Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[N6 Limited]

5 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It covers that area, but I think that was more experimental (they could've just as easily extended the QT41 that way to fully replicate the present-day Q84).

Not just Jackson Heights...there were reasonable complaints from various portions of the borough regarding things like span reductions, newly indirect routes (e.g. QT84, QT88, etc). But yes I do agree a lot of people were complaining just to complain (e.g. "I take the Q88 from QCM to Utopia Parkway and now that bus is gone" despite that trip being completely covered end-to-end by the QT12, with new overnight service to boot)

Lets also be logical, how many times has the MTA threatened to get rid of the Q84 in the first place? If they have to append the eastern end to a Francis Lewis route, then so be it.

Yes, span times can be adjusted, and indirect routes were for coverage, many of those routes have low ridership, now that they're getting passenger counters they'll REALLY know where the ridership is.

And yes, some complaints were due to a certain bus being "removed" but still covered by a route with a different number.

 

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

Yes, span times can be adjusted, and indirect routes were for coverage, many of those routes have low ridership, now that they're getting passenger counters they'll REALLY know where the ridership is.

Yeah but they could've covered those lower-ridership areas with more direct routes. Even if they wanted to keep the whole color distinction, they could've combined the QT83 and QT88, or QT64 with the QT84 (referring to the Bayside-College  Point portion).

But of course, being that they're redoing it the next couple of months, hopefully suggestions like that were low-hanging fruit to incorporate.

And for what it's worth, even some of the less popular proposals still have some legitimate supporters. One of my coworkers in Middle Village thinks the QT77 is wonderful, since it would bring him directly to work with no transfer.

[IAlam]

7 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

On the contrary, most people bashing the plan don't live in Queens and don't ride the bus in Queens. The plan addressed many issues I've had trying to get around Queens via bus, such as buses ending short of convenient transfer points, buses veering away from each other and not allowing continuing trips without going to Jamaica or Flushing, etc.

Most of the "limited" routes had local routes running along the same corridors.

One thing so many people overlooked are the service hours and frequencies. Once you start to look at the map with the route frequencies and what service looks like during off peak hours you being to realize how screwed over NE Queens is getting. These purple routes also force you to go to the city center which is not helpful in areas like Flushing where may destinations are not located in the city center anymore. A lot of these purple routes are also peak only with no off peak alternative, or if the did have an alternative it was to a different town center. On top of that the walks to these stops on some of these lines are outrageous to the point I really wouldn't even bother riding these lines to get to the places I normally go. Currently my area is served every 5 min or less during midday, with the proposed map if I wanted to take the bus my nearest stop I'd have to wait nearly 30 minutes midday. This plan created so many issues for me and I have every right to bash it, I loose many one seat rides, or I'm now forced to go via Flushing for most trips, and I'm not gaining frequency increases on any of the lines/corridors I use. At best there was really only 1 improvement for me but compared to everything else I loose there's no way I could support this. 

 

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Yes, span times can be adjusted, and indirect routes were for coverage, many of those routes have low ridership, now that they're getting passenger counters they'll REALLY know where the ridership is.

Queens is like Staten island most people are riding to and from town centers, because these are typically are where your subway connections are located. You can't really say a route is doing terribly once it branches out towards the end and there's less people. The one thing the MTA isn't looking at as much as they should is the number of riders at the peak of the bus because unlike the other boros Queens doesn't have much turnover on their routes. 30 people getting on one trip of the Q46 will look completely different than 30 people getting on one trip of the B46. 

[Lawrence St]

Like there’s certain sections that ARE run properly by the MTA in the express bus network THAT HAVE NO RIDERSHIP. 

But no, let’s continue running empty buses just because you want to.

[N6 Limited]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Yeah but they could've covered those lower-ridership areas with more direct routes. Even if they wanted to keep the whole color distinction, they could've combined the QT83 and QT88, or QT64 with the QT84 (referring to the Bayside-College  Point portion).

But of course, being that they're redoing it the next couple of months, hopefully suggestions like that were low-hanging fruit to incorporate.

And for what it's worth, even some of the less popular proposals still have some legitimate supporters. One of my coworkers in Middle Village thinks the QT77 is wonderful, since it would bring him directly to work with no transfer.

The network has to be "re-imagined" if they want people to use the buses more, they also have to institute a better grid network.

