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Can SAS Phase 1 do the job?


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It will be interesting to see how the Second Avenue Subway will work when Phase 1 is completed. The function of a Second Avenue subway line would be to reduce overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue line by providing riders on the East Side with an alternate trip into Midtown and Lower Manhattan. Phase 1 can certainly help out the situation in the Upper East Side by gaining riders at 96th and 86th Street but I don't see it making much of an impact. Each of the 3 Lexington Avenue routes gets high ridership in the outer boroughs so most trains enter Manhattan at SRO status. Also, the stops with the highest ridership on that line would suffer little effect from the Second Avenue Subway. Lots of people go to work, hang out or transfer to other lines at stops like 59th Street, Grand Central-42nd Street and 14th Street-Union Square. That ridership is the main source of crowding on the (4), (5) and (6) lines and will not leave the Lex unless the SAS is extended further north or south. I could see the Lexington Avenue line easily beating out the other Manhattan trunks in terms of ridership even with SAS Phase 1. Let's answer the question together NYCTF. Will SAS Phase 1 reduce overcrowding on the (4), (5) and (6) lines?

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They should have never torn down the Third Avenue Elevated in the first place.

3rd Avenue El. had to go anyway. It was obsolete by 1950's and required a huge overhaul. Now what they did not do, is that they didn't build subway replacing it, as soon as El was gone, as planned.

 

To stay on topic though, real significant relieve on Lexington would happen if SAS would reach Bronx and go there as deep as possible (200+ sts). Won't happen.

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Phase 1 could do a solid job taking some crowds from the Lex Av line since it goes to the West Side and directly transfers to the (F) for those heading to Queens.

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It could be possible to extend the (Q) to the Bronx if you elevate the line in the Bronx to speed up the pace of construction, but potential NIMBYISM might prevent that from happening.

 

No No Just No...

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Actually, I would disagree. Without the Second Avenue Subway, it was a mistake to close the Third Avenue El between Chatham Square and East 149th Street on May 12, 1955 though in the end, train service was weekday only 7:00am to 7:00pm.

 

Though the Third Avenue El was definately aging, I feel it was a bigger mistake to close it betwen East 149th Street and Gun Hill Road on April 30, 1973. In the end, the el structure was handling R12s.

 

I would agree that Phase II, at least, would be needed to help ease the Lexington Avenue subway. Phase I should help in that, to an extent, the (Q) should attract riders between East End Avenue and Second Avenue at 96th, 86th and 72d Streets; however, an honest, more accurate showing likely won't be available until Phase III opens - since, then, (T) service would serve Second Avenue between 125th and Houston Streets.

3rd Avenue El. had to go anyway. It was obsolete by 1950's and required a huge overhaul. Now what they did not do, is that they didn't build subway replacing it, as soon as El was gone, as planned.

 

To stay on topic though, real significant relieve on Lexington would happen if SAS would reach Bronx and go there as deep as possible (200+ sts). Won't happen.

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The long construction time, and the wait time for the Second Avenue Subway to be built is so long that many people over time calls it "The Subway Line That Never Was". Hopefully this proposal would be completed from 125th Street-Hanover Square.

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I think it will help overcrowding, but only marginally. The problem is not circulation in Manhattan so much as people going into Manhattan and staying there.

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For the record, I think an elevated extension along 3rd Avenue in the Bronx is a brilliant idea.

 

As for Brooklyn, why not use existing infrastructure? Send it down the Fulton Line or sumpthin.

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While I feel there's no point for this thread because the service doesn't exist yet, I will agree that should it go into Brooklyn. A line via Fulton IND would be ideal and that it should run down Utica Av to give that area of Brooklyn another option other than just the B46.

 

It's either that or the extend the IRT from it's current stop down Flatbush av to KP.

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When only Phase 1 is complete how about bringing back a (V) service but keeping the (M) on 6th Avenue. But this would mean no (T) until stage two. Anyway the (T) would only stop at 3 stops.

 

(V) Stops;

- Second Ave-Houston St F

- B'way-Lafayette B,D,F,M

- West Fourth A,C,E,B,D,F,M

- 14th Street F,M,L

- 23rd St F,M

- 34th St-Herald Square B,D,F,M,N,R,Q, and maybe W

- 42nd St-Bryant Park B,D,F,M,7

- 47-50th Sts/Rock Center B,D,F,M

- 57th St F,Q

- Lexington Ave-63rd St

- 72nd St Q

- 86th St Q

- 96th St Q

_______________________

Anyone approve my ideas?

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Guest lance25

Both lines can't co-exist on Sixth Avenue. There isn't enough room. Plus, it would be better to give riders a line that actually goes somewhere, rather than be a feeder line to the rest of the system.

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I think a better cost saving idea would be to sent the (T) over to the Culver Line north of Houston Street. You can have tunnel portals built for a future extension to Hanover Square, and onwards to the IND Fulton Street Line. I think a future (U) train (Not in our lifetimes) should use the 63rd Street Tunnel and run from LaGuardia Airport using 21st Street and the Grand Central Parkway all the way to Hanover Square.

 

Potentially (In the far future) the (U) would be extended with the (E) down Greenwich Street to a new tunnel under the East River to Brooklyn. It would run down Atlantic Avenue, and turn northwards at 3rd Avenue, and turn again at Lafayette Avenue. From here the (E), and the (U) will join the (A), and the (C) on the Fulton Street Line. The (U) will be connected to the Fulton Street Line's express tracks, and it will run express at all times with the (A). The (C), and the (E) will run local. The (C), and the (U) will go to Ozone Park-Lefferts Boulevard while the (A), and the (E) will run at all times to the Rockaways. The (A) will go to Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue while the (E) will go to the Rockaway Park Beach-116th Street. This would create express and local service for the IND Fulton Street Line pleasing all residents that live in the Rockaway area, and the Ozone Park area.

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When only Phase 1 is complete how about bringing back a (V) service but keeping the (M) on 6th Avenue. But this would mean no (T) until stage two. Anyway the (T) would only stop at 3 stops.

 

(V) Stops;

- Second Ave-Houston St F

- B'way-Lafayette B,D,F,M

- West Fourth A,C,E,B,D,F,M

- 14th Street F,M,L

- 23rd St F,M

- 34th St-Herald Square B,D,F,M,N,R,Q, and maybe W

- 42nd St-Bryant Park B,D,F,M,7

- 47-50th Sts/Rock Center B,D,F,M

- 57th St F,Q

- Lexington Ave-63rd St

- 72nd St Q

- 86th St Q

- 96th St Q

_______________________

Anyone approve my ideas?

 

The Lexington Avenue/63rd Street connection to the (F) makes that plan moot, though I'll give points for outside of the box thinking.

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I don't see any need for the return of the (V) anyway. The (M) does a fine job, and people want to see the (V) for only nostalgic reasons. For the (W) or something similar to the (W) I see some understanding for as it would help people in South Brooklyn when it's extended to Brooklyn during rush hours, how it would help the (N) run express, and how it would serve Astoria, but there is no need for the (V).

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That is the criticism. Many people believe this subway line won't help much people, because it doesn't go out to the outer boroughs like the past proposals.

 

I think the opposite, and I think others do as well. The majority, or at least a large share, of Lex rides are intra-Manhattan (think about how many people commute from Grand Central to somewhere else on the island). The SAS won't do much to alleviate that congestion unless it extends vastly down Manhattan, at least to 14th Street, or preferably Grand for a cross-platform transfer to the (;) and (D). However, I'd argue that it needs to switch to 1st Avenue at 14th for better (L) connections and to serve the eastern East Village and Alphabet City better and then back to Chrystie for Grand.

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