SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Jemorie]

1 hour ago, Abba said:

It’s actually not so bad . The relays  have greatly improved at stations like Utica Ave  and Church Ave  . Many times a train comes into Utica and it can be out a minute later ! It used to be much worse ! Trains used to line up to almost Franklin waiting to get it at times . The  by Church is not so bad . I do it many sundays . Almost never do we have to wait for  to leave !

You obviously have not ridden the  and southbound in Brooklyn (especially after Franklin) during rush hours.... 

[Abba]

I have .i believe it’s been better. I usually though don’t do it between 5-7 which is the worse time. Sometimes I get off at Kingston and stick around a little to see how the  ,s are doing and lately I’ve noticed they are better . If they do wait it’s usually minimal.

[NewFlyer 230]

Forest Hills-71 Ave can be pretty bad at turning trains as well. There has been times during the rush hours where I’ll see a  or  sitting in the station for a good 2-4 minutes waiting to go to lay up. Of course at that point service is backed up with a train in the tunnel, another at 67th Ave and one in between 67th Ave and 63rd Drive. The worst I’ve ever seen was trains back up as far back as Grand Ave. 

[Abba]

Utica has special relay operators for all trains I believe. Also as soon as a train arrives they have several people checking to make sure no one is on . I’ve noticed major improvements there. Its easier now though cause i usually check subway time or an app to see if there is a bottleneck going into that station ..  if yes I’ll get off at Franklin and take a  but it’s usually good however I don’t usually go between 5 and 7 . So maybe it hasn’t changed but I think it did . Also unrelated the waiting at Nostrand for a  or  to cross rush hour had dramatically improved ! 75 percent of time it’s in and out ! Even rush hour (especially evening ) can be pretty good believe it or not!

Edited September 5, 2019 by Abba

[Lawrence St]

6 hours ago, RR503 said:

Church is pretty terrible, and is a significant source of delay in  service. On the inbound, your average weekday  dwells for around 1:40 and then takes its sweet time moving out of the station thanks to the one shot GT10 restrictions on the ramp to the yard. As if that isn’t enough pain for the poor , s lose an additional 20 seconds to DGTs caused by the ’s yard lineup. (It’s worth noting here that most s at Church are *not* double ended — crews relay their own trains. Unsure of why (there are switchmen assigned), but that fact alone significantly increases terminal congestion).

Outbound, if the tower gives the  a lineup into Church ahead of an , you may be okay, but in the all-too-frequent scenario where crews aren’t in the right place or a dispatcher messes up, you may lose time there too as the  waits to begin its trip. 

As is true in most areas of the system, you could likely make some headway at Church simply through more rigorous operations practices, but with the infrastructure issues that exist at the location (slow leaving speeds, crappy relay area) I honestly think we’re better of with 18. Sure, you’ll still have the potential for crew delays on the northbound side, but one delay node is better than 2. 

Was the relay better at Smith-9th Sts?

[Union Tpke]

5 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Forest Hills-71 Ave can be pretty bad at turning trains as well. There has been times during the rush hours where I’ll see a  or  sitting in the station for a good 2-4 minutes waiting to go to lay up. Of course at that point service is backed up with a train in the tunnel, another at 67th Ave and one in between 67th Ave and 63rd Drive. The worst I’ve ever seen was trains back up as far back as Grand Ave. 

The Forest Hills Conga Line occurs during EVERY rush hour.

[Lawrence St]

5 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Forest Hills-71 Ave can be pretty bad at turning trains as well. There has been times during the rush hours where I’ll see a  or  sitting in the station for a good 2-4 minutes waiting to go to lay up. Of course at that point service is backed up with a train in the tunnel, another at 67th Ave and one in between 67th Ave and 63rd Drive. The worst I’ve ever seen was trains back up as far back as Grand Ave. 

This is why extending the and to 179th St during rush hours and have the and as the Parsons Express can be helpful.

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

This is why extending the and to 179th St during rush hours and have the and as the Parsons Express can be helpful.

That is what’s I was considering for my grand master plan for improving subway service on the B division (and the entire system for that matter). However, the  extension to 179 would not be a great idea, since the entire Queens Blvd section of the  affects reliability. It should be removed from QBL entirely and replaced by other services.

Regarding my grand master plan, I’m calling this the New Program for Action. What makes this different from my last plan for the Nassau-8th Avenue connection (which my plans incorporate) I put up is that I incorporated a few extensions of certain lines to not only provide access to areas not presently served by subway trains, but also increase capacity on those same lines. Some of them would be on RailRoad right of ways, making construction theoretically easy (though I wouldn’t necessarily call them low-cost yet). Bus service would also be integrated into the plan. Modifications are still in the works, and I will post them in the proposals thread, but given the hoopla I encountered there a while ago, that may have to wait a bit.

