New Jersey Transit - Random Thoughts Thread

[553 Bridgeton]

17 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

This is state wide correct?

Yes

9 hours ago, jass said:

So why not put a sign?

 

This is the stop, the closest one to the Shoprite.

https://goo.gl/maps/XVYhcgxyk5uXCPZY9

It’s up to the town, they are the ones who control where the signs and courtesy stops go. 
 

Some lines serve towns by accident because it has to use the road to get through the route. In towns where there are no stop signs, it’s because it’s served by accident; so the local town government will make a certain location a courtesy stop if there are a few people in that town that is served by accident. 

[jass]

11 hours ago, 553 Bridgeton said:

Yes

It’s up to the town, they are the ones who control where the signs and courtesy stops go. 
Some lines serve towns by accident because it has to use the road to get through the route. In towns where there are no stop signs, it’s because it’s served by accident; so the local town government will make a certain location a courtesy stop if there are a few people in that town that is served by accident. 

 

Im still confused.

Youre saying someone at Kearny City Hall called up NJT and said "we want your buses to stop here, but also, please dont put up a sign to tell people about it?"

And NJT says "sure thing boss"

[go25]

29 minutes ago, jass said:

 

Im still confused.

Youre saying someone at Kearny City Hall called up NJT and said "we want your buses to stop here, but also, please dont put up a sign to tell people about it?"

And NJT says "sure thing boss"

Pretty much, politics in a nutshell

[553 Bridgeton]

5 hours ago, jass said:

 

Im still confused.

Youre saying someone at Kearny City Hall called up NJT and said "we want your buses to stop here, but also, please dont put up a sign to tell people about it?"

And NJT says "sure thing boss"

That’s exactly what I’m saying. Njt does not put up the signs, the towns are responsible for that as well. The towns at any moment can call njt and say your buses have to now make a right instead of a left effective immediately.

NJT is very political. The 504/505 line for example should be 40ft lines but people complained to the town saying 40ft buses was destroying the roads and cracking the walls in houses, so njt had to start ordering 30ft buses way back when. 

Service ends in certain areas at midnight or shortly after because the buses wake people up. The 163/164/167/165/166 look at how frequent those lines are but after 9pm they become spotty. Those towns they travel through have noise ordinances; NJT has to adhere to the town being tax payers pay for njt.

Edited November 17, 2021 by 553 Bridgeton

[Lawrence St]

14 hours ago, jass said:

 

Im still confused.

Youre saying someone at Kearny City Hall called up NJT and said "we want your buses to stop here, but also, please dont put up a sign to tell people about it?"

And NJT says "sure thing boss"

Yup. What sucks is people think that the bus HAS to stop there at all times, and when it dosent they wanna start fighting with the driver or file a complaint.

For example, I was on the 82 one day and a passenger started cursing out the bus operator because he didn't stop at a courtesy stop, and then threatened to file a complaint and say this was "kidnapping".

@553 Bridgeton correct me if I'm wrong, but if a bus operator was to stop at a courtsey stop and they get into an accident, NJT can punish that operator up to & including termination correct?

[jass]

16 hours ago, go25 said:

Pretty much, politics in a nutshell

Seems like a broken system.

Is the solution a state level law giving NJT more power?

I also complained to NJT that two of their bus stops are in a place where parking is explicitly allowed by the signs. The response was basically "cool story bro". I would have thought they at least have a government relations person on staff to call up the town and get that sorted.

[553 Bridgeton]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

 

@553 Bridgeton correct me if I'm wrong, but if a bus operator was to stop at a courtsey stop and they get into an accident, NJT can punish that operator up to & including termination correct?

Correct, if you think it’s safe you stop but if the company goes out and says different you could be terminated; depending of how bad the accident is. Me I only stop at bus stops, don’t like it, call. The bus stop protects you and if a accident occurs; there is nothing the company can do to you. 

[553 Bridgeton]

1 hour ago, jass said:

Seems like a broken system.

Is the solution a state level law giving NJT more power?

I also complained to NJT that two of their bus stops are in a place where parking is explicitly allowed by the signs. The response was basically "cool story bro". I would have thought they at least have a government relations person on staff to call up the town and get that sorted.

Nj is a political state and njt would never have that power. It’s so political that local towns that want new buses will tell njt. None of those towns market st lines run in care about the buses so it’ll be a while before that depot ever sees new buses. Oradell was the same way not just because of space. 

