Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[bobtehpanda]

On 2/28/2021 at 10:28 AM, B35 via Church said:

Lol.... The initial hype for Hudson Yards was so gargantuan that attempting to recreate that level of hype would likely fall on deaf ears.... There is a LOT of hate for the Hudson Yards project (even surprised me how much of it there is) & I'd say that one of the reasons was due to the sheer hype that surrounded it - considering what it is at its current juncture (albeit still being an unfinished project/product)....

It didn't help that as far as recent developments go, Hudson Yards had some extremely questionable things bolted onto it.

At the end of the day, BPC has nice little apartment blocks, park space, and playgrounds, which is not exactly groundbreaking but those are all fundamental things people want in a residential neighborhood.

Hudson Yards has the pine cone, a curvy bit of new High Line, and a shopping mall anchored by Neiman Marcus, which was so out of touch even the Times panned it, and the Times isn't exactly the paper of the people. No one wants a mall in Manhattan; look at the husk of Manhattan Mall a few blocks down.

Edited March 4, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[Cait Sith]

On 3/4/2021 at 3:53 AM, bobtehpanda said:

It didn't help that as far as recent developments go, Hudson Yards had some extremely questionable things bolted onto it.

At the end of the day, BPC has nice little apartment blocks, park space, and playgrounds, which is not exactly groundbreaking but those are all fundamental things people want in a residential neighborhood.

Hudson Yards has the pine cone, a curvy bit of new High Line, and a shopping mall anchored by Neiman Marcus, which was so out of touch even the Times panned it, and the Times isn't exactly the paper of the people. No one wants a mall in Manhattan; look at the husk of Manhattan Mall a few blocks down.

Which is also closing down, ironically.

[bobtehpanda]

11 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

Which is also closing down, ironically.

To be honest, even pre-pandemic I was wondering how long it was going to last. When I went while I was visiting for the holidays, it seemed like there were a lot of people visiting, but not buying anything. And I don't know how long it would be that New Yorkers and tourists would stay excited about yet another department store, particularly one with no historical connection to New York.

[B35 via Church]

On 3/1/2021 at 11:11 AM, ItsDavid said:

Absolutely not. Doing that will confuse people in 23 Av, 82nd St. The matter that the Q69 runs via 21st and Ditmars means that the Q33 after 82nd St and 83 St would become a new route or a route would make it, making many people confused. Its better to keep them seperate...

While you're not wrong, it isn't even about the confusion... It doesn't make sense from an operational standpoint.

On 3/4/2021 at 3:53 AM, bobtehpanda said:

It didn't help that as far as recent developments go, Hudson Yards had some extremely questionable things bolted onto it.

At the end of the day, BPC has nice little apartment blocks, park space, and playgrounds, which is not exactly groundbreaking but those are all fundamental things people want in a residential neighborhood.

Hudson Yards has the pine cone, a curvy bit of new High Line, and a shopping mall anchored by Neiman Marcus, which was so out of touch even the Times panned it, and the Times isn't exactly the paper of the people. No one wants a mall in Manhattan; look at the husk of Manhattan Mall a few blocks down.

In other words, Hudson Yards as a neighborhood/development/community is inauthentic as shit

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

To be honest, even pre-pandemic I was wondering how long it was going to last. When I went while I was visiting for the holidays, it seemed like there were a lot of people visiting, but not buying anything. And I don't know how long it would be that New Yorkers and tourists would stay excited about yet another department store, particularly one with no historical connection to New York.

You just described Hudson Yards in general there.

[Cait Sith]

On 3/7/2021 at 1:56 PM, bobtehpanda said:

To be honest, even pre-pandemic I was wondering how long it was going to last. When I went while I was visiting for the holidays, it seemed like there were a lot of people visiting, but not buying anything. And I don't know how long it would be that New Yorkers and tourists would stay excited about yet another department store, particularly one with no historical connection to New York.

Aside from food, which was what the mall was used for, no one was buying shit at the stores...everything was overpriced. Most of the merchandise at Neiman Marcus was in the 3-digit price range.

Malls like Hudson Yards is why I wish that the Manhattan Mall could make a comeback, but ever since Stern's closed down, that mall went downward pretty fast. I only went to Manhattan Mall for Electronics Boutique(what is now Gamestop) and McDonalds lol.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

Aside from food, which was what the mall was used for, no one was buying shit at the stores...everything was overpriced. Most of the merchandise at Neiman Marcus was in the 3-digit price range.

