Fleet Swap Discussion Thread

[darkstar8983]

Just now, JeremiahC99 said:

So how many would be enough to retire the R44 SIR and R46 cars? 1175 cars (this is assuming base order of 535 cars plus first option order of 640 cars)?

 

Also, can 440 60-feet cars alone be enough for the  and Rockaway Park Shuttle alone or will they need more cars?

It would be just enough. Because the R179s are still there

[JeremiahC99]

1 minute ago, darkstar8983 said:

It would be just enough. Because the R179s are still there

But the R179s won't move out of Pitkin because of the R211s?

I'm under the impression that the  would need around 36-38 trains to make the service, so that's why I was thinking the R211s would solely be at Pitkin Yard with the R179s moved out.

Edited January 5, 2021 by JeremiahC99

[Lance]

Rather than quote every response, and because I don't want to be here forever, I'll just respond to the general points made.

Delaying Queens Blvd CBTC is a definite non-starter. The MTA spent a lot of money installing this new signal system on the line and it's in no way cost effective to maintain two signal setups while they wait for a sufficient number of new NTTs to be operable. 46s running on any of the Queens Blvd line long-term is pretty much a thing of the past at this point. As for delays on the other two capable lines, Canarsie was delayed due to a lack of available compatible trains The 42s weren't booted off the L line until mid-2007 and even then, the A1s that replaced them weren't CBTC-compatible until 2010. The issues that delayed full implementation on the Flushing line were more technical than anything else, but were also in part caused by problems with the trains themselves. We all recall those constant signal problems on the 7 line in the lead up to the transition.

In terms of train reliability, yes there was an uptick in reliability on the 32s when they were briefly pressed back into active service (and please spare the semantics on whether the trains are in storage or are semi-retired, they're currently not part of the general car requirements either way), they were out of service entirely for a few months before the 179s were forced out of service necessitating the 32s' return. It's not really that surprising that trains not in regular service might perform better than trains that see service almost every day like the 46s. And to take one of the suggestions to put them into service during rush hours only, it doesn't negate the fact they're limited from running on a lot of lines right now. They can't run on any of the Queens Blvd routes due to CBTC, so the E, F and R are out. The C is also out because it's a fully underground route that will risk overheating the HVACs. While this is another instance where the MTA shot itself in the foot, the repairs on the Montague tunnel mean the 32s also cannot run on any of the Broadway lines anymore. Realistically, that only leaves the A, B, G and J as suitable candidates for the 32s to displace some other trains around.

As for the incoming 211s, that order, at least the base order itself, is still on track. The options may be delayed due to the pandemic and issues with funding, but the base order was already budgeted into the last capital plan and is not affected. If all goes well, that should be able to replace some of the worst-performing cars in service right now. Of course, the delays don't help matters as it will likely take a year once the test train arrives before they start accepting cars en masse, if we go by the previous car orders as an example. We do need those options funded as well obviously, but I honestly can't see that happening right now. Ridership needs to bounce back significantly from their still incredible lows to generate some of that lost revenue. I say that because I don't think the MTA can use the stimulus funds to pay for those new cars while so many other transit agencies need support as well just to operate. We'll see obviously.

And to answer the question above this post, the A currently requires 38 - 40 trains at the height of the rush hours while the Rockaway Park shuttle uses three short trains. If the base order directly replaces the 46s there, that'd be 270 cars to the A and 15 to the shuttle, leaving 155 to be placed elsewhere. Of course, this assumes no service expansions anywhere or any problems with any of the new cars, but that's to be expected given the circumstances.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Lance, stimulus money would go for operations and personnel, of course. Wouldn’t this then allow the MTA to “flex” other money already allocated for operations to go to capital purchases, such R211 option orders and CBTC-related work elsewhere in the system? I do have a tendency to see subway cars, tracks and signals as key to well-run operations, thus I tend to think of them as part of “operations,” and thus, should be treated as such. It’s reassuring (somewhat) that the base R211 order of 535 cars is already paid for from the last budget and can go toward replacing the worst performing R46s. Assuming R211S’s are still part of the base order, that means we will have more than half the 46 fleet still in service once the entire base order is delivered, assuming option orders aren’t exercised.

Edited January 5, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[R32 3838]

from what i heard the base order is ether a 3 way split between Pitkin,Jamaica and CI or just pitkin and jamaica.

 

I really don't see the need for these cars at CI since these R211's are built for high ridership in mind, BMT doesn't carry as much as the IND (the is the only high ridership BMT line with the before the pandemic post 2nd ave opening being the 2nd.)

lines like the needs these cars way more than any other line. the also needs these cars.

the cars are coming in with CBTC kits installed already. It would be very dumb to put subway cars with 58 inch doors on the vs. the and lines.

CI could get the siemens back from jamaica.

