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Systemwide CBTC - Planning and Implementation

Union Tpke

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4 via Mosholu

4 via Mosholu

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, RTOMan said:

They talking ATO in effect only on the E, come to find out the E and F fleets run different versions of CBTC..

How is that possible on the Queens Boulevard Express? I thought they were supposed to be equipped with only the Thales CBTC from Flushing.

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Trainmaster5 Motorman (Retired)

Trainmaster5

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, RTOMan said:

They are survey marking the tracks East of Kew...

Not sure when but there will be Full Shut downs past CTL on the Weekends, which they will start running cables and dropping down transponders and switch work at Parsons Hillside and 169.

Trains are already Localized at 179 meaning the folks at the CBTC area at RCC can see the trains in that station.

They talking ATO in effect only on the Echo, come to find out the Echo and Fox Fleets run different versions of CBTC..

That’s par for the course with those in charge. I pointed out in another thread about the R211 fleet that we were told that the rollout would take 25+ years. The joke was that the software would be obsolete by then meaning that the project would never end. Those of us in the IRT were told that our ATS system was an overlay of the CBTC project and CBTC would come to us, too. From my vantage point the system appears to be for the IND exclusively with the BMT testbeds on the (7) and the (L) the exception. Before the other folks try to correct my BMT statement I’m guessing that only you and a few other people know that the (7) has no connection to the IRT either back in the Command Center days or the RCC of today. Their radio frequency is B1 , same as the (Q) and the Franklin shuttle. Thanks for the update. Be safe.

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RTOMan Train Operator

RTOMan

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

How is that possible on the Queens Boulevard Express? I thought they were supposed to be equipped with only the Thales CBTC from Flushing.

GOs have been out with them doing ATO testing on the Echo on the Midnights so they figured something out..

Echos and Foxes Run different versions of CBTC Software as i found out..

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RTOMan Train Operator

RTOMan

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

That’s par for the course with those in charge. I pointed out in another thread about the R211 fleet that we were told that the rollout would take 25+ years. The joke was that the software would be obsolete by then meaning that the project would never end. Those of us in the IRT were told that our ATS system was an overlay of the CBTC project and CBTC would come to us, too. From my vantage point the system appears to be for the IND exclusively with the BMT testbeds on the (7) and the (L) the exception. Before the other folks try to correct my BMT statement I’m guessing that only you and a few other people know that the (7) has no connection to the IRT either back in the Command Center days or the RCC of today. Their radio frequency is B1 , same as the (Q) and the Franklin shuttle. Thanks for the update. Be safe.

It just amuses me now basically i don't  lose sleep over what they do...

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Eric B Train Operator

Eric B

Posted
Posted
On 5/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, RTOMan said:

They are survey marking the tracks East of Kew...

Not sure when but there will be Full Shut downs past CTL on the Weekends, which they will start running cables and dropping down transponders and switch work at Parsons Hillside and 169.

Trains are already Localized at 179 meaning the folks at the CBTC area at RCC can see the trains in that station.

They have CBTC set up at that one station, isolated from the rest of the system (not installed between there and Kew yet)?

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Fresh Pond

Fresh Pond

Posted
Posted
On 6/15/2022 at 9:17 AM, RTOMan said:

More ATO testing this time on the Midnights In Queens Next week..

They also doing CBTC Test trains in Brooklyn along the Culver Line...

New Signals are in at the Ave X interlocking both directions....

My TSS instructor is not too happy about that flashing red nonsense lol

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Vulturious

Vulturious

Posted
Posted

https://new.mta.info/document/91711
https://new.mta.info/document/91716

- 6th Avenue CBTC (B)(D)(F)(M) has been added to the 2020-2024 Capital Plan   
- The above goes in line with the reason the (B) and (D) would become 100% NTT as a direct result of the R211 order
- Express Tracks to/from 47th-50th Streets-Rockerfeller Center
- Local Tracks to/from 21st Street Queensbridge to Jay Street-MetroTech
- Fulton Street CBTC has been expanded from Jay Street-MetroTech to High Street
- This is to ensure the interlocking north of Jay Street is fully CBTC
- Astoria and Lexington Avenue CBTC projects have been dropped from the 2020-2024 Capital Plan
- Lexington Avenue CBTC was dropped due to the R262 order not being awarded yet
- An amendment was made to the R262 order that only the Base Order will be funded through the 2020-2024 Capital Plan
- Both Option Order R262's would be funded through the 2025-2029 Capital Plan
- Apparently the future Electric Bus Order for OA/TA has fluctuated from 375 down to 355, and now bumped up to 370
- The 713 Standard Buses are as follows (155 CNG's/210 Hybrid's/348 Diesel Buses)

