Bronx Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[B35 via Church]

delete.

Edited June 18, 2017 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Do you? Lol... While I think the MTA is content with letting the Bx40/42 wallow in their own pigsties (I still say the tremont routes went to pot, the minute they made them artic routes), I think they threw LTD's on the Bx36 for no other reason than to cater to interborough riders (much like what BM5 wants to primarily do for with a Bx11 LTD).... Someone else had a theory years ago (don't remember if it was on here or if I read it on Subchat) that the MTA gave the Bx36 LTD service as to not provide LTD service for the Bx39, since the Bx41 already had one (this was before they cut the Bx41 back & extended the Bx39 northward)..... Something to that effect...

 

Regarding the ADA issue as it relates to Bx8 riders vs Bx24 riders, I'm inclined to agree with that.... Also, when they had Bx8's running through Country Club for a brief moment (however long that diversion lasted before they reverted things), I think it was more to it than the noise pollution complaints.... I mean, who really complains about too much service.... But yeah, there is definitely a "divide" at Layton; a mason-dixon line (as I like to put it).... As if to say, we (country club) don't want you (throgs neck) gaining access to an area you clearly don't belong in & don't deserve to lay eyes on.... Those folks really put stock in the name of the neighborhood as if it's really the case

 

Ridership is still decent @ the Throgs Neck houses; I'd compare it to Bx31 usage @ the Edenwald PJ's....

 

 

Having to head east & ultimately back west on the in order to do what?

 

I think I see what you're getting at now, and if it is, that's my fault....

 

On the drive yesterday, I was thinking more about the post I made yesterday morning... What I left out (from that list in question) is that the current Bx8 b/w Edgewater & Buhre (and eventually running to HMC) would become a new route......

 

There's no point of having a route run from Emerson/Harding to Pennyfield, to do the current Bx8... The idea was to have the Bx8 do exactly what the Bx42 does south of Westchester Sq, then do the current Bx8 up to Gun Hill, then hang a left to WPR.....

Yes Throggs Neck and Country Club are different as in Country Club feels more aligned with Pelham Bay. Aside from the Bx24, nothing else serves the area directly and clearly the residents like it that way. Very suburban area with limited retail. The BxM8 just passes by the border.

Do you? Lol... While I think the MTA is content with letting the Bx40/42 wallow in their own pigsties (I still say the tremont routes went to pot, the minute they made them artic routes), I think they threw LTD's on the Bx36 for no other reason than to cater to interborough riders (much like what BM5 wants to primarily do for with a Bx11 LTD).... Someone else had a theory years ago (don't remember if it was on here or if I read it on Subchat) that the MTA gave the Bx36 LTD service as to not provide LTD service for the Bx39, since the Bx41 already had one (this was before they cut the Bx41 back & extended the Bx39 northward)..... Something to that effect...

 

Regarding the ADA issue as it relates to Bx8 riders vs Bx24 riders, I'm inclined to agree with that.... Also, when they had Bx8's running through Country Club for a brief moment (however long that diversion lasted before they reverted things), I think it was more to it than the noise pollution complaints.... I mean, who really complains about too much service.... But yeah, there is definitely a "divide" at Layton; a mason-dixon line (as I like to put it).... As if to say, we (country club) don't want you (throgs neck) gaining access to an area you clearly don't belong in & don't deserve to lay eyes on.... Those folks really put stock in the name of the neighborhood as if it's really the case

 

Ridership is still decent @ the Throgs Neck houses; I'd compare it to Bx31 usage @ the Edenwald PJ's....

 

 

Having to head east & ultimately back west on the in order to do what?

 

I think I see what you're getting at now, and if it is, that's my fault....

 

On the drive yesterday, I was thinking more about the post I made yesterday morning... What I left out (from that list in question) is that the current Bx8 b/w Edgewater & Buhre (and eventually running to HMC) would become a new route......

 

There's no point of having a route run from Emerson/Harding to Pennyfield, to do the current Bx8... The idea was to have the Bx8 do exactly what the Bx42 does south of Westchester Sq, then do the current Bx8 up to Gun Hill, then hang a left to WPR.....

Yes Throggs Neck and Country Club are different as in Country Club feels more aligned with Pelham Bay. Aside from the Bx24, nothing else serves the area directly and clearly the residents like it that way. Very suburban area with limited retail. The BxM8 just passes by the border.

[Q43LTD]

 

 

I have a 2009 service reductions booklet somewhere. I can double-check, but I'm 99% sure the Q84 would've been reduced to rush hour-only. The Q56 (along with the B25, Bx4, M10, and B75) would've been eliminated.

The Q42 was reduced to rush hour (which eventually happened), the Q84 would have eliminated entirely. I'm sure

[B35 via Church]

Yeah, they were talking about eliminating the Q84... I remember that also...

 

Here's a petition to Keep Service Active on Q84 Bus Line in Queens

[Q43 Floral Park]

Do you? Lol... While I think the MTA is content with letting the Bx40/42 wallow in their own pigsties (I still say the tremont routes went to pot, the minute they made them artic routes), I think they threw LTD's on the Bx36 for no other reason than to cater to interborough riders (much like what BM5 wants to primarily do for with a Bx11 LTD).... Someone else had a theory years ago (don't remember if it was on here or if I read it on Subchat) that the MTA gave the Bx36 LTD service as to not provide LTD service for the Bx39, since the Bx41 already had one (this was before they cut the Bx41 back & extended the Bx39 northward)..... Something to that effect...

