Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

I mean, its not being selfish. It would make sense to do a redesign now while ridership is low so when the pandemic is over, people will have already been familiar with the new bus network system.

Yes, it makes TOTAL sense to change everyone's route when ridership is low and piss off your riders when you are trying to get them back. If these redesigns were a hit, maybe I could agree, but overall, most of the riding public don't like what has been proposed.

[Lawrence St]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, it makes TOTAL sense to change everyone's route when ridership is low and piss off your riders when you are trying to get them back. If these redesigns were a hit, maybe I could agree, but overall, most of the riding public don't like what has been proposed.

What is with you and the attitude lately? Not everyone is going to agree with you, sheesh.

How are you going to piss off riders? Do another draft plan with the feedback from the first plan and everything will be fine. The Bronx redesign was fine and is ready to be implemented.

[MysteriousBtrain]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, it makes TOTAL sense to change everyone's route when ridership is low and piss off your riders when you are trying to get them back. If these redesigns were a hit, maybe I could agree, but overall, most of the riding public don't like what has been proposed.

The only redesign that would be possible to implement rn is the Bronx local redesign and even so I feel it's best not to implement it now since ridership isn't what it is now.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

What is with you and the attitude lately? Not everyone is going to agree with you, sheesh.

How are you going to piss off riders? Do another draft plan with the feedback from the first plan and everything will be fine. The Bronx redesign was fine and is ready to be implemented.

Oh you don't have to agree with me. I'm not going off of guesses. I'm going off of what people that use the system have said.  They made it abundantly clear to the  that they don't like the plan, so it's not about what I think. It's about what the riding public is saying, and that's what matters. 

How will the  piss off riders? By ignoring what their riders have said, which is that they DON'T like the proposals.  As far as the Bronx and Queens goes, only the Bronx local bus plan was approved, and that was after HEAVY pushback from a number of communities to NOT change a number of routes. They have a long ways to go.  I know you don't follow what's going on, but I have been in direct contact with the  and know firsthand what sort of feedback they have been getting because I have attended a number of public events with angry commuters, including one in my own neighborhood where hundreds of angry people showed up about the plan to change their routes. I met with Mark Holmes and Sarah Wyss back in November 2019 to discuss all of the Bronx express bus lines. They asked for feedback and I told them what people thought and they didn't believe me. Well when they came up to Riverdale, they got an earful.  Sarah Wyss didn't attend, but Mark Holmes was there with Jessica Cignarella and Craig Cipriano.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

The only redesign that would be possible to implement rn is the Bronx local redesign and even so I feel it's best not to implement it now since ridership isn't what it is now.

You are absolutely correct. Notice that very little of the Bronx local lines changed in areas like Country Club, Pelham Bay, etc. Why? Because the residents there were pissed and Councilman Gjonaj met with the  and told them their changes were not acceptable, so they had to keep some lines as is. There is a long-time community activist that I know in Country Club who spearheaded that whole pushback, and he has worked before to stop the  from making changes there.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

41 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

What is with you and the attitude lately? Not everyone is going to agree with you, sheesh.

How are you going to piss off riders? Do another draft plan with the feedback from the first plan and everything will be fine. The Bronx redesign was fine and is ready to be implemented.

Just one example of feedback from Queens residents...

https://qns.com/2020/01/mta-bus-redesign-proposal-means-service-cutbacks-for-express-bus-riders-in-bayside-and-whitestone/

Quote

The agency unveiled the draft proposal at the end of December and called on the community to provide feedback at a series of public workshops across Queens. But residents and politicians complained that eastern Queens residents were once again left out of the transportation discussion since the MTA failed to schedule workshops in neighborhoods like Bayside and Whitestone.

“In northeast #Queens, where there is no subway access and limited public transportation options for commuters, the MTA should be increasing and improving bus service, not creating a more desolate transportation desert. We deserve a seat at the table,” said Councilman Paul Vallone on Twitter in response to a Patch story on this issue.

