The 2025 Rockaways A Train Shutdown

[TDL]

https://qns.com/2023/06/mta-rockaway-resiliency-project/
 

It’s sad that this hasn’t been publicized more. Meanwhile the  shutdown and the  swap was advertised extensively. This will be a SEVERE disruption to a transit desert. 
 

It would be nice if we could single track across the bridge and flats! But since we can’t, I propose the following to mitigate the damage.

 

1) LIRR Cross Honoring

2) Q115 Limited Bus

   Far Rockaway-Brooklyn College via. Beach Channel Dr.

3) Q116 LIMITED

   Far Rockaway-Sheepshead Bay vía. Rockaway Beach Blvd.

4)  to Lefferts. Don’t split the  AND make shuttle buses required.

5) Howard Beach-Mott Ave Shuttle Bus

6) Rockaway Blvd-Beach 90 Street vía. Broad Channel Shuttle Bus.

7)  train Far Rock-Rock Pk, FARE FREE

[Kamen Rider]

Sure, and while we’re at it, let’s give them a hovercraft….

 

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

1 hour ago, TDL said:

https://qns.com/2023/06/mta-rockaway-resiliency-project/
 

It’s sad that this hasn’t been publicized more. Meanwhile the  shutdown and the  swap was advertised extensively. This will be a SEVERE disruption to a transit desert. 
 

It would be nice if we could single track across the bridge and flats! But since we can’t, I propose the following to mitigate the damage.

 

1) LIRR Cross Honoring

2) Q115 Limited Bus

   Far Rockaway-Brooklyn College via. Beach Channel Dr.

3) Q116 LIMITED

   Far Rockaway-Sheepshead Bay vía. Rockaway Beach Blvd.

4)  to Lefferts. Don’t split the  AND make shuttle buses required.

5) Howard Beach-Mott Ave Shuttle Bus

6) Rockaway Blvd-Beach 90 Street vía. Broad Channel Shuttle Bus.

7)  train Far Rock-Rock Pk, FARE FREE

The article mentions that LIRR cross honoring is part of the plan for the Rockaways shutdowns. The Rockaway Shuttle is planned to run between Rockaway Park & Far Rockaway (not fare-free) during the planned shutdown period.

Also, putting more strain on Lefferts would not be a good idea as  trains are still going to terminate there during the time the Rockaways are inaccessible and Howard Beach would not be able to handle all the  trains that would be taken off Lefferts if the  were to go there instead. All I see from that is Ozone Park riders complaining about the service reduction with putting the  there during the planned shutdowns.

For buses, the only planned things are beefed up service on the existing routes on top of a non-stop shuttle between Howard Beach & Far Rock, plus a shuttle between Beach 67th & Broad Channel. Not sure how a 35 Limited would be beneficial for  train riders that don't go to Flatbush aside from adding travel time to get to the alternate  and  service.

[Lex]

48 minutes ago, Kingsbridgeviewer382 said:

Also, putting more strain on Lefferts would not be a good idea as  trains are still going to terminate there during the time the Rockaways are inaccessible and Howard Beach would not be able to handle all the  trains that would be taken off Lefferts if the  were to go there instead. All I see from that is Ozone Park riders complaining about the service reduction with putting the  there during the planned shutdowns.

The way I see it, any plan of that sort under the given constraints would involve having some  trains short-turn at Euclid Avenue while the rest would continue to Howard Beach. That would be more like shuffling deck chairs.

As for the three-stop Q112 brigade, well...

[TDL]

7 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

Sure, and while we’re at it, let’s give them a hovercraft….

 

Great idea!

[TDL]

7 hours ago, Kingsbridgeviewer382 said:

The article mentions that LIRR cross honoring is part of the plan for the Rockaways shutdowns. The Rockaway Shuttle is planned to run between Rockaway Park & Far Rockaway (not fare-free) during the planned shutdown period.