 

Regarding the ADA issue as it relates to Bx8 riders vs Bx24 riders, I'm inclined to agree with that.... Also, when they had Bx8's running through Country Club for a brief moment (however long that diversion lasted before they reverted things), I think it was more to it than the noise pollution complaints.... I mean, who really complains about too much service.... But yeah, there is definitely a "divide" at Layton; a mason-dixon line (as I like to put it).... As if to say, we (country club) don't want you (throgs neck) gaining access to an area you clearly don't belong in & don't deserve to lay eyes on.... Those folks really put stock in the name of the neighborhood as if it's really the case

 

Ridership is still decent @ the Throgs Neck houses; I'd compare it to Bx31 usage @ the Edenwald PJ's....

 

Having to head east & ultimately back west on the in order to do what?

 

I think I see what you're getting at now, and if it is, that's my fault....

 

On the drive yesterday, I was thinking more about the post I made yesterday morning... What I left out (from that list in question) is that the current Bx8 b/w Edgewater & Buhre (and eventually running to HMC) would become a new route......

 

There's no point of having a route run from Emerson/Harding to Pennyfield, to do the current Bx8... The idea was to have the Bx8 do exactly what the Bx42 does south of Westchester Sq, then do the current Bx8 up to Gun Hill, then hang a left to WPR.....

 

I know the primary purpose was for interborough riders but it seems like over the years, intraborough ridership has shifted from the Bx40/42 to the Bx36, maybe as an unintended consequence (still inclined to think they knew this would happen). I can't prove it and I don't recall what the pre-artic headways were (I agree they're partially to blame for the bad service) but the combination of the Bx36 being more frequent and having LTD service makes it more attractive, even in cases where I specifically need a Bx40/42 stop. Granted the Bx36 has it's own bunching issues (tbh it needs some Q5/85 style LTD runs that end at WFS/HC) but I'd rather just walk to it than play with the Bx40/42. That's interesting... them giving the Bx36 LTD service to avoid Bx39 LTD service never really crossed my mind because:

a) the runtime on the coverage portion from Parkchester-Story isn't long at all (its 9 minutes to Randall local or LTD)

b) Bx39's would still be in a bunched up line North of BPE (only place a bus would be able to bypass another would be Boston Rd)

 

They had a somewhat valid complaint regarding the noise because the Bx14 never ran CNGs (Locust Point is far more isolated/quieter so I honestly didn't see the problem). At the same time they also didn't want Parkchester riders on the Bx14 having access to CC (not like there was any reason for them to ride over there), which is why they let it get cut. Country Club's pride caused a self-inflicted wound that messed up service for years... I was at the point where I felt like they should have just forced everyone to walk to the Q50 at Bruckner if they wanted a way out. Lol yeah a friend of mine refuses to admit to living in CC because they find that mason-dixon line pointless.

 

I'm going to have to try that end of the 42 one day but I agree with BM5 using Balcom straight would be more efficient..

 

So you'd bring back the old Bx23 but extended on both ends... Is there any particular reason for keeping the Edgewater Park and Locust Point routes separate? Also why cut the Bx8 off of Bronxwood north of GH? I'm not saying that the fact that it's always been up there is reason enough to keep it, but it'd leave a decent gap between WPR and Eastchester.

 

The Q42 was reduced to rush hour (which eventually happened), the Q84 would have eliminated entirely. I'm sure

 

While I haven't ridden the Q42 it seemed easier to reduce because everything sans the stop on Rex/Fern and the Sayres portion are near more frequent routes.

 

I have a 2009 service reductions booklet somewhere. I can double-check, but I'm 99% sure the Q84 would've been reduced to rush hour-only. The Q56 (along with the B25, Bx4, M10, and B75) would've been eliminated.

 

 

This was all I could find but yeah they wanted to cut the whole Q84 like it isn't .4-.5 miles away from the Q4 for the most part. It's bad enough its the M3 of Merrick Blvd... http://www.straphangers.org/fare/facts_service_cuts.pdf

[checkmatechamp13]

Re S76: I know you live in SI so you know more about this than me but that cut always seemed like it was based on the assumption no one wanted to go up/down New Dorp/Mill Rds on weekends (which seemed like BS).

 

Yeah, that was basically their logic. Ridership in Park Hill was heavy, but those people were generally within walking distance of the S74 or the S52/78 (except for those who lived further down Osgood, who basically have the S53 at one end of the street, the S76 at the other end, and nothing in the middle. Technically, Osgood continues down to Targee Street, but the feel of that section of the street is different). 

 

Anyway, yeah, ridership in New Dorp Beach/Oakwood Beach wasn't as strong as ridership on the S51 in Midland Beach, but it still got its share of riders. 

[B35 via Church]

I know the primary purpose was for interborough riders but it seems like over the years, intraborough ridership has shifted from the Bx40/42 to the Bx36, maybe as an unintended consequence (still inclined to think they knew this would happen). I can't prove it and I don't recall what the pre-artic headways were (I agree they're partially to blame for the bad service) but the combination of the Bx36 being more frequent and having LTD service makes it more attractive, even in cases where I specifically need a Bx40/42 stop. Granted the Bx36 has it's own bunching issues (tbh it needs some Q5/85 style LTD runs that end at WFS/HC) but I'd rather just walk to it than play with the Bx40/42.

