Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[RollOver]

A bible full of formatting errors, typos, and horribly outdated information, as well as a less-than amazing user interface.

 

Yes, I suppose you're more or less correct...  That's why I said Wikipedia follows, not leads. When I myself used to edit there, both Union Tpke and I tend to make sure/discuss with the mods/admins of that site that every info should be up to/are up to date on that site.

Edited October 14, 2015 by RollOver

[R3238 RFW]

Wikipedia is a reliable cite IMO I get all of my information ( not regarding to the NYC Subway) from there Wikipedia is just not up to date sometimes.

Edited October 14, 2015 by R3238 RFW

[RollOver]

Wikipedia is a reliable cite IMO I get all of my information ( not regarding to the NYC Subway) from there Wikipedia is just not up to date sometimes.

 

It just depends if any user on Wikipedia has a spare time to edit or not. Happens with every other site, even nycsubway.org.

Edited October 14, 2015 by RollOver

[Javier]

Not just that, there's a nosey guy that reverts everything you do even tho you have a reliable source.

[Sparen of Iria]

Yes, I suppose you're more or less correct...  That's why I said Wikipedia follows, not leads. When I myself used to edit there, both Union Tpke and I tend to make sure/discuss with the mods/admins of that site that every info should be up to/are up to date on that site.

...Except that I was referring to the MTA's website, not Wikipedia...

[RollOver]

...Except that I was referring to the MTA's website, not Wikipedia...

Wait a sec, I really don't understand.

[Union Tpke]

The Staten Island Railway wikipedia page has achieved good article status as a result of my editing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staten_Island_Railway

[GojiMet86]

Think you can edit or create pages for the Harlem River and Port Chester/NYW&B stations?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_River_and_Port_Chester_Railroad

 

Almost all its stations don't have pages. Morris Park Racetrack station isn't even listed. It was a stub terminal within the Van Nest Yard, next to Van Nest station that served the Morris Racetrack.

 

http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e2-58e1-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

 

The Digital Collection at the NYPL has a bunch of these maps.

[j4lambert]

This is an article from about 2 months ago:

Source: The MTA Wants to Deny the Bronx a New Subway | Suite101.com

 

I was under the impression that a station at 125 Street and 2 Avenue wasn't possible due to the water or impediment to future extension to the Bronx.

 

Any comments?

For the second phase of the Second Avenue Subway, a flying junction should be built north of 116th Street station. The junction would allow trains to continue to either 125th Street station or a new line to the Bronx. The extension (to be built later) would cross under the Harlem River and run under Alexander Avenue to the 3rd Avenue-138th Street station. The line would then run under Third Avenue to replace the Third Avenue Elevated line. Stations on the Third Avenue portion of the line would be located at 3rd Avenue-138th Street, 3rd Avenue-149th Street, 163rd Street, and 169th Street/Bronx-Lebanon Hospital Center (under Franklin Avenue). After the 169th Street station, the line would run under Boston Road to 174-175th Streets station, with an intermediate station at Prospect Avenue. After 174th-175th Streets station, the line would run under Southern Boulevard to the line's terminus at East 183rd Street-Bronx Zoo (an intermediate station would be built at 180th Street-Crotona Parkway).

[bobtehpanda]

For the second phase of the Second Avenue Subway, a flying junction should be built north of 116th Street station. The junction would allow trains to continue to either 125th Street station or a new line to the Bronx. The extension (to be built later) would cross under the Harlem River and run under Alexander Avenue to the 3rd Avenue-138th Street station. The line would then run under Third Avenue to replace the Third Avenue Elevated line. Stations on the Third Avenue portion of the line would be located at 3rd Avenue-138th Street, 3rd Avenue-149th Street, 163rd Street, and 169th Street/Bronx-Lebanon Hospital Center (under Franklin Avenue). After the 169th Street station, the line would run under Boston Road to 174-175th Streets station, with an intermediate station at Prospect Avenue. After 174th-175th Streets station, the line would run under Southern Boulevard to the line's terminus at East 183rd Street-Bronx Zoo (an intermediate station would be built at 180th Street-Crotona Parkway).

