R179 Discussion Thread

[Grand Concourse]

Other than because of the C having them and maintaining them over in Pitkin, not much. I think the r179s would be better off going to CI yd so the Q will have the trains needed to be sent up to 96th st. Or they could send the r179s to jyd to push off some r160s for the Q.

[mtattrain]

I'm waiting for someone to explain the logic in the R179s going to the .

Keep waiting, cuz there is none lol.

 

I think that the R179 4-car sets will be split between the and the Eastern Division Lines ( / / and maybe ) while the R179 5-car sets go to Jamaica ; they were talking about QBL CBTC and how new trains would have them...

Edited January 22, 2013 by mtattrain

[Guest Lance]

Even if the 50 cars of 179s were somehow related to Queens Boulevard CBTC, and I doubt it would be, putting CBTC signals there while a large percentage of trains running on that line are 46s would be a waste of time right now. Given all the times the R trains are sent on the express tracks in Queens, the system would in bypass mode every day. No, I have a feeling the 211 (or whatever number) order will be a prerequisite for CBTC on Queens Blvd.

[R211 10001]

Put them on the and give the R160s from the to the .

 

Or, install CBTC on the R160s.

[LTA1992]

Two things:

 

1) Just like R179s going to the , can someone explain the logic of them going to Jamaica? By the time that the 5 car sets of 179s arrive, Phase I SAS should be almost done. Therefore like always specified.

 

2) I'm confident that the R211 will be CBTC compatible. BUT. That would mean giving the and lines R160s.

 

EDIT: I thought about it and, point 2 ACTUALLY makes sense as it would, for the most part, simplify maintanence as Pitkin would be all NTT.

Edited January 22, 2013 by LTA1992

[RollOver]

I thought CBTC will go everywhere eventually soon. Aren't the R160s on the  , , ,  and gonna be CBTC compatible? I would also like to include the other NTT fleets (R142/142A).

Edited January 22, 2013 by RollOverMyHead

[mtattrain]

I thought CBTC will go everywhere eventually soon. Aren't the R160s on the  , , ,  and gonna be CBTC compatible? I would also like to include the other NTT fleets (R142/142A).

They could, but it's too much work.

 

Two things:

 

1) Just like R179s going to the , can someone explain the logic of them going to Jamaica? By the time that the 5 car sets of 179s arrive, Phase I SAS should be almost done. Therefore like always specified.

 

2) I'm confident that the R211 will be CBTC compatible. BUT. That would mean giving the and lines R160s.

 

EDIT: I thought about it and, point 2 ACTUALLY makes sense as it would, for the most part, simplify maintanence as Pitkin would be all NTT.

I was thinking that R68s and R68As might go on the and Rockaway ; the is the old line fleet as far as I remember...

[Far Rock Depot]

SMH. Technically, its not the old line fleet. It was never classified that nor is currently. Only one class was transferred specifically for retirement and those were the R40 Slants. Due to those cars needing to be based at 207 for reefing.  Everything else retired from the line were already assigned to it. The A is actually the "Showcase". But neither the 'old line fleet' nor 'Showcase' refers to what runs on it but a matter of fact that a majority of pilot trains are tested on the A - R160s included. 

 

How does one car class make a line the "death line"? And before the 160s, almost every line had old cars. Just because the A has yet to receive NTTs doesnt mean its standard practice that the A MUST have old cars. 

 

 

And before anyone does, lets not bring up the alleged "power problems" The A has multiple branches. 

[LTA1992]

I heard the power problems in the Rockaways were solved last year.

 

@RollOverMyHead: Only the 64 R160s on the are CBTC compatible. They had to be retrofitted though. The same could be done with any NTT really.

Edited January 22, 2013 by LTA1992

[RollOver]

I was naive to not realize that any yard in the subway retires old trains in the shop or where ever in the barns, not just 207th Street Yard. Yes, Far Rock Depot convince me last summer in this thread that the and routes can also run new cars and not just old cars. Not to mention the and routes won't be seeing any new trains for the rest of the decade as Concourse/Coney Island continues to maintain their R68/68As. No train or bus routes are the "death" routes. It's just the fact that the R32s are what the requires that right number of for example. Nothing else. The 207th are just capable of housing those cars until they retire and they finally get the R179s.