Malls like Hudson Yards is why I wish that the Manhattan Mall could make a comeback, but ever since Stern's closed down, that mall went downward pretty fast. I only went to Manhattan Mall for Electronics Boutique(what is now Gamestop) and McDonalds lol.

Well, Manhattan Mall is getting demolished for Penn South, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

[R10 2952]

21 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

Aside from food, which was what the mall was used for, no one was buying shit at the stores...everything was overpriced. Most of the merchandise at Neiman Marcus was in the 3-digit price range.

Malls like Hudson Yards is why I wish that the Manhattan Mall could make a comeback, but ever since Stern's closed down, that mall went downward pretty fast. I only went to Manhattan Mall for Electronics Boutique(what is now Gamestop) and McDonalds lol.

Marcus, Barney's, Saks, Brooks Bros., all ridiculous prices.  Only time I ever saw a reasonable price tag on that high-end stuff was shopping at the local Goodwill.

Edit: Just saw your new signature. 'Toxic guy from the forums' LMFAO...

Edited March 11, 2021 by R10 2952

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

Marcus, Barney's, Saks, Brooks Bros., all ridiculous prices.  Only time I ever saw a reasonable price tag on that high-end stuff was shopping at the local Goodwill.

Depends on what it is. If you want what they call "fast fashion" that you throw away after a few uses using cheap labor then yeah, the high-end stuff looks expensive. However, I have ties and dress shirts that are almost 10 years old in great condition, some that I bought, and other given as gifts. Looking at how long I've had it, the price is very reasonable.  Some things are made by hand, and these people earn real wages, as they are professionals in what they do.

You can buy a cheap pair of shoes from China, or you can buy comfy handmade shoes from Italy or England. You get what you pay for.

[aemoreira81]

On the local side, what about a redesign of eastern Northern Boulevard local bus service? I would propose the following, which would also mean the end of NICE route 20G.

1.Alternating buses during the rush hour, and every third bus during the off peak and weekends, up to about 10 PM, would be extended to Great Neck LIRR via the current 20G.

2. Weekdays, these runs would be full limited runs. Eastbound stops would be at Parsons, 149, 156, 165, Utopia, Francis Lewis, Bell, and all stops to Great Neck. Westbound, it would be all stops to Little Neck, then: Marathon, Douglaston, 223, and the reverse of eastbound (easier to schedule more even westbound service) and the Q13 is available on Northern as well between Sanford and Bell.

3. Existing local service would make all stops between Flushing and the city line. Some local trips would be operated with rigids.

I see minimal cost increases but increased ridership since longer buses would be on the route and the point of deadhead is correct in Flushing.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

1 hour ago, aemoreira81 said:

On the local side, what about a redesign of eastern Northern Boulevard local bus service? I would propose the following, which would also mean the end of NICE route 20G.

1.Alternating buses during the rush hour, and every third bus during the off peak and weekends, up to about 10 PM, would be extended to Great Neck LIRR via the current 20G.

2. Weekdays, these runs would be full limited runs. Eastbound stops would be at Parsons, 149, 156, 165, Utopia, Francis Lewis, Bell, and all stops to Great Neck. Westbound, it would be all stops to Little Neck, then: Marathon, Douglaston, 223, and the reverse of eastbound (easier to schedule more even westbound service) and the Q13 is available on Northern as well between Sanford and Bell.

3. Existing local service would make all stops between Flushing and the city line. Some local trips would be operated with rigids.

I see minimal cost increases but increased ridership since longer buses would be on the route and the point of deadhead is correct in Flushing.

 

West of 165th, Sanford seems to run faster than Northern in the peak direction. I would keep the Limited on Sanford.

[B35 via Church]

17 hours ago, aemoreira81 said:

On the local side, what about a redesign of eastern Northern Boulevard local bus service? I would propose the following, which would also mean the end of NICE route 20G.

1.Alternating buses during the rush hour, and every third bus during the off peak and weekends, up to about 10 PM, would be extended to Great Neck LIRR via the current 20G.

2. Weekdays, these runs would be full limited runs. Eastbound stops would be at Parsons, 149, 156, 165, Utopia, Francis Lewis, Bell, and all stops to Great Neck. Westbound, it would be all stops to Little Neck, then: Marathon, Douglaston, 223, and the reverse of eastbound (easier to schedule more even westbound service) and the Q13 is available on Northern as well between Sanford and Bell.

