Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[Brillant93]

6 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Do you personally know people who live on Avenue P who are planning on protesting the route? This is what irks me, when people assume automatically that community board members are automatically NIMBYs who oppose transit improvements. For example, I've been to meetings for all 3 Staten Island community boards (and as everybody knows, Staten Island is overall the most car-oriented borough), and I've never had any problems suggesting bus routes down new streets.

Avenue P is a wide street, and it does see its fair share of traffic, so it's not the first street you move to if you're seeking peace and quiet. West 6th Street maybe slightly less so, but it's still not some random side street. On top of that, Avenue P between McDonald Avenue & Ocean Parkway has its own little commercial district which would likely welcome bus service, and in any case, there's still a high population density (between the apartment buildings and single-family houses, you have a lot of people who might actually welcome having the bus run closer to them).

I believe non of us know every person who lives on avenue P. But it quite a no brainer to not just throw a route on there without outreach. The B82 sbs had outreach but all of a sudden people like to forget. On top of that taking an express/limited/sbs off of a street would hurt those who need a direct connection. “They could walk” tell that to someone old or disabled. 

[BrooklynBus]

8 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

You can't just blindly say that "SBS doesn't work" or even that "SBS does work". In some particular cases, it does work, in some particular cases it doesn't work, and in some cases, some features work, and some features don't. For example, overall, the Bx41 & S79 SBS routes were a success (especially since the Bx41 also involved realigning the lanes in certain areas to provide more capacity through certain bottlenecks  for both cars and buses). Likewise, you can say that overall, the B44 SBS was a failure with the way they cut too many limited stops out and reduced service on the local.

That is the crux of the problem. The data is not there or has not been released to show what works and what doesn't work. There needs to be a real analysis of all SBS routes before any more are created. Even the B44 works very well for a few people, line 30 health care workers along Emmons Avenue who live in Crown Heights. But the MTA and DOT have been using data selectively and distorting the results to wrongly show it has all been a success.

Also, Avenue D SBS stop was added prior to implementation and the MTA agreed to add Avenue R, then reneged. 

2 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

I believe non of us know every person who lives on avenue P. But it quite a no brainer to not just throw a route on there without outreach. The B82 sbs had outreach but all of a sudden people like to forget. On top of that taking an express/limited/sbs off of a street would hurt those who need a direct connection. “They could walk” tell that to someone old or disabled. 

No one said anything about throwing out a route without outreach. And yes there has been a long history of people opposing new bus routes on their streets so it is a legitimate issue. And your other issue is also legitimate. But the outreach has been pathetic. Besides meeting with business owners and the transportation committees of community boards, there has been no outreach to the general public. The first SBS meetings were held with the entire community boards and for the B44, they had publicized workshops for everyone, but those resulted in too much criticism so now all they do besides those meetings is stand at bus stops and listen to people complain how horrible the existing service is and use that as rationale to institute SBS. Anyone who suggests improvements or changes is just ignored because of the MTA and DOT's arrogance. This plan was postponed because Byford was convinced the outreach was lacking. 

[Future ENY OP]

2 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

That is the crux of the problem. The data is not there or has not been released to show what works and what doesn't work. There needs to be a real analysis of all SBS routes before any more are created. Even the B44 works very well for a few people, line 30 health care workers along Emmons Avenue who live in Crown Heights. But the MTA and DOT have been using data selectively and distorting the results to wrongly show it has all been a success.

Also, Avenue D SBS stop was added prior to implementation and the MTA agreed to add Avenue R, then reneged.

If I'm reading this correctly the original plan called for express style SBS from Church to Junction before the Avenue D stop (Southbound) was added before implementation ? Is that correct..

Here's the thing with Avenue R. (I haven't been in Sheepshead Bay in years to really study this). However, Avenue R was a viable stop on the limited after Kings Highway for connection for the B2/B31 and pretty much still is. Similar to what Avenue L is with the B9 connection.  I believe the original plan Northbound 44SBS was Avenue U---> Kings Highway-----> Junction thus leaving out Avenue L.. Correct?

[Future ENY OP]

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I mean, it adds more time, but it also benefits those at the stop, so you have to consider the tradeoff of passenger-minutes saved by those traveling to/from Avenue L (whether it was to transfer to/from the B9 or because they lived/worked/shopped in the immediate area) vs. passenger-minutes lost by those passengers who have to sit through the extra stop. Not knowing the exact numbers, I'd still say it was a good idea to add it back, since Avenue L is a transfer point and the distance from Kings Highway to The Junction is fairly long (so you're effectively bypassing a whole section of Midwood)

 

To look at the perspective of things: I think is good to have that stop added. The Kings Highway to Junction distance is pretty long considering with the Avenue L stop you do have the B9 plus the junior high school in the area so I can see some benefit of adding that stop to the equation.. Sad to say but you can't have a true express style SBS in Brooklyn unless you increase frequencies on the local span.

