Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[Brillant93]

3 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

That is correct. The 41 should of been artic years ago.

Well the B41 would be another local route that would be sbs in my neighborhood. Funny how all the sbs routes are right by where I live. I have the B46sbs, B44sbs, soon the B82 sbs, and potentially the B41sbs. 

[JeremiahC99]

29 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The traffic changes they are proposing around the terminal do not require SBS to be implemented. 

Are you talking about the addition of a contraflow bus lane on Glenwood Road from E. 103rd Street to Rockaway Pkwy?

[Future ENY OP]

Just now, Kingjunior34 said:

But Flatbush isn’t on the roster for any of the new xd60s or New Lfsa 

That's the whole issue. Meanwhile the current 53xx buses are being over used and that the  wants new premium fleet for the SBS.

FB has some Nova parts that are done inhouse. However, extensive work is done in The Bronx. Does ENY CMF or Grand Ave CMF do work on the novas?

[BrooklynBus]

21 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

It's been three days and no one else has this story... That's a red flag if I've ever seen one...

And since when does the media report the news timely. There are crimes that are reported three weeks after they occur, only when the police need the public's help. The mainstream media also considers buses as a local issue and no worthy of citywide coverage. When the southwest Brooklyn bus changes were made in 1978, there was zero TV coverage and a citywide newspaper strike. Only Courier Life covered it and that was because of a demonstration in Coney Island because if the B74 elimination on Mermaid Avenue that lasted for three months. Changng 12 bus routes on one day was not considered newsworthy. Not that much has changed regarding the media in 40 years. News12  and neighborhood papers will probably only briefly mention it. 

[JeremiahC99]

8 minutes ago, Kingjunior34 said:

But Flatbush isn’t on the roster for any of the new xd60s or New Lfsa 

The what are they getting to replace their 53xx LFSA buses?

[BrooklynBus]

27 minutes ago, DueceDrives said:

I think so too.... they did mention after the 82 the 41 would be the next motion

And the B41 will face even more opposition than the B82. The Flatbush Avenue merchants are dead set against it after seein the results on Nostrand and on Utica. 

15 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I've been searching for a few days. Nothing from daily news, news 12, pix11,  MTA themselves, etc. Unless I see documents and more news like this, I'm taking this as a hoax.

Assemblyman Cymbrowitz announced it on Facebook before that article came out. He wouldn't have done that f it weren't true. And sometimes when it's in the paper, you can't believe it's true. Courier Life announced about three months ago that a B44 SBS stop would be added at Avenue R. Then the MTA changed their mind after DOT and the MTA both agreed, and the stop was not installed. 

[B35 via Church]

19 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I've been searching for a few days. Nothing from daily news, news 12, pix11,  MTA themselves, etc. Unless I see documents and more news like this, I'm taking this as a hoax.

If it's a hoax, then apparently News 12 Brooklyn also got spoofed.... They mentioned the postponing yesterday.

 

[Kingjunior34]

1 minute ago, BrooklynBus said:

And the B41 will face even more opposition than the B82. The Flatbush Avenue merchants are dead set against it after seein the results on Nostrand and on Utica. 

Assemblyman Cymbrowitz announced it on Facebook before that article came out. He wouldn't have done that f it weren't true. And sometimes when it's in the paper, you can't believe it's true. Courier Life announced about three months ago that a B44 SBS stop would be added at Avenue R. Then the MTA changed their mind after DOT and the MTA both agreed, and the stop was not installed. 

I find it so weird that the Brooklyn sbs routes are facing the most opposition 

[Brillant93]

12 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

That's the whole issue. Meanwhile the current 53xx buses are being over used and that the  wants new premium fleet for the SBS.

FB has some Nova parts that are done inhouse. However, extensive work is done in The Bronx. Does ENY CMF or Grand Ave CMF do work on the novas?

 

6 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

The what are they getting to replace their 53xx LFSA buses?

Most likely the next XD60 order would go to FB to replace the novas there. Since MTA wants brooklyn all new flyer that would be the most logical guess at this moment. 

[B35 via Church]

3 minutes ago, Kingjunior34 said:

I find it so weird that the Brooklyn sbs routes are facing the most opposition 

The Brooklyn SBS current routes/future proposals are the most controversial....

Edited April 16, 2018 by B35 via Church

[JeremiahC99]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

The Brooklyn SBS proposals are the most controversial....

This is due to the bus lanes being opposed by drivers and communities citing increased traffic and loss of parking. I think they are car county out there.