Edited January 22, 2013 by RollOverMyHead

[R211 10001]

I thought CBTC will go everywhere eventually soon. Aren't the R160s on the  , , ,  and gonna be CBTC compatible? I would also like to include the other NTT fleets (R142/142A).

 

Just the and , and I think the .

[Far Rock Depot]

NTTs are built with the capability of having the CBTC equipment installed easily with no major car modifications other than the cabs (like the current conversions of 142As to 188s). Once a line becomes CBTC active, its cars have the equipment installed when needed. It saves on overall weight and costs during initial construction of said cars.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Far Rock Depot

[ttcsubwayfan]

i think of the 16 cars, 2 of them were probably severely damaged because the very north of the station is at an angle and more water gathered by the bumpers.

 

IIRC, one of the employees mentioned that the 8 cars at the north end of the station were losses, while the other 8 would be repaired. Don't quote me on that, though.

[Drag0nflamez]

 

NTTs are built with the capability of having the CBTC equipment installed easily with no major car modifications other than the cabs (like the current conversions of 142As to 188s). Once a line becomes CBTC active, its cars have the equipment installed when needed. It saves on overall weight and costs during initial construction of said cars.

And would allow the choice of what CBTC system will be installed eventually all over the system. (or at least most of a division)

[Art Vandelay]

Cars from the R143 onwards were built to have CBTC installed easily. The R142/As unfortunately have no such ability. That is why the relatively extensive R188 conversion contract is necessary. Nothing big was needed for the R143 and R160 conversions.

 

Unless I am mistaken, the only reason the A got the R160s for testing was that they had issues in south brooklyn when they were testing them on the N. I have never seen any definitive proof that the Rockaways ever had an issue, and considering that the Rockaway line was used for acceptance testing, I highly doubt there ever was such an issue.

[AndrewJC]

I'm waiting for someone to explain the logic in the R179s going to the .

 

I've explained it already: so that only two shops, not three, need to stock the equipment and train the personnel to maintain R179's. While R179's will look very similar to R160's, they will be very different cars under the hood. Minimizing the number of shops that need to work with them minimizes costs and maximizes reliability.

 

I'm waiting for someone to explain the logic in the R179s going anywhere else.

 

Other than because of the C having them and maintaining them over in Pitkin, not much. I think the r179s would be better off going to CI yd so the Q will have the trains needed to be sent up to 96th st. Or they could send the r179s to jyd to push off some r160s for the Q.

 

There is no question that the net increase in trains, or at least most of it, will be at Coney Island. (There may be a few additional trains added elsewhere due to ridership growth, but most are for SAS.) That doesn't mean that the new cars themselves need to go directly to Coney Island. They can go to 207th St. for the A (sharing a maintenance facility with the C), freeing up some R46's to go Jamaica for the F, freeing up some R160's to go to Coney Island for the restored W.

 

Keep waiting, cuz there is none lol.

 

I think that the R179 4-car sets will be split between the and the Eastern Division Lines ( / / and maybe ) while the R179 5-car sets go to Jamaica ; they were talking about QBL CBTC and how new trains would have them...

 

Only the R143's and 64 R160's have Canarsie CBTC packages; those are the only cars that will run on the L.

 

Even if the R179's were to displace 36 R46's out of Jamaica (incidentally, where would they go?), there would still be hundreds of R46's left - not helpful for CBTC. By the time QBL CBTC is completed, the R211's will probably have replaced all of Jamaica's R46's. (The only other alternative would be a major swap of Jamaica R46's and Coney Island R160's, but that's messy, and it leaves Coney Island stuck having to maintain a fleet of car that it's never maintained before, but for only a year or two before they're retired.)