Also, considering the local is NOT frequent since the treats the Brooklyn Division like stepchildren by cutting essential bus services in the areas that it serves with SBS.. Hence, 44 & 46. The 46 is a tragedy at this point.

[B35 via Church]

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Also, asking for better bus service does not equate with SBS.....

Thank you..... The problem isn't that we needed a new type of service.... Never mind that it's somehow automatically assumed to be qualitative of better service.....

That is a large part of the problem I have with some of these SBS supporters - The predicating on the whole notion of *anything is better than status quo*..... As a free-thinker, I can't allow myself to subscribe to such, desperate thoughts.... Whatever's put on the table, I'm going to analyze it to the better of my abilities FIRST, before coming to a conclusion.... Not, *oh shit, service sucks, here's an idea, here's a new service, it's going to better your commute by 'x' percent because they said so..... yyaaeeeaayyyy - my commute will be better soon * ..

.... , f*** out of here, Go home, roger.....

While not entirely the MTA's fault, this is the same agency that's providing service that's steadily worsening system-wide/city-wide, for the most part, in the first place... The damn buses, subways, and RR's in this city.... And I'm supposed to have faith that one day, just one day that the MTA will wake up & smell the coffee, instead of smelling themselves.... Go to bed, aint happening over here.... The burden of showing & proving is on them & after decades of this nonsense of ignoring riders & doing whatever they want, whenever they want, I'm NOT giving these agenda driven ****** ignoramus' the benefit of the doubt..... I refuse... Hate me now.

While I'm not anti-mass transit in general, putting up w/ what a lot of NY-ers go through w/ this agency on a daily basis, man, it is easily perceptible to see how feasible they make it for someone to become one....

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

1) Do you personally know people who live on Avenue P who are planning on protesting the route? This is what irks me, when people assume automatically that community board members are automatically NIMBYs who oppose transit improvements. For example, I've been to meetings for all 3 Staten Island community boards (and as everybody knows, Staten Island is overall the most car-oriented borough), and I've never had any problems suggesting bus routes down new streets.

2) To me, this would be a good opportunity to look at restructuring all the routes in that general area (B2/7/31/100). Further down, the distance between Avenue P & Kings Highway grows, so you do need something covering that segment.

3) That would result in two very weak routes. Your B50 would pretty much lose all of its ridership to the B82 (for a second time  ) especially since it doesn't even have the connection  to the  at 86th Street, and on the eastern end, you end up with a situation similar to now where the B7 is weak south of Church Avenue (and now even moreso because it doesn't even have the connection to the Brighton Line). The route can be split between depots without splitting the physical route. 

4) In any case, SBS can be modified after it's been implemented. The Bx12 had stops added at Cedar Avenue (and later on Stillwell Avenue), the B44 had stops added at Gates Avenue & Avenue L, and the M60 had its bus lanes extended from 5th Avenue to Amsterdam Avenue.

5) You can't just blindly say that "SBS doesn't work" or even that "SBS does work". In some particular cases, it does work, in some particular cases it doesn't work, and in some cases, some features work, and some features don't. For example, overall, the Bx41 & S79 SBS routes were a success (especially since the Bx41 also involved realigning the lanes in certain areas to provide more capacity through certain bottlenecks  for both cars and buses). Likewise, you can say that overall, the B44 SBS was a failure with the way they cut too many limited stops out and reduced service on the local.

eins] It's not that far-fetched to expect, when the more/most vocal community boards have their fair share of residents within their boundaries/territories that do think that way..... I used to be on that wavelength myself, before I started paying attention to various CB's across the city (large in part, because my CB talks about the same QoL issues over & over & over & over & over & over & over again... The only thing transit related you'll hear about, are the dollar cabs/vans.... You think shit was said about the B46 SBS in particular... Hah!)..... What irks me when it comes to the CB's, is that you often hear about the usual suspects..... In Brooklyn it's CB6, CB10, CB15.... For as much that's going on in North Brooklyn, you don't really hear shit from CB1.....

zwei] CB15 needs to be more vocal when it comes to public transit... Remember the B3K? Before this B82 SBS backlash, that's the last I really heard from them (when it comes to buses)... To their credit, they won't shutup about the Brighton (which is how it should be, because they care that much).... Same with CB10 & the 4th av line.... But yeah, I also think the network could use some restructuring around there & I've also brought up some ideas that I think would be of help......

