Governor Hochul seeks ‘alternatives’ to LaGuardia AirTrain

[Lex]

38 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Hey, look what we’ve got here. It’s the PA’s newest alternatives study for transit links to LaGuardia…

https://www.anewlga.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/LGA-Mass-Transit-Access-Evaluation-March-2022.pdf
 

And here’s your chance to comment on them…

https://mobile.twitter.com/ByERussell/status/1499136750953893889/photo/1

And, please, nobody speak in favor of the “emerging technologies” alternative. That’s probably fancy-speak for “Tesla Tunnel.” NYC needs one of those about as much as an apple needs a worm.

 

The Astoria Line extension proposal via 19th Avenue is actually fairly similar to one of my old ideas. (Of course, I'd have more stops than shown on the slide, along with room to continue further east in Queens if funding is found.)

The Jackson Heights light rail concept has some merit, but not as proposed. It would be better suited as part of the Interborough Express. In addition, I'd really like to see room for an extension to the Bronx (via College Point), but I don't think the elevated proposal leaves the necessary room for such.

I'm not particularly keen on that Jamaica proposal, least of all if the plan is to have trains run between both airports. They'd be better off with a Parsons/Kissena approach with that. Adding a bunch of intermediate stations that would open up options for airport workers and people heading to/from flights would also help (anyone using the line strictly for travel between intermediate stations would merely be incidental ).

NYC is already full of worms. The last thing we'd need is another.

[Eric B]

I was hoping the original Willets Point option would be the springboard for connection to the JFK system (i.e. both options!)

[7-express]

17 hours ago, Eric B said:

I was hoping the original Willets Point option would be the springboard for connection to the JFK system (i.e. both options!)

One of the 14 proposals is actually this.  An AirTrain running along the Van Wyck to Jamaica.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

22 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Hey, look what we’ve got here. It’s the PA’s newest alternatives study for transit links to LaGuardia…

https://www.anewlga.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/LGA-Mass-Transit-Access-Evaluation-March-2022.pdf 

Since they're presenting the "long list" of alternatives, we know that they have already decided on the "short list" — and possibly the final concept

 

[paulrivera]

Improved Q70 and/or M60: Cheapest option. There's not much to improve with the M60 short of making it terminate at 125/3rd or Lex, which is a non-starter.

Astoria shuttle bus: The  can do that within 6 months with an M60/Q19 hybrid variant. Cheaper and quicker to implement.

Ditmars shuttle bus: I don't see anyone riding it from Manhattan with the M60 one stop south. Probably a non-starter.

Northern Blvd BRT: Q33 revamp, I guess? But it's going to a local QBL stop, so I don't see it happening either.

Willets Point Cuomotrain: Why is this still on the table? Hard pass.

Woodside Airtrain: Just as expensive as the Willets Point Airtrain, but there's better LIRR connections here. No QBL connection here, but it's the most Midtown-friendly proposal I've seen.

Airtrain JFK extension: ehh... pass.

Astoria Blvd Airtrain: I like it, it's a straight shot routing and doesn't really disrupt any residential communities. We gotta get the Astoria Express  or  back to make it more enticing, but idk if anyone in Astoria is going to pay $8 to use it...

Jackson Heights Airtrain: I like this too, but there's no LIRR and the Q70 does a decent enough job along the same corridor. Why not have the Interboro express go there tho?

via GCP: branching off the Astoria line wouldn't be good for today's  operations. I think you'd have to swap the  and  in Queens, and run the on QBL 7 days a week to have it make sense for RTO, but that's a whole other study that would need to be done. Otherwise I think this route is fairly feasible.

and  extension: High risk of NIMBY. But they've been starting to warm up to an Astoria line extension to LGA, so we'll see...

Ferry service: You can start this within a year if NYC Ferry chooses to run it, and Marine Air Terminal is a great docking location. The existing PA shuttle buses can get people to the central terminal in short order.

[Eric B]

5 hours ago, 7-express said:

One of the 14 proposals is actually this.  An AirTrain running along the Van Wyck to Jamaica.