 

 When the hybrids came 4008-4044, cape may county was complaining the buses was too loud so egg harbor got the first batch of new buses first. Then the towns in Cumberland County complained the hybrids was tearing up the roads due to the weight, then the hybrids had to be moved to Ironbound and EHT got the 18000s along with Washington Twp. Also Sea Isle City and Avalon complained the hybrids was the reason the Townsend Inlet bridge was deteriorating due to weight. 
 

Egg Harbor received hybrids then 18000s. And Newton Av got 19000s. 

[jass]

57 minutes ago, 553 Bridgeton said:

Nj is a political state and njt would never have that power. It’s so political that local towns that want new buses will tell njt. None of those towns market st lines run in care about the buses so it’ll be a while before that depot ever sees new buses. Oradell was the same way not just because of space. 

 

 When the hybrids came 4008-4044, cape may county was complaining the buses was too loud so egg harbor got the first batch of new buses first. Then the towns in Cumberland County complained the hybrids was tearing up the roads due to the weight, then the hybrids had to be moved to Ironbound and EHT got the 18000s along with Washington Twp. Also Sea Isle City and Avalon complained the hybrids was the reason the Townsend Inlet bridge was deteriorating due to weight. 
 

Egg Harbor received hybrids then 18000s. And Newton Av got 19000s. 

But at the same time, every time a town does a road project, NJT attends the meetings and demands wider lanes.

NJT blocked a bike lane project in Jersey City because they said if the bike lane was put in, they would ban the drivers from stopping along that roadway due to the "danger" created.

So NJT does have power, but they use it badly. Ive never heard of NJ threatening to stop service if a town doesnt make their bus stop ADA accessible.

[Lawrence St]

On 11/17/2021 at 4:03 PM, 553 Bridgeton said:

Correct, if you think it’s safe you stop but if the company goes out and says different you could be terminated; depending of how bad the accident is. Me I only stop at bus stops, don’t like it, call. The bus stop protects you and if a accident occurs; there is nothing the company can do to you. 

100%. What sucks is that other drivers will stop at a courtesy stop, but others wont and passengers start throwing a tantrum saying "Ive been riding this bus for x years, you dont know how to do your job, etc etc". And I feel bad that the driver has to put up with this foolishness.

 

[Lawrence St]

Does anyone have a cost tag of how much these "game day only" terminals have cost?

Cause it's kind of ridiculous how we're wasting tax payer money on stations that are only used for games. I could understand Belmont Park, but there's no excuse why Meadowlands is a game day only station at a cost of $12.2 million. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 11/22/2021 at 9:19 PM, Lawrence St said:

Does anyone have a cost tag of how much these "game day only" terminals have cost?

Cause it's kind of ridiculous how we're wasting tax payer money on stations that are only used for games. I could understand Belmont Park, but there's no excuse why Meadowlands is a game day only station at a cost of $12.2 million. 

Oh please.  If they aren't build, no one will want to take public transit to these events. It may be $12.2 million, but that's over the span of the stadium/arena, etc. which is 20-30 years... Not a huge amount of money in the overall scheme of things.

[Lawrence St]

Can someone explain this history with Saddle River?

So what I know so far is Saddle River bid for the Bergen contract and won in 2018, but it was reverted back to Coach USA in 2019, so why did they only have the contract for a year?

[R10 2952]

@jass A big part of the problem with NJT is apathy on the part of most riders.  Only a few people here and there will be vocal about service improvements, whereas the vast majority choose (for whatever reason) to suffer in silence.  Throw into the mix NIMBYs and suburban Jerseyites who are openly anti-transit, and that's how you end up with a system where people can get from Lakewood to PABT all hours of the day, but you won't find a single regular-service bus that goes from Freehold to Trenton, Pompton to Paterson, or Butler to Newark.

What drives me up the wall the most is that each of the random examples I mentioned above used to not just have bus options, but actual rail connections back in the day, some of which are still used for freight.  Unfortunately, although NJ has a lot of potential in terms of developing an all-inclusive bus and rail network, instead of 'build it and they will come', too often the Jersey modus operandi (outside of the hub connections to NYC and Newark) seems to be 'destroy it and push them away'.