[NBTA]

When does the F express start? 

[RedLine]

9/16/2019

[RR503]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Was the relay better at Smith-9th Sts?

Nope!

10 hours ago, Abba said:

I have .i believe it’s been better. I usually though don’t do it between 5-7 which is the worse time. Sometimes I get off at Kingston and stick around a little to see how the  ,s are doing and lately I’ve noticed they are better . If they do wait it’s usually minimal.

Yeah, the rush hour time bump from Franklin to Utica is only about 30 seconds now. It should be zero, but baby steps...

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

This is why extending the and to 179th St during rush hours and have the and as the Parsons Express can be helpful.

179 certainly has advantages (2 terminal platforms, straight moves into relay, loads of relay space) but at the end of the day it wouldn't make all that much of a difference if you don't take a hard look at relay operations generally. No world class system dwells trains for 60+ seconds at relay terminals -- start there, and (with some exceptions) let the routing changes follow. 

[Jemorie]

11 hours ago, Abba said:

I have .i believe it’s been better. I usually though don’t do it between 5-7 which is the worse time. Sometimes I get off at Kingston and stick around a little to see how the  ,s are doing and lately I’ve noticed they are better . If they do wait it’s usually minimal.

 

9 hours ago, Abba said:

Utica has special relay operators for all trains I believe. Also as soon as a train arrives they have several people checking to make sure no one is on . I’ve noticed major improvements there. Its easier now though cause i usually check subway time or an app to see if there is a bottleneck going into that station ..  if yes I’ll get off at Franklin and take a  but it’s usually good however I don’t usually go between 5 and 7 . So maybe it hasn’t changed but I think it did . Also unrelated the waiting at Nostrand for a  or  to cross rush hour had dramatically improved ! 75 percent of time it’s in and out ! Even rush hour (especially evening ) can be pretty good believe it or not!

Since this is social media, I’m not just gonna take your word for it. Southbound, the  has to switch twice; first, to the local track and then the Nostrand Avenue Line. Northbound, it has to switch from the Nostrand Avenue Line, to the local track, and then the express track. This easily causes delays to all other trains behind. It also depends on their printed schedules too.

As for as Utica, far too many times I’ve been on  trains that were backed as far as Nostrand Avenue on the express track and ended up missing the  train that passed you by. AM Rush, PM Rush, evenings after 8 p.m. to around 9:30-ish. I learned the hard way to get off the  or  I’m on whenever I see the  coming at the same time across the platform as early as Nevins and sometimes even Franklin as well or if it is only a minute or two at either station. 

The   and  often take a good 12-15 minute tops instead of 6 minutes to get from Atlantic to Franklin southbound while the  and  stop dead multiple times from Atlantic to Franklin. Northbound is okay somewhat, however.

Looking at the printed schedules, the  is every 4 minutes peak and every 8 minutes off-peak. But I hardly see any improvements at Utica nine times out of ten and the relay always has issues handling a train every 4 minutes. Sometimes, there could be two to three  ‘s at the relay scheduled to come out and re-enter service on the lower level at a certain time. You never know.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Jemorie

[Around the Horn]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Was the relay better at Smith-9th Sts?

Far, far worse...

Unlike Church, there's no crew rooms or personnel at Smith-9th so the T/O and C/R were entirely on their own.

[Calvin]

About relays, how does the at Jamaica-179 St: some trains require relay while others don't? 

[NewFlyer 230]

15 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

The Forest Hills Conga Line occurs during EVERY rush hour.

Yeah that’s the sad thing. I never thought it was the ideal terminal because trains should have at least two tracks to pull into and leave from like most other terminal stations have. I know in the past they were able to turn more trains than they currently do but I guess that is hard to do now because of the current infrastructure. 

15 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

This is why extending the and to 179th St during rush hours and have the and as the Parsons Express can be helpful.

You know that will never happen because Jamaica Center cannot turn both the  and . That’s why they have select  trains start and end at 179th street.
I doubt the MTA would ever have the  and  run to 179th street under any normal circumstances because they know at Kew Gardens the locals will be empty while everyone will try to crowd onto the expresses. They actually had  trains run to 179th in the early 90s but that was unpopular due to people bailing the local to the express the first chance they got.  

[NewFlyer 230]

6 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Far, far worse...

Unlike Church, there's no crew rooms or personnel at Smith-9th so the T/O and C/R were entirely on their own.

It still baffles me how the  terminated there for years and it took construction at the station for  trains to be extended back to Church Ave. It makes me wonder if they didn’t need to do that construction would the  still be terminating at Smith/ 9th Street. 

