R179 Discussion Thread

[Orion8]

Those R179s won't be in service for a bit

[Culver]

The 179 order is basically a continuation of the 160s and the 188s are for the most part, the converted 142As. Now I wouldn't be surprised if the 211 order switches over to multi-colored end signs. By the time that order commences, the cost of such technology should be much lower than it was in 1999-2000 or 2004-05 when the 142/143 and 160 orders were made respectively. Personally I wouldn't mind LCD monitors or something similar to mimic the old end signs on the legacy fleet.

By then Sony's "crystal display" (tiny, tiny LEDs that make up an actual high-res display, not the current "LED" TVs which are just LED backlit) should be ready for market, but would probably be too expensive and limited to high-end TVs. Traditional LCD displays probably not the best idea, either. Samsung, however, should have their OLED technology (which they've been making displays with for 5+ years now) developed to a point where the price is decent. OLED also has other qualities that make it ideal for this situation. The displays themselves have no backlight (the display is the display and backlight on its own) and will be able to be printed on tough materials. That's a route the might go towards. Or maybe OLET display tech will be ready by then, who knows. That has basically all the benefits of all the different technologies with none of the downsides, like the new plastic light material that has all the individual benefits of LEDs and CFLs with none of the downsides that each has.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Culver

[Eric B]

Wow; first time I've seen anyone else mention CLED. Did you hear about that from me?

 

Unfortunately, CLED looks like it's becoming "vaporware". Sony hasn't done anything with it since CES 2012, and is instead going with OLED.

So it looks like OLED is the best thing for now. (You're right, LCD wouldn't be as good. There's also plasma displays, which are used as arrival/departure screens in Airtrain terminals and those new Penn Station displays, but those would probably overheat after awhile).

[Eric B]

Just thought to post these two pictures, from the Chanel display in Macy's 34th (on the south side of the ground floor, right near where an old shuttered exit is going to be reopened).

 

 

 

These are are about 1mm RGB's, so I wonder if a FIND could be made with them. They certainly should be good enough for an endsign; perhaps even a full bullet like a rollsign.

[Culver]

Wow; first time I've seen anyone else mention CLED. Did you hear about that from me?

 

Unfortunately, CLED looks like it's becoming "vaporware". Sony hasn't done anything with it since CES 2012, and is instead going with OLED.

So it looks like OLED is the best thing for now. (You're right, LCD wouldn't be as good. There's also plasma displays, which are used as arrival/departure screens in Airtrain terminals and those new Penn Station displays, but those would probably overheat after awhile).

I follow tech sites, and that Sony thing made a big splash. Sucks to see nothing come of it, since it seemed like at least a good tech for sign displays.

[pelhamlocal]

Official delievery dates, and some sh1tty scanned black and white photo prints of a mock up being assembled. Sorry for big pics

[Fan Railer]

^ I feel as though this has been posted already, but thanks for bumping it.

[LTA1992]

It was months ago.

[R32 3838]

Mock up is almost done or just about done

[Union Tpke]

Once the R179s start to get delivered, How long will it take to retire the R32s and R42s?

 

 

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[Obito]

By 2017 starting from mid-2015, so 2-3 years...

[LTA1992]

How long is the delivery schedule for subway cars? 10 cars a week?

[junjun441]

Dont count on it. Theres three main reasons why they made it always red. The most important being visibility. Not for the passenger, who can just simply read the letter/number, but for other train crews. Its more of a quicker response to see a red light and respond by reflex that there is a train in front of you than to figure out another color. This was how this was explained to me by engineers when the 142's were being designed. We as railfans may want the return of colored bullets, but the focus is on operations. Then there's cost. A multicolored LED costs more than a red one. And not too long ago, certain colors on LEDs werent possible. They are now, but at a slightly higher cost. Especially when you take the cost of one single LED, mutiply that by the number of LEDs in each end route sign, then multiplying that by the number of "A" cars ordered. Then its spare bulb factor. 

 

And in all honestly, its only difficult to tell what train it is if you cant read a single letter or number. Then theres the side signs that you can read.......

Also it would cost even more to put small LCD screens on every A car. That would definitely look better and become more possible to show other colors other than red but again red is the best color for visibility.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

They couldn't have just gone with good old-fashion large front roll signs for the A cars? They worked for every subway car from R40 to R68.

[Guest Lance]

They could have, but rollsigns haven't been in favor for a while now.

[engineerboy6561]

Also, CTA went with some sort of RGB LED technology for the head end bullets on their new 5000-series trains; check out http://www.ttmg.org/pages/bombardier/cta-bombardier.html if you'd like to see pictures. Personally, I think it works really well...

[Eric B]

Similar to PATH, except the background is colored too. Should put to rest the excuse that only red is visible for end signs. They have whole text embedded in a lit background (which I could see having glare problems), and what I've been saying we should do is keep the background black, make the letter white, and the circle outline color changing. If these other signs pass, just think how much visible this idea would be.