That's what I was referring to. I didn't know that would even be on the table, and I'm glad it is (though I'm sure that's not what they're going to choose.
But if they go with Willets Point, then JFK and Jamaica should be left in as provisions for the future. Another benefit of tying the two systems together is using the existing yard and shop at JFK; perhaps expanding it if they need. They wouldn't have to build that at LGA.
BTW, if they don't go with the eastbound alternatives, then I would favor BQE to Jackson Heights. I see there's also a version of that that cuts across 31st Av. and goes down 55th St. to Woodside. Even though 55th is totally industrial, I don't picture them building a guideway over a street, and 31s is largely residential!)

[T to Dyre Avenue]

19 hours ago, paulrivera said:

Improved Q70 and/or M60: Cheapest option. There's not much to improve with the M60 short of making it terminate at 125/3rd or Lex, which is a non-starter.

Astoria shuttle bus: The  can do that within 6 months with an M60/Q19 hybrid variant. Cheaper and quicker to implement.

Ditmars shuttle bus: I don't see anyone riding it from Manhattan with the M60 one stop south. Probably a non-starter.

Northern Blvd BRT: Q33 revamp, I guess? But it's going to a local QBL stop, so I don't see it happening either.

Willets Point Cuomotrain: Why is this still on the table? Hard pass.

Woodside Airtrain: Just as expensive as the Willets Point Airtrain, but there's better LIRR connections here. No QBL connection here, but it's the most Midtown-friendly proposal I've seen.

Airtrain JFK extension: ehh... pass.

Astoria Blvd Airtrain: I like it, it's a straight shot routing and doesn't really disrupt any residential communities. We gotta get the Astoria Express  or  back to make it more enticing, but idk if anyone in Astoria is going to pay $8 to use it...

Jackson Heights Airtrain: I like this too, but there's no LIRR and the Q70 does a decent enough job along the same corridor. Why not have the Interboro express go there tho?

via GCP: branching off the Astoria line wouldn't be good for today's  operations. I think you'd have to swap the  and  in Queens, and run the on QBL 7 days a week to have it make sense for RTO, but that's a whole other study that would need to be done. Otherwise I think this route is fairly feasible.

and  extension: High risk of NIMBY. But they've been starting to warm up to an Astoria line extension to LGA, so we'll see...

Ferry service: You can start this within a year if NYC Ferry chooses to run it, and Marine Air Terminal is a great docking location. The existing PA shuttle buses can get people to the central terminal in short order.

The branching proposal will limit the number of trains that can serve LGA and would potentially require the taking of property near Astoria Blvd and 31st Street in order to create an easement for the flyover junction to allow LGA trains to go via the GCP. That, too, could trigger NIMBYs, maybe even more so than going further north and then east onto 19th Avenue. And swapping the  and  won't solve the limit on the number of trains that can serve LGA because you'd still have the current  setup between LIC and 34th Street, which already limits the number of Broadway Line trains that can serve Astoria and QBL.

[CenSin]

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The branching proposal will limit the number of trains that can serve LGA and would potentially require the taking of property near Astoria Blvd and 31st Street in order to create an easement for the flyover junction to allow LGA trains to go via the GCP. That, too, could trigger NIMBYs, maybe even more so than going further north and then east onto 19th Avenue. And swapping the  and  won't solve the limit on the number of trains that can serve LGA because you'd still have the current  setup between LIC and 34th Street, which already limits the number of Broadway Line trains that can serve Astoria and QBL.

The branching proposal is like taking the worst of each option. Less throughput to/from the airport, less throughput to/from Ditmars Boulevard and Astoria Boulevard, an extra fork/merge for 2 Broadway routes… the only happy campers are those between Queensboro Plaza and 30 Avenue. They would be guaranteed 2 services unless the MTA figures out a way to make an for Astoria.

