Systemwide CBTC - Planning and Implementation

[bulk88]

On 12/31/2022 at 2:46 PM, N6 Limited said:

Ok, I was wondering because I've had experiences In the evening, where it’s quicker to backtrack from Woodhaven Blvd to Roosevelt to catch  the  or  to Jamaica than to take the local to 71st and transfer there. I could only imagine the frustration of those that live at the last 2-3 local stations.

https://goodservice.io/stations/G08 check the OTP of northbound locals. Continental is pretty good at double ending nowadays so hobos don't the delay relay.

[N6 Limited]

15 hours ago, bulk88 said:

https://goodservice.io/stations/G08 check the OTP of northbound locals. Continental is pretty good at double ending nowadays so hobos don't the delay relay.

Thanks, I will have to monitor during the evening rush.

[LexAveExp5]

https://www.amny.com/transit/service-changes-seven-subway-mta-starts-installing-modern-signaling-ace/
 

So I read this article and I understand this first week is gonna be all crazy. But after this, do you think they will just send the Es up the F line and suspend the Ms early from Essex St to Forest Hills every night like they did pre L shutdown for Queens Blvd CBTC?

[RTOMan]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:28 PM, LexAveExp5 said:

https://www.amny.com/transit/service-changes-seven-subway-mta-starts-installing-modern-signaling-ace/
 

So I read this article and I understand this first week is gonna be all crazy. But after this, do you think they will just send the Es up the F line and suspend the Ms early from Essex St to Forest Hills every night like they did pre L shutdown for Queens Blvd CBTC?

Only from Feb 21- 24th they will do this...

Six total intervals will go via 8th ave....

3 AM SB Fox Intervals will be sent 8th ave....

The 0721, 0809 and the 0817...

Same number for the PM Rush NB..

1606 STL ,1631 KHY, 1655 KHY

[darkstar8983]

22 hours ago, RTOMan said:

Only from Feb 21- 24th they will do this...

Six total intervals will go via 8th ave....

3 AM SB Fox Intervals will be sent 8th ave....

The 0721, 0809 and the 0817...

Same number for the PM Rush NB..

1606 STL ,1631 KHY, 1655 KHY

I think you mean via 53 St. The 8 Av connection via 53 St is closed. So trains have to run via 53 St (or 63 St) to 6 Av, unless something happens and then the  via Crosstown and the  via 59 St/Broadway

[RTOMan]

5 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

I think you mean via 53 St. The 8 Av connection via 53 St is closed. So trains have to run via 53 St (or 63 St) to 6 Av, unless something happens and then the  via Crosstown and the  via 59 St/Broadway

Yes 53rd…. My mistake…

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

QBL East CBTC is ramping up, there's a press release that starting 3/17:

71 Ave bound trains will terminate at Queens Plaza after 930PM, no change to Brooklyn bound service

Jamaica bound and trains will run local after 930PM

Brooklyn bound trains run local starting at 1045PM. No change to local WTC bound service 

No mention of service changes. 

Apparently this is because of the loss of layup space East of 71 Ave

 

[darkstar8983]

3 hours ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

QBL East CBTC is ramping up, there's a press release that starting 3/17:

71 Ave bound trains will terminate at Queens Plaza after 930PM, no change to Brooklyn bound service

Jamaica bound and trains will run local after 930PM

Brooklyn bound trains run local starting at 1045PM. No change to local WTC bound service 

No mention of service changes. 

Apparently this is because of the loss of layup space East of 71 Ave

 

Does this mean that more  trips will need to deadhead from City Hall lower level or Coney Island Yard? Likely, those  trains will need to lay up at Coney Island Yard then come back early AM before the morning rush to start service, unless the MTA plans to start Manhattan bound  service from 71 Av later, at around 7AM, to allow the first thru-trip  from Bay Ridge-95 St to 71 Av to make the trip

Edited March 4, 2023 by darkstar8983

[Around the Horn]

3 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Does this mean that more  trips will need to deadhead from City Hall lower level or Coney Island Yard? Likely, those  trains will need to lay up at Coney Island Yard then come back early AM before the morning rush to start service, unless the MTA plans to start Manhattan bound  service from 71 Av later, at around 7AM, to allow the first thru-trip  from Bay Ridge-95 St to 71 Av to make the trip

They're going to have the same number of overnight layups; they're just going to be between Queens Plaza and Forest Hills instead of between Forest Hills and 169 Street because those tracks will be a part of the QBL East project.

[darkstar8983]

12 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

They're going to have the same number of overnight layups; they're just going to be between Queens Plaza and Forest Hills instead of between Forest Hills and 169 Street because those tracks will be a part of the QBL East project.