[engineerboy6561]

Similar to PATH, except the background is colored too. Should put to rest the excuse that only red is visible for end signs. They have whole text embedded in a lit background (which I could see having glare problems), and what I've been saying we should do is keep the background black, make the letter white, and the circle outline color changing. If these other signs pass, just think how much visible this idea would be.

 

That'd be interesting, but I'd prefer having a black background, with both the letter and the circle outline turning the color of the line.

[Princelex]

Dont count on it. Theres three main reasons why they made it always red. The most important being visibility. Not for the passenger, who can just simply read the letter/number, but for other train crews. Its more of a quicker response to see a red light and respond by reflex that there is a train in front of you than to figure out another color. This was how this was explained to me by engineers when the 142's were being designed. We as railfans may want the return of colored bullets, but the focus is on operations. Then there's cost. A multicolored LED costs more than a red one. And not too long ago, certain colors on LEDs werent possible. They are now, but at a slightly higher cost. Especially when you take the cost of one single LED, mutiply that by the number of LEDs in each end route sign, then multiplying that by the number of "A" cars ordered. Then its spare bulb factor. 

 

And in all honestly, its only difficult to tell what train it is if you cant read a single letter or number. Then theres the side signs that you can read.......

I see what you are saying but the whole explanation to me is bullshit.  They are basically saying that workers, specifically Train Operators, are stupid and can't tell a green or yellow light from a red one.  It just insults the intelligence of the worker and that's pathetic but then again, it is the . 

 

And with the cost, as much stuff as the spends money on that's useless and meaningless, the fact that they thought that it wouldn't make sense to fork out a few more dollars to put color coded LED's on these train is disgusting.  We have some really stupid people running things in the and this is more proof of that.  Other cities have color coded LED's on their trains, there's no good explanation as to why we don't have that on our trains.  Pure f****ry at it's finest.  

 

I'm not knocking you at all Far Rock Depot, in fact thank you for sharing this with us, but reading this makes my blood boil.  It's insane.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Princelex

[MHV9218]

I think the only reason that we've seen the single-colored route signs is time. When the NTT trains were originally planned and specced in the late 1990s and (with the 160s) early 2000s, multi-colored signs weren't as common on the market. There is absolutely no reason today why the MTA does not use multi-colored signs. That idea that crews get confused by a color besides red is both ridiculous and totally disproven by the R32s, which have the signs in the exact place in different color (green). It just comes down to what was available upon order, and today, lack of ingenuity/thinking outside the box for the spec of new cars.

[LTA1992]

I personally think the will keep the red bullet for the 179, and save the move to multicolored LED for the 211. Kinda fits with the whole "Next Generation" thing.

[Eric B]

That'd be interesting, but I'd prefer having a black background, with both the letter and the circle outline turning the color of the line.

That's basically the way the R110A sign was (Which is what got me so into LED technology int he first place. Like MHV said, RGB's didn't exist at the time, which is why the 110B stuck with a rollsign)> I think having the letter in white will make it stand out at a distance, so it won't be a blur of a single color. 

I personally think the will keep the red bullet for the 179, and save the move to multicolored LED for the 211. Kinda fits with the whole "Next Generation" thing.

If anything, they should eventually retrofit all the older NTT's with the new signs. Their main benefit wouldn't be as much useful if they ended up on one or two lines, since that is all the 211's will likely fill out since they are replacing the 46's.

[StevenFrancis]

Understanding that red is highly visible, it still defeats the purpose for multicolored trunk lines, its ok with the 7th Avenue line because they are red but other lines which arent red, it would be an issue, ok the workers need to see whatever but it should be common sense to be cautionary on the tracks so if the R179s come with red LEDs, hopefully future models will employ them , but only for workers who should have common sense and a couple of dollars, those are petty reasons, they should be used

[CenSin]

Understanding that red is highly visible, it still defeats the purpose for multicolored trunk lines, its ok with the 7th Avenue line because they are red but other lines which arent red, it would be an issue, ok the workers need to see whatever but it should be common sense to be cautionary on the tracks so if the R179s come with red LEDs, hopefully future models will employ them , but only for workers who should have common sense and a couple of dollars, those are petty reasons, they should be used

Agreed. They could have put the red LEDs elsewhere. They just have to be showing anyhow.

 

And for us passengers, it's difficult to tell what train is coming when the sign is so tiny. From one end of the platform, I would need wait until the train has made its way down two-thirds of the platform before being able to squint and see what train it was. Anyone who needs to make split-second decisions based on the train that's arriving is pretty much screwed.

Edited November 26, 2013 by CenSin

[StevenFrancis]

Also, CTA went with some sort of RGB LED technology for the head end bullets on their new 5000-series trains; check out http://www.ttmg.org/pages/bombardier/cta-bombardier.html if you'd like to see pictures. Personally, I think it works really well...

I remember, first it was amber LEDs until the CTA realized that doesnt specify the line, so they were overhauled.