Also, putting more strain on Lefferts would not be a good idea as  trains are still going to terminate there during the time the Rockaways are inaccessible and Howard Beach would not be able to handle all the  trains that would be taken off Lefferts if the  were to go there instead. All I see from that is Ozone Park riders complaining about the service reduction with putting the  there during the planned shutdowns.

For buses, the only planned things are beefed up service on the existing routes on top of a non-stop shuttle between Howard Beach & Far Rock, plus a shuttle between Beach 67th & Broad Channel. Not sure how a 35 Limited would be beneficial for  train riders that don't go to Flatbush aside from adding travel time to get to the alternate  and  service.

How many tph can Howard Beach turn? If inadequate, then some shuttle buses should originate from Lefferts Blvd non stop to Mott. No need to have your trains infrequent AND not going where you're going. 

I do think there should be connections to the  for Downtown Brooklyn/Lower Manhattan access. 

Just like after Sandy, there should be three legged transfers. The Q115/116 mitigates the need for those however. 

The  should be fare free to reduce the need for GO tickets or a double fare being charged. 

[NoHacksJustKhaks]

you know, I'd love a hovercraft right about now XD. 

But yeah, this is gonna be a massive pain, and i dont think i've ever heard of that idea of turning 105 into a terminal station. That's exceptionally bizzare sounding to me, maybe because Broad channel is also very low lying.

[TDL]

4 minutes ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

you know, I'd love a hovercraft right about now XD. 

But yeah, this is gonna be a massive pain, and i dont think i've ever heard of that idea of turning 105 into a terminal station. That's exceptionally bizzare sounding to me, maybe because Broad channel is also very low lying.

They want a terminus not flood prone so that if another Sandy happens, the  or can run from Mott/Inwood-105th, since Rockaway Park is flood prone.

[Robert Spire]

I would like to see off peak QM16 and QM17 service to be part of the plan. 

[TDL]

23 minutes ago, Robert Spire said:

I would like to see off peak QM16 and QM17 service to be part of the plan. 

Definitely an idea. Or some sort of express microbus to Lower Manhattan (in lieu of the Q115/116 idea). If it uses microbuses similar to Access-a-Ride it can use the Belt Parkway. After stopping in Rockaway it can run non stop via the Belt/BQE terminating at Fulton Center.

[TDL]

1 minute ago, TDL said:

Definitely an idea. Or some sort of express microbus to Lower Manhattan (in lieu of the Q115/116 idea). If it uses microbuses similar to Access-a-Ride it can use the Belt Parkway. After stopping in Rockaway it can run non stop via the Belt/BQE terminating at Fulton Center.

However a Q115/116 would probably cost less and can use standard buses, only using the Belt Pkwy between exits 11 and 9.

Edited May 23 by TDL

[FLX9304]

3 hours ago, TDL said:

However a Q115/116 would probably cost less and can use standard buses, only using the Belt Pkwy between exits 11 and 9.

Q115 is part of the redesign plan 

Q116 & Q117 are available 

[TDL]

21 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

Q115 is part of the redesign plan 

Q116 & Q117 are available 

You're absolutely right. 

 

REVISED Proposal

1) LIRR Cross Honoring

2) Q116 Limited Bus

   Far Rockaway-Brooklyn College via. Beach Channel Dr.

3) Q117 LIMITED

   Far Rockaway-Sheepshead Bay vía. Rockaway Beach Blvd.

4) Q118-Howard Beach/Lefferts Blvd-Mott Ave FREE Shuttle Bus. This way passengers can use either  train

5) Q119-Rockaway Blvd-Beach 90 Street FREE Shuttle Bus, stopping at Broad Channel.

6)  train Far Rock-Rock Pk, FARE FREE

7) QM16/QM17 off peak and weekend service

8)NYC Ferry enhanced service. Extend Rockaway Ferry to DUMBO after Wall St for Downtown Brooklyn Connections. Extend St. George Ferry to Sunset Pk so the West Side is accessible with a transfer.