Ohhh understood. The trains will just start laying up there, and likely those trains will need to move first at the start of the next rush hour to allow the  express service towards Jamaica to resume by 6AM.

[Kamen Rider]

Except that doesn't always work, even now. the first E that currently runs express the length of the Queens Corridor from Manhattan is the 7:00 World Trade Center departure... it and the trains after it are often sent local after Forest Hills because the layups are behind schedule entering service. 

[darkstar8983]

25 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

Except that doesn't always work, even now. the first E that currently runs express the length of the Queens Corridor from Manhattan is the 7:00 World Trade Center departure... it and the trains after it are often sent local after Forest Hills because the layups are behind schedule entering service. 

Interesting. I always assumed that because of how h the schedule is written, the express starts with a 5:40ish departure from World Trade Center that arrives at Queens Plaza around 6AM, to compliment the first  train to arrive in Queens around that time, even though the trip is local east of 71 Av  until about 7:30-8AM

[Kamen Rider]

0700 WTC to parsons is the first Jamaica bound express that runs the full corridor. the first Jamaica bound train to run express at all is the 0553 WTC, but that only runs express from Queens Plaza to Forest Hills. 

 

I have been working on the corridor and heard the 0700 and its followers being routed onto the local and making local stops because the express track still has layups on it waiting to go. 

[N6 Limited]

On 3/3/2023 at 5:37 PM, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

71 Ave bound trains will terminate at Queens Plaza after 930PM, no change to Brooklyn bound service

Oh, NOW they want to terminate  trains at Queens Plaza when there’s  all local service.

[darkstar8983]

19 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Oh, NOW they want to terminate  trains at Queens Plaza when there’s  all local service.

yeah, a previous  post says its to lay up the overnight trains between Queens Plaza and 71 Av instead of between 71 Av and 179 St, so since the  already doesn't run overnight, that's the service to go

[N6 Limited]

2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

yeah, a previous  post says its to lay up the overnight trains between Queens Plaza and 71 Av instead of between 71 Av and 179 St, so since the  already doesn't run overnight, that's the service to go

That’s fine, but it was frustrating during the first phase of CBTC installation where they’d run the  local while all 3 lines were running local.

Not only were trains already delayed due to slow speed orders, the orders led to congestion with three trains running local, and THEN then they’d have  trains blocking “northbound”  and  trains while fumigating at 71st Ave, and “Southbound”  and  trains blocked by trains at 71st Ave dwelling before their run.

So NOW they want to turn trains at Queens Plaza after making every excuse possible the last time.

[darkstar8983]

23 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

That’s fine, but it was frustrating during the first phase of CBTC installation where they’d run the  local while all 3 lines were running local.

Not only were trains already delayed due to slow speed orders, the orders led to congestion with three trains running local, and THEN then they’d have  trains blocking “northbound”  and  trains while fumigating at 71st Ave, and “Southbound”  and  trains blocked by trains at 71st Ave dwelling before their run.

So NOW they want to turn trains at Queens Plaza after making every excuse possible the last time.

Several comments about this new "permanent GO" 

1. This will probably be written into the final schedule for the next spring pick (June 2023) since its supposed to be for 3 years.

2. Yes I think it was silly that the  trains end at 71 Av and delaying the  during those "express-to-local or local-to-express" GOs. Manhattan-bound, why cant the  just enter the station from the lay-up track right at the departure time, pick up the operator and conductor, then be on its way, so it doesn't delay the . 71 Av-bound, during those GO's they should have more fumigation crews available at 71 Av. I don't recommend extending the  to/from 179 St since that would cost MANY more train crews to operate, and lead to further unreliability along the line, making it a 2 hour local route (excluding flagging).

3. I think as a way to accelerate the CBTC implementation timeline in QB East, they should just suspend weekend and late night and  service east of 71 Av permanently, make the three services  all local (or the express  service can be retained if no other GOs are in effect), or if thats too much fumigation , end the  at Queens Plaza or Times Sq-42 St., with the  fully local west of 71 Av. Then as the project winds down, alternate shutting down either the Hillside Av  corridor or the Archer Av  corridor, and run both the  via the open corridor.