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Cait Sith]

1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

The only redesign that would be possible to implement rn is the Bronx local redesign and even so I feel it's best not to implement it now since ridership isn't what it is now.

To be fair, the changes to the Bronx were minimal at best. A lot of what was originally proposed were reverted.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

To be fair, the changes to the Bronx were minimal at best. A lot of what was originally proposed were reverted.

In my mind, the  is not in a position to rush this and not get it right, especially in Queens.  

[checkmatechamp13]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Irrelevant either way, since they are not doing anything until the pandemic is over. You'll have to live with it and your selfish wants.

Wanting service to be improved is selfish....OK.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Wanting service to be improved is selfish....OK.....

Yes, given how oblivious you are to what was stated before.  Let's just get on with it, regardless of what the objections are, as long as I can get what I want.

[checkmatechamp13]

35 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, given how oblivious you are to what was stated before.  Let's just get on with it, regardless of what the objections are, as long as I can get what I want.

So what precisely do I want that is supposedly so selfish?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

So what precisely do I want that is supposedly so selfish?

I have no idea quite frankly. My guess is you want them to move on with the Staten Island local bus redesign, but I would prefer that they do this thoroughly and not rushed. There are so many neighborhoods that are bus dependent, and with the  , they are not one for wanting to go back and adding service once they take it away. If their true intentions were to make the routes better, I'd be all up for the redesigns because some lines could be improved, but overall, they have an ulterior motive, which is to cut service (and yes, I know they spent more money to do the Staten Island express bus redesign and ultimately did so for the Bronx local bus redesign, but the Bronx local bus redesign faced a lot of backlash, and they really just made some tweaks at the end). There's nothing wrong with making the service more efficient, but that should be across the board. Their schedules should also be revised to reflect realistic runtimes, so that riders are truly benefitting from a faster ride.

One of my criticisms that I mentioned when I met with them on the Bronx express bus redesign was they want to move some lines off of congested expressways, but they are not working with the DOT to get them either bus lanes or HOV lanes where they need them, and so for all of the re-routes, the trips may not be much faster, as they may be caught in similar traffic.  Remember when they tried to pack almost all of the SIM lines down 5th Av? That was a disaster.

Staten Island needs better interborough connectivity, and as you said, more routes that connect to New Jersey. Everything is still tied too much to the Ferry.

Queens needs a lot more work, and I don't think this is the time to do the redesign. I don't know how people are supposed to get used to the new routes when a lot of them are not even using public transportation now. A lot of the people riding now are not the regular riders on some lines. They are casual riders.

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

What I'm not understanding is this rush to amend this redesign, nor this faith that the MTA will somehow quote-unquote get it right (with "right" being subjective, of course).... Their motives behind these redesigns & what we as riders would want to have ultimately result from these redesigns, are two VERY different things.... It appears to me that some of you actually believe that the MTA truly & wholly considers the plight of us riders when/while concocting these redesigns...

The MTA has not shown me that they are truly in it for us riders, so until THAT foundation changes, I have absolutely nothing to be eager for, or towards....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

What I'm not understanding is this rush to amend this redesign, nor this faith that the MTA will somehow quote-unquote get it right (with "right" being subjective, of course).... Their motives behind these redesigns & what we as riders would want to have ultimately result from these redesigns, are two VERY different things.... It appears to me that some of you actually believe that the MTA truly & wholly considers the plight of us riders when/while concocting these redesigns...

The MTA has not shown me that they are truly in it for us riders, so until THAT foundation changes, I have absolutely nothing to be eager for, or towards....

The other elephant in the room is they have a chronic driver shortage. It has been this way for a long time now, and they were cutting out a lot of things from the operations side to cut costs. I have spoken with a number of dispatchers, superintendents and the like that admit this. Some of the complaining that I've been doing and other angry riders has led to them putting some of that back, but they have become so used to operating like this that it's hard to switch course now, so that's another reason for the redesign. You can cut service this way, and not have to worry about needing so many drivers. That crunch that they have of their operating costs going up has not gone away, and that is something that people have completely forgotten about.

