Systemwide CBTC - Planning and Implementation

[R32 3838]

5 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

They are not gonna retire the R142s this soon, they would rebuild them to be CBTC compatible before they would retire them. The R262 order would need to be like 2,000 cars to replace the R62/62A and R142s. No way the TA orders a fleet that large.  

They can retire them with a separate order, Why waste millions of dollars on converting those cars when by the time they do those cars they will be at retirement age. It took the TA a whole decade to get those cars right and to be reliable. There is over 1,000 of them on top of that. Converting them to CBTC will be a big pain in the ass since they weren't built with CBTC in mind like the R143 fleet and above which imo is a dumb oversight by MTA. If they want the R142s to last they would have to totally rebuild them from the ground up which again would cost money.

 

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

To answer your comments since it is clear you LOVE to hate on me and annoy me to no end.

1. The  should have never lost its tech trains. Ubers are getting expensive when it rains and now have to come up with a winter contingency plan to get around since it will be too cold to bike or wait on subway platforms waiting for what might be a one-off R160 that may show up on the  . I am purposely saying this explicitly just to annoy you this time. 

2. You saying that SMEEs trains CAN run in CBTC territory but just that the signals are super far apart is like saying they can’t run in those territories because then it will be a huge detriment to the lines that normally run on those lines because now they have to be careful to not strike a SMEE train that might not get detected by the signal system. I don’t know about this comment 100% regarding the provisions for non CBTC trains running in these areas.

3. Turning trains around midway in Brooklyn is like sticking a giant middle finger up at them saying “oh well, that’s what you get for living along the  or any like that runs alongside it. Also don’t forget about the UES people. You’d have to close 2 Av stations whenever there’s the tiniest hiccup because you’d cut off their access to midtown and really anywhere when there’s a problem.

4. I’m not saying DONT do 6th Av. I’m saying - might as well do the whole B division central business district in one go and get it over with, because you’re going to screw certain riders (clearly you don’t like people that live along 2 Av, Brighton, 4 Av, or Astoria)

5. It might be the case that the R142s might retire, it might not be. And similar to how I suggested just doing the whole B division in one fell swoop, when it comes to Lexington Av, might as well do 7th Av Express right away due to the issues @ Roger’s Av Junction, unless you propose dropping the  and train or de-interlining to the point that Livonia loses 7th Av service and Nostrand loses Lexington Av service

All this is just copium at this point. I can't take you seriously after the first point.

[zacster]

While Broadway may be a problem, it isn't as bad as you are all making it out to be.  The line is 4 tracks, so it is unlikely but still possible that all traffic is blocked.  QB and 2nd Ave have alternates, but may not be used by non-CBTC trains.  Astoria has no alternate anyway.  So that only leaves the Q train as not being able to run through assuming it doesn't have CBTC equipment.  If Broadway is completely blocked the N/W aren't going anywhere.  From the other direction you have the N being screwed no matter what, the R can run through on 6th Ave.  And again, the Q needs to go through.  But this only matters if BOTH tracks are blocked in either direction.  That leaves catastrophes like a water main break, which screws everything, a derailment that fouls both tracks, although it would likely need to stop anyway, or a crime like a shooting where they stop everything anyway.  A simple mechanical problem on a train, the most likely source of a blockage, won't stop the line from running on one track, slow as it may be.  If it is a short term issue too, they can always reroute a 6th Ave train to/from 96th St to fill the gap.  And the 7 train will get crowded. 

 

And if it looks to be longer term, put some CBTC trains on the Q for the day and run them on 6th Ave, or discontinue the B to BPB and run it to 96th/2nd instead.  They cancel the B at the drop of a hat now, so that could just be the contingency. Instead of cancelling the B, cancel the Q and let the B fill in.