drei] The first section is how the old B7 ran, off peak (or, the current part time routing, however you wanna look at it), The second section, now I would deem that as very weak; that's a bastardized version of the old B5; people would likely shun a route like that..... But in general, I concur with what's being said here.... Some of it, it's why I came up w/ the idea of running the B7 to the Paerdegats via that branch of the B17 some odd years ago.... South of Church, the route (B7) is supplementarily weak.... If it's gonna be a half-ass supplement to something, it may as well supplement some route/some group of riders that needs the extra BPH along their corridor more.....

vier] Sure, after folding under pressure from those who have enough influence....

funf] While true, I have to say that the SBS supporters are more guilty of this than the anti's (from comments on here & under other blog postings).... How many times have I said on here that the S79 is the best rendition of SBS? Following it w/ such quips as "...and I'm the anti saying this"...... While the Bx41 SBS moves like lightning in its own right, I personally don't care for what led up to the creation of the Bx41SBS (Bx41/Bx39 northern terminal swap).... The most negative thing you'll hear from most supporters is a "let's wait & see".... The MTA goes to hell or high water to make SBS work - why couldn't this same valiant effort be made before the advent of SBS....

Between the time they came out with LTD service & SBS, all you heard was crickets......

[B35 via Church]

33 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I believe the original plan Northbound 44SBS was Avenue U---> Kings Highway-----> Junction thus leaving out Avenue L.. Correct?

Yeah.... That was how significant those gaps were.

[Future ENY OP]

Here's news 12 intake on the SBS services: http://brooklyn.news12.com/story/37912219/residents-protest-proposed-select-bus-service-plan-in-bensonhurst

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

If I'm reading this correctly the original plan called for express style SBS from Church to Junction before the Avenue D stop (Southbound) was added before implementation ? Is that correct..

Here's the thing with Avenue R. (I haven't been in Sheepshead Bay in years to really study this). However, Avenue R was a viable stop on the limited after Kings Highway for connection for the B2/B31 and pretty much still is. Similar to what Avenue L is with the B9 connection.  I believe the original plan Northbound 44SBS was Avenue U---> Kings Highway-----> Junction thus leaving out Avenue L.. Correct?

Yes, correct. Their rationale for not including Avenue R is that there were few bus transfers there. They also needed to include those boarding at Avenue R, Avenue S and Quentin Road as well as B100 transfers because most of those people would walk to Avenue R if it were an SBS stop. Why should those who previously used the Limited, now be forced onto the local? It makes no sense and isn't fair. 

7 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Here's news 12 intake on the SBS services: http://brooklyn.news12.com/story/37912219/residents-protest-proposed-select-bus-service-plan-in-bensonhurst

Then there was their other clip with yours truly. 

http://brooklyn.news12.com/clip/14260172/gravesend-residents-to-rally-against-citys-plan-for-b82-bus-line

[MidwoodMartin]

Let me just weigh in one thing about Avenue P: you guys realize this is a street with residential houses, families and driveways? Now imagine a bus with 28k people daily just comes along, out of nowhere without asking, and stops in front of your house along a curbside bus lane? That's sort-of invading your privacy. And it can make it more difficult for people to exit their driveway too. 

I rather have a bus on a street with businesses (where it's been for YEARS!) than on one with houses. Sure, other buses run on similar streets. But they've been there for years and those streets are not exactly Avenue P. 

It also seemed to me from the B82 SBS opponents that some don't even know that a B82 currently exists! I know how foreign it can be for a car owner to think about buses but that doesn't mean riders aren't a part of the community. 

Plus, you'd likely have the same stupid protests with Avenue P. The bus lane would still take up parking. What difference does it make if you "take" parking from Avenue P or from Kings Highway? People can walk from Avenue P to shop on Kings Highway the same way people could, according to some of the people here, walk from Avenue P to Kings Highway to take a B82! BTW I wouldn't call the bus lane "taking" parking away. I'd call it delaying parking, as that lane would only be active for 6 hours per day on weekdays only, which is already a giant concession from the DOT/MTA.

The B82 on Ave P is a joke of a proposal and once the same people who did the protest realize that, they'd oppose that as well. 

People need to realize that Kings Highway is not a countryside. It's in urban Brooklyn! Yes, it is a bit like Manhattan. Every borough has business districts like that. They need normal bus service, not locals where people fight for oxygen. As if one bus lane, partially installed, active few hours on weekdays is somehow going to "ruin the neighborhood". Can it get any more irrational?

The only rational solution here is to go and launch the B82 SBS. 

If someone would propose a B82 Local today on Kings Highway where there was none, don't you think those protesters would turn out as well? You can't deal with people who will oppose ANYTHING which makes them and their driving habits feel uncomfortable. Someone wants to build a medical center? OPPOSE. Someone wants to build a business? OPPOSE. Someone wants to fix up a bus route which serves thousands of people daily? OPPOSE. I don't want to call them NIMBYs, but what other term is there to call these people if they think the whole world revolves around parking spots! And that's just not the case, especially not in Brooklyn. At some point you just have to launch something to help the route and with that the community. 