[RTOMan]

Reassignment City!

[Kamen Rider]

On 5/23/2024 at 8:31 AM, TDL said:

Great idea!

we need to work on your understanding of sarcasm...

 

You are going way too overboard with these extra buses on the peninsula. they're overlapping too much.

Just as an example, at Beach 90th at the height of the rush, you'll have the Q22, the Q52 SBS, the Q116, the Q117, the Q119 and the QM17 all jockeying for bus stop space. 

Your Q116 suggestion does not need to go to Far Rockaway and the Q117 does not need to exist at all. 

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

21 hours ago, TDL said:

You're absolutely right. 

 

REVISED Proposal

1) LIRR Cross Honoring

2) Q116 Limited Bus

   Far Rockaway-Brooklyn College via. Beach Channel Dr.

3) Q117 LIMITED

   Far Rockaway-Sheepshead Bay vía. Rockaway Beach Blvd.

4) Q118-Howard Beach/Lefferts Blvd-Mott Ave FREE Shuttle Bus. This way passengers can use either  train

5) Q119-Rockaway Blvd-Beach 90 Street FREE Shuttle Bus, stopping at Broad Channel.

6)  train Far Rock-Rock Pk, FARE FREE

7) QM16/QM17 off peak and weekend service

8)NYC Ferry enhanced service. Extend Rockaway Ferry to DUMBO after Wall St for Downtown Brooklyn Connections. Extend St. George Ferry to Sunset Pk so the West Side is accessible with a transfer.

You're still putting too much for a shutdown period that's only lasting for half a year. I'm pretty sure a lot of these would end up not being used and some of the ideas you put (cross honoring and the shuttle service from Rockaway Park to Far Rock (not fare-free)) are already part of the plans.

Besides, there aren't a lot of bus ops available to justify creating these routes. If anything, you'll see cuts to the current Rockaways routes to see those in fruition.

[4P3607]

On 5/23/2024 at 10:51 AM, Robert Spire said:

I would like to see off peak QM16 and QM17 service to be part of the plan. 

In 2020 the overnight QM17 making all stops served quite well using all local buses. I used it a few times myself with the bus having a notably fully-seated crowd each time during all hours of the night. Understandably this was when subway service was closed to regular passengers at night entirely.

On 5/22/2024 at 11:00 PM, TDL said:

4)  to Lefferts. Don’t split the  AND make shuttle buses required.

to Lefferts would create a bottleneck at Euclid inevitably delaying both services. Ozone Park riders are not willing to lose their express service. I wish those who propose a extension to Lefferts would consider these two factors, especially the first. You should see the crowd that waits for the first Express of the morning letting the last Shuttle go. 

On 5/22/2024 at 11:00 PM, TDL said:

https://qns.com/2023/06/mta-rockaway-resiliency-project/

I could not find any statement in the article that the proposed Far Rock - Rock Park Shuttle will be designated as , although this would make sense. 

This brings me to the question, will a temporary service barn be installed in the Rockaway Area (such as how Fresh Pond Yard did for the shuttle in 2017-2018) or will trains continue to be maintained by Pitkin having to make the trip up/down the flats while repairs are taking place similar to during Sandy? 

Curious to know what equipment will be assigned out there considering the R-46 are to be pushed out by incoming R-211. Not sure if they're willing to keep NTTs down there for months at a time, but we'll see what happens knowing Transit can change their decisions at any time for whatever reason. I will point out that some R-42s were assigned to that shuttle despite not having older equipment serve the line for nearly a decade. 

 

[zacster]

24 minutes ago, 4P3607 said:

You should see the crowd that waits for the first Express of the morning letting the last Shuttle go. 

