LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread

[QM1to6Ave]

I'm not super familiar with LIRR/MNRR signal operations, other than what I've read about PTC and centralizing the LIRR towers. Is there a plan for a version of CBTC for the railroads? The upgrades I've read about for LIRR sound similar to ATC, with more centralized dispatching, but not CBTC

[danielhg121]

2 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I'm not super familiar with LIRR/MNRR signal operations, other than what I've read about PTC and centralizing the LIRR towers. Is there a plan for a version of CBTC for the railroads? The upgrades I've read about for LIRR sound similar to ATC, with more centralized dispatching, but not CBTC

Well, I can really only speak about Metro-North's signal system which to be frank, I'm quite new at myself so I'll probably get some things wrong. The way it works for Metro-North is we only have signals located at interlockings which is more or less where switches or movable bridges are and these can be directly controlled by the Rail Traffic Controller to display a stop signal, the rest of it is located in the transponders on the roadbed so locomotive engineers mainly read their cab signal (other than also knowing the track speeds ourselves as it's part of the physical characteristics that we're tested on) which shows either an indication or speed that the track is good for. These signals also can only display proceed (we're governed by the cab signal speed) or a Stop Signal (effectively we're a stop-and-go railroad). Metro-North already has its train dispatching centralized in Grand Central whereas the LIRR does not. LIRR has to share territory with Amtrak as they own the tracks from Harold Interlocking into Penn Station. I'm sure you have some understanding of what a block is which is these lengths of track between trains and they can move depending on the distance you encroach up to another train. So if I'm catching up to my leader, the cab signals will get more and more restrictive until I'm literally behind the train. I believe the LIRR also utilizes cab signals but they use more wayside signaling so they have signals not only at interlockings but straight track that will let you know what's coming up whereas we will just crash into the block (it's a way to just keep the trains moving albeit slowing them down) and our cab signal will drop and thus we'll have to get our train down to speed so that it won't initiate a penalty brake. Now if there is roadwork going on, we usually know about it from the paperwork we're supposed to pick up from our bulletins. For the most part, they'll also incorporate the speed restrictions into the PTC system but they may forget and it'll be entirely the engineer & conductors fault if they're caught speeding into a work zone. I believe CBTC is really better suited for high-frequency, close distance train operations because they have transponders literally everywhere so they can run trains really really close. PTC for the most part works quite well for Metro-North and I guess you can even say it's our version of CBTC as it has a moving-block system. ATC is more of a failsafe system that's incorporated into PTC where if the engineer fails to reduce the speed to the defined limit, there will be a penalty brake application. 

I know this seems very jumbled as I've just word rambled but I'll try to clarify some points. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by danielhg121

[QM1to6Ave]

15 minutes ago, danielhg121 said:

Well, I can really only speak about Metro-North's signal system which to be frank, I'm quite new at myself so I'll probably get some things wrong. The way it works for Metro-North is we only have signals located at interlockings which is more or less where switches or movable bridges are and these can be directly controlled by the Rail Traffic Controller to display a stop signal, the rest of it is located in the transponders on the roadbed so locomotive engineers mainly read their cab signal (other than also knowing the track speeds ourselves as it's part of the physical characteristics that we're tested on) which shows either an indication or speed that the track is good for. These signals also can only display proceed (we're governed by the cab signal speed) or a Stop Signal (effectively we're a stop-and-go railroad). Metro-North already has its train dispatching centralized in Grand Central whereas the LIRR does not. LIRR has to share territory with Amtrak as they own the tracks from Harold Interlocking into Penn Station. I'm sure you have some understanding of what a block is which is these lengths of track between trains and they can move depending on the distance you encroach up to another train. So if I'm catching up to my leader, the cab signals will get more and more restrictive until I'm literally behind the train. I believe the LIRR also utilizes cab signals but they use more wayside signaling so they have signals not only at interlockings but straight track that will let you know what's coming up whereas we will just crash into the block (it's a way to just keep the trains moving albeit slowing them down) and our cab signal will drop and thus we'll have to get our train down to speed so that it won't initiate a penalty brake. Now if there is roadwork going on, we usually know about it from the paperwork we're supposed to pick up from our bulletins. For the most part, they'll also incorporate the speed restrictions into the PTC system but they may forget and it'll be entirely the engineer & conductors fault if they're caught speeding into a work zone. I believe CBTC is really better suited for high-frequency, close distance train operations because they have transponders literally everywhere so they can run trains really really close. PTC for the most part works quite well for Metro-North and I guess you can even say it's our version of CBTC as it has a moving-block system. ATC is more of a failsafe system that's incorporated into PTC where if the engineer fails to reduce the speed to the defined limit, there will be a penalty brake application. 