And BTW, one more thing: the freaking MAYOR OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK announced this plan at Chaim Deutsch's town hall LAST YEAR! In front of the WORLD! Live streamed! What are they talking about they only found out a month ago? No, Chaim Deutsch sent his press release about a month ago. That's when they "found out". The plan itself was there since 2015, they just didn't pay attention. That's not the DOT's fault! 

All it takes is for Chaim Deutsch to send one dumb and misleading press release and this entire area goes crazy! They're only well organized because they're tightly knit and 'everybody knows each other'. And you know what- that's great! That's beautiful! I love these warm and fuzzy communities. But that doesn't mean they're people who the DOT or MTA should listen to if they're being completely irrational on a topic.

If the agencies care about their votes and are postponing it because of that, what they should do is launch the B82 SBS in late 2018 or early 2019, when there are no elections that year. I hope that's the DOT/MTA's strategy. 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by MidwoodMartin

[P3F]

What's funny to me, is all the people acting as if now is a bad time to voice concerns.

When DOT does something, it (unfortunately) often stays for a long time... Better protest now and get the plan fixed, rather than suffer for decades to come.

Edited April 17, 2018 by P3F

[BrooklynBus]

6 minutes ago, MidwoodMartin said:

Let me just weigh in one thing about Avenue P: you guys realize this is a street with residential houses, families and driveways? Now imagine a bus with 28k people daily just comes along, out of nowhere without asking, and stops in front of your house along a curbside bus lane? That's sort-of invading your privacy. And it can make it more difficult for people to exit their driveway too. 

I rather have a bus on a street with businesses (where it's been for YEARS!) than on one with houses. Sure, other buses run on similar streets. But they've been there for years and those streets are not exactly Avenue P. 

It also seemed to me from the B82 SBS opponents that some don't even know that a B82 currently exists! I know how foreign it can be for a car owner to think about buses but that doesn't mean riders aren't a part of the community. 

Plus, you'd likely have the same stupid protests with Avenue P. The bus lane would still take up parking. What difference does it make if you "take" parking from Avenue P or from Kings Highway? People can walk from Avenue P to shop on Kings Highway the same way people could, according to some of the people here, walk from Avenue P to Kings Highway to take a B82! BTW I wouldn't call the bus lane "taking" parking away. I'd call it delaying parking, as that lane would only be active for 6 hours per day on weekdays only, which is already a giant concession from the DOT/MTA.

The B82 on Ave P is a joke of a proposal and once the same people who did the protest realize that, they'd oppose that as well. 

People need to realize that Kings Highway is not a countryside. It's in urban Brooklyn! Yes, it is a bit like Manhattan. Every borough has business districts like that. They need normal bus service, not locals where people fight for oxygen. As if one bus lane, partially installed, active few hours on weekdays is somehow going to "ruin the neighborhood". Can it get any more irrational?

The only rational solution here is to go and launch the B82 SBS. 

If someone would propose a B82 Local today on Kings Highway where there was none, don't you think those protesters would turn out as well? You can't deal with people who will oppose ANYTHING which makes them and their driving habits feel uncomfortable. Someone wants to build a medical center? OPPOSE. Someone wants to build a business? OPPOSE. Someone wants to fix up a bus route which serves thousands of people daily? OPPOSE. I don't want to call them NIMBYs, but what other term is there to call these people if they think the whole world revolves around parking spots! And that's just not the case, especially not in Brooklyn. At some point you just have to launch something to help the route and with that the community. 

And BTW, one more thing: the freaking MAYOR OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK announced this plan at Chaim Deutsch's town hall LAST YEAR! In front of the WORLD! Live streamed! What are they talking about they only found out a month ago? No, Chaim Deutsch sent his press release about a month ago. That's when they "found out". The plan itself was there since 2015, they just didn't pay attention. That's not the DOT's fault! 

All it takes is for Chaim Deutsch to send one dumb and misleading press release and this entire area goes crazy! They're only well organized because they're tightly knit and 'everybody knows each other'. And you know what- that's great! That's beautiful! I love these warm and fuzzy communities. But that doesn't mean they're people who the DOT or MTA should listen to if they're being completely irrational on a topic.

If the agencies care about their votes and are postponing it because of that, what they should do is launch the B82 SBS in late 2018 or early 2019, when there are no elections that year. I hope that's the DOT/MTA's strategy. 

 

Let me weigh in also. 

First of all, no one is talking about just putting a bus on Avenue P without any discussion. You are just making that up. It is merely being presented as an alternative for discussion. And just because part of a street is residential, doesn't automatically mean a bus can't run on it or that communities will oppose it. There was no opposition when one direction of the 13th Avenue bus was moved from the commercial 13th Avenue to the residential 14th Avenue. 