[GojiMet86]

38 minutes ago, CenSin said:

The branching proposal is like taking the worst of each option. Less throughput to/from the airport, less throughput to/from Ditmars Boulevard and Astoria Boulevard, an extra fork/merge for 2 Broadway routes… the only happy campers are those between Queensboro Plaza and 30 Avenue. They would be guaranteed 2 services unless the MTA figures out a way to make an for Astoria.

There's also the issue of how the train is going to run under the Hell Gate approach around 42nd Street. Amtrak gets lower the further away it gets from the river, so by the time it runs over the GCP, it's only some 20 feet above Astoria Boulevard proper, and barely some 40 feet above the GCP. The Steinway Street overpass is 2 blocks west and the 43rd Street one is the next block.

The line is going to have to rollercoaster its way through. Either that, or it will have to climb up and over Amtrak (nope).

It's why extending the line north of Ditmars is the better rail option.

[BreeddekalbL]

I'd sign off on the N or W extension north of ditmars 

[Wallyhorse]

16 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

There's also the issue of how the train is going to run under the Hell Gate approach around 42nd Street. Amtrak gets lower the further away it gets from the river, so by the time it runs over the GCP, it's only some 20 feet above Astoria Boulevard proper, and barely some 40 feet above the GCP. The Steinway Street overpass is 2 blocks west and the 43rd Street one is the next block.

The line is going to have to rollercoaster its way through. Either that, or it will have to climb up and over Amtrak (nope).

It's why extending the line north of Ditmars is the better rail option.

Exactly, and I would do that anyway as part of a plan that would in addition to a new line to LGA also have an extension into The Bronx that go over a new bridge following a new stop at 20th or 21st Avenue and once in The Bronx stopping at Food Service Drive before going back underground for a route that would continue to Jacobi Medical Center that would include stops at East 180 (transfer to and ) and Westchester-Elder Avenue (transfer to ).  

[mrsman]

On 3/3/2022 at 7:53 PM, paulrivera said:

Improved Q70 and/or M60: Cheapest option. There's not much to improve with the M60 short of making it terminate at 125/3rd or Lex, which is a non-starter.

Astoria shuttle bus: The  can do that within 6 months with an M60/Q19 hybrid variant. Cheaper and quicker to implement.

Ditmars shuttle bus: I don't see anyone riding it from Manhattan with the M60 one stop south. Probably a non-starter.

Northern Blvd BRT: Q33 revamp, I guess? But it's going to a local QBL stop, so I don't see it happening either.

Willets Point Cuomotrain: Why is this still on the table? Hard pass.

Woodside Airtrain: Just as expensive as the Willets Point Airtrain, but there's better LIRR connections here. No QBL connection here, but it's the most Midtown-friendly proposal I've seen.

Airtrain JFK extension: ehh... pass.

Astoria Blvd Airtrain: I like it, it's a straight shot routing and doesn't really disrupt any residential communities. We gotta get the Astoria Express  or  back to make it more enticing, but idk if anyone in Astoria is going to pay $8 to use it...

Jackson Heights Airtrain: I like this too, but there's no LIRR and the Q70 does a decent enough job along the same corridor. Why not have the Interboro express go there tho?

via GCP: branching off the Astoria line wouldn't be good for today's  operations. I think you'd have to swap the  and  in Queens, and run the on QBL 7 days a week to have it make sense for RTO, but that's a whole other study that would need to be done. Otherwise I think this route is fairly feasible.

and  extension: High risk of NIMBY. But they've been starting to warm up to an Astoria line extension to LGA, so we'll see...

Ferry service: You can start this within a year if NYC Ferry chooses to run it, and Marine Air Terminal is a great docking location. The existing PA shuttle buses can get people to the central terminal in short order.

My preference is the subway extention from Ditmars.  It avoids the issues with branching and would ensure a direct connection to the subway system.  Make it part of the subway (ideally without an extra fare for airports) and avoid the costly AirTrain.  Connecting  service does a good job of reaching key locations in Manhattan with transfers to most other Manhattan subways.