 

I took the red-eye from San Francisco home a little while back and decided to take the subway home.  I used BART, MUNI and biked while in SF, and thought I could do similar at home too.  As the AirTrain is pulling into Howard Beach station I see the A train pulling out so I had to wait for the next one.  The next one was the first express from Far Rock.  It was packed.  So yes, they do time their trips for the express.  I transferred to the first C train too to go to Franklin for the Shuttle.  It was conveniently across the platform at Utica.

[R32 3838]

2 hours ago, 4P3607 said:

In 2020 the overnight QM17 making all stops served quite well using all local buses. I used it a few times myself with the bus having a notably fully-seated crowd each time during all hours of the night. Understandably this was when subway service was closed to regular passengers at night entirely.

to Lefferts would create a bottleneck at Euclid inevitably delaying both services. Ozone Park riders are not willing to lose their express service. I wish those who propose a extension to Lefferts would consider these two factors, especially the first. You should see the crowd that waits for the first Express of the morning letting the last Shuttle go. 

I could not find any statement in the article that the proposed Far Rock - Rock Park Shuttle will be designated as , although this would make sense. 

This brings me to the question, will a temporary service barn be installed in the Rockaway Area (such as how Fresh Pond Yard did for the shuttle in 2017-2018) or will trains continue to be maintained by Pitkin having to make the trip up/down the flats while repairs are taking place similar to during Sandy? 

Curious to know what equipment will be assigned out there considering the R-46 are to be pushed out by incoming R-211. Not sure if they're willing to keep NTTs down there for months at a time, but we'll see what happens knowing Transit can change their decisions at any time for whatever reason. I will point out that some R-42s were assigned to that shuttle despite not having older equipment serve the line for nearly a decade. 

 

They only put the R42's (originally was going to be R32s) on the because that new barn in fresh pond yard could only fit a pair of subway cars. Now that barn is used to work on the diesels.

 

They'll likely use the techs or go outside the box and use the R68s, This won't be a situation like sandy where they had to use R32's because of them weighing less than an R46 and had to use cranes to airlift them from south of aqueduct.

[darkstar8983]

Likely they’ll use the R46s for that shuttle then retire them soon as the tracks open up, to leave the R179s and R211s on the mainline  train 

[Wallyhorse]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:57 AM, Kingsbridgeviewer382 said:

The article mentions that LIRR cross honoring is part of the plan for the Rockaways shutdowns. The Rockaway Shuttle is planned to run between Rockaway Park & Far Rockaway (not fare-free) during the planned shutdown period.

Also, putting more strain on Lefferts would not be a good idea as  trains are still going to terminate there during the time the Rockaways are inaccessible and Howard Beach would not be able to handle all the  trains that would be taken off Lefferts if the  were to go there instead. All I see from that is Ozone Park riders complaining about the service reduction with putting the  there during the planned shutdowns.

For buses, the only planned things are beefed up service on the existing routes on top of a non-stop shuttle between Howard Beach & Far Rock, plus a shuttle between Beach 67th & Broad Channel. Not sure how a 35 Limited would be beneficial for  train riders that don't go to Flatbush aside from adding travel time to get to the alternate  and  service.

This is a perfect example of why I would build a short-turn island platform at Aqueduct Racetrack (with a pedestrian bridge over the northbound track that would allow for southbound trains to stop at the racetrack/casino and more importantly when necessary be able to short-turn there in addition to Howard Beach.  If I'm running the casino I'd actually be willing to pay for that with the idea on weekends of also if possible running "Casino Express" trains, possibly from 96th-2nd to Aqueduct Racetrack (running on the SAS and then from Lexington-63rd the old JFK Express route). 

[TDL]

14 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

we need to work on your understanding of sarcasm...

 

You are going way too overboard with these extra buses on the peninsula. they're overlapping too much.

Just as an example, at Beach 90th at the height of the rush, you'll have the Q22, the Q52 SBS, the Q116, the Q117, the Q119 and the QM17 all jockeying for bus stop space. 

Your Q116 suggestion does not need to go to Far Rockaway and the Q117 does not need to exist at all. 