And it's very easy to blame everything bad on community groups calling them all NIMBY's and not wanting any change. That is just untrue. I go to my Community Board meetings fairly frequently and often see them approve new developments. They oppose them when they have good reason to oppose them. I also realize that sonetines they don't always behave in a rational manner.

No matter how you try to spin this, the B82 SBS has been poorly publicized, just like all the others. Most find out about it when it is implemented. Many bus riders today still have no idea what SBS is unless there is a route in their neighborhood. 

You are also assuming SBS means better service and that no one is hurt, just because the MTA tells you that. Read my piece in the Gotham Gazette. Part 2 will be out in a few hours. Maybe that will open up your eyes if you are willing to accept facts that contradict with what you have been hearing. But I have my doubts. You will probably continue to believe what you believe now no matter what anyone else says. 

[MidwoodMartin]

Quote

First of all, no one is talking about just putting a bus on Avenue P without any discussion. 

Heh. Yeah. I wonder how that discussion would go. Surely those suburban families and the locals would all be understanding of the need for a better B82 and rapid transit and not oppose any changes to Avenue P for the sake of a few parking spots at a few hours a day. Surely they'd be interested in serious discussions and debates rather than to outright stop any SBS on Avenue P. Surely they wouldn't wait until the last minute to get upset about a plan which would already be on the brink of implementation.  /s

We had discussions on the B82 SBS on Kings Highway since 2015. Now it's time to launch it, not postpone it. 

If the Mayor of New York City stood right in front of them telling them that there's gonna be a SBS on Kings Highway but they say months later they didn't know about it, what exactly do you call proper publicity? 

Edited April 17, 2018 by MidwoodMartin

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, MidwoodMartin said:

... what exactly do you call proper publicity? 

The least they could have done would be to make the presentation in front of the entire community boards instead of only a few on the transportation committee. DeBlasio used billboards to promote Vision Zero but not to publicize SBS. There could be a single presentation describing the entire proposal in addition to separate ones for each board. It's as if no one rides a bus outside their community board. It shouldn't take a convoluted menu on the DOT website to find info on SBS. The B82 SBS is listed under the Southern Brooklyn SBS as if someone supposed to know to look there. Also, most people would look for info on the MTA site where there is none, not on the DOT site where if you click on the graphic that asks for your opinion on the B82, you are taken to info that is three years old. Do you need more examples? 

[BrooklynBus]

Part 2 is out.

http://www.gothamgazette.com/opinion/7609-the-great-select-bus-service-conspiracy-part-2

[Around the Horn]

Streetsblog is reporting that DOT refuses to confirm on whether or not it is indeed postponed while the MTA sent them the standard "We're listening" response. Who knows at this point...

[BrooklynBus]

11 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Streetsblog is reporting that DOT refuses to confirm on whether or not it is indeed postponed while the MTA sent them the standard "We're listening" response. Who knows at this point...

The MTA is known for changing their mind, reneging on promises, and telling different stories to different parties. Why do you think they meet with each business association separately? So they can tell each one how many parking spaces they are eliminating in their area without ever having to disclose the total number of parking spaces that will get eliminated. 

They agreed to add a much needed Avenue R bus stop on the B44 SBS, then later said they weren't going to do it. You can't believe anything DOT or the MTA tells you. Look how they hid the causes of subway delays. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by BrooklynBus

[Brillant93]

16 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

 

You are also assuming SBS means better service and that no one is hurt, just because the MTA tells you that. Read my piece in the Gotham Gazette. Part 2 will be out in a few hours. Maybe that will open up your eyes if you are willing to accept facts that contradict with what you have been hearing. But I have my doubts. You will probably continue to believe what you believe now no matter what anyone else says. 

So let me get this straight unless if facts coming from you or anyone who’s against sbs or any other improvement the mta tries to make its lies and such? I read your piece and I can admit they’re might be issues with less local service and people being ticketed unfairly but in what way doesn’t sbs mean better service?

Lesser stops on an express route means people can get to where they have to go faster. I use sbs on the B46 when I need to get into the city and I get there much more faster than I did when it used to be a limited service even though the B46 was a reliable bus before then. 

I could understand wanting more local service but if local buses on most routes aren’t up to capacity that’s just wasting money. If more people ride sbs then why put more buses on the local if it’s only going to be half empty? 