 

That's interesting... them giving the Bx36 LTD service to avoid Bx39 LTD service never really crossed my mind because:

a) the runtime on the coverage portion from Parkchester-Story isn't long at all (its 9 minutes [6 to Randall] local or LTD)

b) Bx39's would still be in a bunched up line North of BPE (only place a bus would be able to bypass another would be Boston Rd)

 

They had a somewhat valid complaint regarding the noise because the Bx14 never ran CNGs (Locust Point is far more isolated/quieter so I honestly didn't see the problem). At the same time they also didn't want Parkchester riders on the Bx14 having access to CC (not like there was any reason for them to ride over there), which is why they let it get cut. Country Club's pride caused a self-inflicted wound that messed up service for years... I was at the point where I felt like they should have just forced everyone to walk to the Q50 at Bruckner if they wanted a way out. Lol yeah a friend of mine refuses to admit to living in CC because they find that mason-dixon line pointless.

 

I'm going to have to try that end of the 42 one day but I agree with BM5 using Balcom straight would be more efficient..

 

So you'd bring back the old Bx23 but extended on both ends... Is there any particular reason for keeping the Edgewater Park and Locust Point routes separate? Also why cut the Bx8 off of Bronxwood north of GH? I'm not saying that the fact that it's always been up there is reason enough to keep it, but it'd leave a decent gap between WPR and Eastchester.

Outside of believing that they started the Bx36 LTD more for interborough riders, I never bothered concurring with said aforementioned theory - for the simple fact that I never really thought the Bx39 needed a LTD back then anyway (when it ended at GH)... While I don't know how things are out in Soundview now, I'd have to say that the Bx36 has played 2nd fiddle to the Bx39 for the longest - even though there's simply more service on the Bx36.... At the same time, I'd have to say that the Bx5 IMO is rather under-utilized at/around WPR.... Sure, the masses use it for the shopping area & what not, but it doesn't really do the residents east of WPR (the same ones taking Bx36/39's) much of any justice..... I personally would change that....

 

For as much bitching that CC did regarding bus service, I got to that same point of wanting the MTA to take away all direct service inside their overrated, fake affluent neighborhood & having them take Q50's & Bx5's (which is something else I don't like about that route.... It has no business running up to PBP) to the subway or whatever... They're like the annoying little brats that ask you a question.... You answer, then they ask, "Why", after every goddamn subsequent answer you give.... What they wanted was their own private shuttle, only stopping at PBP, Westchester Sq., and commercial Parkchester (not running in residential Parkchester, as you somewhat allude to)... Basically, the Bx24 before the extension to HMC, extended to Hugh Grant/Parkchester subway..... Of course, they wasn't getting that..... After the carousel of changes that transpired between the time the Bx14 was in operation & today's Bx24, they should be lucky they have anything..... I will admit running Bx8's through Country Club was rather stupid though....

 

That was Checkmate that mentioned running buses down Balcom.... I personally don't have a problem w/ what the Bx42 does down there.... Probably because I'm used to the B57/B62's routing around the Farragut houses...

 

Nah, no particular reason as to why Locust pt. & Edgewater wouldn't be served w/ the same route...

In regards to what I mentioned over the weekend regarding split Bx40 service b/w the 2 areas, what I was thinking is to have short turned Bx40's (running from Webster or something) run 40-footers & the full routed Bx40's (obv. from River Park Twrs.) run artics.... Basically, heading east for example, if you see an artic, it's going to SUNY Maritime & if you see a 40'er, it's going to Locust point.... I'm trying to remember the route that the MTA did that equivalent on & it's not hitting me right now; where the short turns ran 40' & the buses that did the full route had artics on em..... Well w/e that route was, that's where I "borrowed" that train of thought from....

 

The Bx8 along Bronxwood north of Gun Hill eventually ending at 225th (the current route) I feel is a waste.... Only two other options is to extend it northward (which seems to be the consensus), or to twist it in the opposite direction to/wards the Edenwald houses... Neither of which I think is really worth it; running the Bx8 up to 233rd (for example) I see as pointless, since the masses will continue to gun for Bx31's anyway.... Those two routes have similar problems with overall usage (Bx8, 31), but there's simply more of a clamoring for the Bx31.... I have never gotten that same feel for/about the Bx8 in the more northern part of the borough.....

 

You raise a point with the gap, but I get the sense that folks are walking to WPR for the subway (or the Bx39) anyway..... Bronxwood up there isn't much more than a WPR bypass... Wanna escape the headache....

 

...take the 8.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

 

Anyway, I've always thought the Bx21 should continue along E. Tremont (instead of serving the Morris Park av section) over to Westchester Sq..... I've never thought about breaking up the Bx21 per se, but if buses were to end at E. 180th, I would not combine the Morris Park section w/ the southern portion of the Bx8.... I would do one of 2 things (personally leaning more towards the first one):

 

- look to connect that side of the RR tracks to the other; basically meaning having the route serve Morris Park av, then run up Eastchester rd to Pelham Pkwy, then run along Pelham Pkwy, etc. to get to the Mall @ Bay Plaza.... The route wouldn't (need to) serve any sections of Co-op.....

- combine the Morris Park section of the Bx21 & the Bx24 (the combined route would run to Country Club via Middletown/Jarvis)... This way, you won't have to axe the Waters pl. segment.....