They will continue to see where they can cut. Right now there are station agents complaining yet again about the  trying to eliminate those jobs.

[Lawrence St]

31 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The other elephant in the room is they have a chronic driver shortage. It has been this way for a long time now, and they were cutting out a lot of things from the operations side to cut costs. I have spoken with a number of dispatchers, superintendents and the like that admit this. Some of the complaining that I've been doing and other angry riders has led to them putting some of that back, but they have become so used to operating like this that it's hard to switch course now, so that's another reason for the redesign. You can cut service this way, and not have to worry about needing so many drivers. That crunch that they have of their operating costs going up has not gone away, and that is something that people have completely forgotten about.

They will continue to see where they can cut. Right now there are station agents complaining yet again about the  trying to eliminate those jobs.

Well what exactly is the point of station agents right now? I dont want anyone loosing their job, but all they do is sit in the booth and watch a movie, and get an attitude when someone comes up to ask them a question.

[Bill from Maspeth]

18 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Wanting service to be improved is selfish....OK.....

On the whole, the proposals are NOT service improvements.

[Bill from Maspeth]

45 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Well what exactly is the point of station agents right now? I dont want anyone loosing their job, but all they do is sit in the booth and watch a movie, and get an attitude when someone comes up to ask them a question.

Prove to me that station agents are watching movies while on duty.  That is prohibited just like a train operator or conductor talking or texting on a cell phone while operating.  Furthermore, if you ever see a station agent watching movies while on duty you should report it. 

As for an attitude when an agent is asked a question, it is easy to complain and remember the occasional one with an attitude.  Those are the encounters you remember.   Again, if you feel you were not treated with respect by ANY transit worker, you can complain to MTA.  You can easily send them an EMail.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Bill from Maspeth

[Lawrence St]

23 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Prove to me that station agents are watching movies while on duty.  That is prohibited just like a train operator or conductor talking or texting on a cell phone while operating.  Furthermore, if you ever see a station agent watching movies while on duty you should report it. 

As for an attitude when an agent is asked a question, it is easy to complain and remember the occasional one with an attitude.  Those are the encounters you remember.   Again, if you feel you were not treated with respect by ANY transit worker, you can complain to MTA.  You can easily send them an EMail.

Dude, walk into 90% of the stations and there's a station agent doing something they're not suppose to be doing.

[checkmatechamp13]

18 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I have no idea quite frankly.

Enough said....

16 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

What I'm not understanding is this rush to amend this redesign, nor this faith that the MTA will somehow quote-unquote get it right (with "right" being subjective, of course).... Their motives behind these redesigns & what we as riders would want to have ultimately result from these redesigns, are two VERY different things.... It appears to me that some of you actually believe that the MTA truly & wholly considers the plight of us riders when/while concocting these redesigns...

The MTA has not shown me that they are truly in it for us riders, so until THAT foundation changes, I have absolutely nothing to be eager for, or towards....

The thing is that I believe that they are capable of getting it "right", even if it requires tons of public/political pressure. I'll put it to you this way, the end result will be an improved bus system, even if they are doing it "against their will" so to speak. For example, with the Staten Island express bus system, the initial rollout was an absolute disaster I'll admit, but once the dust settled in April 2019, I'd say that objectively, the system as a whole was better than it was pre-redesign. (Although there are definitely some issues left to fix, some of which were pre-existing, and some of which were created by the redesign). But they did say that once it comes time to do the local system, they'll take a second look at the express bus system and see what improvements are left to make. 

The same with the Bronx redesign. Specifically with regards to the local bus system, I'd say their proposed setup is better than what we have at the moment, although there is definitely room for improvement (and I do believe that with enough public pressure, those improvements can be implemented).

And remember that the change in the the redesign process itself was in part due to public feedback (in large part due to my own feedback). I said that the Staten Island redesign report should've been more than just a little Powerpoint...it should've had statistics justifying their decisions, it should've had the proposed span and frequency of the new routes...and that ended up being the process that they followed for the following boroughs. The SIM redesign pretty much blew up in their face, but I think that was the wakeup call for them to realize the importance of public feedback (and also basic proofreading...the errors in the August 2018 SIM schedules should've been caught long before they reached the public eye...let alone were actually implemented). 