[Future ENY OP]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The Brooklyn SBS current routes/future proposals are the most controversial....

Exactly.... But are the same people who complain for better service.

[Express Bus Operator]

The 41sbs wont have any oppositions.. if so they need to worry about them commuters van......... I highly believe it will be artic instead of short buses. Majority fb routes can become artic if they really wanted too except for the 49 heading Manhattan beach would have to be rerouted....

[MysteriousBtrain]

4 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

If it's a hoax, then apparently News 12 Brooklyn also got spoofed.... They mentioned the postponing yesterday.

 

 

6 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

And the B41 will face even more opposition than the B82. The Flatbush Avenue merchants are dead set against it after seein the results on Nostrand and on Utica. 

Assemblyman Cymbrowitz announced it on Facebook before that article came out. He wouldn't have done that f it weren't true. And sometimes when it's in the paper, you can't believe it's true. Courier Life announced about three months ago that a B44 SBS stop would be added at Avenue R. Then the MTA changed their mind after DOT and the MTA both agreed, and the stop was not installed. 

I'll say this, all I got was "community fought the plan" results. But thanks to @BrooklynBus's post regarding the assemblyman, I see the proof I need to believe it. But I did see the people complaining about less frequent service with addition of artics, which wasn't going to go through in time, plus all artic routes go through this. But I'm not going into much detail because I spent enough time on the B82.

Not that I really cared anyways about the delay, I was just a bit confused (and probably impatient) about why I didn't see enough results.

[BreeddekalbL]

Polly and Deblasio bout to be triggered 😂

[B35 via Church]

15 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

This is due to the bus lanes being opposed by drivers and communities citing increased traffic and loss of parking. I think they are car county out there.

Motorists like to feign like they care about other motorists, but are really in it for no one else but themselves.... Motorists hate other motorists & their gripes against public transportation are more often than not, misguided.....

14 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Exactly.... But are the same people who complain for better service.

I'll keep it a buck..... Most, if not all of us are guilty of not being specific/precise every single time when it comes to "better service".... It's an ambiguous term.... Such complaints are never going to end.... You can bar every single car/van/truck, etc. from every single stretch of road, leaving them with nothing but buses & you will still hear/read outcries for better service.... e/g - Oh, those damn out-of-sync traffic lights!!

I'll go as far as to say, when some people say better service, what they really mean is that they want some bus/train to arrive instantaneously when they get to that stop/station with no delays whatsoever - and by that I mean, not making any other stops than the one they need to disembark at....

Of course, the real world does not work like that.....

7 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I'll say this, all I got was "community fought the plan" results. But thanks to @BrooklynBus's post regarding the assemblyman, I see the proof I need to believe it. But I did see the people complaining about less frequent service with addition of artics, which wasn't going to go through in time, plus all artic routes go through this. But I'm not going into much detail because I spent enough time on the B82.

Not that I really cared anyways about the delay, I was just a bit confused (and probably impatient) about why I didn't see enough results.

I didn't care enough about the postponement to start thinking about red flags & hoaxes, quite honestly.....

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

This is due to the bus lanes being opposed by drivers and communities citing increased traffic and loss of parking. I think they are car county out there.

Not so. It's just that parking is more of a premium in Brooklyn than it is in other areas. In some neighborhoods, it's almost as bad as it in Manhattan. Once I wanted to have dinner in Bay Ridge. I searched for a meter for a full hour, before giving up and eating in Park Slope. 

Also, asking for better bus service does not equate with SBS. SBS has not been an improvement. At least the data is not there to show that it has. Many are for better bus service but have not been sold that SBS means that just because DOT and the MTA claim that without adequate proof. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by BrooklynBus

[JeremiahC99]

21 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Not so. It's just that parking is more of a premium in Brooklyn than it is in other areas. In some neighborhoods, it's almost as bad as it in Manhattan. Once I wanted to have dinner in Bay Ridge. I searched for a meter for a full hour, before giving up and eating in Park Slope. 

Also, asking for better bus service does not equate with SBS. SBS has not been an improvement. At least the data is not there to show that it has. Many are for better bus service but have not been sold that SBS means that just because DOT and the MTA claim that without adequate proof. 

You are correct about the SBS not being an improvement. The B46 SBS is a total disaster. From Empire Blvd to Eastern Pkwy, it is really slow due to poor enforcement of the bus lanes there.

[BrooklynBus]

4 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

You are correct about the SBS not being an improvement. The B46 SBS is a total disaster. From Empire Blvd to Eastern Pkwy, it is really slow due to poor enforcement of the bus lanes there.