 

As much as IDRC for buses ending there (I think some route should loop in & out of that complex instead), you could have the southern portion of the Bx8 end at HMC instead of the Bx24.... Which would yield more service to the HMC....

 

The current Bx21 backdoor-ing its way to Westchester Sq. is a waste of time & having a bus run clear up Westchester av b/w Westchester Sq. & PBP (the current Bx24) is wasteful..... Funny how the elderly people coming off the Bx8 @ Buhre av aren't complaining about ADA issues, but folks off the old Bx14/current 24 did.... That's really the only reason the Bx24 serves PBP; it's not even about the bus connections.....

 

I don't mind splitting the Bx8, but to be perfectly honest, I'd do it more for the southern section than the northern section.... The only thing I'd change w/ the southern section of the route, is to have it end at Edgewater (and layover along the service rd - like some b/o's actually do [or, at least used to.... don't know if it's still being done], before running down to begin their trips out of Locust Pt.).... Whenever it comes to the Bx8, I think folks have a tendency to underestimate the southern section & overestimate the northern section (which honestly, I think you're doing in your reply to Jubai, regarding the implication that he's underestimating the southern section).... Anyway, the main gripe I have w/ the northern portion of the Bx8 is its stint along Bronxwood & the fact that it ends at 225th ....

 

Think I got to everything I wanted to reply to (before I dozed off... Lol)

------------------------

 

I gotta get up outta here right now, but I'll leave something for you (and others... and myself really) to ponder...

I just thought about it, so it's not anything I'm dead set on (yet, anyway)..... How's about:

 

- Eliminating the "Bx42" (or, the Bx40 variant that serves the Throgs Neck houses, which is how I look at it)...

- Individual Bx40 service would have to be increased as a result of this, but buses would terminate over at Tierney (Locust Pt.) or SUNY Maritime - w/ the lion's share of service doing so at the latter....

- Run the Bx8 b/w Harding/Emerson & Gun Hill rd .... The last dropoff stop would be at the Bx30 WB stop for Gun Hill/WPR & the first pickup stop back south would be @ the SE corner of WPR/Gun Hill - where the Bx39 used to terminate at.....

The reason I had for combining the two sections was because of the similarity in demographics between the neighborhoods the bus route would pass (Morris Park on the Bx21; Throgs Neck on the Bx8), and for access to certain restaurants and nightlife areas in Throgs Neck (that the Bx8 passes by, or pass near). You could have some new trips coming from that combo and more trips through Westchester Square that way.

 

While I would agree (to an extent) with the Bx21 along East Tremont, It would leave a bit of a connectivity gap in the area immediately north, since there would be no East-West route until Pelham Parkway, so something should serve it as coverage. However, I think the amount of service on the Bx21 is more than enough for that area (it's a bit too much at times, especially on weekends). The BxM10 gets good usage up there though.

 

Regarding Bx40/Bx42 service, I would still keep the Bx42. However, I was actually just thinking of splitting the Bx40 (or at least designate it different, with A or B notation, or Bx40/Bx43) between SUNY Maritime & Locust Point, just to serve Locust Point. However, I don't think that serving Locust Point is necessary, so I would just keep the service as it is on the Bx40, truncate the Bx8 to Harding & Pennyfield.

 

Now that I'm thinking, I have something different planned for the Bx8. I think though that something should still serve the general vicinity of Bronxwood Avenue in some way. Although Bronxwood is "close" to WPR, my problem is that it's generally used by people going south (and I've seen quite a few head east from there, which leads me to believe that the route may even be used as a Bx31 backup in that area, because the Bx8 is more frequent than the Bx31 during certain times of the day, and the Bx8 isn't very far from the Bx31 in that area). 

On the drive yesterday, I was thinking more about the post I made yesterday morning... What I left out (from that list in question) is that the current Bx8 b/w Edgewater & Buhre (and eventually running to HMC) would become a new route......

 

There's no point of having a route run from Emerson/Harding to Pennyfield, to do the current Bx8... The idea was to have the Bx8 do exactly what the Bx42 does south of Westchester Sq, then do the current Bx8 up to Gun Hill, then hang a left to WPR.....

Okay, so the plan would essentially be:

 

Bx8: Emerson/Harding to Gun Hill Road, doing the Bx42 south of Westchester Square, and the Modified northern Bx8 north of Westchester Square

 

Southern Bx8: Current route up to Westchester Square, then to HMC

 

Bx42: Discontinued

 

Bx40: Increased service for a portion of the route.

Outside of believing that they started the Bx36 LTD more for interborough riders, I never bothered concurring with said aforementioned theory - for the simple fact that I never really thought the Bx39 needed a LTD back then anyway (when it ended at GH)... While I don't know how things are out in Soundview now, I'd have to say that the Bx36 has played 2nd fiddle to the Bx39 for the longest - even though there's simply more service on the Bx36.... At the same time, I'd have to say that the Bx5 IMO is rather under-utilized at/around WPR.... Sure, the masses use it for the shopping area & what not, but it doesn't really do the residents east of WPR (the same ones taking Bx36/39's) much of any justice..... I personally would change that....