The other issue is...if not now then when? Another thing to consider is that we still have the "aura" (for lack of a better term...I really can't think of of one) of Andy Byford and his customer-focused attitude. If they wait too long, it'll be back to "business as usual"

2 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

On the whole, the proposals are NOT service improvements.

For Queens, it is debatable. I saw a lot of good and a lot of bad, but I do believe it is possible to make a proposal that keeps most of the good and gets rid of most of the bad.

Edited February 10, 2021 by checkmatechamp13

[jaf0519]

3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The same with the Bronx redesign. Specifically with regards to the local bus system, I'd say their proposed setup is better than what we have at the moment, although there is definitely room for improvement (and I do believe that with enough public pressure, those improvements can be implemented).

The other issue is...if not now then when? Another thing to consider is that we still have the "aura" (for lack of a better term...I really can't think of of one) of Andy Byford and his customer-focused attitude. If they wait too long, it'll be back to "business as usual"

For Queens, it is debatable. I saw a lot of good and a lot of bad, but I do believe it is possible to make a proposal that keeps most of the good and gets rid of most of the bad.

This exactly. While I personally feel that comparing the Bronx and Queens redesigns, the MTA was definitely too safe at the proposals overall. But things like the changes to the Bx36 and other routes would leave the system better off then them being held off until the end of the pandemic. 

With Queens, I feel like the problems overshadow the good not necessarily because there are more, but because they are worse. There is definitely a lot of good from the Queens redesign. There is also some bad. However the bad is horrible in a lot of cases. 

I’ll just use buses in my area as an example.

Firstly today the local buses in my area are the Q25, Q25 LTD, Q34, Q64, Q65, Q65 LTD and the express are the QM4 and QM44.

• Q25, Q25 LTD, Q34 to the QT16: Honestly no problems. Increase frequency somewhat though.
  • This I consider Great (++)
• Q64 to QT14: Personally as I used to have an internship commute that included the Q64, Q60, Q10 or Q37, and Q55, I would have loved this as it reduced that trip to two buses. I like the reduced stops on Jewel and the only issue is potential for delays due to Jewel ands Lefferts not having too much road space.
  • Though there are some problem potentials, overall I consider this okay
• Q65 and Q65 LTD to the QT65: I think it is great that they are using the Q65 as a connection between north of Northern and south of Flushing without serving Downtown Flushing. There is not a need for every bus to serve Flushing. Therefore I am not against the reduction in service as demand would also be reduced. The routes that passengers would folk to like the QT16 and the 46 Ave buses should be slightly increased to cover it. At the most a rush hour only purple bus between Main St  and Electchester-Jewel Ave or maybe Queens College would be the most i would add. 
  • Overall is Good (+) or just okay
• QT87 New Route: Definitely like the coverage provided. Frequency for 73 Ave is fine as higher ridership areas have QT33 east of 188 St. If I were planning it I don’t know if I would have even given it weekend service east of Main St, so I think the MTA is good with that.
  • Overall is Great (++) surpassed my expectations 
• QM4 and QM44 to the QMT162: No problem with the elimination of off-peak service. I can recall many trips where I was one of two or three passengers in both directions. It’s nice but the MTA should not have to pay for a private shuttle. Don’t necessarily have any issues with the cut to the 3 Ave express, but maybe move the remaining bus off 6 Ave to Madison so it is in the middle. For any coverage maybe have the off peak QMT165’s stop at 164 St/HHE and Kissena/HHE before getting on the highway.
  • Overall is Good (+) 

Just by looking at these routes, the MTA didn’t do a bad job. It wasn’t an A+ job, but it was fine. It is routes like the Q53 and Q49 that were destroyed that really make it seem like the whole redesign is atrocious when there is more good then bad.