Bus lanes aren’t going to hurt business nor will it make them go out of business. If most customers arrive by foot or transit who’s the better beneficiary? Especially if it’s a bus lane that is operational at certain times of the day it’s a compromise especially in a city this dense. Straphangers shouldn’t be stuck in traffic if they’re not the ones making the traffic. On top of that there’s people who still park in bus lanes and stops while forcing elderly or disabled people to walk into streets. The NYPD aren’t enforcing the law nor are they are too abiding by it themselves via doing the same thing. I can’t remember to name a European city but they did something called a compromise where parking space wasn’t added unless parking was taken away from somewhere else. It was there to help their congestion problem. As a result their businesses have grown as it was feared they would lose it. As I said before if most of these businesses have customers that don’t own cars or come by car who would benefit from bus lanes? 

As someone who uses these buses for work and to get around I find it quite arrogant when people who just fan ride or Just witness bus routes happen to decide or come up with things that aren’t in the passengers point of view. I don’t see how sbs is a failure when it’s compenents have nothing to do with it’s faults. There’s bus lanes on local routes in certain places in the city, there people who park in them, there’s people who still miss the bus, there’s still shitty bus service on majority of the routes in nyc and that doesn’t have to do with sbs. But in what way are the better solutions since some of you like to criticize? I can’t see how the kings hwy corridor would be better off without any sort of treatment because people will double park and block traffic. I read your piece and even if they did the same thing with the limited service as much as they did with sbs it still would generate opposition. 

We have a transit issue in our city and it’s not going to get better if we keep letting things go the way they are. If third world countries have a better bus system than we do its embarrassing. 

[Express Bus Operator]

NYPD needs to do some enforcement with parking on the bus lane and bus stop...I believe the major and police commissioner should see that the lack of citations has decreased......

SBS is reliable!!!!!!!

[BrooklynBus]

To Brilliant93.

Your statements are in italics: 

So let me get this straight unless if facts coming from you or anyone who’s against sbs or any other improvement the mta tries to make its lies and such? 

Never said that. The MTA is quite capable of telling the truth. They just have been only telling the partial story, the positives and omitting the negatives and lying and misleading. Here's an example: Any change anyone makes will help some and hurt some. But if you look at the MTA's SBS FAQ's SBS makes it better for every single bus rider, everyone in cars, and means increased business for commercial establishment. Absolutely, no one is hurt. It is absolutely perfect. That just isn't possible. 

I read your piece and I can admit they’re might be issues with less local service and people being ticketed unfairly but in what way doesn’t sbs mean better service?

Lesser stops on an express route means people can get to where they have to go faster. I use sbs on the B46 when I need to get into the city and I get there much more faster than I did when it used to be a limited service even though the B46 was a reliable bus before then. 

As I stated, I am not disputing that some riders are better off because of SBS. I said that right up front. Any chance must help more people than it hurts for it to be considered a success. And that also includes those who don't ride the bus. The proper data has not been collected or has not been made public to conclude it is an improvement. SBS helps long distance riders as I stated, but most use buses for short distances making SBS savings minimal for most or no savings at all. Former B44 Limited riders boarding at Avenue R are worse off, because now they must take the local and can't use SBS. Also anyone going to Kings County Hospital/Downstate is worse off because they now have an extra walk. 

I could understand wanting more local service but if local buses on most routes aren’t up to capacity that’s just wasting money. If more people ride sbs then why put more buses on the local if it’s only going to be half empty? 

But who says more are using the SBS than the local? Do you know that for a fact. Separate SBS/local data is not easy to find. It was available for the B44 SBS/local and it showed riders were about equally split between the two. Does that make sense to you when the longer buses are on the SBS and regular buses on the local? That means the SBS is emptier than the locals which are more crowded. 

Bus lanes aren’t going to hurt business nor will it make them go out of business. If most customers arrive by foot or transit who’s the better beneficiary? Especially if it’s a bus lane that is operational at certain times of the day it’s a compromise especially in a city this dense. 

Cross Bay Blvd merchants complained of 30% fewer customers. Not sure if that was overall or during the times the lanes are in effect. But that doesn't make me against those curbside lanes. I just think on Cross Bay, they are not needed in the off-peak direction. In fact, I think they also need to be in effect on Saturdays and Sundays from May to Labor Day for the beach traffic. 

Straphangers shouldn’t be stuck in traffic if they’re not the ones making the traffic. On top of that there’s people who still park in bus lanes and stops while forcing elderly or disabled people to walk into streets. The NYPD aren’t enforcing the law nor are they are too abiding by it themselves via doing the same thing. I can’t remember to name a European city but they did something called a compromise where parking space wasn’t added unless parking was taken away from somewhere else. It was there to help their congestion problem. As a result their businesses have grown as it was feared they would lose it. As I said before if most of these businesses have customers that don’t own cars or come by car who would benefit from bus lanes? 