 

For as much bitching that CC did regarding bus service, I got to that same point of wanting the MTA to take away all direct service inside their overrated, fake affluent neighborhood & having them take Q50's & Bx5's (which is something else I don't like about that route.... It has no business running up to PBP) to the subway or whatever... They're like the annoying little brats that ask you a question.... You answer, then they ask, "Why", after every goddamn subsequent answer you give.... What they wanted was their own private shuttle, only stopping at PBP, Westchester Sq., and commercial Parkchester (not running in residential Parkchester, as you somewhat allude to)... Basically, the Bx24 before the extension to HMC, extended to Hugh Grant/Parkchester subway..... Of course, they wasn't getting that..... After the carousel of changes that transpired between the time the Bx14 was in operation & today's Bx24, they should be lucky they have anything..... I will admit running Bx8's through Country Club was rather stupid though....

 

That was Checkmate that mentioned running buses down Balcom.... I personally don't have a problem w/ what the Bx42 does down there.... Probably because I'm used to the B57/B62's routing around the Farragut houses...

 

Nah, no particular reason as to why Locust pt. & Edgewater wouldn't be served w/ the same route...

In regards to what I mentioned over the weekend regarding split Bx40 service b/w the 2 areas, what I was thinking is to have short turned Bx40's (running from Webster or something) run 40-footers & the full routed Bx40's (obv. from River Park Twrs.) run artics.... Basically, heading east for example, if you see an artic, it's going to SUNY Maritime & if you see a 40'er, it's going to Locust point.... I'm trying to remember the route that the MTA did that equivalent on & it's not hitting me right now; where the short turns ran 40' & the buses that did the full route had artics on em..... Well w/e that route was, that's where I "borrowed" that train of thought from....

 

The Bx8 along Bronxwood north of Gun Hill eventually ending at 225th (the current route) I feel is a waste.... Only two other options is to extend it northward (which seems to be the consensus), or to twist it in the opposite direction to/wards the Edenwald houses... Neither of which I think is really worth it; running the Bx8 up to 233rd (for example) I see as pointless, since the masses will continue to gun for Bx31's anyway.... Those two routes have similar problems with overall usage (Bx8, 31), but there's simply more of a clamoring for the Bx31.... I have never gotten that same feel for/about the Bx8 in the more northern part of the borough.....

 

You raise a point with the gap, but I get the sense that folks are walking to WPR for the subway (or the Bx39) anyway..... Bronxwood up there isn't much more than a WPR bypass... Wanna escape the headache....

 

...take the 8.

Reading this post kinda gave me an idea for what I would do with the Bx8.

 

So, the Bx8 I had envisioned is either:

 

A) From Westchester Square, runs to Gun Hill, takes Gun Hill, then goes up WPR, turns on E 222 Street (acts as a crosstown bus), Laconia Avenue, E 225 Street, then the current Bx31 routing to White Plains Road, and either goes on to Woodlawn or terminates.

B) Same route as A until Gun Hill Road, but continues up Bronxwood, takes 225 Street, goes around Edenwald, following the Bx31 route until WPR.

C) Same route as A until Gun Hill Road, but goes east on Gun Hill, takes Boston Road, up Eastchester Road and follows the Bx31 route until WPR or Woodlawn. 

 

In each scenario though, the Bx31 would be discontinued. The southern portion of the Bx8 could continue up Eastchester Road until Gun Hill, and then run to Bay Plaza, or the eastern Bx21 could run up Eastchester Road to Gun Hill, and then to Bay Plaza, or something else happens. Leaving Eastchester Road with that would be too much of a gap, IMO.

Edited June 21, 2017 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[Q43 Floral Park]

I didn't think this warranted a new thread because it technically has to do with proposals/ideas... Over the past week or so, I've notice countdown clocks going up in the Bronx. So far I've found one at the W/B Bx9/22/28 stop at the Kingsbridge/Grand Concourse; N/B on University Av/Burnside #2 (Bx3/40/42) and Tremont (Bx3/36). Besides the fact that I haven't seen any marketing on how many we'll get (maybe it's just a trial), my question is: who makes the call on where they get placed?

 

While I'm grateful to see them on routes I use, I just find it odd because Fordham or 231 Street seem like they would have been better locations for the first ones. Fordham because of the many routes (I still don't understand how the M23/86 SBS got the digital stop clocks before the Bx12 SBS) and 231 Street because of how inconsistent those routes are. IMO, The one on Kingsbridge should probably be at Jerome and/or University because those stops are more heavily trafficked than GC. Also the fact that the signs aren't digital means they can't display short turns...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While I would agree (to an extent) with the Bx21 along East Tremont, It would leave a bit of a connectivity gap in the area immediately north, since there would be no East-West route until Pelham Parkway, so something should serve it as coverage. However, I think the amount of service on the Bx21 is more than enough for that area (it's a bit too much at times, especially on weekends). The BxM10 gets good usage up there though.

Up there where? Morris Park? If so then, not only does it get good usage... That area is the BxM10's bread and butter... The most important stop by far is Eastchester Road and Morris Park Avenue.  Between the residents that live there and the Albert Einstein students and faculty, the BxM10 wouldn't get nearly as much usage or service as it does.  The rest of the ridership from stops in Morris Park wouldn't do it.  The only stops that are busy that come close are Morris Park Avenue and Williamsbridge Road and Morris Park Avenue and Hone Avenue.  The stops in van Nest are hit or miss, along with those in Baychester.  The other big stop is in Pelham Gardens (Eastchester Road and Mace Avenue).