3. Existing local service would make all stops between Flushing and the city line. Some local trips would be operated with rigids.

I see minimal cost increases but increased ridership since longer buses would be on the route and the point of deadhead is correct in Flushing.

Alright, so you're inquiring about a "true" Northern Blvd. (east) route, but what would happen to the Q12 & Q13 frequency-wise with this redesign or whatever? I don't see a real need for a through Northern Blvd. service, with the Q12 & Q13 left as is.... Nor would I support a service cut of either of those routes, in order for something like that be implemented....

Also, why would there be that variance with the service pattern of the "local" portions in each direction of this apparent streamlined Northern Blvd. LTD service you're inquiring about? The EB buses serve all stops east of Bell, but the WB buses serve all stops b/w Great Neck & Little Neck.... EB ridership on the n20g isn't exactly light, east of Bell, within Queens (if that's the belief)....

21 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

West of 165th, Sanford seems to run faster than Northern in the peak direction. I would keep the Limited on Sanford.

Yeah, his idea/inquiry (routing-wise) is a shifting of the n20g from off Sanford....

[aemoreira81]

The idea is to get bigger buses into Great Neck to compensate, with increased service with rigids west of the Cross Island. (There would be 3 east destinations on the Q12: Springfield Boulevard (westbound service beginning at 223 Street), Nassau Boulevard (weekdays)/Glenwood Street (weekends), and Great Neck LIRR. (With rigids, there would be increased service at Bayside and points west, but the turnaround requires using a one-way 46 Avenue between Springfield and 223 (Cloverdale), which runs eastbound only. My plan accounts for that fact...you can start local service at 223. (As for less stops eastbound into Douglaston and Little Neck I concede that such should be reconsidered, perhaps with an elimination of Marathon Parkway both ways.)

Revised, the Limited stops would be: Parsons, 149, 156, 165 (on Sanford to this point), Utopia, Francis Lewis, Bell, Springfield, 223 (westbound only for transfer to local service), Douglaston, Little Neck, and all stops to Great Neck LIRR.

 

(Nassau Boulevard would be an extension down Little Neck Parkway, with a terminus opposite of the Q30 terminus.)

[Gotham Bus Co.]

1 hour ago, aemoreira81 said:

The idea is to get bigger buses into Great Neck to compensate, with increased service with rigids west of the Cross Island. (There would be 3 east destinations on the Q12: Springfield Boulevard (westbound service beginning at 223 Street), Nassau Boulevard (weekdays)/Glenwood Street (weekends), and Great Neck LIRR. (With rigids, there would be increased service at Bayside and points west, but the turnaround requires using a one-way 46 Avenue between Springfield and 223 (Cloverdale), which runs eastbound only. My plan accounts for that fact...you can start local service at 223. (As for less stops eastbound into Douglaston and Little Neck I concede that such should be reconsidered, perhaps with an elimination of Marathon Parkway both ways.)

Revised, the Limited stops would be: Parsons, 149, 156, 165 (on Sanford to this point), Utopia, Francis Lewis, Bell, Springfield, 223 (westbound only for transfer to local service), Douglaston, Little Neck, and all stops to Great Neck LIRR.

 

(Nassau Boulevard would be an extension down Little Neck Parkway, with a terminus opposite of the Q30 terminus.)

 

If the branch terminals are going to be so far apart, then maybe they should have separate numbers. (I suggest Q12 and Q14.)

 If the south branch runs down Little Neck Parkway, then maybe it should continue to Glen Oaks. 

 Why mix bus types? It would be more efficient for scheduling purposes to have all articulated buses or all standards.

[B35 via Church]

On 5/30/2021 at 12:50 PM, aemoreira81 said:

The idea is to get bigger buses into Great Neck to compensate, with increased service with rigids west of the Cross Island.

(There would be 3 east destinations on the Q12: Springfield Boulevard (westbound service beginning at 223 Street), Nassau Boulevard (weekdays)/Glenwood Street (weekends), and Great Neck LIRR. (

With rigids, there would be increased service at Bayside and points west, but the turnaround requires using a one-way 46 Avenue between Springfield and 223 (Cloverdale), which runs eastbound only. My plan accounts for that fact...you can start local service at 223. (As for less stops eastbound into Douglaston and Little Neck I concede that such should be reconsidered, perhaps with an elimination of Marathon Parkway both ways.)