 

If were smart they should use some of that stimulus money to atleast do option order I so this way CI can kill off their remaining R46's and Pitkin could retire more r46's.

 

CI don't need new cars even if they have the R46's, they got the R68's and R160's brand new. and if anything CI (mainly broadway) will be nothing but R68's since 6th ave CBTC is after 8th ave or lexington. so the will have to get tech trains.

Edited January 6, 2021 by R32 3838

[darkstar8983]

47 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

from what i heard the base order is ether a 3 way split between Pitkin,Jamaica and CI or just pitkin and jamaica.

 

I really don't see the need for these cars at CI since these R211's are built for high ridership in mind, BMT doesn't carry as much as the IND (the is the only high ridership BMT line with the before the pandemic post 2nd ave opening being the 2nd.)

lines like the needs these cars way more than any other line. the also needs these cars.

the cars are coming in with CBTC kits installed already. It would be very dumb to put subway cars with 58 inch doors on the vs. the and lines.

CI could get the siemens back from jamaica.

 

If were smart they should use some of that stimulus money to atleast do option order I so this way CI can kill off their remaining R46's and Pitkin could retire more r46's.

 

CI don't need new cars even if they have the R46's, they got the R68's and R160's brand new. and if anything CI (mainly broadway) will be nothing but R68's since 6th ave CBTC is after 8th ave or lexington. so the will have to get tech trains.

1. 6th Avenue CBTC has been pushed back, with Lexington, Fulton, Crosstown and Astoria being pushed ahead.

2. The base order sounds better on the  and  and I do see the pushing out of some R160s from Jamaica. 

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

from what i heard the base order is ether a 3 way split between Pitkin,Jamaica and CI or just pitkin and jamaica.

 

I really don't see the need for these cars at CI since these R211's are built for high ridership in mind, BMT doesn't carry as much as the IND (the is the only high ridership BMT line with the before the pandemic post 2nd ave opening being the 2nd.)

lines like the needs these cars way more than any other line. the also needs these cars.

the cars are coming in with CBTC kits installed already. It would be very dumb to put subway cars with 58 inch doors on the vs. the and lines.

CI could get the siemens back from jamaica.

 

If were smart they should use some of that stimulus money to atleast do option order I so this way CI can kill off their remaining R46's and Pitkin could retire more r46's.

 

CI don't need new cars even if they have the R46's, they got the R68's and R160's brand new. and if anything CI (mainly broadway) will be nothing but R68's since 6th ave CBTC is after 8th ave or lexington. so the will have to get tech trains.

Hold up. Isn't  Crosstown Line CBTC on the table too? Wouldn't it also make sense for the Coney Island to get R211s as well so that CBTC there can be used with brand new cars?

Perhaps we could do:

• Base order (440 cars)
  • : 290 cars 
  • : 150 cars 
• Option order (640 cars)
  • : 260 cars
  • : 380 cars
• Following moves:
  • R46:
    • 232 cars retired from
    • 122 cars reassigned to  until retirement
    • 120 R46 cars retired from  following base order
    • 276 R46 cars retired from  following option order
  • R160 8843-9102: -> . 
  • R179 3150-3237:  -> .

 

Hate to make predictions, but it doesn't hurt to try.

Edited January 6, 2021 by JeremiahC99

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

1. 6th Avenue CBTC has been pushed back, with Lexington, Fulton, Crosstown and Astoria being pushed ahead.

2. The base order sounds better on the  and  and I do see the pushing out of some R160s from Jamaica. 

Astoria CBTC is a waste of time, I can understand 6th ave, Fulton and lexington pushed back tho. crosstown should have been apart of the culver cbtc project.

 

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Hold up. Isn't  Crosstown Line CBTC on the table too? Wouldn't it also make sense for the Coney Island to get R211s as well so that CBTC there can be used with brand new cars?

Perhaps we could do:

• Base order (440 cars)
  • : 290 cars 
  • : 150 cars 
• Option order (640 cars)
  • : 260 cars
  • : 380 cars
• Following moves:
  • R46:
    • 232 cars retired from
    • 122 cars reassigned to  until retirement
    • 120 R46 cars retired from  following base order
    • 276 R46 cars retired from  following option order
  • R160 8843-9102: -> . 
  • R179 3150-3237:  -> .

I don't think the siemens are going to pitkin or 207th, They'll go back to CI.