I know this seems very jumbled as I've just word rambled but I'll try to clarify some points. 

Thanks! Very informative!

[xD4nn]

3 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I'm not super familiar with LIRR/MNRR signal operations, other than what I've read about PTC and centralizing the LIRR towers. Is there a plan for a version of CBTC for the railroads? The upgrades I've read about for LIRR sound similar to ATC, with more centralized dispatching, but not CBTC

CBTC is a form of PTC. LIRR uses its own form of ACSES and ATC.

[QM1to6Ave]

6 hours ago, xD4nn said:

CBTC is a form of PTC. LIRR uses its own form of ACSES and ATC.

I thought PTC only stops/slows down trains, not speed them up or control other aspects of their movement?

[trainfan22]

Surprised nobody posted about the mud slide disrupting Metro North Hudson Line service, its split between Tarrytown and GCT and Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie.

[QM1to6Ave]

13 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Surprised nobody posted about the mud slide disrupting Metro North Hudson Line service, its split between Tarrytown and GCT and Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie.

Oh wow, I only saw that Amtrak was disrupted by it

[Lawrence St]

14 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Surprised nobody posted about the mud slide disrupting Metro North Hudson Line service, its split between Tarrytown and GCT and Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie.

Yup we’re working around the clock to get it back. I’ve never seen anything like it.

[biGC323232]

On 10/21/2023 at 11:13 PM, trainfan22 said:

Surprised nobody posted about the mud slide disrupting Metro North Hudson Line service, its split between Tarrytown and GCT and Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie.

Thank God a train (Amtrak/Metro North) wasnt passing by at that time....

[danielhg121]

The last of the MNR Fortieth Anniversary wraps will be New York Central themed, Penn Central themed and a unique employee tribute wrap.

[46Dover]

On 10/21/2023 at 11:13 PM, trainfan22 said:

Surprised nobody posted about the mud slide disrupting Metro North Hudson Line service, its split between Tarrytown and GCT and Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie.

Massive L for the Hudson Line🤦‍♂️

[Calvin]

https://patch.com/new-york/longisland/s/isxrt/new-lirr-timetables-includes-additional-trains-atlantic-terminal?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_term=traffic+%26+transit&utm_campaign=autopost&utm_content=long-island&fbclid=IwAR39g8U5zl-ciseCJqHNGsFCVkVsRpeIBkdk0zvDfNTJJAKTvtZAziRUfTU

Two more trains will be added on the Atlantic Terminal branch starting November 13th. Also, Port Washington will have more express trains during the morning rush hour. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Calvin

[Lawrence St]

What is going on near Elmont/UBS Arena that there's always planned work?

[127Ridgefield]

If this has be answered before and I’m late to the party I am sorry! I’m curious on I know the LIRR has stop markers for how many cars you have but I’ve never seen any on Metro North so how do they go about it the Locomotive Engineers🧐

[danielhg121]

4 hours ago, 127Ridgefield said:

If this has be answered before and I’m late to the party I am sorry! I’m curious on I know the LIRR has stop markers for how many cars you have but I’ve never seen any on Metro North so how do they go about it the Locomotive Engineers🧐

There are stop markers if you're looking closely enough. There aren't for every station or platform but if you notice there are white numbers on a blue background usually hung around an advertisement board on the Harlem line. There are smaller ones that face the engineer as well that are a tiny white square with black lettering or they also say E + [however many cars are in the consist] usually on the Hudson and New Haven lines. 

[127Ridgefield]

12 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

There are stop markers if you're looking closely enough. There aren't for every station or platform but if you notice there are white numbers on a blue background usually hung around an advertisement board on the Harlem line. There are smaller ones that face the engineer as well that are a tiny white square with black lettering or they also say E + [however many cars are in the consist] usually on the Hudson and New Haven lines. 