It's no time only the B46 that has big problems. And just wait till the beach traffic hits Woodhaven Blvd this summer. The weekends will mean mega traffic congestion with the loss of two lanes for general traffic. Last summer without the lanes southbound traffic barely moving south of Atlantic Avenue. With the lanes in effect, the entire street will be at a standstill. The buses will be the only thing moving on Woodhaven, but they will all be stuck on Cross Bay as they were last year which means the SBS will also be greatly delayed. 

[JeremiahC99]

1 minute ago, BrooklynBus said:

It's no time only the B46 that has big problems. And just wait till the beach traffic hits Woodhaven Blvd this summer. The weekends will mean mega traffic congestion with the loss of two lanes for general traffic. Last summer without the lanes southbound traffic barely moving south of Atlantic Avenue. With the lanes in effect, the entire street will be at a standstill. The buses will be the only thing moving on Woodhaven, but they will all be stuck on Cross Bay as they were last year which means the SBS will also be greatly delayed. 

Were the DOT aware about this summer traffic problem during the planning process for the Woodhaven Blvd SBS plan no one wanted?

[BrooklynBus]

3 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Were the DOT aware about this summer traffic problem during the planning process for the Woodhaven Blvd SBS plan no one wanted?

They should have known because I warned them about it last June. But as usual they didn't care. 

http://www.qchron.com/editions/queenswide/sbs-will-not-solve-beach-commuter-s-headaches/article_c9144508-c9ec-52a9-b05d-f374ba5c093a.html

[JeremiahC99]

27 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

They should have known because I warned them about it last June. But as usual they didn't care. 

http://www.qchron.com/editions/queenswide/sbs-will-not-solve-beach-commuter-s-headaches/article_c9144508-c9ec-52a9-b05d-f374ba5c093a.html

I think they are too arrogant and are the “Emperors” of the city streets.

[checkmatechamp13]

22 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

The plan has to be modified but it’s not going on anvenue P. I keep saying this and yet you guys aren’t listen at all. You know the residents on avenue are going to have issue with a bus route on their avenue. That wouldn’t be fair at all to that side of the community. Not only that avenue p has its own congestion issues. If it does happen it would need out reach and fast if the sbs was to be completed. Not only that you’re forgetting the thousands of riders who would be missing direct connection on kings hwy. just because that community isn’t fond of sbs on kings hwy doesn’t mean the thousands of others on the other side should put up with a route going out of its way for their transfers. That’s just selfish. 

Do you personally know people who live on Avenue P who are planning on protesting the route? This is what irks me, when people assume automatically that community board members are automatically NIMBYs who oppose transit improvements. For example, I've been to meetings for all 3 Staten Island community boards (and as everybody knows, Staten Island is overall the most car-oriented borough), and I've never had any problems suggesting bus routes down new streets.

Avenue P is a wide street, and it does see its fair share of traffic, so it's not the first street you move to if you're seeking peace and quiet. West 6th Street maybe slightly less so, but it's still not some random side street. On top of that, Avenue P between McDonald Avenue & Ocean Parkway has its own little commercial district which would likely welcome bus service, and in any case, there's still a high population density (between the apartment buildings and single-family houses, you have a lot of people who might actually welcome having the bus run closer to them).

The direct connection along Kings Highway...I mean people can walk. It's not much different than what they did with the B36. (Especially heading westbound, those people heading to the Brighton Line have to sit through a left turn at Avenue P & East 18th, and then a right turn at East 18th & Kings Highway. By the time the bus does all that, they probably could've already been at the station if the bus went straight down Avenue P and let them off at East 16th) The only thing is that the division of the local & SBS reminds me of what they did on the northbound B44, which I'm not wild about. To me, this would be a good opportunity to look at restructuring all the routes in that general area (B2/7/31/100). Further down, the distance between Avenue P & Kings Highway grows, so you do need something covering that segment.

7 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Here's the problem that I have with the B7.. Currently it is run by Fresh Pond.. Before this it was at East New York and Flatbush. If you extend the B7 to Bay Parkway this will possibly mean taking it away from Fresh Pond and putting this under Ulmer Park Territory. From Ulmer Park to Bay Parkway it is only a 5-10 min drive where as from Fresh Pond it has to deadhead via Halsey from Bushwick to it's stop on Saratoga & Halsey.. Basically from what I'm saying if you want to extend the B7 to Bay Parkway, swap depots, and also split the route. The Bay Parkway to Bed-stuy via Kings Highway is too long.

