Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[MysteriousBtrain]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Why are they still moving ahead with redesigning the express buses even though they got so much opposition from the Bronx portion? 

Reread what you posted, then look at the Bronx redesign, followed by the Queens and Brooklyn redesigns. 

Figure out which ones have X routes, which ones got feedback heard from, which one had a redesign of the redesign and then research what a bus network redesign is. After that, you should know why the Bronx express redesign was cancelled, and not (express) bus redesigns in general.

[checkmatechamp13]

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

They are all on-line. They are calling asking people questions and distributing flyers at subway stations “in-person.” Anything not to directly meet with the public. Remember how they used to make live presentations before community boards which they did before introducing new SBS routes? This is much more important and affects much more riders, yet no in-person meetings. Elected officials must make sure they happen or they should be voted out, 

I mean if they engage with the people at the subway stations the same way they engage with the people at the Zoom meetings, I have no problem with it. The future of everything is virtual...as long as the work gets done, who cares where exactly the meeting takes place?

[BrooklynBus]

24 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I mean if they engage with the people at the subway stations the same way they engage with the people at the Zoom meetings, I have no problem with it. The future of everything is virtual...as long as the work gets done, who cares where exactly the meeting takes place?

I totally disagree with you. Talking to people at subway stations just to ask them questions to support your predetermined conclusions does not qualify as community participation. Covid cannot be used as an excuse to avoid in person meetings to avoid discussions. They will ask the people if they would like the buses to be faster and 95 percent say yes, they will say that proves the people want fewer bus stops which is totally not the case. 
 

If they can’t have personal meetings because of Covid to introduce the Redesigns, why can they have personal meetings to introduce Omni? 
 

I worked for them for 25 years and know how hypocritical they can be. They can have the meetings on Zoom as long as they also meet with communities in person. They should be making presentations at every Community Board.

[checkmatechamp13]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I totally disagree with you. Talking to people at subway stations just to ask them questions to support your predetermined conclusions does not qualify as community participation. Covid cannot be used as an excuse to avoid in person meetings to avoid discussions. They will ask the people if they would like the buses to be faster and 95 percent say yes, they will say that proves the people want fewer bus stops which is totally not the case. 

If they can’t have personal meetings because of Covid to introduce the Redesigns, why can they have personal meetings to introduce Omni? 

I worked for them for 25 years and know how hypocritical they can be. They can have the meetings on Zoom as long as they also meet with communities in person. They should be making presentations at every Community Board.

I didn't say anything about "just" asking them so predetermined questions...they should get the same level of engagement as they would at an in-person meeting. 

For the record, I remember going to a Manhattan community board where information on the Bronx redesign was being presented. As soon as I mentioned an idea outside the community board limits (which I had discussed with the community board in question and they had no problem with it), the MTA representatives put their coats on and left the meeting, and I had to chase them out into the street to get them to listen to my comment.

My point is that it doesn't have any bearing whatsoever as to where the meeting is held. If the MTA wants to engage with the attendees meaningfully, they will do so, and if they don't want to engage, they won't do so. That is the issue that needs to be addressed.

As for OMNY, they're trying to make a use of the station agent position. If they want to give them information on the bus redesigns and have them engage with the customers, I have no issue with it. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I totally disagree with you. Talking to people at subway stations just to ask them questions to support your predetermined conclusions does not qualify as community participation. Covid cannot be used as an excuse to avoid in person meetings to avoid discussions. They will ask the people if they would like the buses to be faster and 95 percent say yes, they will say that proves the people want fewer bus stops which is totally not the case. 
 

If they can’t have personal meetings because of Covid to introduce the Redesigns, why can they have personal meetings to introduce Omni? 
 

I worked for them for 25 years and know how hypocritical they can be. They can have the meetings on Zoom as long as they also meet with communities in person. They should be making presentations at every Community Board.

I agree with you that there should be both. Unfortunately some people can't think outside of what works for them. If we're being honest and looking at demographics, local bus riders tend to be the poorest New Yorkers statistically speaking, so they may not have internet access or access to Zoom, or they may be elderly and not comfortable using Zoom, which I have personally experienced in Zoom meetings. They should have both to ensure that they are providing opportunities for everyone that is interested in participating to do so. That is why they held pop-up meetings in Queens for the Queens Redesign, specifically to engage with people like the elderly at times of the day when they could show up. In fact a number of elected officials criticized the  and said that there was not enough in-person engagement.