Also, I take the Q46 to St. John’s. Normally that is fine but because of the pandemic and safety measures meaning entrances on campus are closed, whenever I have class my walk to class went from maybe 200 feet from the bus stop to over 8/10 of a mile. This has made me think, why not have the QT32 operate via the Grand Central Pkwy service road between Kew Gardens and 188 St. Even add stops so there is a connection to buses at Main St, Parsons Blvd, 164 St, Utopia, and 188 St. Yeah it wouldn’t be a super limited but it would add more coverage in the area.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

This exactly. While I personally feel that comparing the Bronx and Queens redesigns, the MTA was definitely too safe at the proposals overall. But things like the changes to the Bx36 and other routes would leave the system better off then them being held off until the end of the pandemic. 

With Queens, I feel like the problems overshadow the good not necessarily because there are more, but because they are worse. There is definitely a lot of good from the Queens redesign. There is also some bad. However the bad is horrible in a lot of cases. 

I’ll just use buses in my area as an example.

Firstly today the local buses in my area are the Q25, Q25 LTD, Q34, Q64, Q65, Q65 LTD and the express are the QM4 and QM44.

• Q25, Q25 LTD, Q34 to the QT16: Honestly no problems. Increase frequency somewhat though.
  • This I consider Great (++)
• Q64 to QT14: Personally as I used to have an internship commute that included the Q64, Q60, Q10 or Q37, and Q55, I would have loved this as it reduced that trip to two buses. I like the reduced stops on Jewel and the only issue is potential for delays due to Jewel ands Lefferts not having too much road space.
  • Though there are some problem potentials, overall I consider this okay
• Q65 and Q65 LTD to the QT65: I think it is great that they are using the Q65 as a connection between north of Northern and south of Flushing without serving Downtown Flushing. There is not a need for every bus to serve Flushing. Therefore I am not against the reduction in service as demand would also be reduced. The routes that passengers would folk to like the QT16 and the 46 Ave buses should be slightly increased to cover it. At the most a rush hour only purple bus between Main St  and Electchester-Jewel Ave or maybe Queens College would be the most i would add. 
  • Overall is Good (+) or just okay
• QT87 New Route: Definitely like the coverage provided. Frequency for 73 Ave is fine as higher ridership areas have QT33 east of 188 St. If I were planning it I don’t know if I would have even given it weekend service east of Main St, so I think the MTA is good with that.
  • Overall is Great (++) surpassed my expectations 
• QM4 and QM44 to the QMT162: No problem with the elimination of off-peak service. I can recall many trips where I was one of two or three passengers in both directions. It’s nice but the MTA should not have to pay for a private shuttle. Don’t necessarily have any issues with the cut to the 3 Ave express, but maybe move the remaining bus off 6 Ave to Madison so it is in the middle. For any coverage maybe have the off peak QMT165’s stop at 164 St/HHE and Kissena/HHE before getting on the highway.
  • Overall is Good (+) 

Just by looking at these routes, the MTA didn’t do a bad job. It wasn’t an A+ job, but it was fine. It is routes like the Q53 and Q49 that were destroyed that really make it seem like the whole redesign is atrocious when there is more good then bad.

Also, I take the Q46 to St. John’s. Normally that is fine but because of the pandemic and safety measures meaning entrances on campus are closed, whenever I have class my walk to class went from maybe 200 feet from the bus stop to over 8/10 of a mile. This has made me think, why not have the QT32 operate via the Grand Central Pkwy service road between Kew Gardens and 188 St. Even add stops so there is a connection to buses at Main St, Parsons Blvd, 164 St, Utopia, and 188 St. Yeah it wouldn’t be a super limited but it would add more coverage in the area.

Of course you don't have a problem with some cuts, as it does not impact you... That entire area of Electchester has no subway access, so I am opposed to cutting off-peak service. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

13 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The other elephant in the room is they have a chronic driver shortage. It has been this way for a long time now, and they were cutting out a lot of things from the operations side to cut costs. I have spoken with a number of dispatchers, superintendents and the like that admit this. Some of the complaining that I've been doing and other angry riders has led to them putting some of that back, but they have become so used to operating like this that it's hard to switch course now, so that's another reason for the redesign. You can cut service this way, and not have to worry about needing so many drivers. That crunch that they have of their operating costs going up has not gone away, and that is something that people have completely forgotten about.