Revised, the Limited stops would be: Parsons, 149, 156, 165 (on Sanford to this point), Utopia, Francis Lewis, Bell, Springfield, 223 (westbound only for transfer to local service), Douglaston, Little Neck, and all stops to Great Neck LIRR.

(Nassau Boulevard would be an extension down Little Neck Parkway, with a terminus opposite of the Q30 terminus.)

In other words, you think artics are being wasted on the Q12 in general & that Glenwood st. isn't a viable full time terminal.

Something didn't sit well with me about how this was framed from jump; "redesign of eastern Northern Boulevard local bus service".... That was your way of being cryptic .... Opting to phase out the n20 with a Q12 extension to LIRR Great Neck (via Northern Blvd. from Downtown Flushing, onward) & have local Q12's run down to HHE/LNP is tantamount to throwing a monkey-wrench into the logistics of running the route (esp. in regards to its fleet choice).... Simply put, it's not the MTA's problem that NICE bus is inadequately running the n20G.... The MTA need not be all encompassing, especially these days.

A simpler solution would be to extend (and have more) Q12 short turns running to Springfield & leave the n20 as is.... The dichotomy is b/w the Q12 & the Q13, not between the Q12 & the n20..... Running Q12's past Glenwood st. to LIRR Great Neck would create more problems than they would solve... As for having Q12's running down to HHE, I used to think this was a good idea, but quite frankly, that part of LNP is basically express bus (and car) country... May as well leave buses (Q12's) at Glenwood....

Around Springfield, what you're pointing out about 46th being one way would actually be a benefit - you don't have to worry about narrow 2-way streets in that area... You could even add a stop across the street from Lakeside Towers (which would be alongside parkland & not in front of someone's house).... So, have the last stop & layover spot for a Bayside bound bus be the near side of 223rd/Northern (as in, SE corner)... It would also be the first Flushing bound pickup stop (the next stop after that would be the current WB Springfield (well 219th) stop... The current WB 223rd st. stop would be used for anything coming from east of that point....

Lastly, I'm not sure what "a terminus opposite of the Q30 terminus" is supposed to mean... Just have it terminate with the Q30 in front the shopping plaza, if that's the idea regarding having buses run down in that immediate area...

On 5/30/2021 at 2:20 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

1) If the branch terminals are going to be so far apart, then maybe they should have separate numbers. (I suggest Q12 and Q14.)

The problem I'm more having is the retaining of locals on Sanford, but having these LTD's running along Northern from Downtown Flushing to City Line (and beyond)...

On 5/30/2021 at 2:20 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

3) Why mix bus types? It would be more efficient for scheduling purposes to have all articulated buses or all standards.

See my reply to him above.... This whole plan or whatever is his way of trying to right-size service.... Quite frankly, it isn't all that smart to want to run 40 footers b/w Flushing & (basically) the CIP anyway.... That's the main part of the Q12 that warrants artics.

Edited July 10, 2021 by B35 via Church

[Gotham Bus Co.]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Quite frankly, it isn't all that smart to want to run 40 footers b/w Flushing & (basically) the CIP anyway.... That's the main part of the Q12 that warrants artics.

 

Yes, but forcing passengers to switch buses at the CIP seems woefully inefficient and user-unfriendly. If you're using artics for the "inner zone" of the route, keep the same buses for the "outer zone" (but maybe turn some short at Bell or divert them to QCC). 

 

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The problem I'm more having is the retaining of locals on Sanford, but having these LTD's running along Northern from Downtown Flushing to City Line (and beyond)...

I live along the Q12 and Q13, and I've found that Sanford actually tends to flow a bit faster than Northern (while allowing for drop-offs and pick-ups closer to the subway). Having locals run faster than Limiteds seems counter-intuitive.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Yes, but forcing passengers to switch buses at the CIP seems woefully inefficient and user-unfriendly. If you're using artics for the "inner zone" of the route, keep the same buses for the "outer zone" (but maybe turn some short at Bell or divert them to QCC).

People don't embark on short turns for that reason anyway, but that's besides the point...

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

I live along the Q12 and Q13, and I've found that Sanford actually tends to flow a bit faster than Northern (while allowing for drop-offs and pick-ups closer to the subway). Having locals run faster than Limiteds seems counter-intuitive.