Interestingly enough, I have heard the argument at a number of Zoom meetings I've attended during the pandemic for various community events that such meetings tended to include a demographic that had the time and money to be able to attend Zoom meetings. They elaborated by saying that at the time of some events, it was people that had the luxury of working from home that could participate vs. people that were more working class or poor. I had never given it much thought, but it makes sense. Furthermore, they argued that it left out people that would be impacted most. Tying this to the Brooklyn Redesign, I could see that argument made particularly for local bus riders, and it is something that elected officials may complain about to the  on behalf of their constituents.

[BrooklynBus]

9 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I didn't say anything about "just" asking them so predetermined questions...they should get the same level of engagement as they would at an in-person meeting. 

For the record, I remember going to a Manhattan community board where information on the Bronx redesign was being presented. As soon as I mentioned an idea outside the community board limits (which I had discussed with the community board in question and they had no problem with it), the MTA representatives put their coats on and left the meeting, and I had to chase them out into the street to get them to listen to my comment.

My point is that it doesn't have any bearing whatsoever as to where the meeting is held. If the MTA wants to engage with the attendees meaningfully, they will do so, and if they don't want to engage, they won't do so. That is the issue that needs to be addressed.

As for OMNY, they're trying to make a use of the station agent position. If they want to give them information on the bus redesigns and have them engage with the customers, I have no issue with it. 

Of course it depends on where the meeting is held. How many people actually have time to stop to talk on their way to work? People are always rushing and are late. The most anyone would stop to talk is a minute or two. Hardly enough time to educate or absorb all the changes contemplated or even the one affecting them. The most that could be accomplished is handing out a link to the website, if someone even bothers to type it in. 
 

on the way home, people are not as rushed, but are still looking forward to dinner. Add to that the January cold temperatures and even fewer would want to stop. So location certainly matters. When people are more relaxed in a seated environment, which they only did when visiting Community Boards, people can relax and concentrate.

Also, I have been using computers since 1987, and still had a hard time figuring Remax and how to move the map to see the submit button. What about those less familiar? When I had my councilman’s office tell them they are discriminating against seniors, their reply was they have addressed seniors because they are going out to senior centers to distribute materials. Wow, I never realized that all seniors live in senior centers. The MTA must be so much smarter than I am to see that. 

[B35 via Church]

Lol.... I can lie to your face just as easily as I can across some device....

I can't bring myself to arguing over where/how these meetings the MTA holds should take place, because at the end of the day, they do what they want... I'm not one of these people that believes that my word is going to make THE (or even A) difference as to what any entity will end up implementing (let alone considering).... I'd say too many people go into these meetings with too high hopes & more often than not, they end up setting themselves up for sadness, anger, or both..... Your tears and/or level of concern does not trump that of the next common man's/woman's & guess what, the MTA banks on that shit..... When I consider the [MTA's bottom line] & [commuters wants/needs] being diametrically opposed to each other, along with this agency having shown time & time again that they exude zero remorse when it comes to screwing over commuters, wtf do you even do at that point.....

Don't remember which subreddit I saw it on, but I CTFU'd when someone said that the MTA is pro-car

 

11 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I didn't say anything about "just" asking them so predetermined questions...

You didn't... but that's what the MTA does.

Edited December 25, 2022 by B35 via Church

[Q43LTD]

Can I just say no to the to Spring St ? There's no viable turnaround in that area

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

Can I just say no to the to Spring St ? There's no viable turnaround in that area

Sure....

Just as much as I'd say no to the person on here that inquired on running B39's up to Union Sq.

[Q43LTD]

50 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Sure....

Just as much as I'd say no to the person on here that inquired on running B39's up to Union Sq.

And also no to Broadway Junction since the proposed B53 and 66 look like the old B40 on steroids

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol.... I can lie to your face just as easily as I can across some device....

I can't bring myself to arguing over where/how these meetings the MTA holds should take place, because at the end of the day, they do what they want... I'm not one of these people that believes that my word is going to make THE (or even A) difference as to what any entity will end up implementing (let alone considering).... I'd say too many people go into these meetings with too high hopes & more often than not, they end up setting themselves up for sadness, anger, or both..... Your tears and/or level of concern does not trump that of the next common man's/woman's & guess what, the MTA banks on that shit..... When I consider the [MTA's bottom line] & [commuters wants/needs] being diametrically opposed to each other, along with this agency having shown time & time again that they exude zero remorse when it comes to screwing over commuters, wtf do you even do at that point.....