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Like there’s certain sections that ARE run properly by the MTA in the express bus network THAT HAVE NO RIDERSHIP. 

But no, let’s continue running empty buses just because you want to.

Right, it's not efficient to have empty buses rolling around, then complain that the MTA needs more funding.

 

1 hour ago, IAlam said:

One thing so many people overlooked are the service hours and frequencies. Once you start to look at the map with the route frequencies and what service looks like during off peak hours you being to realize how screwed over NE Queens is getting. These purple routes also force you to go to the city center which is not helpful in areas like Flushing where may destinations are not located in the city center anymore. A lot of these purple routes are also peak only with no off peak alternative, or if the did have an alternative it was to a different town center. On top of that the walks to these stops on some of these lines are outrageous to the point I really wouldn't even bother riding these lines to get to the places I normally go. Currently my area is served every 5 min or less during midday, with the proposed map if I wanted to take the bus my nearest stop I'd have to wait nearly 30 minutes midday. This plan created so many issues for me and I have every right to bash it, I loose many one seat rides, or I'm now forced to go via Flushing for most trips, and I'm not gaining frequency increases on any of the lines/corridors I use. At best there was really only 1 improvement for me but compared to everything else I loose there's no way I could support this. 

Would you say that the ability to track buses helps make these trips with lets frequent routes?

 

1 hour ago, IAlam said:

Queens is like Staten island most people are riding to and from town centers, because these are typically are where your subway connections are located. You can't really say a route is doing terribly once it branches out towards the end and there's less people. The one thing the MTA isn't looking at as much as they should is the number of riders at the peak of the bus because unlike the other boros Queens doesn't have much turnover on their routes. 30 people getting on one trip of the Q46 will look completely different than 30 people getting on one trip of the B46. 

Some of these routes look to increase turnover as they connect to many other lines. The B46 is different because it serves a few train lines and terminates at a mall. The Q5 would be a better comparison.

[R10 2952]

7 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I'm absolutely sure most of the other Queens folks (and those who also rely on buses in Queens) here have major gripes about the proposed network too. 

Former Middle Village native here- can confirm the proposed redesign for the neighborhood sucked balls.

[B35 via Church]

9 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Most of the "limited" routes had local routes running along the same corridors

...along portions of corridors, as separate routes.

9 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

On the contrary, most people bashing the plan don't live in Queens and don't ride the bus in Queens. The plan addressed many issues I've had trying to get around Queens via bus, such as buses ending short of convenient transfer points, buses veering away from each other and not allowing continuing trips without going to Jamaica or Flushing, etc.

9 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I think everyone here is just against any type of change, this is why we have slow buses and it took an "outsider" Andy Byford to simply take a look at trains/timers to realize why they were always going BIE and getting increasingly slow.

So in order to have an opinion on the plan, you have to be a Queens resident? When did the MTA make the prerequisite that this plan was solely for Queens residents..... As if patrons from other boroughs or elsewhere don't use buses in Queens...

Great... the plan addressed many issues for you... Ever stopped to think this plan would loom detrimental for other riders.... Or is that not a possibility....

You can easily expose the people that are bashing the plan, because those are the people that simply can not go in depth as to what specific issues (plural) with the plan they have problems with; they merely spew out vague/general answers.... But, I suppose it's easier for you & people like you to throw most people that are against the plan under the umbrella of simply being against any type of change.....

7 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

I do like some aspect of the plan. Super Expresses to the subway are pretty beneficial for those living east of Jamaica and Flushing. As long as there is proper frequent local service there as well.

I am also all right with them cutting stops.

But the way they went about rearranging the Jackson Heights routes makes no sense to me. For example Q49, they are proposing to run QT74 directly down 90th Street and ending it at Broadway. On paper it makes sense, but the bus runs every 15 minutes. You can be at Northern Blvd by the time the bus arrives at 90th Street - Elmhurst Ave station.

The thing with the routes in JH is that most of these routes are feeder routes to the expresses at 74th Street. If you are going to force passenger to transfer to the  anyways, most passengers will walk from the and just forgo taking the bus at all. In theory it makes sense, but will not work in practice

Yeah, anyone that literally dislikes everything that a plan this extensive has to offer, I wouldn't take seriously no way.... I think everyone on this forum (at least) that's opined on the damn thing likes some facet{s} of it..... But this blanket shaming of people that isn't waxing poetic about it, is for the birds... What's not about to happen is any praise emanating from me regarding this plan, simply because it's different than the current network.... AFAIC, substance, nuance, and details matter.....