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, zacster said:

While Broadway may be a problem, it isn't as bad as you are all making it out to be.  The line is 4 tracks, so it is unlikely but still possible that all traffic is blocked.  QB and 2nd Ave have alternates, but may not be used by non-CBTC trains.  Astoria has no alternate anyway.  So that only leaves the Q train as not being able to run through assuming it doesn't have CBTC equipment.  If Broadway is completely blocked the N/W aren't going anywhere.  From the other direction you have the N being screwed no matter what, the R can run through on 6th Ave.  And again, the Q needs to go through.  But this only matters if BOTH tracks are blocked in either direction.  That leaves catastrophes like a water main break, which screws everything, a derailment that fouls both tracks, although it would likely need to stop anyway, or a crime like a shooting where they stop everything anyway.  A simple mechanical problem on a train, the most likely source of a blockage, won't stop the line from running on one track, slow as it may be.  If it is a short term issue too, they can always reroute a 6th Ave train to/from 96th St to fill the gap.  And the 7 train will get crowded. 

 

And if it looks to be longer term, put some CBTC trains on the Q for the day and run them on 6th Ave, or discontinue the B to BPB and run it to 96th/2nd instead.  They cancel the B at the drop of a hat now, so that could just be the contingency. Instead of cancelling the B, cancel the Q and let the B fill in.

Glad I wasn't the only one that was thinking the same exact thing, especially this last bit of cancelling the  in place of the . Weekend GO's would be pretty easy where the  can easily run the 's fleet as well as late night or they can just run the  and cut . We'll see how the MTA tackles this when the time comes.

[RTOMan]

Was told ATO along the Corridor is supposed to go in effect this fall starting on the Midnights..

[ABOGbrooklyn]

How much will CBTC actually fix DeKalb Junction? Without de-interlining.

[Vulturious]

3 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

How much will CBTC actually fix DeKalb Junction? Without de-interlining.

Probably not by much. We still have to account for trains still most likely having to go at slow speeds regardless. 

[ABOGbrooklyn]

2 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Probably not by much. We still have to account for trains still most likely having to go at slow speeds regardless. 

Why will there still be slow speeds if CBTC is installed?

[Vulturious]

22 minutes ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

Why will there still be slow speeds if CBTC is installed?

Have you ever ridden any line going through Dekalb junction? Even when a train was completely free to continue on through with switches set and whatnot, they still ran pretty slow because of the tight corners, especially going through a switch. 

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Have you ever ridden any line going through Dekalb junction? Even when a train was completely free to continue on through with switches set and whatnot, they still ran pretty slow because of the tight corners, especially going through a switch. 

Then there's the f*cking Manhattan Bridge...

[trainfan22]

4 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

Why will there still be slow speeds if CBTC is installed?

Safety reasons I'd imagine. S/B Q trains can speed from DeKalb junction to the station (I've been on trains that went though this stretch at speed) . S/B D trains MIGHT get sped up from the junction until it has to slow down for the curve south of DeKalb station. 

 

 

As for the bridge, going downhill, I'd imagine it would be similar to the train between Atlantic and Shutter Ave, downhill it will be somewhat slow.

[ABOGbrooklyn]

9 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Safety reasons I'd imagine. S/B Q trains can speed from DeKalb junction to the station (I've been on trains that went though this stretch at speed) . S/B D trains MIGHT get sped up from the junction until it has to slow down for the curve south of DeKalb station. 

 

 

As for the bridge, going downhill, I'd imagine it would be similar to the train between Atlantic and Shutter Ave, downhill it will be somewhat slow.

I don't mind if it will have to slow down after the curb after DeKalb.. it's the section between The Manhattan Bridge and DeKalb that's the worst.. slow and stops and literally the worst.. might as well take the thru Montague at that point

[darkstar8983]

8 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

I don't mind if it will have to slow down after the curb after DeKalb.. it's the section between The Manhattan Bridge and DeKalb that's the worst.. slow and stops and literally the worst.. might as well take the thru Montague at that point

oh no. The  train curves between DeKalb Av and Court St, and the one between Cortlandt St and Canal St would make you consider the bridge again 

Edited August 17, 2022 by darkstar8983

[CenSin]

If I remember my rides from the ‘90s correctly, the plowed right over the switches at the junction coming off the Manhattan Bridge. That means with CBTC, the might possibly regain that lost speed (minus the safety margin for Broadway trains coming down the other side of the bridge).