But not every airport trip starts in Manhattan.  Certianly travelers for LGA may also be coming from eastern Queens and LI.  The Astoria line is hard to reach from LIRR and the QBL.  Therefore, improvements to the Q70 route (like dedicated lanes) would also be needed to help travelers coming from the east.  Q70 connects to the Woodside LIRR and all the subways (and future IBX) in Jackson Heights.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 3/4/2022 at 8:24 PM, GojiMet86 said:

There's also the issue of how the train is going to run under the Hell Gate approach around 42nd Street. Amtrak gets lower the further away it gets from the river, so by the time it runs over the GCP, it's only some 20 feet above Astoria Boulevard proper, and barely some 40 feet above the GCP. The Steinway Street overpass is 2 blocks west and the 43rd Street one is the next block.

The line is going to have to rollercoaster its way through. Either that, or it will have to climb up and over Amtrak (nope).

It's why extending the line north of Ditmars is the better rail option.

Oh yes, there's that too. No way you're getting over Amtrak without getting in the flightpaths. In New York, we really have to learn how to tell NIMBYs to go pound sand like they seem to be able to do in Chicago.

Edited March 7, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[CenSin]

8 hours ago, mrsman said:

It avoids the issues with branching and would ensure a direct connection to the subway system.

Another potential problem that I think gets overlooked: the MTA will cut corners à la Rockaway connection. See this crappy setup?

I suspect Astoria would get the same if not worse with the branching option.

[Lex]

52 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Another potential problem that I think gets overlooked: the MTA will cut corners à la Rockaway connection. See this crappy setup?

I suspect Astoria would get the same if not worse with the branching option.

Trying to do too much with too little is definitely a problem...

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

Another potential problem that I think gets overlooked: the MTA will cut corners à la Rockaway connection. See this crappy setup?

I suspect Astoria would get the same if not worse with the branching option.

Let's be real here, the MTA will always cut corners and we see this over and over again with plenty of other projects. History will just keep repeating itself until someone wakes up and realizes it's not as effective as it seemed. It's not only the MTA that does this either, politics has a huge part in this as well.

[R10 2952]

Don't want to derail the topic too much, but since people are bringing up the Rockaway Line, I honestly believe that should have been kept within the LIRR system.  The MTA almost admitted as much around 1980 when they were actually considering suspending/abandoning  service to the Rockaways.

Edited March 8, 2022 by R10 2952

[Trainmaster5]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

Another potential problem that I think gets overlooked: the MTA will cut corners à la Rockaway connection. See this crappy setup?

I suspect Astoria would get the same if not worse with the branching option.

Why do people assume that the NYCT takeover of the Rockaway Branch and the  connection south of the Ozone Park station was cutting a corner ? IIRC back in those times Lower Manhattan was a big destination for ridership. It was obviously more important than continuing the branch further to the north toward the old Whitepot Junction with the LIRR where any potential riders would be forced to disembark, pay another fare, and board an LIRR train to Penn Station. Even today my preference would have been to try to find a legal, logistical way to have trains from the Rockaways branch off just north of the Ozone Park Station and connect with the LIRR Atlantic Branch toward Flatbush/ Atlantic Terminal.. Remember that back then the folks north of that point sure weren't clamoring for service north of that point and the politicians , even today, don't see any reason to speak up for it if the voters aren't asking for it. Just my opinion. Carry on.

[Trainmaster5]

8 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Don't want to derail the topic too much, but since people are bringing up the Rockaway Line, I honestly believe that should have been kept within the LIRR system.  The MTA almost admitted as much around 1980 when they were actually considering suspending/abandoning  service to the Rockaways.

Thanks for bringing that point up. The whole deal was a legal compromise so that the Rockaway ridership wasn't totally abandoned by the bankrupt LIRR.

[LGA Link N Train]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:39 PM, R10 2952 said:

Don't want to derail the topic too much, but since people are bringing up the Rockaway Line, I honestly believe that should have been kept within the LIRR system.  The MTA almost admitted as much around 1980 when they were actually considering suspending/abandoning  service to the Rockaways.