We don't know if we are getting the option order cars. Since the r160's have CBTC in them, some of them can go back to CI. The R211's should be on lines that have the heaviest ridership like the lines and by default the R211's will have CBTC kits by default instead of coming in without them and having them installed later on on NYCT property years later.

if the base is a 3 way split then

Jamaica would get 160 R211's to push out 160 siemens r160's, 9823-9922 would go back to jamaica for the remaining siemens (this would allow CI to lose 26 R46 sets in total)

CI would get 160 R211's for the to push out 16 more of R46 sets at CI with 7.5 r46 sets remaining (these can be only used on the )

Pitkin would get 120 R211's to push 96 R46's to the (making the 100% full length to push out the 8 car R179's to CI or ENY. There's 9.5 trains worth of r160's on the left over since the has 8313-8608 as a group for queens CBTC. (8609-8652,9943-74) are the leftover R160's that could be used for the but in 4 car sets but wouldn't be enough to run full 8 car trains , even with a service reduction to justify 8 car trains, still wouldn't be enough since you need a spare factor, with it being 4 car r160's you'll have a decent spare factor. this would kill off the remaining r46's.

I think pitkin would get these first just to make the full length of r46's, then Jamaica then CI.

 

the open gangway cars are a toss up between jamaica and pitkin, rumors are leaning towards pitkin. but they'll test them on the as well.

but this is just speculation but this would make the most sense.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by R32 3838

[Around the Horn]

5 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

the cars are coming in with CBTC kits installed already. It would be very dumb to put subway cars with 58 inch doors on the vs. the and lines.

CI could get the siemens back from jamaica.

Well about that story...

4 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Hold up. Isn't  Crosstown Line CBTC on the table too? Wouldn't it also make sense for the Coney Island to get R211s as well so that CBTC there can be used with brand new cars?

Perhaps we could do:

• Base order (440 cars)
  • : 290 cars 
  • : 150 cars 
• Option order (640 cars)
  • : 260 cars
  • : 380 cars
• Following moves:
  • R46:
    • 232 cars retired from
    • 122 cars reassigned to  until retirement
    • 120 R46 cars retired from  following base order
    • 276 R46 cars retired from  following option order
  • R160 8843-9102: -> . 
  • R179 3150-3237:  -> .

 

Hate to make predictions, but it doesn't hurt to try.

this is not that far off from pre-pandemic...

[Lawrence St]

4 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

1. 6th Avenue CBTC has been pushed back, with Lexington, Fulton, Crosstown and Astoria being pushed ahead.

2. The base order sounds better on the  and  and I do see the pushing out of some R160s from Jamaica. 

Oh? Do I hear R142A trains in our future? 👀👀

[darkstar8983]

3 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

Astoria CBTC is a waste of time, I can understand 6th ave, Fulton and lexington pushed back tho. crosstown should have been apart of the culver cbtc project.

 

I don't think the siemens are going to pitkin or 207th, They'll go back to CI.

We don't know if we are getting the option order cars. Since the r160's have CBTC in them, some of them can go back to CI. The R211's should be on lines that have the heaviest ridership like the lines and by default the R211's will have CBTC kits by default instead of coming in without them and having them installed later on on NYCT property years later.

if the base is a 3 way split then

Jamaica would get 160 R211's to push out 160 siemens r160's, 9823-9922 would go back to jamaica for the remaining siemens (this would allow CI to lose 26 R46 sets in total)

CI would get 160 R211's for the to push out 16 more of R46 sets at CI with 7.5 r46 sets remaining (these can be only used on the )

Pitkin would get 120 R211's to push 96 R46's to the (making the 100% full length to push out the 8 car R179's to CI or ENY. There's 9.5 trains worth of r160's on the left over since the has 8313-8608 as a group for queens CBTC. (8609-8652,9943-74) are the leftover R160's that could be used for the but in 4 car sets but wouldn't be enough to run full 8 car trains , even with a service reduction to justify 8 car trains, still wouldn't be enough since you need a spare factor, with it being 4 car r160's you'll have a decent spare factor. this would kill off the remaining r46's.

I think pitkin would get these first just to make the full length of r46's, then Jamaica then CI.

 

the open gangway cars are a toss up between jamaica and pitkin, rumors are leaning towards pitkin. but they'll test them on the as well.

but this is just speculation but this would make the most sense.

 

 

 

 

Astoria CBTC is not a waste of time, because of several issues

1. the 60 St tunnel and Broadway line between the 11 St cut and 57 St-7 Av has a capacity of only 23 trains per hour due to the sharp curve between 5 Av-59 St and 57 St-7 Av and slow speed restrictions in the area. 9-10 of those slots are already taken up by the , and cannot be reduced because of the service level needed for Bay Ridge.