Right, the basic concept of those purple-colored routes I don't have a problem with..... However, I do take issue with a route only being that one service type, operating singularly along a given corridor..... This flat out ignoring of (or otherwise doing away with) any iota of complementary service, network-wide, IMO is unwise... All these service types they present (the red, blue, green, and purple colored routes) operate separately; no cohesion within them whatsoever... When I first checked out the PDF detailing this plan, that's one of the first things that stuck out to me...

[B35 via Church]

39 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Would you say that the ability to track buses helps make these trips with lets frequent routes?

The ability to track buses is not a justification for less service.

You talk about people being against any type of change, but here you are being rather flippant to a dude that raises legitimate concerns....

[N6 Limited]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

The ability to track buses is not a justification for less service.

You talk about people being against any type of change, but here you are being rather flippant to a dude that raises legitimate concerns....

I was just asking a question.

20 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

...along portions of corridors, as separate routes.

10 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Yes, not necessarily a bad thing.

 

21 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

So in order to have an opinion on the plan, you have to be a Queens resident?

I was simply replying to the comment, which made that a point.

 

23 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Great... the plan addressed many issues for you... Ever stopped to think this plan would loom detrimental for other riders.... Or is that not a possibility....

 

Yes, can't please everyone when serving a city of 8 million people...

25 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

You can easily expose the people that are bashing the plan, because those are the people that simply can not go in depth as to what specific issues (plural) with the plan they have problems with; they merely spew out vague/general answers.... But, I suppose it's easier for you & people like you to throw most people that are against the plan under the umbrella of simply being against any type of change.....

No, but there are people that bash anything the MTA does. 

I remember years ago, there was a news story that bus ridership was increasing but the MTA wasn't increasing service at the same rate. If there are 10 people per trip and bus ridership increases by 100% then the mta does not have to increase service at all. 

[JAzumah]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Since we calling people out, Didn’t you say you were done speaking about the subject after five people proved you wrong? 

I don't want VG8 to go hide and not express himself. This is the internet and everybody has a right to express themselves as long as they do it with respect.

I just want him to understand that you cannot ask the MTA to do something they cannot do.
How is the MTA supposed to run a schedule they do not have the manpower for?
Why is it not clear that you cannot run a reliable schedule if you don't have enough drivers?

There is no question that consistently reducing schedules can chase away passengers. However, consistently not making your schedules will also chase away passengers. When the MTA is placed in a no-win situation, they will do nothing.

Too much change at once can upset people. I learned that running the 144. Sometimes, you have to change the most important things and then stop touching anything for a while. Even when you are improving things, the constant change can be a pain in the butt to keep up with. I appreciate the MTA's thought exercise with regards to the Queens bus network, but they are going to have to be less ambitious. I also think they may have to cut Queens up into six sections and phase in the changes section by section. The route nomenclature should be reworked to be as close to today's designations as possible and the shift in commuting patterns will probably need an almost complete reworking of the express bus changes. Frankly, I don't think any express bus service should go to Hudson Yards until most people are back in the office at least 3x weekly.

Personally, I would love to operate the QM3. I think it has the potential to perform much better than it does, especially with an upgraded hard product that includes wi-fi and outlets.

In addition to the MTA's general marketing budget, I would like to see the MTA spend some more money on area specific advertising that gets bus maps and route specific advertising into the hands of customers. A few years ago, NJT advertised its Jersey Shore services by hooking up with pizzerias to put NJT ads on the pizza boxes themselves. It might be useful to advertise changes in bus routes in a similar fashion.

Finally, fare policy has to become a part of this network discussion because it matters. If the railroad runs $5 off-peak fares, the express buses should match them as well. Otherwise, the off-peak express bus system is going to bleed a lot of discretionary traffic to the railroad in Queens as well as the Bronx.

[checkmatechamp13]

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

The network has to be "re-imagined" if they want people to use the buses more, they also have to institute a better grid network.

New doesn't necessarily mean better. It might or it might not. We could drop all the green routes from this plan (as in, drop them with no replacement) and it would still be a "re-imagined" bus system...compared to what exists now. 