Q116 is on RBB, Q117 on Beach Channel Drive. Two different roadways. 

[TDL]

If Ozone Park temporarily loses an express it’s for the greater good and fair compensation. If  to Lefferts or a Q116/117/119 really isn’t possible, have the non stop shuttles from Mott serve either Lefferts Or Howard Beach (one bus non stop to Howard Beach, the other non stop to Lefferts). Why? Because Rockaway riders should not have to suffer the same unreliable 20 minute headways they do now at some points of the day just to board a train that only takes them to a shuttle bus.

But the QM16/17 should expand and the  should definitely be fair free to avoid a double fare zone or wasting paper to print tens of thousands of GO tickets.

[Kamen Rider]

5 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

This is a perfect example of why I would build a short-turn island platform at Aqueduct Racetrack (with a pedestrian bridge over the northbound track that would allow for southbound trains to stop at the racetrack/casino and more importantly when necessary be able to short-turn there in addition to Howard Beach.  If I'm running the casino I'd actually be willing to pay for that with the idea on weekends of also if possible running "Casino Express" trains, possibly from 96th-2nd to Aqueduct Racetrack (running on the SAS and then from Lexington-63rd the old JFK Express route). 

okay 1: Can you go FIVE MINTUES without suggesting another service up the SAS? seriously? I know that's your old neck of the woods, but come on...

second, we don't have room for that "short turn" platform, especially since, you know, the airport is two stops away. If you told me you wanted to build a third platform at Howard beach, I could understand that that actually could be justifiable... but the casino is never going to be the traffic generator that would justify short turns, even under these circumstances. 

2 hours ago, TDL said:

Q116 is on RBB, Q117 on Beach Channel Drive. Two different roadways. 

they are not going to put a bus on BCD.

2 hours ago, TDL said:

If Ozone Park temporarily loses an express it’s for the greater good and fair compensation.

no it isn't and no it is definitely not. operationally that makes no sense. 

2 hours ago, TDL said:

. Why? Because Rockaway riders should not have to suffer the same unreliable 20 minute headways they do now at some points of the day just to board a train that only takes them to a shuttle bus.

You know, I had to put up with 2 months of zero train service and 8 months of single-track shuttles every 10-20 minutes all day when they rebuilt the Myrtle el in 2017-2018... and nobody cared. nobody complained. no one raised a high holy stink about how "unfair" it was. Now, when someone else is inconvenienced, some people try to move heaven and earth to placate them... and in my sorry state, all I still get are people trying to take my service... and coming soon, my regular job, away for the sake of their pet projects.   

 

heck, you know what Rockaway has right now, that I don't? 

24/7 direct service to midtown Manhattan. I have to transfer twice to the same late nights. every other station in the subway can get to the 42nd Street super station with only one or two seats, even after midnight. I need three.  

[NBTA]

On 5/23/2024 at 2:48 PM, TDL said:

You're absolutely right. 

 

REVISED Proposal

1) LIRR Cross Honoring

2) Q116 Limited Bus

   Far Rockaway-Brooklyn College via. Beach Channel Dr.

3) Q117 LIMITED

   Far Rockaway-Sheepshead Bay vía. Rockaway Beach Blvd.

4) Q118-Howard Beach/Lefferts Blvd-Mott Ave FREE Shuttle Bus. This way passengers can use either  train

5) Q119-Rockaway Blvd-Beach 90 Street FREE Shuttle Bus, stopping at Broad Channel.

6)  train Far Rock-Rock Pk, FARE FREE

7) QM16/QM17 off peak and weekend service

8)NYC Ferry enhanced service. Extend Rockaway Ferry to DUMBO after Wall St for Downtown Brooklyn Connections. Extend St. George Ferry to Sunset Pk so the West Side is accessible with a transfer.

Another day, another Sheepshead Bay-Far Rockaway bus line..

Only 1, 6, and 7 are feasible and will probably happen.