4. In previous instances of the  being cut back to Queens Plaza, the trains turned around using a center track between the two 53 St tunnel tracks, which delays the  and  trains in both directions since the trains have to go from the local track (60 St connector tracks) over the express tracks to access D5 (I think its called), then cross back over the express track west of Queens Plaza to access the Broadway Line. This track may not be always accessible, and now with the new GO, that D5 track won't be used, trains will just lay up on the express track, since no equipment will be turned back towards Manhattan. The reason this express track was chosen to store the  trains is likely because if the other track were used (Manhattan-bound), Jamaica-bound express service could run overnight like it does now, but Manhattan-bound express service would have to end at 10:30PM, and wouldn't be able to start up again until after 7:30AM while all the stored trains are removed from the manhattan-bound express  track, moved to a specific pocket track, then reversed towards Jamaica on the Jamaica-bound express track, now also interfering with the Jamaica express service too.

Edited March 7, 2023 by darkstar8983

[RTOMan]

On 3/3/2023 at 5:37 PM, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

QBL East CBTC is ramping up, there's a press release that starting 3/17:

71 Ave bound trains will terminate at Queens Plaza after 930PM, no change to Brooklyn bound service

Jamaica bound and trains will run local after 930PM

Brooklyn bound trains run local starting at 1045PM. No change to local WTC bound service 

No mention of service changes. 

Apparently this is because of the loss of layup space East of 71 Ave

 

I believe its only 12 trains...Supplement isn't out yet so I'm not sure if it affects my last half from STL..

[RTOMan]

Next Pick looks like the omeo is gonna be the Money Line....

Maybe Ill pick it...

Nah ill stay on the ox...

[LGA Link N Train]

I made a CBTC Progression chart for each subway line by track mileage if anyone is interested: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rJ6Pm3XYACHCyMT-WdW8PSEiLuGckFw4rCb_xNtySqo/edit?usp=share_link

[RTOMan]

So far this Long Term GO is going ok trains are getting cleaned out and laid up with no issue and they are sticking to the first local (2151Fox arrival at 21st).

[LGA Link N Train]

A thought occured to me while thinking about CBTC in relation to the R-211's.

With Culver and 8th Avenue nearly Wrapping Up and going online in the near future, and QBL East on the way, it not only makes a lot of sense as to why Fulton, Crosstown and 6th Avenue were chosen, but at that point, a good portion of the IND will already be CBTC Active by the time the 211 order is finished. Since the IND Rockaway Line was planned under Fast Forward, Installing CBTC there, along with the Concourse, CPW and IND Archer Avenue Branch (over 7th, Lex, Astoria and Broadway) would not only ensure the  and would be complete (the being 1 stop short of being complete), but would also ensure that the IND would be fully automated. Maybe that could make CBTC Installation easier for the rest of the system.

[bobtehpanda]

On 4/4/2023 at 7:17 PM, LGA Link N Train said:

A thought occured to me while thinking about CBTC in relation to the R-211's.

With Culver and 8th Avenue nearly Wrapping Up and going online in the near future, and QBL East on the way, it not only makes a lot of sense as to why Fulton, Crosstown and 6th Avenue were chosen, but at that point, a good portion of the IND will already be CBTC Active by the time the 211 order is finished. Since the IND Rockaway Line was planned under Fast Forward, Installing CBTC there, along with the Concourse, CPW and IND Archer Avenue Branch (over 7th, Lex, Astoria and Broadway) would not only ensure the  and would be complete (the being 1 stop short of being complete), but would also ensure that the IND would be fully automated. Maybe that could make CBTC Installation easier for the rest of the system.

It probably just makes sense to complete the lines where there is already CBTC equipment, and try and minimize the amount of other lines and rolling stock that need to be upgraded as well. The only new trunk lines that get dragged into the current schedule would be and . and are getting 211s. And these lines should probably get them anyways so that they can continue to operate GOs where CBTC is active.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

Also IIRC the IND currently has some of the oldest signals anyways, right?

[darkstar8983]

On 4/4/2023 at 10:17 PM, LGA Link N Train said:

A thought occured to me while thinking about CBTC in relation to the R-211's.

With Culver and 8th Avenue nearly Wrapping Up and going online in the near future, and QBL East on the way, it not only makes a lot of sense as to why Fulton, Crosstown and 6th Avenue were chosen, but at that point, a good portion of the IND will already be CBTC Active by the time the 211 order is finished. Since the IND Rockaway Line was planned under Fast Forward, Installing CBTC there, along with the Concourse, CPW and IND Archer Avenue Branch (over 7th, Lex, Astoria and Broadway) would not only ensure the  and would be complete (the being 1 stop short of being complete), but would also ensure that the IND would be fully automated. Maybe that could make CBTC Installation easier for the rest of the system.

the  can't be complete due to Stillwell Av Terminal sharing platform space with non CBTC train routes and potential reroutes. So until Broadway gets CBTC rolling  stock, Stillwell Av will remain with standard signals