As for the grid network, turning the Woodhaven local branches into a U-shaped route does nothing to facilitate a grid network. Neither does creating a roundabout route from Flushing to Bayside via College Point. Yes, those corridors need to be covered, but not in the manner that is proposed. 

There is plenty of good in the new network. The question is, how to get it to an optimized point where the good is maximized and the bad is minimized.

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Some of these routes look to increase turnover as they connect to many other lines. The B46 is different because it serves a few train lines and terminates at a mall. The Q5 would be a better comparison.

Right, but his general point is the same. Even if there is a semi-solid anchor on one end, ridership is still going to be skewed towards the end with the subway connection.

[B35 via Church]

7 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

I was just asking a question.

You were trying to dismiss his claims by suggesting that he (can) track buses.

9 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Yes, not necessarily a bad thing.

[Having routes that operate solely as LTD routes] run along portions of other routes that solely operates as locals, network-wide, facilitates disjointedness... That is very much a bad thing, when we're talking about a network of most LTD routes doing that.... You may believe it's not necessarily a bad thing, but there is a need for a local counterpart for some of those LTD routes... I say some, because some of those LTD routes I do not believe should exist as proposed...

48 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

I was simply replying to the comment, which made that a point.

@R32 3838 referenced foamers praising the plan not living in Queens, and you countered by saying most people quote-unquote bashing the plan not living in Queens & don't ride the bus in Queens.... Aside from the fact that you're speaking to a much wider array of people than he was, aside from the fact that I'd (also, like others here) say that most people quote-unquote bashing the plan being Queens patrons, how do you make the leap from [foamers] to [non-Queens residents] ?

It appears that you took offense to the foamer comment; especially when you started off by saying "on the contrary"... I don't get the sense he was conveying that anyone that sides with the plan are foamers... I got the sense he was speaking to the Frederick Wells types.... IDK about R32, but I have no reason to put you in the foamer category....

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

Yes, can't please everyone when serving a city of 8 million people...

As long as you're being pleased huh... Damn anyone else.

I mean, we shouldn't be up here making comments suggesting that somebody track buses, when they're expressing how this plan would f*** them over... By doing that, it's absolving the MTA's blatant ploy to cut service (which most certainly shouldn't be a part of trying to serve a city of 8 million people)....

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

No, but there are people that bash anything the MTA does.

I remember years ago, there was a news story that bus ridership was increasing but the MTA wasn't increasing service at the same rate. If there are 10 people per trip and bus ridership increases by 100% then the mta does not have to increase service at all. 

Well the MTA makes it easy for people to bash anything they do, so yeah, those folks you're referencing definitely exist... At the same time, that doesn't necessarily mean that they came out in full, or a significant enough of an amount of force to bash this particular project (the redesign), solely on the basis of f*** the MTA, because......... f*** the MTA.... The people (at least) I've heard and read about that negatively critiqued this plan, made the arguments that they did, coherently.... Again, you can tell & easily expose those that are hating for the simple sake of it (including band-wagoners)...

[B35 via Church]

10 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

New doesn't necessarily mean better. It might or it might not. We could drop all the green routes from this plan (as in, drop them with no replacement) and it would still be a "re-imagined" bus system...compared to what exists now.

That's a common fallacy that some people fall victim to.... I don't do the whole blind optimism bit & I don't operate from a scarcity mindset... In this case, as if to say, since the current network has its faults, I'll just side with the new network because it's anything BUT the current network.... I'll believe it when I see it (work out for the better).... The MTA is no where near in a position with me to where they get the benefit of the doubt....

 

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

The network has to be "re-imagined" if they want people to use the buses more, they also have to institute a better grid network.

Right, it's not efficient to have empty buses rolling around, then complain that the MTA needs more funding.

 

Would you say that the ability to track buses helps make these trips with lets frequent routes?

 

Some of these routes look to increase turnover as they connect to many other lines. The B46 is different because it serves a few train lines and terminates at a mall. The Q5 would be a better comparison.

That’s exactly the point. Outside of Staten Island, 75% of these express routes shouldn’t be running outside of rush hours, the ridership proves that.

What  does that I agree with VG8 on is they tend to cut a route in its entirety instead of just reducing the service levels, for example the BM29. But fighting for service levels to remain at 100% for a route that sees 25% of ridership is a problem.