2. Ditmars Blvd can only process a maximum 14 trains per hour due to signaling constraints left by a fixed block system and the large space between Ditmars and the crossovers which are woefully inefficient in practice, and there is no efficient secondary terminal that can handle “overflow”

a. The  has 179 St and would only affect service frequency at Jamaica Center, Sutphin Blvd, and Jamaica-Van Wyck

 b. The  has Parchester, only limiting service frequency between there and Pelham Bay Park 

c. The  and trains have 238 St, only affecting service at the terminal

 

In situations such as the above, rush hour put-ins still serve the majority of the stations along the line in the outer borough, even though the terminal doesn’t process the full frequency of the service. The only “way” the  has to deal with overflow is to send trains up to 96 St, because discharging at Queensboro Plaza is a disaster in practice, or sending the train to Astoria Blvd via Astoria Express doesn’t help with the ridership. The potential “extra trains” would only benefit Queensboro Plaza, or maybe one extra train at Astoria Blvd only, but that’s it. Astoria is literally capped at how many trains can run on the line.

And my personal take on the base order of R211s, I think they’ll go to only one yard first. Why have more oddball fleets for all yards with just the base order

Edited January 6, 2021 by darkstar8983

[R32 3838]

3 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Well about that story...

this is not that far off from pre-pandemic...

They weren't gonna put R211's on the , The plan is to put the 8 car R179's for crosstown CBTC, this is what was put in the document for the potential R179 CBTC upgrade. (this might change due to the pandemic and other things)

 

the only way Jamaica won't get the R211's is if they changed the Specs and took out the CBTC kit part (they'll install on on TA property) which i doubt they changed that part.

we all know jamaica would be losing some r160's, I hardly doubt they would move the siemens to pitkin or 207th (I heard this rumor) but it wouldn't make any sense because now they have to deal with 3 different car types with 3 different propulsion systems.

 

even if coney gets some of the base order, Coney Island wouldn't get a very large amount (Option orders included), they would get the smallest amount with pitkin and Jamaica getting the largest amounts if all options were taken. hell I think Concourse would get a chunk since the is the only line that hasn't gotten anything new since 1989 and that line needs cars like this badly.

the folks at 2 broadway aren't that dumb to pass these cars up on the most busiest lines in the B division

 

giving CI are large amount would be very very dumb, none of their lines have high ridership as the IND with the exception of the post 96th st and pre pandemic .Why do you think the Lex was 100% R142's?

Jamaica being 100% R160 is just a hold over until these cars come in to train and get people ready for CBTC.

1 minute ago, darkstar8983 said:

Astoria CBTC is not a waste of time, because of several issues

1. the 60 St tunnel and Broadway line between the 11 St cut and 57 St-7 Av has a capacity of only 23 trains per hour due to the sharp curve between 5 Av-59 St and 57 St-7 Av and slow speed restrictions in the area. 9-10 of those slots are already taken up by the , and cannot be reduced because of the service level needed for Bay Ridge.

2. Ditmars Blvd can only process a maximum 14 trains per hour due to signaling constraints left by a fixed block system and the large space between Ditmars and the crossovers which are woefully inefficient in practice, and there is no efficient secondary terminal that can handle “overflow”

a. The  has 179 St and would only affect service frequency at Jamaica Center, Sutphin Blvd, and Jamaica-Van Wyck

 b. The  has Parchester, only limiting service frequency between there and Pelham Bay Park 

c. The  and trains have 238 St, only affecting service at the terminal

 

In situations such as the above, rush hour put-ins still serve the majority of the stations along the line in the outer borough, even though the terminal doesn’t process the full frequency of the service. The only “way” the  has to deal with overflow is to send trains up to 96 St, because discharging at Queensboro Plaza is a disaster in practice, or sending the train to Astoria Blvd via Astoria Express doesn’t help with the ridership. The potential “extra trains” would only benefit Queensboro Plaza, or maybe one extra train at Astoria Blvd only, but that’s it. Astoria is literally capped at how many trains can run on the line.

And my personal take on the base order of R211s, I think they’ll go to only one yard first. Why have more oddball fleets for all yards with just the base order

It's a waste when the lexington which is the most busiest line in the system should be the next in line. CBTC wouldn't help 60th st tube at all, If they were doing Broadway and astoria then I would agree, Its a waste because you only doing one section of the line instead of doing the entire Broadway line. the is already gonna be CBTC in queens, mind as well make the whole Broadway line CBTC along with 2nd ave and astoria.

 

can't send the R211's to 1 yard since they have to start retiring the R46's, CI's would be the first to go since it's easier to yeet those first, I wouldn't mind pitkin getting the entire order since the would be 100% tech but it's a toss up. I rather just ether jamaica and pitkin or it being split in 3 ways while waiting to see if we get an option order.

 

5 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Oh? Do I hear R142A trains in our future? 👀👀

the R142's would go to the when the r262's replace the R62/62A's. the would be the one with the mixture of r142/142A. Also this would likely move the to 207th st inspection barn unless they completely rebuild 240th st barn from the ground up. They had this plan to move all of the inspection work to pitkin yard while 207th barn would be for the fleet while 240th barn would be torn down. I don't know if they are still going with that plan, but this was taked about 11 years ago.