 

There are planned tail tracks going up to 129 St for a future 129 St Yard for Second Av trains. This is presumably also where a Bronx extension would come from.

[j4lambert]

There are planned tail tracks going up to 129 St for a future 129 St Yard for Second Av trains. This is presumably also where a Bronx extension would come from.

Under the service plan following the extension, T trains would run to the Bronx.

[trainfanrod]

129th and 2nd ave ?? Cuz idk how that would work if it curves to lex

129th and 2nd ave ?? Cuz idk how that would work if it curves to lex

[Mysterious2train]

129th and 2nd ave ?? Cuz idk how that would work if it curves to lex

129th and 2nd ave ?? Cuz idk how that would work if it curves to lex

 

The tail tracks, if built, would split off from the mainline tracks at a flying junction around 2 Av and 121 St. The mainline tracks would curve onto 125 St while the tail tracks would continue up 2 Av to 129 St. Although that's only if the MTA decides to actually build these tail tracks. If they decide they don't need that particular storage space, they'll just leave bellmouths around 121 St instead. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by Mysterious2train

[trainfanrod]

And then a station up there????

[bobtehpanda]

The tail tracks, if built, would split off from the mainline tracks at a flying junction around 2 Av and 121 St. The mainline tracks would curve onto 125 St while the tail tracks would continue up 2 Av to 129 St. Although that's only if the MTA decides to actually build these tail tracks. If they decide they don't need that particular storage space, they'll just leave bellmouths around 121 St instead. 

 

 

And then a station up there????

 

The tail tracks will probably be built, because they're supposed to lead to a 129 St Yard. Phases I and II will most likely be fine for SAS, but as yards get filled due to increasing service levels as CBTC becomes more widespread, the MTA has planned yard locations at 129 St and at Sunnyside Yards, via a tunnel that is included in the scope for East Side Access.

[Mysterious2train]

The tail tracks will probably be built, because they're supposed to lead to a 129 St Yard. Phases I and II will most likely be fine for SAS, but as yards get filled due to increasing service levels as CBTC becomes more widespread, the MTA has planned yard locations at 129 St and at Sunnyside Yards, via a tunnel that is included in the scope for East Side Access.

 

I know the draft EIS for the project mentioned a big storage yard in the 120s, but the final EIS seems to have dropped that in favor of the 2 tail tracks only (and even those may not get built)

 

 

 

In addition, the number of locations where a third track would be necessary has been reduced in order to avoid tunneling beneath buildings to the degree possible. Locations previously identified as having more than two tracks that have now been eliminated from such consideration include:

 

• Second Avenue between 129th and 120th Streets....

 

 

• 129th Street Storage Tracks. While a new underground storage yard is still under consideration beneath Second Avenue north of 125th Street to 129th Street, current plans call for it to be narrowed significantly, so that it would remain entirely beneath Second Avenue. Importantly, with this refinement, Crack is Wack Playground would no longer be directly affected by construction activities, and impacts to traffic and private properties north of 125th Street would also be reduced by the reduction in the amount of cut-and-cover construction. This option would provide for the storage of four trains on two tracks, instead of the nine tracks initially proposed in the SDEIS. It is possible that this yard would not be required at all if the other options described in this section are selected.

 

 

 

 

Both the northern and southern portions of the alignment would be designed so as not to preclude future connections to the Bronx and Brooklyn. In the north, a bellmouth would be constructed along Second Avenue at approximately 121st Street as part of the curve from Second Avenue to 125th Street. (This bellmouth, which has shifted four blocks south from the location identified in the SDEIS to minimize property impacts in this vicinity, would not be needed if the 129th Street Storage tracks were to be constructed, since the storage tracks themselves would function as a portion of the extension to the Bronx.)...

 

From the final EIS, chapter 2, pages 8, 12 and 14 respectively

 

I hope the tail tracks get built, but given how the MTA is bending over backwards to try and decrease construction work and decrease impacts on the community, I could see them deciding not to. Also, is a Sunnyside Yard for the subway really going to be a thing? I read about ideas for it but haven't heard anything concrete about it. (Although admittely, I haven't been following ESA as much as SAS). 