Don't remember which subreddit I saw it on, but I CTFU'd when someone said that the MTA is pro-car

 

You didn't... but that's what the MTA does.

Occasionally, the MTA does make changes based on community input. But it can’t be one or two people or even 10 or 20. There has to be hundreds opposed with political support behind them before they are willing to give in.

In Queens, it took a letter signed by every single council person in the city for the MTA to say they will go back to the drawing board and do a second draft from scratch. Their first draft was based on a blank slate assuming there were no bus routes in Queens.

Fine is a city is just being built, but to say you will plan a system ignoring all current travel patterns shows you don’t know the first thing about planning. They acted like this was a school exercise. Then they hire consultants to do the planning anyway, so what are they even getting paid for? 

In 1978, it took them three months to return the B78 to its former route after 500 people protested in the streets. How often does something like that happen? 

I am afraid that’s what it is going to take to stop this Brooklyn plan. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Occasionally, the MTA does make changes based on community input. But it can’t be one or two people or even 10 or 20. There has to be hundreds opposed with political support behind them before they are willing to give in.

In Queens, it took a letter signed by every single council person in the city for the MTA to say they will go back to the drawing board and do a second draft from scratch. Their first draft was based on a blank slate assuming there were no bus routes in Queens.

Fine is a city is just being built, but to say you will plan a system ignoring all current travel patterns shows you don’t know the first thing about planning. They acted like this was a school exercise. Then they hire consultants to do the planning anyway, so what are they even getting paid for? 

In 1978, it took them three months to return the B78 to its former route after 500 people protested in the streets. How often does something like that happen? 

I am afraid that’s what it is going to take to stop this Brooklyn plan. 

The problem with Brooklyn now is some people are WFH, so not as many people care, but for people that still need the service, they will be screwed.

[MysteriousBtrain]

2 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Can I just say no to the to Spring St ? There's no viable turnaround in that area

 

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Sure....

Just as much as I'd say no to the person on here that inquired on running B39's up to Union Sq.

 

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

And also no to Broadway Junction since the proposed B53 and 66 look like the old B40 on steroids

Even as an ADA shuttle even extending the B39 east to Lorimer St is kinda iffy due to the Williamsburg bridge traffic. (Yes I listed it in my proposal earlier but that doesn't mean it's good) 

Also on the topic of possible Manhattan terminals of the B39 the proposed L1-4 bus shuttles proposed a layover near Lafayette Av and Houston St (near the complex)

Edited December 25, 2022 by MysteriousBtrain

[Gotham Bus Co.]

7 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Of course it depends on where the meeting is held. 

Any given day, time, or location will be "perfect" for some people and "impossible" for others. Who gets to decide exactly where and when each meeting should be held?

[BrooklynBus]

51 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Any given day, time, or location will be "perfect" for some people and "impossible" for others. Who gets to decide exactly where and when each meeting should be held?

The best time is weekdays around 7 PM. Most people work during the day. Any time it’s held is still better than no in person meetings at all.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

14 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The best time is weekdays around 7 PM. Most people work during the day. Any time it’s held is still better than no in person meetings at all.

Yes, but who gets to decide THE optimal date/time and THE optimal location?

[BrooklynBus]

Guess they do. This far, I haven’t had any problems with the locations or times they chose when they did have in person meetings.

 

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

19 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The best time is weekdays around 7 PM. Most people work during the day. Any time it’s held is still better than no in person meetings at all.

Negative. It's not the "best" time, especially considering that people who would be most affected by these changes are of lower income and are more likely to work odd-hour shifts. If anything, it would actually further empower those who have the ability to work from home or work typical business hours, i.e., from 9 to 5.

Edited December 26, 2022 by AlgorithmOfTruth

[BrooklynBus]

6 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Negative. It's not the "best" time, especially considering that people who would be most affected by these changes are of lower income and are more likely to work odd-hour shifts. If anything, it would actually further empower those who have the ability to work from home or work typical business hours, i.e., from 9 to 5.