B7 would operate in 2 sections:

Section A: Kings Highway & Flatbush to Bed-Stuy via Kings Highway (Operation: Flatbush) Keep as the current B7

Section B: Bay Parkway & 78th Street to Flatbush Ave via Kings Highway (Operation: Ulmer Park) Establishing a new route: B50

The same goes for the B82. Now that SBS is postponed, they need to focus on some factors such as splitting the route, get structured bus lanes and possibly re-vamp the proposal so that the community is pleased and that the MTA can provide the necessities to produce the service.

9

That would result in two very weak routes. Your B50 would pretty much lose all of its ridership to the B82 (for a second time  ) especially since it doesn't even have the connection  to the  at 86th Street, and on the eastern end, you end up with a situation similar to now where the B7 is weak south of Church Avenue (and now even moreso because it doesn't even have the connection to the Brighton Line). The route can be split between depots without splitting the physical route. 

4 hours ago, Kingjunior34 said:

I don’t understand these people in Southern Brooklyn. They aren’t the only  area with delays along the B82 look at rockaway station going around that small area can take up to 20 mins the whole route is prone to delays . The people of Southern Brooklyn are making it such a big deal . The 82 isn’t the only sbs route that had problems and protest . You complain about lack of service and efficiency but then what the mta tries to implement something you guys protest . Now delaying the B82 sbs for all communities along the route . Which are all in need of better service 

10

 

3 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Are you talking about the addition of a contraflow bus lane on Glenwood Road from E. 103rd Street to Rockaway Pkwy?

Yes, that's a DOT decision, and that can be done regardless of what happens further down on Kings Highway. 

In any case, SBS can be modified after it's been implemented. The Bx12 had stops added at Cedar Avenue (and later on Stillwell Avenue), the B44 had stops added at Gates Avenue & Avenue L, and the M60 had its bus lanes extended from 5th Avenue to Amsterdam Avenue. 

There's nothing saying that for example, in the summer pick they have buses rerouted through the contraflow bus lane on Glenwood (and rerouted via Avenue K) and then later on, have the full SBS implemented wherever they decide to do it (whether it's Avenue P or Kings Highway).

2 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I'll say this, all I got was "community fought the plan" results. But thanks to @BrooklynBus's post regarding the assemblyman, I see the proof I need to believe it. But I did see the people complaining about less frequent service with addition of artics, which wasn't going to go through in time, plus all artic routes go through this. But I'm not going into much detail because I spent enough time on the B82.

Not that I really cared anyways about the delay, I was just a bit confused (and probably impatient) about why I didn't see enough results.

1

While artics are a separate issue from SBS (you can have SBS with standard-size buses and run artics on a regular route), I can see why the community would throw that in. Me personally, I'll admit that I let the community board know they should be opposed to artics on Staten Island for that very reason (reduced frequency). The MTA has its guidelines for articulated routes for a reason (something along the lines of the service running every 5-6 minutes before it qualifies) and Staten Island routes don't meet that guideline, so we shouldn't be blindly pressuring the MTA to make exceptions for something that's not in our best interest (or quite frankly, even in their best interest. When you have a low-frequency route with increasing ridership, running more frequent service will continue to build that ridership better than simply throwing articulated buses on a route running every 30 minutes).

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

Also, asking for better bus service does not equate with SBS. SBS has not been an improvement. At least the data is not there to show that it has. Many are for better bus service but have not been sold that SBS means that just because DOT and the MTA claim that without adequate proof. 

 

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

You are correct about the SBS not being an improvement. The B46 SBS is a total disaster. From Empire Blvd to Eastern Pkwy, it is really slow due to poor enforcement of the bus lanes there.

 

You can't just blindly say that "SBS doesn't work" or even that "SBS does work". In some particular cases, it does work, in some particular cases it doesn't work, and in some cases, some features work, and some features don't. For example, overall, the Bx41 & S79 SBS routes were a success (especially since the Bx41 also involved realigning the lanes in certain areas to provide more capacity through certain bottlenecks  for both cars and buses). Likewise, you can say that overall, the B44 SBS was a failure with the way they cut too many limited stops out and reduced service on the local.

[Future ENY OP]

15 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

In any case, SBS can be modified after it's been implemented.  The B44 had stops added at Gates Avenue & Avenue L.

Those 2 stops were added due to community influence.  Especially Avenue L. Somehow, the NIMBY's in that area raised HELL to have a stop there.

The original SBS44+ plan was supposed to go express from Avenue U ---> Kings Highway ---> Junction in that order. Now by adding the Avenue L stop it adds more to the trip.