Edited October 24, 2015 by Mysterious2train

[bobtehpanda]

I know the draft EIS for the project mentioned a big storage yard in the 120s, but the final EIS seems to have dropped that in favor of the 2 tail tracks only (and even those may not get built)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From the final EIS, chapter 2, pages 8, 12 and 14 respectively

 

I hope the tail tracks get built, but given how the MTA is bending over backwards to try and decrease construction work and decrease impacts on the community, I could see them deciding not to. Also, is a Sunnyside Yard for the subway really going to be a thing? I read about ideas for it but haven't heard anything concrete about it. (Although admittely, I haven't been following ESA as much as SAS). 

 

The mention of the Sunnyside Yard link is in the EIS for East Side Access, on page 2-20.

 

I really don't see them jettisoning the tail tracks; last time the MTA built a massive extension they weren't able to finish, they were still able to complete turnouts for future things, like the 63 St bellmouths and the Archer Avenue bellmouths, even though none of those things were likely to be finished any time soon after the projects were cut back.

[Mysterious2train]

Speaking of never finishing...

 

The MTA released their revised 2015-2019 Capital Program and it's disappointing on this front. The original proposal included $1.535 billion to start Phase 2, but the revision only includes $535 million ($1 billion less). The tunneling contract is gone and I guess it's been postponed until the next Capital Program. The last 3 programs provided around $1.5 billion in funds for Phase 1 so this is a big hit. 

 

Here is what the document says about it:

 

The proposed 2015-2019 Capital Program provides $535 million to commence SAS Phase 2. This is a reduction of $1.0 billion compared to the previous 2015-2019 capital plan proposal that was submitted in September 2014, reflecting funding availability and the ability to implement scope within the plan period. Included are environmental, design, and real estate and project support to undertake preliminary construction work, such as utility relocation. The balance of the work necessary for operation will be funded in future capital programs.

 

If you want to see what changed: 

Edited October 28, 2015 by Mysterious2train

[Union Tpke]

Speaking of never finishing...

 

The MTA released their revised 2015-2019 Capital Program and it's disappointing on this front. The original proposal included $1.535 billion to start Phase 2, but the revision only includes $535 million ($1 billion less). The tunneling contract is gone and I guess it's been postponed until the next Capital Program. The last 3 programs provided around $1.5 billion in funds for Phase 1 so this is a big hit. 

 

Here is what the document says about it:

 

 

 

If you want to see what changed: 

OUCH!

[Art Vandelay]

Considering how long it took put to bid the SAS Phase 1 contracts, I think this new schedule may be more in the line of reality, regardless of the budget reasons behind it. 

[LexAveExp5]

With all the talk of East Side Access in the news this week, I was thinking maybe they should just do phase 3 first. On In Transit this week the guy said a lot of people are going to be jumping on the Lex line from the LIRR at Grand Central. But if phase 3 isn't built yet, the Lex is still going to be over capacity. That might be a big problem

[bobtehpanda]

With all the talk of East Side Access in the news this week, I was thinking maybe they should just do phase 3 first. On In Transit this week the guy said a lot of people are going to be jumping on the Lex line from the LIRR at Grand Central. But if phase 3 isn't built yet, the Lex is still going to be over capacity. That might be a big problem

 

Phase III will only take you down to Houston St, though. It would relieve some, but the main relieving force would be both Phases III and IV, since Phase IV would take you all the way down to the Financial District and Water St.

 

The odds are that Phase II will finish before East Side Access, since ESA was last projected to finish in 2023 (and even that is debatable)

Edited November 8, 2015 by bobtehpanda

[Sparen of Iria]

Phase 4, however, is the *ugly* phase, because you're tunneling under Lower Manhattan, with its non-uniform street grid, buried historical objects, and whatever other problems there are.

[Around the Horn]

I think that's an interesting idea we should look in to... (Phase 3 first)

I'd be willing to do that...

[Sparen of Iria]

I have a feeling that building Phase 3 first will prevent DeKalb from exploding when the goes to what, 19 TPH. However, it would be an inconvenience to those in East Harlem, especially since it shouldn't actually be that hard to get it to 116th St.