[B35 via Church]

The reason I had for combining the two sections was because of the similarity in demographics between the neighborhoods the bus route would pass (Morris Park on the Bx21; Throgs Neck on the Bx8), and for access to certain restaurants and nightlife areas in Throgs Neck (that the Bx8 passes by, or pass near). You could have some new trips coming from that combo and more trips through Westchester Square that way.

 

While I would agree (to an extent) with the Bx21 along East Tremont, It would leave a bit of a connectivity gap in the area immediately north, since there would be no East-West route until Pelham Parkway, so something should serve it as coverage. However, I think the amount of service on the Bx21 is more than enough for that area (it's a bit too much at times, especially on weekends). The BxM10 gets good usage up there though.

 

Regarding Bx40/Bx42 service, I would still keep the Bx42. However, I was actually just thinking of splitting the Bx40 (or at least designate it different, with A or B notation, or Bx40/Bx43) between SUNY Maritime & Locust Point, just to serve Locust Point. However, I don't think that serving Locust Point is necessary, so I would just keep the service as it is on the Bx40, truncate the Bx8 to Harding & Pennyfield.

 

Now that I'm thinking, I have something different planned for the Bx8. I think though that something should still serve the general vicinity of Bronxwood Avenue in some way. Although Bronxwood is "close" to WPR, my problem is that it's generally used by people going south (and I've seen quite a few head east from there, which leads me to believe that the route may even be used as a Bx31 backup in that area, because the Bx8 is more frequent than the Bx31 during certain times of the day, and the Bx8 isn't very far from the Bx31 in that area).

I wouldn't leave Morris park (av) with nothing... The 2 options I gave in an earlier post in here was one of either a] combining the Country Club portion of the Bx24 (connecting them to Buhre instead of PBP) with the current Bx21 portion of the route from Waters/Westchester on over to E. 180th subway - since you mentioned having buses end there.... b] Running buses b/w E. 180th subway & Bay Plaza via the current Bx21 to Eastchester, then upwards toward Pelham pkwy, etc. etc.... Option a] service-wise would have slightly better than coverage headways.... Option b] service-wise would run about every 10-15 throughout most of the day.... In either case, no connectivity gap would exist if the Bx21's were to be diverted to running along E. Tremont....

 

The amount of service on the current Bx21 is by far & large, for the 3rd av & the Boston rd. crowd....

Morris Park favors the BxM10 over the Bx21 & certainly does not warrant the amt. of BPH the Bx21 currently gets, separate of the above fact....

 

For the retort you bring up (about ending the Bx8 at Harding/Pennyfield), I don't see the point if you'd leave Locust with nothing.... I can't fathom anyone walking up to those would-be Bx8's in that scenario... This (comparison) would affect more riders than the Bx8 gets in Locust pt, but it'd be akin to eliminating branching on the Q11 & ending (anything that'd run past Pitkin) to 160th.....

 

You can keep the Bx8 on that part of Bronxwood, but I don't believe for a second that buses (by residents up there) are being used as backup for the Bx31.... If anything, the Bx8 is Bx39 backup b/w [the 220's & Gun Hill] & the usages of the Bx8 & the Bx31 are totally separate from one another.... Williamsbridge isn't anything to write home about in its own right, but the projects is still a large reason for that.... Hate to put it like this, but the Bx8 is seen as the "safe" route up in the northern part of the borough (not so much in terms of personal safety, but in terms of putting up w/ less of the everyday BS)..... If there's any interchangeability (or more to your point, hip-pocketness) going on, it is by ppl. coming off connecting buses (Bx28's, 30's) that are riding down to Westchester Sq....

 

I will get to the other 2 parts of your reply sometime later on.

[B35 via Church]

Okay, so the plan would essentially be:

 

Bx8: Emerson/Harding to Gun Hill Road, doing the Bx42 south of Westchester Square, and the Modified northern Bx8 north of Westchester Square

 

Southern Bx8: Current route up to Westchester Square, then to HMC

 

Bx42: Discontinued

 

Bx40: Increased service for a portion of the route.

The Bx40, period, would get increased service....

(compared to the current Bx40 from end to end which singularly runs every 15-20 mins. IINM)

 

 

Reading this post kinda gave me an idea for what I would do with the Bx8.

 

So, the Bx8 I had envisioned is either:

 

A) From Westchester Square, runs to Gun Hill, takes Gun Hill, then goes up WPR, turns on E 222 Street (acts as a crosstown bus), Laconia Avenue, E 225 Street, then the current Bx31 routing to White Plains Road, and either goes on to Woodlawn or terminates.

B) Same route as A until Gun Hill Road, but continues up Bronxwood, takes 225 Street, goes around Edenwald, following the Bx31 route until WPR.

C) Same route as A until Gun Hill Road, but goes east on Gun Hill, takes Boston Road, up Eastchester Road and follows the Bx31 route until WPR or Woodlawn. 

 

In each scenario though, the Bx31 would be discontinued. The southern portion of the Bx8 could continue up Eastchester Road until Gun Hill, and then run to Bay Plaza, or the eastern Bx21 could run up Eastchester Road to Gun Hill, and then to Bay Plaza, or something else happens. Leaving Eastchester Road with that would be too much of a gap, IMO.

 

Option a] would make the most sense.... if it were to end at the projects.