They will continue to see where they can cut. Right now there are station agents complaining yet again about the  trying to eliminate those jobs.

Too many commuters are being duped & spoofed into believing that this redesign is being done for their benefit..... There are way too many folks (that quite frankly, don't peruse sites such as this one) that are completely oblivious to the antics this agency resorts to.... All my family members that's worked for the MTA are now retired - and every single last one of them have expressed in some manner to me that they're glad they got out when they did.... My aunt (retired token booth clerk; well, station agent) is actually glad I didn't end up working for the TA - "with your intolerance for bullshit, you'd quit on the first day, I know you".

Telling.

12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Well what exactly is the point of station agents right now? I dont want anyone loosing their job, but all they do is sit in the booth and watch a movie, and get an attitude when someone comes up to ask them a question.

For the most part, I concur with the point - although I personally don't care what it is specifically that they're doing, that they're not supposed to be doing....

You specify watching a movie.... I see no fundamental difference b/w those s/a's you see/claim are watching movies or whatever, and the ones that's been caught dozing off on the job (for example)....

9 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The thing is that I believe that they are capable of getting it "right", even if it requires tons of public/political pressure. I'll put it to you this way, the end result will be an improved bus system, even if they are doing it "against their will" so to speak. For example, with the Staten Island express bus system, the initial rollout was an absolute disaster I'll admit, but once the dust settled in April 2019, I'd say that objectively, the system as a whole was better than it was pre-redesign. (Although there are definitely some issues left to fix, some of which were pre-existing, and some of which were created by the redesign). But they did say that once it comes time to do the local system, they'll take a second look at the express bus system and see what improvements are left to make. 

The same with the Bronx redesign. Specifically with regards to the local bus system, I'd say their proposed setup is better than what we have at the moment, although there is definitely room for improvement (and I do believe that with enough public pressure, those improvements can be implemented).

And remember that the change in the the redesign process itself was in part due to public feedback (in large part due to my own feedback). I said that the Staten Island redesign report should've been more than just a little Powerpoint...it should've had statistics justifying their decisions, it should've had the proposed span and frequency of the new routes...and that ended up being the process that they followed for the following boroughs. The SIM redesign pretty much blew up in their face, but I think that was the wakeup call for them to realize the importance of public feedback (and also basic proofreading...the errors in the August 2018 SIM schedules should've been caught long before they reached the public eye...let alone were actually implemented). 

The other issue is...if not now then when? Another thing to consider is that we still have the "aura" (for lack of a better term...I really can't think of of one) of Andy Byford and his customer-focused attitude. If they wait too long, it'll be back to "business as usual"

The word it appears that you're looking for in regards to Andy Byford, is the imprint that he left behind.... Most certainly sorely needed.

You emphasize capability as if that potential to get it "right" supersedes what the MTA will allow.... Potential means squat if it never comes to fruition.... You're of the belief that it will ultimately end up being an improved system... My belief is that they're not trying to improve too much of anything for the commuter, nor will there be any accidental or otherwise coincidental occurrence of this redesign resulting in a system-wide improvement (not saying you're saying/implicating that, but I'm still making the point).... I would go as far as to say that they're intentionally worsening the system overall, for reasons VG8's mentioned in this page of the discussion alone...

AFAIC, the time for giving the MTA the benefit of the doubt has long past; which is what I'm essentially getting at when I mention the foundation of the MTA needing a serious change... Very good chance I'll be maggot food before that happens.... Hope you live long enough to see that transpire.... The notion of a public transit agency that's been known to f*** people over, being forthright with their concern of the riding public where we've been seeing ridership losses system-wide for years now, wanting better for us riders during the unfortunate circumstances (patronage-wise) due to Covid, addressing it with a redesign? Not happening, don't believe it, can't see it.... They'll use that opportunity (dwindled usage due to Covid) to justify trimming the budget that much further instead.....