Where can I read more about this?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now on the topic of a LaGuardia Rail Link, I am still 100% for the extension north of Ditmars and for the folowing reasons:

- One Seat ride from the terminals to key locations in Midtown and Queens 
- LGA Extension would solve Astoria's terminal Capacity issues and allow for more flexible service patterns in the future (I don't see any reason why the terminal wouldn't be an island platform with an X-Over switch)
- There'd be incentive to build a yard/maintenance facility in Astoria (I know this one along with the proposal in general is controversial) in order to increase capacity although thats between and ConEd

Adding bus improvements to the M60 and Q70 would be Icing on the Cake. While I doubt the possibility of this, it would be smart for the  and Port Authrority to make negotiations if we were to reap any long term benefits out of a Rail Link for LaGuardia.


 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:46 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Why do people assume that the NYCT takeover of the Rockaway Branch and the  connection south of the Ozone Park station was cutting a corner ? IIRC back in those times Lower Manhattan was a big destination for ridership. It was obviously more important than continuing the branch further to the north toward the old Whitepot Junction with the LIRR where any potential riders would be forced to disembark, pay another fare, and board an LIRR train to Penn Station. Even today my preference would have been to try to find a legal, logistical way to have trains from the Rockaways branch off just north of the Ozone Park Station and connect with the LIRR Atlantic Branch toward Flatbush/ Atlantic Terminal.. Remember that back then the folks north of that point sure weren't clamoring for service north of that point and the politicians , even today, don't see any reason to speak up for it if the voters aren't asking for it. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Right, but that was when Lower Manhattan was a much bigger destination for commuter ridership (although it was starting to decline in the mid-1950s). I wouldn’t be opposed to connecting the Rockaway Branch to the Atlantic Branch. But then it would basically duplicate the , unless it were to go somewhere in Manhattan or Brooklyn that the  doesn’t. LIRR was more than happy to get rid of the branch in the 50s and they certainly don’t seem to want it back. In fact, given their plans to reduce it to a glorified shuttle train between Jamaica and Flatbush, I’m not  sure the LIRR even wants the Atlantic Branch now. At least if Rockaway goes farther north, towards Rego Park, it can provide a nice option for intra-Queens riders, including to Long Island City. I know State Sen. Stacy Pfeffer-Amato is in favor of restoring service on the Rockaway Branch, as was her predecessor in the State senate. 

10 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Where can I read more about this?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now on the topic of a LaGuardia Rail Link, I am still 100% for the extension north of Ditmars and for the folowing reasons:

- One Seat ride from the terminals to key locations in Midtown and Queens 
- LGA Extension would solve Astoria's terminal Capacity issues and allow for more flexible service patterns in the future (I don't see any reason why the terminal wouldn't be an island platform with an X-Over switch)
- There'd be incentive to build a yard/maintenance facility in Astoria (I know this one along with the proposal in general is controversial) in order to increase capacity although thats between and ConEd

Adding bus improvements to the M60 and Q70 would be Icing on the Cake. While I doubt the possibility of this, it would be smart for the  and Port Authrority to make negotiations if we were to reap any long term benefits out of a Rail Link for LaGuardia.


 

I didn’t know the MTA were considering abandoning  service to the Rockaways in 1980. But then again, they were strongly considering curtailing  and  service in The Bronx,  service in Brooklyn and shutting down the  entirely back then, so I wouldn’t have put it past them to abandon the Rockaways.

 I’m also in favor of the  (or just  if Broadway is untangled at 34th St) being extended from Ditmars. If it weren’t for the flightpaths and Amtrak’s high viaduct in Steinway, then I wouldn’t be opposed to the branching  option. But the flightpaths, less frequent train service and the Amtrak viaduct are obstacles - and bigger, more legitimate ones than any NIMBYs on 31st St between Ditmars and 20th Ave, so that’s why I favor the Ditmars extension.

[R10 2952]

14 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Where can I read more about this?