[Lawrence St]

@R32 3838 why is the (1) getting R142's? If anything it should be getting part of the R262 order, since its the 2nd busiest Manhattan local line after the (6) . 

[R32 3838]

18 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

@R32 3838 why is the getting R142's? If anything it should be getting part of the R262 order, since its the 2nd busiest Manhattan local line after the . 

lexington CBTC plus these cars are slated to have open gangway. As much as I would like to see these on the , it would make better sense to have the Newer fleet (if we ever get them) on the with some on the

 

but obviously this is all subject to change since is way to early to tell.

[darkstar8983]

2 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

They weren't gonna put R211's on the , The plan is to put the 8 car R179's for crosstown CBTC, this is what was put in the document for the potential R179 CBTC upgrade. (this might change due to the pandemic and other things)

 

the only way Jamaica won't get the R211's is if they changed the Specs and took out the CBTC kit part (they'll install on on TA property) which i doubt they changed that part.

we all know jamaica would be losing some r160's, I hardly doubt they would move the siemens to pitkin or 207th (I heard this rumor) but it wouldn't make any sense because now they have to deal with 3 different car types with 3 different propulsion systems.

 

even if coney gets some of the base order, Coney Island wouldn't get a very large amount (Option orders included), they would get the smallest amount with pitkin and Jamaica getting the largest amounts if all options were taken. hell I think Concourse would get a chunk since the is the only line that hasn't gotten anything new since 1989 and that line needs cars like this badly.

the folks at 2 broadway aren't that dumb to pass these cars up on the most busiest lines in the B division

 

giving CI are large amount would be very very dumb, none of their lines have high ridership as the IND with the exception of the post 96th st and pre pandemic .Why do you think the Lex was 100% R142's?

Jamaica being 100% R160 is just a hold over until these cars come in to train and get people ready for CBTC.

It's a waste when the lexington which is the most busiest line in the system should be the next in line. CBTC wouldn't help 60th st tube at all, If they were doing Broadway and astoria then I would agree, Its a waste because you only doing one section of the line instead of doing the entire Broadway line. the is already gonna be CBTC in queens, mind as well make the whole Broadway line CBTC along with 2nd ave and astoria.

 

can't send the R211's to 1 yard since they have to start retiring the R46's, CI's would be the first to go since it's easier to yeet those first, I wouldn't mind pitkin getting the entire order since the would be 100% tech but it's a toss up. I rather just ether jamaica and pitkin or it being split in 3 ways while waiting to see if we get an option order.

 

the R142's would go to the when the r262's replace the R62/62A's. the would be the one with the mixture of r142/142A. Also this would likely move the to 207th st inspection barn unless they completely rebuild 240th st barn from the ground up. They had this plan to move all of the inspection work to pitkin yard while 207th barn would be for the fleet while 240th barn would be torn down. I don't know if they are still going with that plan, but this was taked about 11 years ago.

1. CBTC on Astoria really means Astoria-Ditmars Blvd to 57 St-7 Av (including the tunnel), which could be a service benefit for the  . If we consider other constraints (such as the Broadway Express + Dekalb Avenue interlocking, meaning the number of trains that can run), this can be adjusted afterwards by sending overflow  trains to 2 Av and replacing them with additional trains to Astoria. This way, both the Second Avenue and Astoria branches have service increases.   

2. Lower Manhattan Broadway still has room for Six additional trains per hour (even under its current signal system), and is therefore not a high priority.

3. DEFINITELY agree that Lexington Av CBTC has to be done ASAP

4. DEFINITELY agree that the Coney Island R46s have to retire YESTERDAY! But the R211 order is appearing to be speculated to retire the R46s indirectly from Coney Island by shifting some R160s out of Jamaica (this will mean that YES Jamaica will go back to having two car classes to maintain, but thats the reality in most B-Division Yards).

5. Crosstown CBTC with the R179s would mean that even more than the speculated 32 R211s ordered in 4-car sets would be needed to fill up the again, because it is assumed that ALL the R179s in 4-car sets would be needed. Only 188 cars are available = 23.5 trains, while the would use 13-14 trains in a daily rotation + 6 CBTC spares. This would leave only four R179 train-sets free for the , along with the 9 R160A-1s free. This also brings to light the issue of having oddball fleets.   

Edited January 6, 2021 by darkstar8983

[Jemorie]

10 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

from what i heard the base order is ether a 3 way split between Pitkin,Jamaica and CI or just pitkin and jamaica.

 

I really don't see the need for these cars at CI since these R211's are built for high ridership in mind, BMT doesn't carry as much as the IND (the is the only high ridership BMT line with the before the pandemic post 2nd ave opening being the 2nd.)

lines like the needs these cars way more than any other line. the also needs these cars.

the cars are coming in with CBTC kits installed already. It would be very dumb to put subway cars with 58 inch doors on the vs. the and lines.