 

I thought CBTC will go everywhere eventually soon. Aren't the R160s on the  , , ,  and gonna be CBTC compatible? I would also like to include the other NTT fleets (R142/142A).

 

All R143+ cars are CBTC-ready. They don't come with CBTC packages preinstalled - the final CBTC specs haven't been determined yet (Canarsie and Flushing have their own unique CBTC systems that won't be compatible with each other or with the rest of the system).

 

CBTC will eventually go everywhere, but it will take decades - recently resignaled lines, like Concourse, won't need their signals replaced for probably 50+ years.

[RollOver]

Okay then, I kept on forgetting that most lines have new signals.

[LTA1992]

I've explained it already: so that only two shops, not three, need to stock the equipment and train the personnel to maintain R179's. While R179's will look very similar to R160's, they will be very different cars under the hood. Minimizing the number of shops that need to work with them minimizes costs and maximizes reliability.

Actually, they will be very similar under the hood to the R160. That was known for a long time. It seems that nowadays, major design changes are reflected by the first digit number of the contract. The first design change will obviously be the R211 which was again, already stated..

[AndrewJC]

Actually, they will be very similar under the hood to the R160. That was known for a long time.

 

No they won't. The car builder is different and many of the components will be different. They will look similar, and that's about it.

 

It seems that nowadays, major design changes are reflected by the first digit number of the contract. The first design change will obviously be the R211 which was again, already stated..

 

Nonsense. Contract numbers are assigned sequentially.

 

This isn't a question of car design; it's a question of components. Two very different components can provide identical functionality, and it's up to the car builder to select the exact components. Bombardier is making different decisions with the R179 order than Alskaw made with the R160 order.

[LTA1992]

No they won't. The car builder is different and many of the components will be different. They will look similar, and that's about it.

 

 

Nonsense. Contract numbers are assigned sequentially.

 

This isn't a question of car design; it's a question of components. Two very different components can provide identical functionality, and it's up to the car builder to select the exact components. Bombardier is making different decisions with the R179 order than Alskaw made with the R160 order.

 

They said they are buildig off the 160. Just like the 160 built off the 143. Why is it that you think that just because the car is built by someone else, it can't be similar? Have you forgotten the SMEEs already? Not all of them were built by the same company and yet every car from R10-R38 along with the R62/A and R68/A are almost identical under the hood.

 

I like how you said "Nonsense. Contract numbers are assigned sequentially" yet there are ALOT of empty spaces. Why is it that the next gen NTT is the 211 and not anything between 189-199? How much you wanna bet that 3 orders after the 211, the next next gen will be a 300.

 

Think about it. NTT prototypes are the R130 and R131 (Design phase numbers are R110A/B). The first NTTS are R142 and R143. Next is R160. Followed by R179 and R188. Now entering the Next Generation, first number is 211. Anything not covered until R142 are work cars. R146 is the last fully sequential contract number used. In the 150s, we have the R156 which built off the 160. 160s and 170s are virtually empty aside from the notable R174 (Identical to R156). The 188 is the only car in the 180s. 2 other slots in the 180s that are filled belong to equipment.

 

I feel that's the way they are going.

 

Makes sense?

Edited January 23, 2013 by LTA1992

[itmaybeokay]

I like how you said "Nonsense. Contract numbers are assigned sequentially" yet there are ALOT of empty spaces. Why is it that the next gen NTT is the 211 and not anything between 189-199? How much you wanna bet that 3 orders after the 211, the next next gen will be a 300.

 

Think about it. NTT prototypes are the R130 and R131 (Design phase numbers are R110A/B). The first NTTS are R142 and R143. Next is R160. Followed by R179 and R188. Now entering the Next Generation, first number is 211. Anything not covered until R142 are work cars. R146 is the last fully sequential contract number used. In the 150s, we have the R156 which built off the 160. 160s and 170s are virtually empty aside from the notable R174 (Identical to R156). The 188 is the only car in the 180s. 2 other slots in the 180s that are filled belong to equipment.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the R- contract numbers are used for more things than just subway cars, hence the "gaps". I know they're used for work motors and locomotives too. The R-127 refuse motor is built off the R62, and is demonstrably not NTT so, I really doubt the numbering scheme has some secret code to it. 