4 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I didn’t know the MTA were considering abandoning  service to the Rockaways in 1980. But then again, they were strongly considering curtailing  and  service in The Bronx,  service in Brooklyn and shutting down the  entirely back then, so I wouldn’t have put it past them to abandon the Rockaways.

It's here: https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_New_York_Transit_Authority_in_the_1980s

"Funding was so tight that there was real consideration of closing either the IND Concourse Line or the IRT Jerome Avenue Line, dropping IND service to the Rockaways and running buses instead, truncating the BMT Jamaica Line in Brooklyn and cutting back service on the Staten Island Rapid Transit.33"

Edited March 10, 2022 by R10 2952

[shiznit1987]

I know it's not a consideration but I think extending the SAS to LGA should be on the table. I'd build this in lew of terminating the SAS at 125/Lex. You can have the line run down 125th to Randalls Island, then basically paralell the GCP all the way to the airport with a transfer spot at Astoria Blvd. Astoria voters would love it since it would give the area a second subway option as well. 

[CenSin]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:46 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Why do people assume that the NYCT takeover of the Rockaway Branch and the  connection south of the Ozone Park station was cutting a corner ? IIRC back in those times Lower Manhattan was a big destination for ridership. It was obviously more important than continuing the branch further to the north toward the old Whitepot Junction with the LIRR where any potential riders would be forced to disembark, pay another fare, and board an LIRR train to Penn Station. Even today my preference would have been to try to find a legal, logistical way to have trains from the Rockaways branch off just north of the Ozone Park Station and connect with the LIRR Atlantic Branch toward Flatbush/ Atlantic Terminal.. Remember that back then the folks north of that point sure weren't clamoring for service north of that point and the politicians , even today, don't see any reason to speak up for it if the voters aren't asking for it. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Far from my original intention. I intended to highlight the track set-up—how the MTA takes the absolute laziest way to connect new lines to existing ones. The other examples are the Dyre Avenue branch which connects only to the local tracks and the plan to connect the Queens bypass only to the local tracks east of Forest Hills.

Something changed between the IND and the MTA. The IND often avoided hard-wiring connections such that only one option was available and avoided creating breaks in existing track to shoehorn in another connection. One of the few places where the MTA made better engineering decisions was the 63 Street-Queens Boulevard connector, though they still cannibalized half of he pocket track to make way for a ramp.

[Trainmaster5]

2 hours ago, CenSin said:

Far from my original intention. I intended to highlight the track set-up—how the MTA takes the absolute laziest way to connect new lines to existing ones. The other examples are the Dyre Avenue branch which connects only to the local tracks and the plan to connect the Queens bypass only to the local tracks east of Forest Hills.

Something changed between the IND and the MTA. The IND often avoided hard-wiring connections such that only one option was available and avoided creating breaks in existing track to shoehorn in another connection. One of the few places where the MTA made better engineering decisions was the 63 Street-Queens Boulevard connector, though they still cannibalized half of he pocket track to make way for a ramp.

Perhaps I took your post in a different context. If so I apologize. As for the Dyre connection at East 180th Street you have to know the layout between there and northward to Morris Park. The original trackage led to the Unionport Station located east of the East 180th St of today. That’s why when today’s  line was connected to the mainline the flyover and the n/b tracks to Morris Park station connected with the local tracks and not the express. Only the flyover had to be constructed. The White Plains line was the East Side Lexington line while the Dyre line was the  line to New Lots via Seventh Avenue. Think of 241st as the East Side terminal historically. Lexington and Third Avenue trains were running out of the station and the yard up there from Day One while Seventh Avenue service ran out of the old Bronx Park station just north of East Tremont station. My school car instructors in both titles walked us along the tracks between the East, Morris Park, and the original Unionport station drilling that history into our heads almost daily. We still laugh because most people, even Bronx residents under a certain age, don’t know that the Dyre line was an IND line because it was taken over after the IRT and BMT were taken over by the City. Just a little bit of history. Carry on.