As far as if not now, then when? I read these responses that's tantamount to there being a "right" time to do a redesign (this isn't the first that sentiment's been brought up on here ).... The notion that a decrease in system-wide ridership being a (better) time to go about engaging in a redesign, conveys a lapse in logic.... There is also the train of thought that says, you don't want to risk losing the riders you have left, either..... Yes, you'll lose riders with any redesign, but coming off of basically consecutive/annual ridership losses for quite some time now, what you stand to accomplish at this point is expediting the ongoing hemorrhaging, with no where close to being a commensurate amount of growth/usage - let alone the amount of growth (to possibly occur from this redesign) trumping the number of losses system-wide.... That's how I see it.... YMMV.

5 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

With Queens, I feel like the problems overshadow the good not necessarily because there are more, but because they are worse. There is definitely a lot of good from the Queens redesign. There is also some bad. However the bad is horrible in a lot of cases.....

** (assessment of routes in your vicinity) **

Just by looking at these routes, the MTA didn’t do a bad job. It wasn’t an A+ job, but it was fine. It is routes like the Q53 and Q49 that were destroyed that really make it seem like the whole redesign is atrocious when there is more good then bad.

So just minimize the bad that was horribly bad in a lot of cases, county-wide? Better yet, do so because your assessment of the routes in your area was, fine?

The bad shouldn't be that egregious - and for damn sure there shouldn't be a "lot of cases"....

Edited February 11, 2021 by B35 via Church

[bobtehpanda]

My whole thing is that at least with the Bronx plan, the final plan is not crazy and you can see where it comes from.

I agree with the stop balancing and the general thrust of, there needs to be a redesign. However, the entire four-line dichotomy they've got going on is inherently flawed, and if you toss that out then you pretty much need to start over the plan.

6 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

Also, I take the Q46 to St. John’s.

It's funny you mention that there's nothing wrong and bring up the Q46. The Q46 plan is an absolute mess. The route is going to be split into a "local" service for west of Springfield and east of that there's going to be a "subway express" that is pretty much nonstop west of it. This pretty much screws up anyone who is coming from east of Springfield and needs something on Union west that isn't the subway, whether or not that is St. John's, a transfer to a north-south bus west of Springfield (which is pretty much all of them) or any of the other destinations on Union.

[B35 via Church]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

My whole thing is that at least with the Bronx plan, the final plan is not crazy and you can see where it comes from.

I agree with the stop balancing and the general thrust of, there needs to be a redesign. However, the entire four-line dichotomy they've got going on is inherently flawed, and if you toss that out then you pretty much need to start over the plan.

I don't see the basic need for a redesign being the problem... Their so-called stop balancing is a misnomer, as it goes too over the top.... One individual route being confined to being either a local, limited, super limited, or quote-unquote subway dash route is the issue I take with that whole bit... They're trying to be too cute with that.... The Q46 (speaking of which/for example) having a local & a LTD variant is not the problem with the network.... Not in the slightest.

All in all, if they end up amending that facet of the redesign, then that would be an admission that the very basis of the thing was an abject failure.

[Cait Sith]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't see the basic need for a redesign being the problem... Their so-called stop balancing is a misnomer, as it goes too over the top.... One individual route being confined to being either a local, limited, super limited, or quote-unquote subway dash route is the issue I take with that whole bit... They're trying to be too cute with that.... The Q46 (speaking of which/for example) having a local & a LTD variant is not the problem with the network.... Not in the slightest.

All in all, if they end up amending that facet of the redesign, then that would be an admission that the very basis of the thing was an abject failure.

Not to mention the 15-20 minute "expresses" when it's actually one big ol' service cut....everyone knows about my gripes with the 101st Avenue route(I forgot what QT thing it is). That's one gigantic service cut. But folks see that as an improvement somehow, especially from those that have never ridden both the Q8 and the Q112(which offends me the most tbh).