Edited December 2, 2021 by R10 2952

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

@jass A big part of the problem with NJT is apathy on the part of most riders.  Only a few people here and there will be vocal about service improvements, whereas the vast majority choose (for whatever reason) to suffer in silence.  Throw into the mix NIMBYs and suburban Jerseyites who are openly anti-transit, and that's how you end up with a system where people can get from Lakewood to PABT all hours of the day, but you won't find a single regular-service bus that goes from Freehold to Trenton, Pompton to Paterson, or Butler to Newark.

What drives me up the wall the most is that each of the random examples I mentioned above used to not just have bus options, but actual rail connections back in the day, some of which are still used for freight.  Unfortunately, although NJ has a lot of potential in terms of developing an all-inclusive bus and rail network, instead of 'build it and they will come', too often the Jersey modus operandi (outside of the hub connections to NYC and Newark) seems to be 'destroy it and push them away'.

The 748 is a regular route that goes from Pompton to Paterson (even though it should go Pompton to Willowbrook).

[R10 2952]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

The 748 is a regular route that goes from Pompton to Paterson (even though it should go Pompton to Willowbrook).

I meant regular in the sense of running more than a single AM trip to Paterson and a single PM trip to Pompton.  And as someone who's been in and out of that part of Passaic County for over 20 years and counting, sending everything to Willowbrook just isn't a genuine solution.  Not everyone is trying to get to a mall in a dead-end part of Wayne.

There's plenty of Passaic residents right now that are driving to work within the state (Paterson, Fort Lee, Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark) at least in part because NJT only gives them the option of going to PABT.  Not everyone works in NYC.  Much the opposite in fact.  Factor in the wait times at the mall, and it's no wonder that so many cars clog up the Jersey highways. 

Nobody wants to take public transit if it means making two transfers and taking three hours just to get across county lines. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by R10 2952

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

I meant regular in the sense of running more than a single AM trip to Paterson and a single PM trip to Pompton.  And as someone who's been in and out of that part of Passaic County for over 20 years and counting, sending everything to Willowbrook just isn't a genuine solution.  Not everyone is trying to get to a mall in a dead-end part of Wayne.

There's plenty of Passaic residents right now that are driving to work within the state (Paterson, Fort Lee, Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark) at least in part because NJT only gives them the option of going to PABT.  Not everyone works in NYC.  Much the opposite in fact.  Factor in the wait times at the mall, and it's no wonder that so many cars clog up the Jersey highways. 

Nobody wants to take public transit if it means making two transfers and taking three hours just to get across county lines. 

And who exactly is going from Pompton Lakes to Paterson?

[R10 2952]

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

And who exactly is going from Pompton Lakes to Paterson?

Off the top of my head, I knew at least 2-3 people from the Pompton-Riverdale-Pequannock area who drove to work in the Paterson area.  Don't know what's so surprising about that.

[Lawrence St]

23 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Off the top of my head, I knew at least 2-3 people from the Pompton-Riverdale-Pequannock area who drove to work in the Paterson area.  Don't know what's so surprising about that.

I've taken the 748 as part of a redesign thing I'm doing and every 748 trip I've ridden out of Pompton Lakes has had 0 people. 

Then again, New Jersey Transit is short on bus operators so there are suppose to be 3 trips in total but only one runs each day.

The 748 also is just a weird route in general. Idk why the thing dosent short turn in Haledon instead of going all the way down to City Hall during late nights.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lawrence St

[553 Bridgeton]

3 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I've taken the 748 as part of a redesign thing I'm doing and every 748 trip I've ridden out of Pompton Lakes has had 0 people. 

Then again, New Jersey Transit is short on bus operators so there are suppose to be 3 trips in total but only one runs each day.

They have been cutting lines that have the least ridership first. Usually the depot masters will ask operators that know passengers patterns well on which ones they can cut. 

[Lawrence St]

15 minutes ago, 553 Bridgeton said:

They have been cutting lines that have the least ridership first. Usually the depot masters will ask operators that know passengers patterns well on which ones they can cut. 

As they should. Most of these lines don't even carry.

The 772 is a prime example of wasted resources, there's no reason the thing should be running via Gotham Pkwy outside of the rush, and going north of Hackensack to New Milford.

[Lawrence St]

22 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

As they should. Most of these lines don't even carry.

The 772 is a prime example of wasted resources, there's no reason the thing should be running via Gotham Pkwy outside of the rush, and going north of Hackensack to New Milford.