Oh okay!!! Next time I’m on Metro North I’ll look out for them! I grew up watching and riding the LIRR so I’m familiar how they set up there markers lol 

[danielhg121]

Is there an issue with the LIRR C3 cab cars lately? There are 2 double-ended DM's trains out right now and a couple days back they ran a DE-DM mix with 4-5 cars. I'd imagine they'd like to avoid putting more mileage on the engines than necessary but for the needs of service, I guess they really no have no choice.

[trainfan22]

Metro North added service to the Hudson Line this weekend due to "leaf peeping" (Yes, they used the words leaf peeping).

 

 

I read elseware that those diesel train Hudson line runs are crushloaded with crowds on weekends due to ppl wanting to view the fall foliage.

Edited November 5, 2023 by trainfan22

[danielhg121]

20 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

Metro North added service to the Hudson Line this weekend due to "leaf peeping" (Yes, they used the words leaf peeping).

 

 

I read elseware that those diesel train Hudson line runs are crushloaded with crowds on weekends due to ppl wanting to view the fall foliage.

The leaf peepers have been in effect since October. The regular runs have been seeing a lot more people as well. Conductors have been saying they can't really collect tickets on some of the cars because there's no place to get through and people are crowding in the vestibule area. 

[danielhg121]

MNR P32 Genesis #211 sporting a new scheme. 👀 

Good luck hunting!

Edited November 8, 2023 by danielhg121

[QM1to6Ave]

On 11/5/2023 at 5:43 PM, danielhg121 said:

The leaf peepers have been in effect since October. The regular runs have been seeing a lot more people as well. Conductors have been saying they can't really collect tickets on some of the cars because there's no place to get through and people are crowding in the vestibule area. 

It's amazing how this problem goes on and on for years across special events, rush hour trains, etc, but they never try to make any real changes to collect the revenue. MNRR and LIRR seem to be equally guilty of not caring enough to try and collect.

[danielhg121]

8 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

It's amazing how this problem goes on and on for years across special events, rush hour trains, etc, but they never try to make any real changes to collect the revenue. MNRR and LIRR seem to be equally guilty of not caring enough to try and collect.

From what I recall, I think LIRR has always stationed extra conductors at station platforms for special events/concerts at Forest Hills Stadium, Mets-Willets and now UBS Arena. As to how effective those are, not sure considering it’s probably a stampede to get to the platform or exit the station. Not sure if MNR does the same for Yankees games. As for providing extra service to meet the demand, it might just break even calling another crew to work, fuel costs, etc. 

[QM1to6Ave]

2 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

From what I recall, I think LIRR has always stationed extra conductors at station platforms for special events/concerts at Forest Hills Stadium, Mets-Willets and now UBS Arena. As to how effective those are, not sure considering it’s probably a stampede to get to the platform or exit the station. Not sure if MNR does the same for Yankees games. As for providing extra service to meet the demand, it might just break even calling another crew to work, fuel costs, etc. 

Yeah, they really need to move to a tap in/tap out system so that a lot more fares get captured.

For extra service, I always figured these big companies paying for these large events should be charged some extra fees to cover the extra load on public transit and offset the cost of extra services.

[N6 Limited]

7 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

From what I recall, I think LIRR has always stationed extra conductors at station platforms for special events/concerts at Forest Hills Stadium, Mets-Willets and now UBS Arena. As to how effective those are, not sure considering it’s probably a stampede to get to the platform or exit the station. Not sure if MNR does the same for Yankees games. As for providing extra service to meet the demand, it might just break even calling another crew to work, fuel costs, etc. 

For Belmont Stakes, they had conductors punching tickets as people exited or returned to the Belmont Park Station.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

On 11/8/2023 at 2:53 PM, danielhg121 said:

From what I recall, I think LIRR has always stationed extra conductors at station platforms for special events/concerts at Forest Hills Stadium, Mets-Willets and now UBS Arena. As to how effective those are, not sure considering it’s probably a stampede to get to the platform or exit the station. Not sure if MNR does the same for Yankees games. As for providing extra service to meet the demand, it might just break even calling another crew to work, fuel costs, etc. 

For the weekend UBS Arena specials whenever there's trackwork, they typically don't check tickets at all on trains. So anyone taking those trains could basically get a free ride. Also, given that they tend to check your ticket once you cross over to the eastbound platform at Elmont, if you just exit from the westbound platform to the north you also basically get a free ride.