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I doubt the MTA would ever have the  and  run to 179th street under any normal circumstances because they know at Kew Gardens the locals will be empty while everyone will try to crowd onto the expresses. They actually had  trains run to 179th in the early 90s but that was unpopular due to people bailing the local to the express the first chance they got.  

Oh the mentality that the express is always faster than the local (I’m not really buying into it given my experiences with the  and ). When will it ever end?

Also, didn’t the  to 179th pattern benefit 77% of the riders at the time? Why did they not like a roomier  train instead of a packed  train? I honestly feel that crowding from the transferring crowds can (and will) increase the dwell times on the express to the point that the local will win anyway.

[Around the Horn]

4 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Why did they not like a roomier  train instead of a packed  train?

If a train isn't taking me where I'm going, I'm not taking it even if it's less crowded than the one I'm on.

[JeremiahC99]

7 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

If a train isn't taking me where I'm going, I'm not taking it even if it's less crowded than the one I'm on.

That is true. Maybe most people in Jamaica want the faster access 6th Avenue Line instead of the slower access to the Broadway Line.

[RR503]

The only arguments I can fathom for locals to 179 are operational. It's within the realm of possibility that CBTC capacity at 179 would be higher than 71 by a margin large enough to justify extension thanks to faster leaving speeds and greater track flexibility.

[JeremiahC99]

4 minutes ago, RR503 said:

The only arguments I can fathom for locals to 179 are operational. It's within the realm of possibility that CBTC capacity at 179 would be higher than 71 by a margin large enough to justify extension thanks to faster leaving speeds and greater track flexibility.

So we can have Jamaica-179th Street operate with 40 trains per hour with CBTC instead of the current operation.

Also, maybe this idea can be revisited in tandem with an extension of the Hillside Avenue Subway to Queens Village (assuming that happens). My grand master plan does incorporate that.

[RR503]

5 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

So we can have Jamaica-179th Street operate with 40 trains per hour with CBTC instead of the current operation.

Also, maybe this idea can be revisited in tandem with an extension of the Hillside Avenue Subway to Queens Village (assuming that happens). My grand master plan does incorporate that.

I have no idea what the theoretical capacity of 179 and 71 would be — there are so many data points you’d need to figure that out, and at any rate dealing with overlong dwells at 71 could get you a bump pretty quickly. 

Dunno if we need to go all the way to Queens Village, but a Hillside extension is certainly warranted. Having all of E Queens schlep to Jamaica for the subway is bad for riders and the agency’s operating budget. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by RR503

[S78 via Hylan]

2 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

It still baffles me how the  terminated there for years and it took construction at the station for  trains to be extended back to Church Ave. It makes me wonder if they didn’t need to do that construction would the  still be terminating at Smith/ 9th Street. 

They were originally going to cut the  back to Smith-9 Sts once the Culver Viaduct rehab was complete but, it stayed at Church Av due to a lot of push and advocation from Park Slope residents. 

Plus, the structure needed repairs, so not doing it wasn’t an option.

Edited September 6, 2019 by S78 via Hylan

[NewFlyer 230]

2 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Oh the mentality that the express is always faster than the local (I’m not really buying into it given my experiences with the  and ). When will it ever end?

Also, didn’t the  to 179th pattern benefit 77% of the riders at the time? Why did they not like a roomier  train instead of a packed  train? I honestly feel that crowding from the transferring crowds can (and will) increase the dwell times on the express to the point that the local will win anyway.

What makes the  and  different is that the  tends to be more unreliable than the  and  are. Therefore it makes sense that people are not hopping off the  in droves for the  unless it is right there or about to come. There has been several times where I’ve boarded the  at Broadway Junction and rode all the way into Manhattan and was not passed by an  .

During rush hour the combined frequency of the  and  is like every 2-3 minutes so these express trains are definitely showing up in more frequent intervals than the locals themselves. Therefore a lot of people just don’t want to stay on a local train even if it means that they are guaranteed a seat and will spend 5 to 10 more minutes on the train. Roosevelt Ave in the morning is packed and a local train entering the station in the morning will dump loads of people onto the platform. So if you had the local trains go to 179th Street, can you imagine how the platform at Kew Gardens will be.

[Lawrence St]

6 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Yeah that’s the sad thing. I never thought it was the ideal terminal because trains should have at least two tracks to pull into and leave from like most other terminal stations have. I know in the past they were able to turn more trains than they currently do but I guess that is hard to do now because of the current infrastructure. 

You know that will never happen because Jamaica Center cannot turn both the  and . That’s why they have select  trains start and end at 179th street.
I doubt the MTA would ever have the  and  run to 179th street under any normal circumstances because they know at Kew Gardens the locals will be empty while everyone will try to crowd onto the expresses. They actually had  trains run to 179th in the early 90s but that was unpopular due to people bailing the local to the express the first chance they got.  

I was talking about 179th...