CI could get the siemens back from jamaica.

 

If were smart they should use some of that stimulus money to atleast do option order I so this way CI can kill off their remaining R46's and Pitkin could retire more r46's.

 

CI don't need new cars even if they have the R46's, they got the R68's and R160's brand new. and if anything CI (mainly broadway) will be nothing but R68's since 6th ave CBTC is after 8th ave or lexington. so the will have to get tech trains.

I noticed you’re literally the only one I know that yammers every now and then about “tHe N AnD w TrAiNs dOnt NeEd ThE R211s” schmuck. I think you just want to see the  and  get the short end of the stick while everyone else is happy.

I hope you know that the R160s that were recently equipped with CBTC are mainly for Queens Blvd. It’s similar as to how the majority of the R143s are on the  mainly for CBTC on the Canarsie Line. Remember that CBTC is a signaling system that ages. So why would they send selected R160s back to Coney Island for? When CBTC on the BMT South Brooklyn lines probably wouldn’t be finish by the time the R211s get here? They’re not going to send them back to Coney Island because then the swap would be pointless to begin with, which proves that those 45-year old junks should have stayed on the  until retirement.

The base order would be a three-way split? Yeah I don’t see that happening either. Maybe a two-way split, sure, but not a three-way split.

The  doesn’t need the R211s either. Just because it had R68s as its mainstay fleet for decades does not mean it should get the R211s because “iT NeEds NeW cArS”. It’s really only the  that I see getting most of the base order to cover up its entire fleet while the remaining leftover of the base order goes to Coney Island. So take that from what you will.

And lastly, all of the 5-car R179s should go to Coney Island for the , not the 4-car sets. Remember the  has been 300 feet long for about two decades now since the former  was introduced in late 2001. The base order of the R211s can easily cover up the entire  fleet.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Jemorie

[Jemorie]

2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

5. Crosstown CBTC with the R179s would mean that even more than the speculated 32 R211s ordered in 4-car sets would be needed to fill up the again, because it is assumed that ALL the R179s in 4-car sets would be needed. Only 188 cars are available = 23.5 trains, while the would use 13-14 trains in a daily rotation + 6 CBTC spares. This would leave only four R179 train-sets free for the , along with the 9 R160A-1s free. This also brings to light the issue of having oddball fleets.   

All of the 5-car sets (those 130 cars) should be on the , not the 4-car sets. All of the 4-car sets (those 188 cars) should be at ENY and mainly used for the . That way, the R143s and the R160s would be only for the  and  respectively. Those new strip maps that they installed for the R143s are pointless especially since it only serves as an excuse for them to continue running the R143s on the  when they should only be exclusively limited to the  due to the age of the CBTC equipped on those cars and the age of the CBTC equipped on the Canarsie Line.

There will be enough R211s to cover both the  and  fleets in the foreseeable future. Let’s hope that the option order cars get paid sooner or later. That way, the  would no longer be 480 feet long ever again.

[R32 3838]

3 hours ago, Jemorie said:

I noticed you’re literally the only one I know that yammers every now and then about “tHe N AnD w TrAiNs dOnt NeEd ThE R211s” schmuck. I think you just want to see the  and  get the short end of the stick while everyone else is happy.

I hope you know that the R160s that were recently equipped with CBTC are mainly for Queens Blvd. It’s similar as to how the majority of the R143s are on the  mainly for CBTC on the Canarsie Line. Remember that CBTC is a signaling system that ages. So why would they send selected R160s back to Coney Island for? When CBTC on the BMT South Brooklyn lines probably wouldn’t be finish by the time the R211s get here? They’re not going to send them back to Coney Island because then the swap would be pointless to begin with, which proves that those 45-year old junks should have stayed on the  until retirement.

The base order would be a three-way split? Yeah I don’t see that happening either. Maybe a two-way split, sure, but not a three-way split.

The  doesn’t need the R211s either. Just because it had R68s as its mainstay fleet for decades does not mean it should get the R211s because “iT NeEds NeW cArS”. It’s really only the  that I see getting most of the base order to cover up its entire fleet while the remaining leftover of the base order goes to Coney Island. So take that from what you will.

And lastly, all of the 5-car R179s should go to Coney Island for the , not the 4-car sets. Remember the  has been 300 feet long for about two decades now since the former  was introduced in late 2001. The base order of the R211s can easily cover up the entire  fleet.

how I want the to get the short hand of the stick?

 

do you realize that for the first 3 years of the r160's being delivered I watched the get brand new cars while the   got the biggest middle finger by getting leftovers. It took them 3 years to get the R160's when they should have been the first to get em (back then I would have been pissed, But looking at it now It would have made sense)

Jamaica Being all R160's is a Place holder, Why in the Blue Hell would they want to make open gangway R211's (if the option orders are set in place) and not put em on the lines? They Are coming in with CBTC on top of very large doors.