[Far Rock Depot]

There are gaps in the contract numbers because its not just revenue cars that get "R" contracts. Work cars, components, rebuilds, etc.....

And in some cases, just because the contrct is different, and the builders are different doesnt mean its completely different under the hood. New Car Engineering will usually try to uniform components. Although one thing is for sure, the Trucks DO depend on the builder. Since Bombardier won the 179, IMHO,expect trucks to be kind of similar to their fleet of 142s unless theyve recently imporved their design. 

[Art Vandelay]

There are no empty contract numbers.

 

If you are referring to the list I think you are, they are empty because the person who created the list retired from the MTA. the order after the R179 is the R180. The order after that is the R181. It just so happens that the next passenger car order was 9 contracts later. The one after that happened to be 23 contracts later.

 

The SMEEs happened to have the same subsystems- the propulsion equipment would be either GE or WH. GE cars worked well with other GE cars, and WH worked well with other WH cars. GE and WH could work together, but often not as well- there was a noticable reduction in ride quality. They ran together anyway, but they were designed to do so.

 

R179s and R160s are not designed to run together. There is no effort being made to make them compatible, and a number of parts used on the R160 have been discontinued, others have already been specified by bombardier as different. 

[LTA1992]

If I'm not mistaken, the R- contract numbers are used for more things than just subway cars, hence the "gaps". I know they're used for work motors and locomotives too. The R-127 refuse motor is built off the R62, and is demonstrably not NTT so, I really doubt the numbering scheme has some secret code to it. 

I did say "Any numbers not covered up to R142 are taken by work cars". After R146 MANY numbers are not taken by anything. Not even equipment. And that wouldn't be a secret code. That would be, "Let's group up each Generation"

Edited January 23, 2013 by LTA1992

[CDTA]

I've explained it already: so that only two shops, not three, need to stock the equipment and train the personnel to maintain R179's. While R179's will look very similar to R160's, they will be very different cars under the hood. Minimizing the number of shops that need to work with them minimizes costs and maximizes reliability.

 

I'm waiting for someone to explain the logic in the R179s going anywhere else.

 

 

There is no question that the net increase in trains, or at least most of it, will be at Coney Island. (There may be a few additional trains added elsewhere due to ridership growth, but most are for SAS.) That doesn't mean that the new cars themselves need to go directly to Coney Island. They can go to 207th St. for the A (sharing a maintenance facility with the C), freeing up some R46's to go Jamaica for the F, freeing up some R160's to go to Coney Island for the restored W.

 

 

Only the R143's and 64 R160's have Canarsie CBTC packages; those are the only cars that will run on the L.

 

Even if the R179's were to displace 36 R46's out of Jamaica (incidentally, where would they go?), there would still be hundreds of R46's left - not helpful for CBTC. By the time QBL CBTC is completed, the R211's will probably have replaced all of Jamaica's R46's. (The only other alternative would be a major swap of Jamaica R46's and Coney Island R160's, but that's messy, and it leaves Coney Island stuck having to maintain a fleet of car that it's never maintained before, but for only a year or two before they're retired.)

 

 

All R143+ cars are CBTC-ready. They don't come with CBTC packages preinstalled - the final CBTC specs haven't been determined yet (Canarsie and Flushing have their own unique CBTC systems that won't be compatible with each other or with the rest of the system).

 

CBTC will eventually go everywhere, but it will take decades - recently resignaled lines, like Concourse, won't need their signals replaced for probably 50+ years.

Actually IIRC, CBTC is already installed on half, if not more of QBL, and the expected completion date is in 2017. Not to mention, the R211's won't be coming until past 2020, and the odds are, this project will be completed by then. 

Also, it will take a hell of a lot longer than a few decades, because remember, SAS isn't getting CBTC.