Yeah, there's this thinking that Northern is SO much faster than Sanford, when it's not really the case.... It's unfair to compare Sanford at its worst, to Northern at it's best (traffic flow wise).... That's what I think is going on here with this whole shifting the Q12 to Northern, west of 166th, to/from Downtown Flushing....

Edited July 10, 2021 by B35 via Church

[SoSpectacular]

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, there's this thinking that Northern is SO much faster than Sanford, when it's not really the case.... It's unfair to compare Sanford at its worst, to Northern at it's best (traffic flow wise).... That's what I think is going on here with this whole shifting the Q12 to Northern, west of 166th, to/from Downtown Flushing....

Having spent 22 years of my life living on Sanford Avenue I second this. Moved out of Flushing back in early 2019 so not too sure what that's looking like over there nowadays

[bobtehpanda]

On 7/11/2021 at 1:40 AM, SoSpectacular said:

Having spent 22 years of my life living on Sanford Avenue I second this. Moved out of Flushing back in early 2019 so not too sure what that's looking like over there nowadays

I mean, Northern/Main has always been a shitshow with all the traffic going from Downtown Flushing to the Whitestone/GCP. I doubt that's changed.

[B35 via Church]

On 8/24/2021 at 11:51 AM, bobtehpanda said:

I mean, Northern/Main has always been a shitshow with all the traffic going from Downtown Flushing to the Whitestone/GCP. I doubt that's changed.

...Then there's the poor souls called Met fans that have to waste time, money, and (quite frankly) eyesight watching that sorry ass team, clogging up the area as well

But yeah, things haven't changed with that.

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

...Then there's the poor souls called Met fans that have to waste time, money, and (quite frankly) eyesight watching that sorry ass team, clogging up the area as well

But yeah, things haven't changed with that.

Well, the Wilpons are gone, so at least one positive in the area.

[Q43LTD]

10 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

...Then there's the poor souls called Met fans that have to waste time, money, and (quite frankly) eyesight watching that sorry ass team, clogging up the area as well

But yeah, things haven't changed with that.

Yeah, first place for most of the year, and then start choking 

[B35 via Church]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:04 AM, Q43LTD said:

Yeah, first place for most of the year, and then start choking 

Come to think of it, in terms of public transit use, while I do see people getting off at Citifield (well, they label it the Willets Point station stop) off the Q48, I don't think I've ever seen anyone getting off (from either direction) for a Met game itself.... From Flushing, that makes sense; being that service is way more frequent (and quicker)... From areas north of Roosevelt from off/around the Q48 OTOH, those ppl. that get off at that stop in question, by far & large, are seeking the park... Mainly recreational soccer players, but I do see ppl. with tennis racquets on occasion....

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Come to think of it, in terms of public transit use, while I do see people getting off at Citifield (well, they label it the Willets Point station stop) off the Q48, I don't think I've ever seen anyone getting off (from either direction) for a Met game itself.... From Flushing, that makes sense; being that service is way more frequent (and quicker)... From areas north of Roosevelt from off/around the Q48 OTOH, those ppl. that get off at that stop in question, by far & large, are seeking the park... Mainly recreational soccer players, but I do see ppl. with tennis racquets on occasion....

Honestly, if you asked the vast majority of people walking around in Downtown Flushing about the Q48 you'd probably get a blank stare. It's not particularly frequent.

To be quite honest, would it have ridership if Corona Park wasn't a major PITA to get into on foot?

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Honestly, if you asked the vast majority of people walking around in Downtown Flushing about the Q48 you'd probably get a blank stare. It's not particularly frequent.

To be quite honest, would it have ridership if Corona Park wasn't a major PITA to get into on foot?

I find it interesting (to say the least) that you have as many riders that are either completely oblivious, or lack the specificity in recalling/knowing the bus route number of relatively nearby bus routes they don't utilize.... Using my area as an example, you'll get few ppl. refer to the B8 as the B8 - instead, you'll hear a lot of *the bus on Avenue D*, or something to that effect.... The B12 is commonly referred to as "the bus that stop by the hospital"...

Anyway, to your question... Nope, as folks from the north catch the subway at 111th... That stop would loom very useless.

Edited August 29, 2021 by B35 via Church

[R10 2952]

Either way, Flushing Meadows Park has always been a giant mindf**k, and I say this as someone who grew up using the place.  Trying to find a straight path through the park from one neighborhood to the other? Next to impossible LOL.

Was fun for recreational biking, though.

Edited September 18, 2021 by R10 2952