 

the do not need new cars, it doesn't make any sense giving them new cars when they had r160's for the past 15 years before this dumb swap ( for the first 2 years 2008-2010, 2016-present).

If CI gets the R211's, The should be the one to get em not the

 

I'm sick of this Coney Island should get the newest toys. They got the r68's and R160's brand new and first.

and there wouldn't be enough 10 car R179's for the since it uses 13 sets, the plan is to make the 8 cars not 10.

 

5 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

1. CBTC on Astoria really means Astoria-Ditmars Blvd to 57 St-7 Av (including the tunnel), which could be a service benefit for the  . If we consider other constraints (such as the Broadway Express + Dekalb Avenue interlocking, meaning the number of trains that can run), this can be adjusted afterwards by sending overflow  trains to 2 Av and replacing them with additional trains to Astoria. This way, both the Second Avenue and Astoria branches have service increases.   

2. Lower Manhattan Broadway still has room for Six additional trains per hour (even under its current signal system), and is therefore not a high priority.

3. DEFINITELY agree that Lexington Av CBTC has to be done ASAP

4. DEFINITELY agree that the Coney Island R46s have to retire YESTERDAY! But the R211 order is appearing to be speculated to retire the R46s indirectly from Coney Island by shifting some R160s out of Jamaica (this will mean that YES Jamaica will go back to having two car classes to maintain, but thats the reality in most B-Division Yards).

5. Crosstown CBTC with the R179s would mean that even more than the speculated 32 R211s ordered in 4-car sets would be needed to fill up the again, because it is assumed that ALL the R179s in 4-car sets would be needed. Only 188 cars are available = 23.5 trains, while the would use 13-14 trains in a daily rotation + 6 CBTC spares. This would leave only four R179 train-sets free for the , along with the 9 R160A-1s free. This also brings to light the issue of having oddball fleets.   

 

I always said the should go to 96th while the would go to queens, this way there wouldn't be any switching at all. have both the express from 57th to canal. have every other go down to 95th st to help out the during the Rush hours.

[Jemorie]

6 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

how I want the to get the short hand of the stick?

 

do you realize that for the first 3 years of the r160's being delivered I watched the get brand new cars while the   got the biggest middle finger by getting leftovers. It took them 3 years to get the R160's when they should have been the first to get em (back then I would have been pissed, But looking at it now It would have made sense)

Jamaica Being all R160's is a Place holder, Why in the Blue Hell would they want to make open gangway R211's (if the option orders are set in place) and not put em on the lines? They Are coming in with CBTC on top of very large doors.

 

the do not need new cars, it doesn't make any sense giving them new cars when they had r160's for the past 15 years before this dumb swap ( for the first 2 years 2008-2010, 2016-present).

If CI gets the R211's, The should be the one to get em not the

 

I'm sick of this Coney Island should get the newest toys. They got the r68's and R160's brand new and first.

and there wouldn't be enough 10 car R179's for the since it uses 13 sets, the plan is to make the 8 cars not 10.

Lol, learn how to read. I never said anything about making the  10-cars permanently. And there is no plan to make it 8-cars either. The  will continue to stay 300 feet long. There will be enough R179s to fully cover the whole  fleet. Hence my proposal to have all the 5-car R179s on the .

The rest of your post is just you repeating the same Captain Obvious “tHe N aNd W wILl NoT gEt ThE nEW cArS” schmuck. So take that from what you will. The  and , like the  and , share the same terminal and yard anyway. That’s the only reason why the  and  got the R160s back in the R160-phase in heyday. The  will fully shine once the R211s get here. And if the R160s from Jamaica go back to Coney Island for the  and , fine, but no more junky old cars, especially the 75 footers.

Lol anyway, at least one thing you and I both can agree on (and rightfully so) is that this Jamaica/Coney Island swap thing really is retarded.

[darkstar8983]

18 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

how I want the to get the short hand of the stick?

 

do you realize that for the first 3 years of the r160's being delivered I watched the get brand new cars while the   got the biggest middle finger by getting leftovers. It took them 3 years to get the R160's when they should have been the first to get em (back then I would have been pissed, But looking at it now It would have made sense)

Jamaica Being all R160's is a Place holder, Why in the Blue Hell would they want to make open gangway R211's (if the option orders are set in place) and not put em on the lines? They Are coming in with CBTC on top of very large doors.

 

the do not need new cars, it doesn't make any sense giving them new cars when they had r160's for the past 15 years before this dumb swap ( for the first 2 years 2008-2010, 2016-present).

If CI gets the R211's, The should be the one to get em not the

 

I'm sick of this Coney Island should get the newest toys. They got the r68's and R160's brand new and first.

and there wouldn't be enough 10 car R179's for the since it uses 13 sets, the plan is to make the 8 cars not 10.