I’ve been on trains going northbound that went pretty fast from Atlantic Avenue to DeKalb Avenue. CBTC would probably allow that to happen across the board skilled T.O. or not.

[darkstar8983]

2 hours ago, CenSin said:

If I remember my rides from the ‘90s correctly, the plowed right over the switches at the junction coming off the Manhattan Bridge. That means with CBTC, the might possibly regain that lost speed (minus the safety margin for Broadway trains coming down the other side of the bridge).

I’ve been on trains going northbound that went pretty fast from Atlantic Avenue to DeKalb Avenue. CBTC would probably allow that to happen across the board skilled T.O. or not.

Part of the likely reason why the  (6 Av) ran quickly over switches just like the  to the Brighton Line was because there was no Broadway merge (same in 2001-2004 when the  ran on the south side). Hopefully with that full merge the DeKalb interlocking can be improved to identify which train is which

[zacster]

Nothing they do will truly speed up the merges/curves at and around Dekalb Ave.  But at least the rest will be faster.  And if they eliminate the stop at Gold St the trains could run straight through or paced so they don't have to necessarily stop.

I rode Queens Boulevard yesterday for the first time since CBTC went on and it was impressive how fast they run there, but there aren't any tight curves since it was built to IND standards.  It reminded me of how it was on CPW in the past.  Only the turnouts to Archer and Queensbridge were slow and even that wasn't bad.  If you were coming from Airtrain, the E to Manhattan was truly fast.  Unless you are going to Penn it is a better choice than the LIRR since it has direct transfers.  I'm curious about how fast it would be in the AM rush going in or PM going out.

Edited August 19, 2022 by zacster

[RandomRider0101]

On 7/27/2022 at 4:36 PM, trainfan22 said:

They are not gonna retire the R142s this soon, they would rebuild them to be CBTC compatible before they would retire them. The R262 order would need to be like 2,000 cars to replace the R62/62A and R142s. No way the TA orders a fleet that large.  

 

On 7/27/2022 at 10:36 PM, R32 3838 said:

They can retire them with a separate order, Why waste millions of dollars on converting those cars when by the time they do those cars they will be at retirement age. It took the TA a whole decade to get those cars right and to be reliable. There is over 1,000 of them on top of that. Converting them to CBTC will be a big pain in the ass since they weren't built with CBTC in mind like the R143 fleet and above which imo is a dumb oversight by MTA. If they want the R142s to last they would have to totally rebuild them from the ground up which again would cost money.

If they could rebuild 380 R142As for CBTC, what's to stop them from doing the same with the remaining 220 R142As & the 1,000+ R142s? Yes it would cost more since these cars weren't built with CBTC in mind and it's alot of cars to rebuild, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. The R142/A rebuilds would take place concurrently with the R262 delivery. The R142/As are easier to rebuild with CBTC than the R62/As, which would cost so much that it makes sense to just replace them with brand-new cars (R262s). The R62/As are approaching their nominal life span anyway, so it goes hand in hand.

On 7/27/2022 at 9:08 PM, darkstar8983 said:

It might be the case that the R142s might retire, it might not be. And similar to how I suggested just doing the whole B division in one fell swoop, when it comes to Lexington Av, might as well do 7th Av Express right away due to the issues @ Roger’s Av Junction, unless you propose dropping the  and train or de-interlining to the point that Livonia loses 7th Av service and Nostrand loses Lexington Av service

As already stated above, the R142s are not retiring anytime soon in the immediate future. They still have much more life left in them and are easier to equip for CBTC than the R62/As. They did it with R142As 7211-7590, they can/will do the same with 7591-7810 & the R142s 6301-7180 & 1101-1250. The A-division will be 100% new tech by then anyway, so 7th Ave CBTC won't be far behind Lex CBTC. 

Also the R211s are NOT replacing any R68/As. People keep suggesting that this could happen, but the only way that will be is if the  decides to reduce the fleet size, which would basically bring us back to square one in regards to this 'car shortage' issue.