If that is true, then they should have two meetings for each area, one in the afternoon and one in the evening. Whenever they choose, it’s still better than no in person meetings at all.

[BrooklynBus]

https://bklyner.com/mtas-brooklyn-bus-network-redesign-misses-mark/

[N6 Limited]

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

https://bklyner.com/mtas-brooklyn-bus-network-redesign-misses-mark/

Quote

Although the Existing Conditions Report shows that Brooklyn, especially Downtown Brooklyn, is growing, there are no investments to fill service gaps, and overall service is reduced.

This, I may not see an issue with. While a lot of housing is going up in downtown Brooklyn, the draw is probably the convenience to all the subway lines and local amenities. How much has bus ridership increased within the Downtown Brooklyn Area?

 

I’m also curious as to the ridership changes in Williamsburg since housing has increased there as well. Has there been in increase in bus ridership since Williamsburg has grown over the past 5-10 years,  or is it mostly just the  And bikes?

Edited December 28, 2022 by N6 Limited

[BrooklynBus]

26 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

This, I may not see an issue with. While a lot of housing is going up in downtown Brooklyn, the draw is probably the convenience to all the subway lines and local amenities. How much has bus ridership increased within the Downtown Brooklyn Area?

 

I’m also curious as to the ridership changes in Williamsburg since housing has increased there as well. Has there been in increase in bus ridership since Williamsburg has grown over the past 5-10 years,  or is it mostly just the  And bikes?

Ridership is closely linked with service provided. When service is increased, ridership increases, when it is decreased, ridership decreases. Not considering the pandemic, I would think that ridership has decreased in all areas, since service is being reduced in all areas. Service is a greater indicator than population or jobs, since as you stated, people have alternatives on how to get places. 
 

So as I stated, in a growing area, service needs to be increased, not merely rearranged or cut. 
 

Look at the example I cited with the B71. Before being discontinued in 2010, ridership on the route increased by 29 percent. That wasn’t due to increased population or increased jobs. It was due to the route being extended eastward to serve additional destination points. But the MTA discounted that info and discontinued the route anyway. If extended into Manhattan as suggested, ridership would go through the roof which is precisely the reason why the MTA won’t do it. They don’t want to give riders a choice between bus and subway even if the net is increased ridership by people not currently making the trip by mass transit.
 

They only want to cut service to improve their bottom line. They don’t give a damn about the riders.  

[B35 via Church]

8 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

This, I may not see an issue with. While a lot of housing is going up in downtown Brooklyn, the draw is probably the convenience to all the subway lines and local amenities. How much has bus ridership increased within the Downtown Brooklyn Area?

While true, this doesn't mean you ignore, or otherwise prioritize those people moving into those new bldg's in Downtown Brooklyn seeking the subway to/from Manhattan....  Putting this another way. housing isn't the only thing that's growing in Downtown Brooklyn... Jobs are also increasing.... The new wave (so to speak) are these mixed use bldg's, so there is an importance to not reduce service for those taking buses into Brooklyn from wherever else in Brooklyn....

8 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I’m also curious as to the ridership changes in Williamsburg since housing has increased there as well. Has there been in increase in bus ridership since Williamsburg has grown over the past 5-10 years,  or is it mostly just the  And bikes?

The latter.... However, I believe the lack of bus usage in Williamsburg has more to do with the current network itself (and quite frankly, the proposed network also).... It doesn't do much to spur new growth to/from (the heart of) Williamsburg from/to the rest of Brooklyn.... The people seeking the heart of Williamsburg want absolutely nothing to do with WBP, so that's another issue as far as bus usage in/out of the heart of Williamsburg is concerned...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

While true, this doesn't mean you ignore, or otherwise prioritize those people moving into those new bldg's in Downtown Brooklyn seeking the subway to/from Manhattan....  Putting this another way. housing isn't the only thing that's growing in Downtown Brooklyn... Jobs are also increasing.... The new wave (so to speak) are these mixed use bldg's, so there is an importance to not reduce service for those taking buses into Brooklyn from wherever else in Brooklyn....

100% correct. Not only that, but it's common knowledge that job growth is happening fastest in the outerboroughs.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BrooklynBus]

link to Facebook for Passengers United Zoom Meeting on the Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign on Jan 5 at 7:45 PM 
https://www.facebook.com/events/691201039256996?ref=newsfeed