(only thing with that though is, it would open the door for a 233rd st route)

 

Edenwald (the neighborhood) residents wouldn't need to reverse commute on the (current) Bx31 up to 233rd subway if there was east-west service cutting through Williamsbridge to get to WPR.... Instead of current NB Bx31's tanking out at 233rd subway, your NB Bx8 (considering this option) would have buses practically tanking out at the projects..... Anyone left would likely be seeking service to Mt. Vernon or New Roc' on the BL-42.....

 

My main issue w/ the Bx8 north of GH, is that it provides north-south coverage in Williamsbridge & terminates rather randomly (IMO) at 222nd subway.... East-west coverage b/w WPR & Laconia, at minimum, would easily loom more useful - this is where I'd side w/ a 222nd crosstown, or w/ you wanna call it.... 

[Q43LTD]

Didn't someone wanted a 222 crosstown or a rerouted Bx30 to serve 222?

[B35 via Church]

Didn't someone wanted a 222 crosstown or a rerouted Bx30 to serve 222?

Yeah... the very person that started this thread - Cotb16.

[Q43LTD]

Yeah... the very person that started this thread - Cotb16.

And I believe he wanted the now defunct Bx25 to run on Burke too. About the 30 serving 222... I'm on the fence about that one

[B35 via Church]

And I believe he wanted the now defunct Bx25 to run on Burke too. About the 30 serving 222... I'm on the fence about that one

I want no part of the Bx30 being the 222nd "crosstown"... I'd rather cut the Bx8 back to Gun Hill & leave 222nd w/ nothing, instead of diverting the Bx30 along 222nd & down Gun Hill - to have Bee line solely serve even more of Boston rd.....

 

He also had Bx30's running to the ; although I don't remember what station....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I want no part of the Bx30 being the 222nd "crosstown"... I'd rather cut the Bx8 back to Gun Hill & leave 222nd w/ nothing, instead of diverting the Bx30 along 222nd & down Gun Hill - to have Bee line solely serve even more of Boston rd.....

 

He also had Bx30's running to the ; although I don't remember what station....

I don't know for what.  The people coming from near the train are mainly coming using the Bx10 anyway.  Going from the Northeast Bronx to the Northwest Bronx and areas like Riverdale is almost impossible. It's much easier going into Manhattan and then getting the express bus. Even Google recommends that set up at times.

[RailRunRob]

I don't know for what.  The people coming from near the train are mainly coming using the Bx10 anyway.  Going from the Northeast Bronx to the Northwest Bronx and areas like Riverdale is almost impossible. It's much easier going into Manhattan and then getting the express bus. Even Google recommends that set up at times.

To add to your point geography and the grid makes it hard to do so.  Funny enough the same man that designed my childhood neighborhood also created the master plan for my alma mater and the major Thoroughfare in my current neighborhood. Man that Fedrick Olmsted sure got around! What a throughline.   But essentially you have different grids mashed together. North of Fordham you don't really have any true East-West through routes and even that lines up with Manhattan. The Bronx River, Woodlawn or Van Cortland Park blocks most possibilities.  Gun Hill is prob the closest route to clearing the Bronx fully and it's a major bottleneck. Try driving thru at rush! Then you add bus routes on top of this mess. I don't think it's any way to speed travel up from East to West north of Fordham. McLean or Mosholu are my routes into Riverdale when I travel back not options for the MTA. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Via Garibaldi 8]

To add to your point geography and the grid makes it hard to do so.  Funny enough the same man that designed my childhood neighborhood also created the master plan for my alma mater and the major Thoroughfare in my current neighborhood. Man that Fedrick Olmsted sure got around! What a throughline.   But essentially you have different grids mashed together. North of Fordham you don't really have any true East-West through routes and even that lines up with Manhattan. The Bronx River, Woodlawn or Van Cortland Park blocks most possibilities.  Gun Hill is prob the closest route to clearing the Bronx fully and it's a major bottleneck. Try driving thru at rush! Then you add bus routes on top of this mess. I don't think it's any way to speed travel up from East to West north of Fordham. McLean or Mosholu are my routes into Riverdale when I travel back not options for the MTA. 

Anytime I have to travel to areas in the Eastern part of the Bronx, I go into Manhattan with the express bus and get another express bus back out.  Since Riverdale lacks any true East Side subway that hooks up with the Lex lines, you have to do even more backtracking.  Without the express bus, I would have to take the Bx1 from Riverdale and 231st over to the by Mosholu Parkway, then backtrack on the to 149th street and then make my connection there if it's the .  If it's the I need, then back track to 125th.  If you link up with the express bus, it's a much easier and faster trip, but the quickest that it can be done is maybe in an hour.  30 minutes or so to the Upper East Side and then the transfer at 86th and 3rd.  

 

The other thing that really complicates East-West travel are the crazy hills. They seem to be everywhere, even in areas that appear to relatively flat.  Northeast Bronx comes to mind with some very hilly areas that are just brutal.  Quite frankly, it's one the main reasons that the local buses won't ever see usage decline too much.  You simply can't walk in some areas without laboring, and I find it rather annoying at times since you can be forced to take a bus when you may want to just walk.  

 

Riverdale really doesn't have a street grid, which makes things extremely confusing.  I've had quite a few people become lost on the way to my place, and I had to guide them.  You go from 232nd and Henry Hudson Parkway East to 235th, from 239th to 246th and so on.  Apparently the neighborhood was designed around the sloping rocks and gets its name in part from that and being by the water. I've often wondered if some areas of the Bronx are naturally hilly or did designers have a say in that?  Riverdale is naturally hilly, but the layout purposely doesn't follow a street grid to go along with how the area was naturally before it was developed, hence why there's so many large boulders all about.  In fact there's one right near to where I live that blows me away every time I look at it.  Probably saved us from getting really slammed during Sandy, as all sorts of things were flying about by our balconies.