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, JAzumah said:

I don't want VG8 to go hide and not express himself. This is the internet and everybody has a right to express themselves as long as they do it with respect.

I just want him to understand that you cannot ask the MTA to do something they cannot do.
How is the MTA supposed to run a schedule they do not have the manpower for?
Why is it not clear that you cannot run a reliable schedule if you don't have enough drivers?

There is no question that consistently reducing schedules can chase away passengers. However, consistently not making your schedules will also chase away passengers. When the MTA is placed in a no-win situation, they will do nothing.

Too much change at once can upset people. I learned that running the 144. Sometimes, you have to change the most important things and then stop touching anything for a while. Even when you are improving things, the constant change can be a pain in the butt to keep up with. I appreciate the MTA's thought exercise with regards to the Queens bus network, but they are going to have to be less ambitious. I also think they may have to cut Queens up into six sections and phase in the changes section by section. The route nomenclature should be reworked to be as close to today's designations as possible and the shift in commuting patterns will probably need an almost complete reworking of the express bus changes. Frankly, I don't think any express bus service should go to Hudson Yards until most people are back in the office at least 3x weekly.

Personally, I would love to operate the QM3. I think it has the potential to perform much better than it does, especially with an upgraded hard product that includes wi-fi and outlets.

In addition to the MTA's general marketing budget, I would like to see the MTA spend some more money on area specific advertising that gets bus maps and route specific advertising into the hands of customers. A few years ago, NJT advertised its Jersey Shore services by hooking up with pizzerias to put NJT ads on the pizza boxes themselves. It might be useful to advertise changes in bus routes in a similar fashion.

Finally, fare policy has to become a part of this network discussion because it matters. If the railroad runs $5 off-peak fares, the express buses should match them as well. Otherwise, the off-peak express bus system is going to bleed a lot of discretionary traffic to the railroad in Queens as well as the Bronx.

When did you run the 144 and what happened to it?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Since we calling people out, Didn’t you say you were done speaking about the subject after five people proved you wrong? 

The subject being discussed was specifically about cutting service elsewhere to run more SIM23/SIM24 service. I'm talking about the general idea of cutting bus service. Not the same thing. Furthermore, your rationale of cutting service and to hell with what the commuters say is insane to say the least, and I mean that in general. You have said in a number of posts that essentially what riders think doesn't matter. To hell with them and just make the changes. That's not the way to run a successful transit system.

 

10 hours ago, JAzumah said:

1. Please share with us your experience of trying to hire bus operators in the last 12 months. I have never seen New Jersey Transit put a signing bonus on the table to hire people BEFORE. They put a $6,000 signing bonus for bus drivers and mechanics. About three weeks ago, Peter Pan Bus Lines offered a $10,000 incentive for new drivers. $10,000! I can't say if the MTA is REALLY trying their hardest to hire bus operators. I know everyone else is, but a lot of those drivers moved to trucks and they will be damned if they ever get put in a position to starve again under another lockdown. What are we supposed to tell them?
 

2. As @XcelsiorBoii4888 has told you, he actually likes to know when his bus is coming. This is a fairly common passenger request. They want to know when the bus is coming. People leave transit when transit cannot meet their posted schedules. When you publish a frequency of every 10 minutes and you start the rush hour period with one missing bus, you've just created a 20 minute gap. Now, the bus after the missing bus is carrying 1.5 to 2 times their normal loads. Most drivers cannot carry 1.5 times their normal loads and keep the posted schedule, so the 20 minute hole morphs into a 30 minute hole in 2-3 hours with two buses running back to back.

THAT is why you change the schedule when you have a structural driver shortage until you fix it.

To ignore your structural shortage and to run a schedule that you never have enough drivers for is asking for trouble.

 

3. Note that you are criticizing me for saying to reduce service to what you can run, but you are complaining about what happens when you DON'T cut service to what you can run. This is why people in our industry burn out and go do something else. Being put in a position to fail almost every day is not a receipt for longevity. It is the equivalent of a rolling blackout.
 

4. The economy is STRUCTURALLY broken. Lots of people are not working and they are not coming back to work until certain moratoriums go away (such as for eviction). You can't buy more from the market than what is being sold. 

 

5. Voluntarily or involuntary? A lot of municipal employees don't want to work anywhere near other people until the pandemic is over. This is not an easy problem to solve either.

