Park West CBTC

**Assuming the downtown express track can use reverse signaling.

 trains uptown run express using the downtown express track from 59 St-Columbus Circle to 125 St (upper level tracks are closed). The reverse setup cannot be done due to lack of proper switches at 59 St-Columbus Circle. Downtown trains run local from 125 St to 59 St-Columbus Circle. Otherwise use the following changes:

 trains run only from 59 St-Columbus Circle to Lefferts Blvd (local in Manhattan and Brooklyn) or Far Rockaway (Local in Manhattan, Express in Brooklyn). Use  train for Washington Heights Stations -  trains local in Manhattan between Times Sq-42 St and 96 St if ridership is too high.

 trains suspended

 trains run only from Stillwell Av to 59 St-Columbus Circle. Use  train for Bronx Stations

 

 

Queens Blvd East CBTC

No  trains east of 71 Av.  trains all terminate at 71 Av, or terminate  at Queens Plaza and run  local in both directions in Queens. For less invasive work, suspend either Archer Av branch or Hillside Av Branch and reroute  trains to open branch.

 

Broadway CBTC

No trains between Queensboro Plaza and DeKalb Av - Use similar reroutes as been seen during Broadway Fastrack

 trains run in 2 sections:

1. Astoria-Ditmars Blvd to Queensboro Plaza (or shuttle buses for Astoria stations)

2. Stillwell Av to Court St via Local

trains rerouted via 6 Av in both directions. Late night  trains run shuttle express service from Atlantic Av-Barclays Center to Bay Ridge-95 St (or run it local between Court St and Bay Ridge-95 St).

 

For less invasive work: No trains between 34 St-Herald Square and DeKalb Av. - Same reroutes as above, except Astoria  section runs from 34 St-Herald Sq to Ditmars Blvd (skips 49 St uptown). If there is limited Manhattan Bridge capacity on the north side tracks, then reroute  as follows:

 train would run in 2 sections: 

1. 71 Av to 34 St-Herald Square (bypasses 49 St uptown)

2. Bay Ridge-95 St to Court St

* stays on 6 Av during these GOs. 

 

 

How's about a big NO to any of those ideas?

Fun fact i DO know a Supt who is involved with some of that insanity you proposed and CM got shut down with some similar ideas...

BTW Broadway isn't seeing CBTC any time soon.. Thanks.

[RTOMan]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:53 AM, Chris89292 said:

I blame the contractors for not addressing the issue, they can’t tell us why this is happening constantly on the QBL, the MTA should be much stricter with them  

Has nothing to do with the Contractors its what was ordered and what really was needed...

No way They should be having Zone Controller issues like this...

Yet i only work here i don't make the decisions.

Edited May 1, 2023 by RTOMan