There is definitely a lot more, someone is currently looking at more of this in the meantime which I will share here when they do. 

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T to Dyre Avenue

T to Dyre Avenue

Posted
Posted (edited)

Oh thank goodness they came to their senses and put 6th Ave CBTC in the 2020-24 budget! Without it, the (B) and (D) trains would be dead in the water if 6th Ave shits the bed. Likewise, I’m glad they’re deferring Astoria and Lex. Because, if they were to do Lex without doing 7th right after, then the (2) and (3) trains would likely suffer the same fate as the (B) and (D) if 7th Ave were to shit the bed. And doing Astoria without doing the main Broadway Line seemed just pointless, unless the MTA were planning to put narrow-bodied trains back on the Astoria Line for the first time since 1948 and run them into Manhattan via the (7). But it wouldn’t make very much sense to do that.

What’s interesting is that they’re now looking again at the possibility of retrofitting existing cars to operate with modernized signaling, which they previously ruled out when they began modernizing the signaling system on the (7) line, which sent its R62A trains back to the (6) line.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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darkstar8983

darkstar8983

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Oh thank goodness they came to their senses and put 6th Ave CBTC in the 2020-24 budget! Without it, the (B) and (D) trains would be dead in the water if 6th Ave shits the bed. Likewise, I’m glad they’re deferring Astoria and Lex. Because, if they were to do Lex without doing 7th right after, then the (2) and (3) trains would likely suffer the same fate as the (B) and (D) if 7th Ave were to shit the bed. And doing Astoria without doing the main Broadway Line seemed just pointless, unless the MTA were planning to put narrow-bodied trains back on the Astoria Line for the first time since 1948 and run them into Manhattan via the (7). But it wouldn’t make very much sense to do that.

What’s interesting is that they’re now looking again at the possibility of retrofitting existing cars to operate with modernized signaling, which they previously ruled out when they began modernizing the signaling system on the (7) line, which sent its R62A trains back to the (6) line.

Actually all they did now is shift the issue to Broadway. If Broadway shits the bed (as you say), the (R) can get rerouted via 6 Av, but the (N)(Q)(W) (assuming the (W) is still running in the future) will be f**ked. And with the (N)(Q) trains stuck unable to go into Manhattan due to no other lines being able to accommodate the SMEE cars, trains will get stuck in Brooklyn (Prospect Park for the (B)(Q) and at either 36 St or Atlantic Av Barclays Center for the (D)(N)). And yes, Lexington has to be done in tandem with 7 Av, but in my opinion, Broadway and 6th Av should have been done simultaneously, order enough R211 cars to just finish off all the old cars to prevent this catastrophe. Its one thing when there's only one trunk line where SMEE cars cannot run on (Queens Blvd), but its something else when now the SMEE cars CAN ONLY RUN on one trunk line (in this case, Broadway), because the NTT cars can run in fixed-block territory, but SMEEs cannot run in CBTC territory. And if the older cars are retrofitted with modernized signaling, then might as well keep the R68s on the (B)(D), shift R160s from Jamaica to Coney Island, and give Jamaica / Pitkin / 207 St the R211s for the (A)(C)(E)(F).