In a previous time, the MTA could hire as fast as they could run classes and do training.  We are not there right now and won't be before mid-2022. 

1. You should ask the  that. It's a well known fact that they decided to take on a hiring freeze pre-pandemic when the economy was booming, so the idea that they are being hit industry wide now (while partially true) would not be as exacerbated had they planned better.

2. They haven't been able to meet their schedules since wayyyy before this pandemic began and they have curtailed service on some lines during this pandemic and still couldn't run all of the service they committed to with scaled back service, so while that sounds good, it does not mean people won't be still waiting with uncertain service if such changes were made. You speak with such certainty on these things without taking about execution on the  side, which has always been the problem.

3. Because you are under the assumption that the  will execute on modified schedules and from experience, they have not. You can modify the schedules all you want to the barebones. If they can't make service on hourly headways some days, I'm not sure cutting service down is going to make a difference. What they are doing now is trying to shuffle around service to cover what they can based on ridership data and trying to get pieces covered as they can. It's not ideal, but at the same time if you cut schedules and then can't meet those then what? Not only that, but ridership fluctuates a lot right now. 

4 & 5. I don't agree with that. There are certain parts of the economy that are broken, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement like you are. The  had a hiring freeze in place that made the situation much worse than what it was and they are combing over lists from years ago. Those people are still willing to take on the job, but you cannot leave people waiting for a job for an eternity. I see the training buses out there regularly, so there are people interested and very much excited for the opportunity for such a job. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Like there’s certain sections that ARE run properly by the MTA in the express bus network THAT HAVE NO RIDERSHIP. 

But no, let’s continue running empty buses just because you want to.

Let me fix that... Let's cut them because you see an empty bus that you don't use while not looking at actual ridership data. Hell I could stand at 57th and 3rd and see lightly used QM express buses doing their drop-off and assume that ridership is low, but meanwhile, many people get off at 6th and 36th and elsewhere before 57th and 3rd. That's essentially what you do without having a clue about ridership data or ridership patterns.

Or maybe you have ulterior motive. Call for the  to cut service so you can try to run some sort of private service... 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[JAzumah]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

When did you run the 144 and what happened to it?

The MTA created the S89 to divert traffic off of the 144.

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, JAzumah said:

The MTA created the S89 to divert traffic off of the 144.

So MTA fought with you over the QM22...and then created a route just to put you out of buisness?

Sounds fishy. 

[N6 Limited]

14 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You were trying to dismiss his claims by suggesting that he (can) track buses.

16 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I was asking in general if bus tracking helps with lower frequency routes, not particularly his situation.

 

14 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

[Having routes that operate solely as LTD routes] run along portions of other routes that solely operates as locals, network-wide, facilitates disjointedness... That is very much a bad thing, when we're talking about a network of most LTD routes doing that.... You may believe it's not necessarily a bad thing, but there is a need for a local counterpart for some of those LTD routes... I say some, because some of those LTD routes I do not believe should exist as proposed.

Don't forget, one of the goals is to speed up travel.

 

14 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

@R32 3838 referenced foamers praising the plan not living in Queens, and you countered by saying most people quote-unquote bashing the plan not living in Queens & don't ride the bus in Queens.... Aside from the fact that you're speaking to a much wider array of people than he was, aside from the fact that I'd (also, like others here) say that most people quote-unquote bashing the plan being Queens patrons, how do you make the leap from [foamers] to [non-Queens residents] ?

It appears that you took offense to the foamer comment; especially when you started off by saying "on the contrary"... I don't get the sense he was conveying that anyone that sides with the plan are foamers... I got the sense he was speaking to the Frederick Wells types.... IDK about R32, but I have no reason to put you in the foamer category....

I was thinking of the foamers on the board as well as some that go to every MTA meeting and voice their concerns.

 

14 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

As long as you're being pleased huh... Damn anyone else.

I mean, we shouldn't be up here making comments suggesting that somebody track buses, when they're expressing how this plan would f*** them over... By doing that, it's absolving the MTA's blatant ploy to cut service (which most certainly shouldn't be a part of trying to serve a city of 8 million people)....

Not exactly, I don't use the buses like I used to, but the plan looks appealing due to the connectivity and faster (projected) services.