Not disagreeing with you here. I am not really opposed to the curbside lanes on Kings Highway. It's the loss of parking spaces that are not being replaced which is the problem. Had the city not removed the municipal parking lot, there would be much less of a protest. The available parking there right now is just absolutely critical. 

As someone who uses these buses for work and to get around I find it quite arrogant when people who just fan ride or Just witness bus routes happen to decide or come up with things that aren’t in the passengers point of view. I don’t see how sbs is a failure when it’s compenents have nothing to do with it’s faults. There’s bus lanes on local routes in certain places in the city, there people who park in them, there’s people who still miss the bus, there’s still shitty bus service on majority of the routes in nyc and that doesn’t have to do with sbs. But in what way are the better solutions since some of you like to criticize? I can’t see how the kings hwy corridor would be better off without any sort of treatment because people will double park and block traffic. I read your piece and even if they did the same thing with the limited service as much as they did with sbs it still would generate opposition. 

Something definitely needs to be done on Kings Highway between Coney Island and Ocean Ave. I just don't see SBS as the answer. You also have to look at the big picture. If bus lanes are not going to be enforced, why put them in? If articulated buses are going to have more difficulty making some of the tight turns and negotiate the double parkers, why change buses? If articulated buses mean you will have to wait longer for a bus, why use them? If local service will be reduced, and it will be, why make people wait 20 or 30 minutes for a local so SBS riders can save five or ten minutes? You are hurting one group to help another but not making it fetter for everyone. Also, why put in exclusive lanes where buses are already going fast and won't be going any faster with SBS? The proposal as it is currently does not make sense. Since SBS helps those riding long distances, it's routes need to be fast and travel longer distances connecting new neighborhoods and increasing employment opportunities. That would happen if it went from Bay Ridge to Gateway or JFK as I proposed. In fact, I proposed gat be the first Brooklyn SBS route back in 2004 instead of the B44 which was also done wrong. Why did the Southern Brooklyn SBS become a B82 SBS without explanation? 

We have a transit issue in our city and it’s not going to get better if we keep letting things go the way they are. If third world countries have a better bus system than we do its embarrassing. 

I agree. 

 

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, DueceDrives said:

SBS is reliable!!!!!!!

Not according to the NYC Comptroller. 

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

....But who says more are using the SBS than the local? Do you know that for a fact. Separate SBS/local data is not easy to find. It was available for the B44 SBS/local and it showed riders were about equally split between the two. Does that make sense to you when the longer buses are on the SBS and regular buses on the local? That means the SBS is emptier than the locals which are more crowded.

This got me to thinking about something....

Has the MTA ever scaled back on SBS service on any route as of yet? If so, I'd like to know which routes & to what extent.....

Ever since it's inception, I have seen way too many virtually empty B46 SBS' smack-dab in the middle of the route here on Church/Utica.... For as great as SBS is supposed to be, that should never happen.... Bus bunching should be immune to the almighty SBS.... I, quite frankly, hate what they did w/ the B46 route overall..... Too ambitious.

--------

Don't feel like screenshotting anything at the moment, but I'm looking at the M23 on bustime.... There are 3 buses at Chelsea Piers, 3 at Peter Cooper (FDR side<>Av. C side, it's terminal), 1WB bus at 8th av & 1 EB bus mid-block b/w 5th & 6th... 8 total trips in service & 6 of them are at their terminals.... SBS or not, that would make me furious if I needed the M23 right now & I'm over there around the heart of 23rd....

 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by B35 via Church

[BrooklynBus]

35 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

This got me to thinking about something....

Has the MTA ever scaled back on SBS service on any route as of yet? If so, I'd like to know which routes & to what extent.....

Ever since it's inception, I have seen way too many virtually empty B46 SBS' smack-dab in the middle of the route here on Church/Utica.... For as great as SBS is supposed to be, that should never happen.... Bus bunching should be immune to the almighty SBS.... I, quite frankly, hate what they did w/ the B46 route overall..... Too ambitious.

--------

Don't feel like screenshotting anything at the moment, but I'm looking at the M23 on bustime.... There are 3 buses at Chelsea Piers, 3 at Peter Cooper (FDR side<>Av. C side, it's terminal), 1WB bus at 8th av & 1 EB bus mid-block b/w 5th & 6th... 8 total trips in service & 6 of them are at their terminals.... SBS or not, that would make me furious if I needed the M23 right now & I'm over there around the heart of 23rd....

 

 

I know when they re did the B44 schedules after three months and added locals, they also greatly scaled back on the SBS especially on weekends. They originally proposed a combined SBS and local from Knapp Street every three minutes during the morning peak because they expected most B4 and B36 riders to switch to the SBS. I remember telling them at CB15, that would never happen. You can check the morning schedules now from Knapp Street and see what it is. I know it's no longer every three minutes.