Edited by darkstar8983
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LGA Link N Train

LGA Link N Train

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

Actually all they did now is shift the issue to Broadway. If Broadway shits the bed (as you say), the (R) can get rerouted via 6 Av, but the (N)(Q)(W) (assuming the (W) is still running in the future) will be f**ked. And with the (N)(Q) trains stuck unable to go into Manhattan due to no other lines being able to accommodate the SMEE cars, trains will get stuck in Brooklyn (Prospect Park for the (B)(Q) and at either 36 St or Atlantic Av Barclays Center for the (D)(N)). And yes, Lexington has to be done in tandem with 7 Av, but in my opinion, Broadway and 6th Av should have been done simultaneously, order enough R211 cars to just finish off all the old cars to prevent this catastrophe. Its one thing when there's only one trunk line where SMEE cars cannot run on (Queens Blvd), but its something else when now the SMEE cars CAN ONLY RUN on one trunk line (in this case, Broadway), because the NTT cars can run in fixed-block territory, but SMEEs cannot run in CBTC territory. And if the older cars are retrofitted with modernized signaling, then might as well keep the R68s on the (B)(D), shift R160s from Jamaica to Coney Island, and give Jamaica / Pitkin / 207 St the R211s for the (A)(C)(E)(F).

That’s a good point but by the time 6th Avenue CBTC comes online, we’ll likely have both Option orders for the R-211 fleet. Which would mean that half of the 68/68A fleet would be spending a majority of their time in the yard… 

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Around the Horn

Around the Horn

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Actually all they did now is shift the issue to Broadway. If Broadway shits the bed (as you say), the (R) can get rerouted via 6 Av, but the (N)(Q)(W) (assuming the (W) is still running in the future) will be f**ked. And with the (N)(Q) trains stuck unable to go into Manhattan due to no other lines being able to accommodate the SMEE cars, trains will get stuck in Brooklyn (Prospect Park for the (B)(Q) and at either 36 St or Atlantic Av Barclays Center for the (D)(N)). And yes, Lexington has to be done in tandem with 7 Av, but in my opinion, Broadway and 6th Av should have been done simultaneously, order enough R211 cars to just finish off all the old cars to prevent this catastrophe. Its one thing when there's only one trunk line where SMEE cars cannot run on (Queens Blvd), but its something else when now the SMEE cars CAN ONLY RUN on one trunk line (in this case, Broadway), because the NTT cars can run in fixed-block territory, but SMEEs cannot run in CBTC territory. And if the older cars are retrofitted with modernized signaling, then might as well keep the R68s on the (B)(D), shift R160s from Jamaica to Coney Island, and give Jamaica / Pitkin / 207 St the R211s for the (A)(C)(E)(F).

They're referring to the R142/As as "older cars" in that document.

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Around the Horn

Around the Horn

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Daniel The Cool said:

Actually the R142/R142As were already planned on being CBTC Compatible for the Lexington Avenue CBTC when that project was announced a few years ago.

 

Yes that's correct. They never actually got around to drafting specs for that work due to the pandemic.

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darkstar8983

darkstar8983

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Yes that's correct. They never actually got around to drafting specs for that work due to the pandemic.

at least for the R142As there’s precedent that 380/600

cars were already retrofitted for CBTC on the (7). I forget if the cars had to be shipped off for CBTC retrofit or if the conversion can be done in-house. I do remember that the car swap between the (6) and (7) couldn’t start until the factory fresh R188s were all on the (7) to give the (7) a spare factor while it’s cars were transferred to the (6). It was particularly rough swapping cars from the main line to the (7) and vice versa due to the swap having to take place overnight and the move involving the train going as follows:

1. Corona Yard to Hunters Point Av

2. Hunters point Av to Queensboro Plaza then switch over on the Astoria line and park on the Astoria Express track @ 39 Av

3. Then run down the (N) line to Atlantic Av Barclays Center

4. then run via the (D) line via the Manhattan Bridge to concourse yard.
5. Then move down Jerome Av to 86 St on the Lexington Av Line,

6. then back up Pelham

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R32 3838

R32 3838

Posted
Posted
On 7/25/2022 at 10:19 PM, darkstar8983 said:

Actually all they did now is shift the issue to Broadway. If Broadway shits the bed (as you say), the (R) can get rerouted via 6 Av, but the (N)(Q)(W) (assuming the (W) is still running in the future) will be f**ked. And with the (N)(Q) trains stuck unable to go into Manhattan due to no other lines being able to accommodate the SMEE cars, trains will get stuck in Brooklyn (Prospect Park for the (B)(Q) and at either 36 St or Atlantic Av Barclays Center for the (D)(N)). And yes, Lexington has to be done in tandem with 7 Av, but in my opinion, Broadway and 6th Av should have been done simultaneously, order enough R211 cars to just finish off all the old cars to prevent this catastrophe. Its one thing when there's only one trunk line where SMEE cars cannot run on (Queens Blvd), but its something else when now the SMEE cars CAN ONLY RUN on one trunk line (in this case, Broadway), because the NTT cars can run in fixed-block territory, but SMEEs cannot run in CBTC territory. And if the older cars are retrofitted with modernized signaling, then might as well keep the R68s on the (B)(D), shift R160s from Jamaica to Coney Island, and give Jamaica / Pitkin / 207 St the R211s for the (A)(C)(E)(F).

 

You saying all of this bullshit because you want techs on the (N)(W), Stop it.

 

They can turn trains around at Jay St (R) and at Atlantic ave.  

 

And SMEEs can Run on CBTC lines since the block signals will still be there, It's just less signals and more apart.

 

6th ave is being done because they will have the oldest signals in the system by the time CBTC work would start since they are IND original signals.

On 7/26/2022 at 2:58 AM, Daniel The Cool said:

Actually the R142/R142As were already planned on being CBTC Compatible for the Lexington Avenue CBTC when that project was announced a few years ago.

 

 

With Lexington ave CBTC being delayed, Those R142s might retire instead of being converted either half or the whole fleet.

 

 

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trainfan22

trainfan22

Posted
Posted (edited)

They are not gonna retire the R142s this soon, they would rebuild them to be CBTC compatible before they would retire them. The R262 order would need to be like 2,000 cars to replace the R62/62A and R142s. No way the TA orders a fleet that large.  

Edited by trainfan22
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darkstar8983

darkstar8983

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

You saying all of this bullshit because you want techs on the (N)(W), Stop it.

 

They can turn trains around at Jay St (R) and at Atlantic ave.  

 

And SMEEs can Run on CBTC lines since the block signals will still be there, It's just less signals and more apart.

 

6th ave is being done because they will have the oldest signals in the system by the time CBTC work would start since they are IND original signals.

 

With Lexington ave CBTC being delayed, Those R142s might retire instead of being converted either half or the whole fleet.

 

 

To answer your comments since it is clear you LOVE to hate on me and annoy me to no end.

1. The (N) should have never lost its tech trains. Ubers are getting expensive when it rains and now have to come up with a winter contingency plan to get around since it will be too cold to bike or wait on subway platforms waiting for what might be a one-off R160 that may show up on the (N) . I am purposely saying this explicitly just to annoy you this time. 

2. You saying that SMEEs trains CAN run in CBTC territory but just that the signals are super far apart is like saying they can’t run in those territories because then it will be a huge detriment to the lines that normally run on those lines because now they have to be careful to not strike a SMEE train that might not get detected by the signal system. I don’t know about this comment 100% regarding the provisions for non CBTC trains running in these areas.

3. Turning trains around midway in Brooklyn is like sticking a giant middle finger up at them saying “oh well, that’s what you get for living along the (N)(Q) or any like that runs alongside it. Also don’t forget about the UES people. You’d have to close 2 Av stations whenever there’s the tiniest hiccup because you’d cut off their access to midtown and really anywhere when there’s a problem.

4. I’m not saying DONT do 6th Av. I’m saying - might as well do the whole B division central business district in one go and get it over with, because you’re going to screw certain riders (clearly you don’t like people that live along 2 Av, Brighton, 4 Av, or Astoria)

5. It might be the case that the R142s might retire, it might not be. And similar to how I suggested just doing the whole B division in one fell swoop, when it comes to Lexington Av, might as well do 7th Av Express right away due to the issues @ Roger’s Av Junction, unless you propose dropping the (3) and(5) train or de-interlining to the point that Livonia loses 7th Av service and Nostrand loses Lexington Av service

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