14 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Well the MTA makes it easy for people to bash anything they do, so yeah, those folks you're referencing definitely exist... At the same time, that doesn't necessarily mean that they came out in full, or a significant enough of an amount of force to bash this particular project (the redesign), solely on the basis of f*** the MTA, because......... f*** the MTA.... The people (at least) I've heard and read about that negatively critiqued this plan, made the arguments that they did, coherently.... Again, you can tell & easily expose those that are hating for the simple sake of it (including band-wagoners)...

Yes the MTA certainly does make it easier to bash anything they do. 

Yes I did see some coherent reasons for not liking the plan, the MTA did take into account congested corridors, etc. Although a route may be a block or two away there should be less delays, busses stuck in traffic , etc.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

17 hours ago, JAzumah said:

I don't want VG8 to go hide and not express himself. This is the internet and everybody has a right to express themselves as long as they do it with respect.

I just want him to understand that you cannot ask the MTA to do something they cannot do.
How is the MTA supposed to run a schedule they do not have the manpower for?
Why is it not clear that you cannot run a reliable schedule if you don't have enough drivers?

There is no question that consistently reducing schedules can chase away passengers. However, consistently not making your schedules will also chase away passengers. When the MTA is placed in a no-win situation, they will do nothing.

Too much change at once can upset people. I learned that running the 144. Sometimes, you have to change the most important things and then stop touching anything for a while. Even when you are improving things, the constant change can be a pain in the butt to keep up with. I appreciate the MTA's thought exercise with regards to the Queens bus network, but they are going to have to be less ambitious. I also think they may have to cut Queens up into six sections and phase in the changes section by section. The route nomenclature should be reworked to be as close to today's designations as possible and the shift in commuting patterns will probably need an almost complete reworking of the express bus changes. Frankly, I don't think any express bus service should go to Hudson Yards until most people are back in the office at least 3x weekly.

Personally, I would love to operate the QM3. I think it has the potential to perform much better than it does, especially with an upgraded hard product that includes wi-fi and outlets.

In addition to the MTA's general marketing budget, I would like to see the MTA spend some more money on area specific advertising that gets bus maps and route specific advertising into the hands of customers. A few years ago, NJT advertised its Jersey Shore services by hooking up with pizzerias to put NJT ads on the pizza boxes themselves. It might be useful to advertise changes in bus routes in a similar fashion.

Finally, fare policy has to become a part of this network discussion because it matters. If the railroad runs $5 off-peak fares, the express buses should match them as well. Otherwise, the off-peak express bus system is going to bleed a lot of discretionary traffic to the railroad in Queens as well as the Bronx.

It's not about what I don't understand. I have a pretty good understanding of how things work. My issue with you is you keep saying the same thing over and over. I am looking at this from the human aspect. I have a lot of people in my group that don't work 9-5 that are essential workers. One of the first things the  asked me was do I look at express bus service at ALL hours? My answer was of course I do because we all travel at different times and have different needs, and so no, I am not going to call for any cuts knowing that some people would definitely be negatively impacted by those cuts. Now if they have to cut that's a different story, but I am focused on them getting more bus operators in 2022 and doing the best that they can to announce the cancelled trips. The reality is I do talk with them about it and some lines have seen fewer cancellations, but with this pandemic there will be ups and downs.

I have a large segment of QM3 riders as well in my group who are well aware of the  wanting to cut that line and I will definitely fight tooth and nail with them to keep it. My stance is that we need transportation in our neighborhoods and I'm not accepting anything half-assed. I don't care about them being short on manpower. They have a responsibility to do everything possible to run the service they can and that is a very reasonable request. 

While you're fixated on express, I have been using some local buses in Manhattan that are empty, so I don't know what your fixation is with the express buses. Took an M101 earlier that had three people on it besides myself.

[NBTA]

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I was asking in general if bus tracking helps with lower frequency routes, not particularly his situation.

 

Don't forget, one of the goals is to speed up travel.

 

I was thinking of the foamers on the board as well as some that go to every MTA meeting and voice their concerns.

 

Not exactly, I don't use the buses like I used to, but the plan looks appealing due to the connectivity and faster (projected) services.

Yes the MTA certainly does make it easier to bash anything they do. 

Yes I did see some coherent reasons for not liking the plan, the MTA did take into account congested corridors, etc. Although a route may be a block or two away there should be less delays, busses stuck in traffic , etc.