[Q43LTD]

I want no part of the Bx30 being the 222nd "crosstown"... I'd rather cut the Bx8 back to Gun Hill & leave 222nd w/ nothing, instead of diverting the Bx30 along 222nd & down Gun Hill - to have Bee line solely serve even more of Boston rd.....

 

He also had Bx30's running to the ; although I don't remember what station....

I think it was 225 to serve River Plaza (Target). But it's kind of impossible to do that north of Fordham with VCP blocking the way and having to dip down Sedgwick or Bailey. Anyway the Bx7, 9 and (to a lesser extent) 20 suffice.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think it was 225 to serve River Plaza (Target). But it's kind of impossible to do that north of Fordham with VCP blocking the way and having to dip down Sedgwick or Bailey. Anyway the Bx7, 9 and (to a lesser extent) 20 suffice.

Sad to say it, but the Bx20 is an after thought.  On occasion if I think I'm going to miss the Hudson Raillink, I'll take it down to Independence and Henry Hudson Parkway and walk to the MNRR station, but aside from that, I don't bother with it.  I do like that it starts at 246th and Henry Hudson Parkway though because when I get on it's relatively empty and quick.  It doesn't start to fill up until it reaches Kappock and Knolls Crescent.  It would probably get more ridership if everyone wasn't running to the Bx7 or Bx10, but it does help when the buses are packed to the gills.

 

It also seems to get good usage in Kingsbridge for some odd reason even though it only goes to 207th.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Q43LTD]

Sad to say it, but the Bx20 is an after thought.  On occasion if I think I'm going to miss the Hudson Raillink, I'll take it down to Independence and Henry Hudson Parkway and walk to the MNRR station, but aside from that, I don't bother with it.  I do like that it starts at 246th and Henry Hudson Parkway though because when I get on it's relatively empty and quick.  It doesn't start to fill up until it reaches Kappock and Knolls Crescent.  It would probably get more ridership if everyone wasn't running to the Bx7 or Bx10, but it does help when the buses are packed to the gills.

 

It also seems to get good usage in Kingsbridge for some odd reason even though it only goes to 207th.

The Bx7 is understandable since it gets the at 207. I don't wanna say the Bx20 went downhill in 1995 when it lost Sunday service. The 20 should have gotten back its off-peak service in 2013. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The Bx7 is understandable since it gets the at 207. I don't wanna say the Bx20 went downhill in 1995 when it lost Sunday service. The 20 should have gotten back its off-peak service in 2013. 

There are some down in Spuyten Duyvil who use it (they're the main ones in fact), but in Central Riverdale where I'm at, the Bx7 is used because it skips Spuyten Duyvil entirely.  I think the Bx20 will continue to get whoever tends to use it.  What I find in my area is most are going for the express buses or Metro-North more than anything.  The subway folks tend to go with the Bx7 or the Bx10, and especially the Bx10 because it's much more frequent, with several buses going to 231st before a Bx20 comes. 

 

On weekends though, I don't see the ridership to support the Bx7, Bx10 and Bx20.  I sometimes use the Bx10 along Henry Hudson Parkway to get over to the Spuyten Duyvil station and I find the buses to be rarely crowded.  Usually no standees for the most part.  Out of everything, the express buses see the most use on weekends, since most are going shopping, to Lincoln Center for plays, restaurants and the like in the city.  It's just easier and much nicer to take the express bus.  You even have entire families that take the BxM2 to the museums or Central Park.  Mother and father board with the little ones and the stroller.  There are also folks that come up to visit and they're advised to take the express bus apparently, given the groups that get on. That goes for the elderly too that travel in packs.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

I think it was 225 to serve River Plaza (Target). But it's kind of impossible to do that north of Fordham with VCP blocking the way and having to dip down Sedgwick or Bailey. Anyway the Bx7, 9 and (to a lesser extent) 20 suffice.

Could have been..... All I remember is he went nuts wanting to extend a bunch of routes to 231st/Riverdale av (most of them were the co-op routes)

[bobtehpanda]

Riverdale really doesn't have a street grid, which makes things extremely confusing.  I've had quite a few people become lost on the way to my place, and I had to guide them.  You go from 232nd and Henry Hudson Parkway East to 235th, from 239th to 246th and so on.  Apparently the neighborhood was designed around the sloping rocks and gets its name in part from that and being by the water. I've often wondered if some areas of the Bronx are naturally hilly or did designers have a say in that?

 

Off topic, but the dramatic hills that you see in the Palisades, the Bronx and Upper Manhattan are largely due to glaciers from the last ice age proceeding down towards the south and scraping away at the landscape (and depositing boulders from further north in the area, hence why the parks often have such large boulders.) In fact, those glacial sheets reached about as far as roughly the middle of Long Island, which is why Long Island has a pretty noticeable ridgeline running across the middle.

 

Most of Manhattan actually used to resemble Upper Manhattan in terms of hilliness, but when we decreed the grid we also basically compelled developers to level the land and fill in the streams as well.

Edited July 6, 2017 by bobtehpanda