This was part of the redesign plan I was doing, but I'll take a section out for the 772. @B35 via Church let me know your thoughts:

Quote

The new 772 has been split into 3 separate branches:

772: American Dream to Hackensack Bus Terminal (6:20 AM to 10:30 PM, 7 days a week). Weekend service operates bi-hourly.

772G: Carlstadt-Gotham Pkwy to Hackensack Bus Terminal (Rush Hours Only)

772M: American Dream to New Milford-Madison Av (Two trips each weekday only).

This reduces the duplication of bus service along Teaneck Road since almost no one rides the 772 along that stretch, and most people go for the 780 or the 182.

The 772G can be interlined with the 703 since they both end in the same place. 

The 772M keeps rush hour service to New Milford for people going to the college.

[R10 2952]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I've taken the 748 as part of a redesign thing I'm doing and every 748 trip I've ridden out of Pompton Lakes has had 0 people. 

When a route is run so bad as to only have 2 trips a day, then of course people are going to use other options.  Factor in the coronavirus and that's how ridership can drop to zero.  This wouldn't be happening if the 748 actually ran regularly enough to actually incentivize people to use it.  Willful neglect on the part of NJT.

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Then again, New Jersey Transit is short on bus operators so there are suppose to be 3 trips in total but only one runs each day.

If it's that badly run, then yes, of course it will drive potential riders away.  Nobody likes waiting for a bus that won't show up, especially in the cold weather.

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The 748 also is just a weird route in general. Idk why the thing dosent short turn in Haledon instead of going all the way down to City Hall during late nights.

Goes back to NJT's history of poor route management practices in certain areas (Passaic and Morris being one of them).  They mismanaged the 75 into oblivion to the point nobody would ride it (winding routing, infrequent scheduling), and before they cut the 11 to Willowbrook from Bloomingdale back in the '80s I imagine it was the same thing.  No-show buses, shitty schedules, and/or slow speeds will ruin even the best route. 

If Jersey leaders really want to get residents to ditch their cars (and the truth is that there are many local NJ pols who don't), they need to improve service.  Forcing everybody towards NYC at the expense of cutting NJ-only service has not been a successful strategy over the last 20 years.  All it's done is make things worse. 

[BreeddekalbL]

Can someone review my proposals in the proposal thread please 

 

 

[B35 via Church]

On 11/9/2021 at 2:52 AM, Mtatransit said:

I would argue that a lot of the ridership from Lakewood on the 139 is off the bus by Freehold as well. That stop seems to be the point where NYC riders start boarding in masses. There seems to be some demand between US 9 served by the 139 and US 9 served by the 559. By centralizing everything at Toms River, passengers could transfer from all directions. For example Pax from Atlantic City can take the 319 and xfer to the 67 or the 139 north, or 559 south. If there can be some sort of pulse operation there, it is even better

You are absolutely correct in that no one will utilize the P + R for intra-NJ location, but that location in my opinion has better transfer options and is a better transfer point than Lakewood is

  To the parts in bold there, I think you may have stumbled on to a case for having a local route run b/w Freehold Center & Toms River (via rt. 9), and the #139 cut back to Freehold... The peak hour #139 variants (#130/132/136) that already do, would continue to serve areas b/w Freehold & Lakewood.... Said local route can also serve Freehold Raceway Mall, something the #139 doesn't do....

Anyway, a pulse operation at Toms River would be DOA; park & ride type bus stops/terminals tend to not make for good pulse point operations... The closest thing NJT has to a pulse point operation is what goes on with the Morristown routes.... Be there as it may, while Lakewood Twp. has much less going on for it than Toms River Twp., I can't say that Toms River P&R has better transfer options than Lakewood Terminal.... Both Lakewood & Toms River mutually has the #67 & the #559 serving it.... Outside of that, Toms River P&R has the #137 & the #319, while Lakewood Terminal has the #139 & the #317... There are way more people xferring b/w buses in particular at Lakewood Terminal than at Toms River P&R.... There are more people waiting for buses in general at Toms River P&R because, well, the majority of them are either driving there to catch a bus, or being driven there to catch a bus.... It's very easy to overlook that nuance.

I get that you're presenting an ideal case, but I don't see it being worth it to extend the #139 to Toms River - for a large part of the reason being that Lakewood Terminal physically (along with the feel/aura surrounding it) is, for lack of a better term, shit.....