Recently- Avenue R is another stop that the community wants to have as an SBS stop. However, that got rejected.

Slightly offtopic: @checkmatechamp13: How's the Staten Island Division's plan to revamp the express bus network. Hopefully they don't use this SIM idea

 

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

Those 2 stops were added due to community influence.  Especially Avenue L. Somehow, the NIMBY's in that area raised HELL to have a stop there.

The original SBS44+ plan was supposed to go express from Avenue U ---> Kings Highway ---> Junction in that order. Now by adding the Avenue L stop it adds more to the trip.

Recently- Avenue R is another stop that the community wants to have as an SBS stop. However, that got rejected.

Slightly offtopic: @checkmatechamp13: How's the Staten Island Division's plan to revamp the express bus network. Hopefully they don't use this SIM idea

4

I mean, it adds more time, but it also benefits those at the stop, so you have to consider the tradeoff of passenger-minutes saved by those traveling to/from Avenue L (whether it was to transfer to/from the B9 or because they lived/worked/shopped in the immediate area) vs. passenger-minutes lost by those passengers who have to sit through the extra stop. Not knowing the exact numbers, I'd still say it was a good idea to add it back, since Avenue L is a transfer point and the distance from Kings Highway to The Junction is fairly long (so you're effectively bypassing a whole section of Midwood)

With regards to the express plan, as far as I know, they'll propose it at the April committee meeting next week, set the date for the public hearing (probably some time in May), have the B/Os start picking the routes in June, and implement it in August. They say the logic in changing the nomenclature is so that people take a good look and make sure they're taking the best possible route. For example, if somebody lives in Mariners Harbor and currently takes the X12 to Downtown, they should take the SIM34, but if they travel to say, Union Square, they should take the SIM33. Saying that the X12 is being cut to Downtown and the X10B is being rerouted to Mariners Harbor might result in those people taking the X12 (because that's the route they're used to taking) and transferring to the subway (when they might've preferred a one-seat ride on the X10B).

Also, the off-peak route design they chose also makes it harder to match numbers to the current system. The SIM3c is basically the X12 rerouted to Port Richmond (So it's taking some X10C riders but bears little resemblance to the X10B), while the SIM4c is a combination of the X10 & X17. Also, keep in mind that NYCDOT is the one in charge of changing the bus stop signs, so they would incur most of the expenses (The MTA would just have to change the signage on the buses, which it would have to do anyway since it's changing the destinations and streets the buses travel down)

Routing-wise, I really don't like the off-peak plan (I actually think they had the right idea with having Downtown-only and Midtown-only routes, and should've expanded that idea to off-peak service and used those resources to provide more coverage on Staten Island). The X10/17 combination affects me personally, but at least I keep some semblance of service. There's areas on the South Shore, and even portions of the North Shore & Mid-Island where off-peak express service is warranted, but they won't be receiving it because some whiny riders wanted to keep their one-seat ride to Midtown.

Also the more I think about it, the more I don't like how they're handling the rush hour restructuring along the Hylan Blvd corridor (they say they might have short-turns, but between the short-turns and park-and-ride variants, it'll probably end up more confusing than the current system, and in any case ends up screwing over Eltingville riders by having them take the longer route through Hylan instead of Father Capodanno). The South Shore plan I always liked, and the North Shore plan I generally like (I think they should reroute the SIM15/35 to the Church/Broadway corridor and just leave the SM5/X8 as the only SI route on Water Street). 

The thing that we're all waiting for is the stop locations on the Manhattan end (which can change depending on what NYCDOT decides) and the frequencies and spans of the routes. From what the MTA officials said, the quicker runtimes will allow them to get more double trips in a given portion of a run (e.g. A B/O does an inbound trip and deadheads to do another inbound trip instead of just deadheading back to the depot), which will allow them to lengthen the spans. From what they said, the span on the rush hour routes will be universal, but I would hope that it would result in a longer span for all routes (something along the lines of the X5, X12, and X22/23/24). Doing anything less would screw over areas like Mariners Harbor/Arlington & Midland Beach/South Beach, as well as many neighborhoods on the South Shore (and considering some of those areas don't have local service after 7PM, or local service period, that's not acceptable).

A B/O told me that they already released the preliminary schedules, so hopefully those get released to the public sometime soon. The runtimes are something to consider too (hopefully the runtimes aren't ridiculously tight), but my main concerns are the spans and frequencies.

Edited April 16, 2018 by checkmatechamp13