That point, makes your points about the redesign look less appealing and convincing. Me personally, traveling in Queens has became a daily thing, and while some routes do need fixing (I.E the Q88), some do not, and serve major corridors well (I.E the Q60).

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I was asking in general if bus tracking helps with lower frequency routes, not particularly his situation.

You asked someone that flat out told you that he would gain no frequency increases in his service area with this plan... Given someone with the mindset that conveyed all that he did in that post of his, it's a slap in the face to then ask if bus tracking helps with lower frequency routes....

Regardless if you claim you weren't particularly talking about his situation (if this redesign were to come to fruition without any further amending to it), the focus shouldn't be on inquiring about coping mechanisms anyway... It comes across as being an MTA apologist..

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Don't forget, one of the goals is to speed up travel.

Well aware of it.... Something else I'm well aware of is how they're going about attaining that goal (considering the totality of the network redesign) - being frugal as shit in the process.

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I was thinking of the foamers on the board as well as some that go to every MTA meeting and voice their concerns.

Then why not say most foamers bashing the plan don't live in Queens and don't ride the bus in Queens, instead of most people bashing the plan don't live in Queens and don't ride the bus in Queens? That lack of specificity is part of the reason that part of your sentiment got heavily criticized on here... Furthermore, what you now profess to what you were thinking would not have been a contrarian point, that would have been a supporting point of his (@R32 3838).....

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Not exactly, I don't use the buses like I used to, but the plan looks appealing due to the connectivity and faster (projected) services.

(All of) The quote-unquote subway dash routes initially looked appealing to me... Then dug deeper/mused & found aspects to some, if not most of them, that are very troubling.... Basically what @IAlam brought up in the first part of this post to you....

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Yes the MTA certainly does make it easier to bash anything they do. 

Yes I did see some coherent reasons for not liking the plan, the MTA did take into account congested corridors, etc. Although a route may be a block or two away there should be less delays, buses stuck in traffic , etc.

There would also be less buses on the roads... Not saying that you are, but that cannot go ignored & has to be emphasized - at minimum....

[JAzumah]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So MTA fought with you over the QM22...and then created a route just to put you out of buisness?

Sounds fishy. 

The MTA and I only fought on the 144. They didn't care on the QM22 and they were helpful on the X90. NYC was the problem there because I stepped on the toes of a politically connected company which will remain nameless.

I am not particularly worried about it any more. The MTA will not bother me as long as I am not duplicating any of their routes directly. The folks that said that are still at the agency. They are aware that they cannot do everything.

 

[JAzumah]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My issue with you is you keep saying the same thing over and over.

And if it is still true, then... 
 

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Now if they have to cut that's a different story, but I am focused on them getting more bus operators in 2022 and doing the best that they can to announce the cancelled trips. The reality is I do talk with them about it and some lines have seen fewer cancellations, but with this pandemic there will be ups and downs.

The point of contention is that they HAVE TO CUT when they don't have enough drivers until they do. There is a time lag between when they announce cancelled trips and when the customers receive them. It makes for grumpy customers.

This year was the first year that I've ridden an automatic bus that could actually do the local speed limit without a problem in automatic mode. It will be several more years before that tech makes it onto larger buses. In the interim, your schedule needs to reflect the amount of drivers you have 95% of the time. I suspect Omicron is going to make things chaotic through February, so they will be short 1.5 times the drivers they are now. When should they tap out and reduce the schedule a bit?

 

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

While you're fixated on express, I have been using some local buses in Manhattan that are empty, so I don't know what your fixation is with the express buses. Took an M101 earlier that had three people on it besides myself.

Are you serious? The M101 carries as many people as the ENTIRE Staten Island express bus system! 
 

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I have a large segment of QM3 riders as well in my group who are well aware of the  wanting to cut that line and I will definitely fight tooth and nail with them to keep it. My stance is that we need transportation in our neighborhoods and I'm not accepting anything half-assed. I don't care about them being short on manpower. They have a responsibility to do everything possible to run the service they can and that is a very reasonable request. 

They can start by advertising it. The Queens neighborhoods are changing over and a lot of the new folks may not know what the Douglaston-Deepdale Express does. I suspect that is why the BM ridership is also plunging (on top of the fare being too high).