[WestFarms36]

I will be honest here... +SBS+ was a plan sought to bring faster bus service to struggling routes, not everyone may perceive the brand as it was stated. Yes +SBS+ has been a Success Bx41, Webster Av, and also a Failure B44, Nostrand Av, but at the end of the day it may benefit someone or the neighborhood in some way, or not. Yes the MTA and DOT may fail to realize the long term effects and changes some of those plans may cause. I am not disagreeing with anybody, nor do I support any side of the argument. +Select Bus Service does of course need improvement, it does need to be revised, and yes better attention to CB's and Neighborhoods should be taken into account. Some of the routes are necessary, some aren't. Fighting over biased comments won't solve this issue. Do not take this personal as I am referring to the issue Generally and even in real life this happens. People's orientation over Transportation doesn't always describe your POV or thought process, many of us have different commutes, and different types of travel. In my opinion the Bx6 +SBS+ is very beneficial for me and I find it very useful for my daily commute. I often use the route and get to places on time, my commute on the Bx6 +SBS+ is 30% faster, offboard payment, all door boarding, Bus Lanes, fewer stops, and TSP at some intersections. Many of our POV's when riding the service may be different, for me I might find it useful, someone else may not and it is perfectly fine, I understand. Everyone has a different experience and perception of things.

[Brillant93]

10 minutes ago, WestFarms36 said:

I will be honest here... +SBS+ was a plan sought to bring faster bus service to struggling routes, not everyone may perceive the brand as it was stated. Yes +SBS+ has been a Success Bx41, Webster Av, and also a Failure B44, Nostrand Av, but at the end of the day it may benefit someone or the neighborhood in some way, or not. Yes the MTA and DOT may fail to realize the long term effects and changes some of those plans may cause. I am not disagreeing with anybody, nor do I support any side of the argument. +Select Bus Service does of course need improvement, it does need to be revised, and yes better attention to CB's and Neighborhoods should be taken into account. Some of the routes are necessary, some aren't. Fighting over biased comments won't solve this issue. Do not take this personal as I am referring to the issue Generally and even in real life this happens. People's orientation over Transportation doesn't always describe your POV or thought process, many of us have different commutes, and different types of travel. In my opinion the Bx6 +SBS+ is very beneficial for me and I find it very useful for my daily commute. I often use the route and get to places on time, my commute on the Bx6 +SBS+ is 30% faster, offboard payment, all door boarding, Bus Lanes, fewer stops, and TSP at some intersections. Many of our POV's when riding the service may be different, for me I might find it useful, someone else may not and it is perfectly fine, I understand. Everyone has a different experience and perception of things.

I agree with your comment. Yes everyone has their own point of view on transit and even though sbs isn’t perfect everyone is affected differently.

It’s just that with me personally I talk about the routes I use and rely on whether it was for school, work, or just to get around. I can’t speak on routes that don’t affect me because I don’t know them. The first sbs I took for work was the B44sbs and I was amazed by it. One I was fanning because this was the first articulated route in Brooklyn and two it took me where I needed to go. It was fast for me and so on. Another was the B46sbs and that route was always reliable even before it was sbs. My experience has been nice, it’s not perfect but it’s a bette experience. 

[WestFarms36]

1 minute ago, Brillant93 said:

I agree with your comment. Yes everyone has their own point of view on transit and even though sbs isn’t perfect everyone is affected differently.

It’s just that with me personally I talk about the routes I use and rely on whether it was for school, work, or just to get around. I can’t speak on routes that don’t affect me because I don’t know them. The first sbs I took for work was the B44sbs and I was amazed by it. One I was fanning because this was the first articulated route in Brooklyn and two it took me where I needed to go. It was fast for me and so on. Another was the B46sbs and that route was always reliable even before it was sbs. My experience has been nice, it’s not perfect but it’s a bette experience. 

I used to ride the Bx6 Local before +SBS+ and my trip took longer, and talk to me about the line you have to make to pay at the Farebox, it was pitiful. I no longer even use the Bx6 Local and avoid it as much as I possibly can now. I get to the Bus Stop, pay at the machine, and board through any door. It is beneficial because not only do you get on the bus quicker, you may also find a seat quicker and help distribute passenger loading much more equally. I would take the Bx6 Local at 163 - 3 Av after transferring from the Bx21 and my trip was around 1 hour and 5 minutes, now with +SBS+ it is down to 45 minutes. 20 minute reduction on my trip and works on my favor, I get to work earlier which I can be able to go to McDonalds or Dunkin' Donuts and buy some coffee and something to eat before walking into work. Everyone has a different POV and +SBS+ has either negative or positive effects depending on the person and the type of neighborhood. I would not say that a route sucks without even riding it or living in the area to understand pros and cons and the quality of life with changes in that magnitude.