[RTOMan]

On 8/19/2022 at 12:29 PM, zacster said:

Nothing they do will truly speed up the merges/curves at and around Dekalb Ave.  But at least the rest will be faster.  And if they eliminate the stop at Gold St the trains could run straight through or paced so they don't have to necessarily stop.

I rode Queens Boulevard yesterday for the first time since CBTC went on and it was impressive how fast they run there, but there aren't any tight curves since it was built to IND standards.  It reminded me of how it was on CPW in the past.  Only the turnouts to Archer and Queensbridge were slow and even that wasn't bad.  If you were coming from Airtrain, the E to Manhattan was truly fast.  Unless you are going to Penn it is a better choice than the LIRR since it has direct transfers.  I'm curious about how fast it would be in the AM rush going in or PM going out.

PM Rush trains move(unless there's a train in BYPASS Out there then forget it).

Wait till ATO comes online trains will move even faster...

[darkstar8983]

On 8/31/2022 at 10:25 AM, RTOMan said:

PM Rush trains move(unless there's a train in BYPASS Out there then forget it).

Wait till ATO comes online trains will move even faster...

I'm not sure what the rules are, but aren't CBTC operators supposed to operate ONE of their daily trips through CBTC territory in bypass mode? I would assume that AM and PM rush hours, there are the usual slowdowns near stations because of how close the  run together.

[Vulturious]

Not mine, but this was yesterday, I'm guessing because local tracks aren't running CBTC yet which meant they can get away with it I guess. Would this mean that the  next year won't be running any new tech when the Queensboro rehabilitation starts?

Edited September 1, 2022 by Vulturious

[LGA Link N Train]

4 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Not mine, but this was yesterday, I'm guessing because local tracks aren't running CBTC yet which meant they can get away with it I guess. Would this mean that the  next year won't be running any new tech when the Queensboro rehabilitation starts?

QB Local runs on CBTC mode active so its interesting to see how this got through

[trainfan22]

The garbage train which uses SMEE cars run on QB, even after the CBTC conversion... So I'm sure the system can handle an occasional non CBTC train traveling on the line.

Edited September 2, 2022 by trainfan22

[RTOMan]

20 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

I'm not sure what the rules are, but aren't CBTC operators supposed to operate ONE of their daily trips through CBTC territory in bypass mode? I would assume that AM and PM rush hours, there are the usual slowdowns near stations because of how close the  run together.

Unless the train is tagged in BYPASS no CBTC mode only...

[RTOMan]

15 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Not mine, but this was yesterday, I'm guessing because local tracks aren't running CBTC yet which meant they can get away with it I guess. Would this mean that the  next year won't be running any new tech when the Queensboro rehabilitation starts?

Prob Schoolcar wasn't a revenue train.. No R46s in Queens...

Unless this is a Old Pic.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

On 8/31/2022 at 10:25 AM, RTOMan said:

PM Rush trains move(unless there's a train in BYPASS Out there then forget it).

Wait till ATO comes online trains will move even faster...

Will ATO help with the trains crawling thru Queens Plaza?

The trains in both directions take longer to platform compared to pre CBTC , especially if the home signals at the ends of the platforms are red. Even more so for the n/b coming out of the 11 st cut, way worse with CBTC than the old timers/wheel detectors.

Also feels like speed limits were reduces on the n/b local between Queens Plaza and 46th...

Otherwise I agree the line as a whole moves better during the rush

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by RestrictOnTheHanger

[RTOMan]

1 hour ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

Will ATO help with the trains crawling thru Queens Plaza?

The trains in both directions take longer to platform compared to pre CBTC , especially if the home signals at the ends of the platforms are red. Even more so for the n/b coming out of the 11 st cut, way worse with CBTC than the old timers/wheel detectors.

Also feels like speed limits were reduces on the n/b local between Queens Plaza and 46th...

Otherwise I agree the line as a whole moves better during the rush

 

When i was on the Larry ATO was way different that ATPM Mode so I'm guessing if they used the same concept yes...