 

 

I always said the should go to 96th while the would go to queens, this way there wouldn't be any switching at all. have both the express from 57th to canal. have every other go down to 95th st to help out the during the Rush hours.

Clearly you've never seen the disaster of operations that is Ditmars Blvd. When a train pulls in, there is a 25- 50% chance that it has to be changed over from the  to the  and vice versa. During rush hours, there are SCHEDULED changeovers, so when there is an issue, the amount of switching is absurd. When signs have to be changed on the R68s (which now appears to be ~30% of the fleet), riders are confused all through the line until 34 St which train they are on, because sometimes JUST the front bullet will be changed, but the roll signs on the sides of the cars are NOT changed. You can have a train that says  Astoria-Ditmars Blvd / Lower Manhattan-Whitehall St on all of its signs AND the rear signs, but really be the  because the single front sign says so. The R46 LCD displays don't work over half the time, when I see the trains pass by (another ~45% of the fleet). When the MTA was in Phase 1 of re-opening after COVID-19 started, it was easier since the trains were for some miraculous reason making it to the end of the line on-time, giving the operators and conductors at least a FULL TWO MINUTES to change all the signs, but now trains arrive late and the dispatcher contradicts herself. 

Example: 

An R68A  pulled in and had to be changed over to the , and sent out as the . Then a second R68 showed up as the  and had to be changed over to the  (two consecutive trains), where the practical solution would have been to hold the first train until the  showed up (which was not even 90 seconds later. 

Also, there seems to be discrimination against running too many R46s (outside rush hours), which is understandable. 

 

*And don't get me started on what has happened when one track at Ditmars Blvd is blocked because an R46 has to be pulled because of a mechanical issue. Literally every train that pulls in between the breakdown time and the time it takes to get the troubled train out of the way and freeing up the second track, EVERY train that pulls in has to get its roll signs changed. And all this is going on the assumption that the PA system works (which is debatable). When I've had R46 s or s stop at my stop and I'm waiting for my train on the platform, I can barely hear the conductor.

 

All of this is not even considering the fact that therefore, the trains would leave Ditmars already LATE on their southbound trips because of the sign fiascos and incompetent dispatcher. And an all-R46 fleet doesn't work in practice because of the sign issues again, and the fact that trains on these two routes rack up way too much mileage and very small break-times between runs (if any).

Edited January 6, 2021 by darkstar8983

[Jemorie]

18 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

Clearly you've never seen the disaster of operations that is Ditmars Blvd. When a train pulls in, there is a 25- 50% chance that it has to be changed over from the  to the  and vice versa. During rush hours, there are SCHEDULED changeovers, so when there is an issue, the amount of switching is absurd. When signs have to be changed on the R68s (which now appears to be ~30% of the fleet), riders are confused all through the line until 34 St which train they are on, because sometimes JUST the front bullet will be changed, but the roll signs on the sides of the cars are NOT changed. You can have a train that says  Astoria-Ditmars Blvd / Lower Manhattan-Whitehall St on all of its signs AND the rear signs, but really be the  because the single front sign says so. The R46 LCD displays don't work over half the time, when I see the trains pass by (another ~45% of the fleet). When the MTA was in Phase 1 of re-opening after COVID-19 started, it was easier since the trains were for some miraculous reason making it to the end of the line on-time, giving the operators and conductors at least a FULL TWO MINUTES to change all the signs, but now trains arrive late and the dispatcher contradicts herself. 

Example: 

An R68A  pulled in and had to be changed over to the , and sent out as the . Then a second R68 showed up as the  and had to be changed over to the  (two consecutive trains), where the practical solution would have been to hold the first train until the  showed up (which was not even 90 seconds later. 

Also, there seems to be discrimination against running too many R46s (outside rush hours), which is understandable. 

 

All of this is not even considering the fact that therefore, the trains would leave Ditmars already LATE on their southbound trips because of the sign fiascos and incompetent dispatcher. And an all-R46 fleet doesn't work in practice because of the sign issues again, and the fact that trains on these two routes rack up way too much mileage and very small break-times between runs (if any).

Don’t worry. Anybody who says that the  should have gotten the R160s back then instead of the  and  clearly have no idea what they’re talking about.

That’s why I had to call him out lol. But nevertheless, I agree with everything you said. I’ve seen it all myself as well. It truly amazes me how some people on this forum praise some of the irresponsibilities within the  and think we cannot criticize them for it.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Jemorie

[R32 3838]

2 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

Lol, learn how to read. I never said anything about making the  10-cars permanently. And there is no plan to make it 8-cars either. The  will continue to stay 300 feet long. There will be enough R179s to fully cover the whole  fleet. Hence my proposal to have all the 5-car R179s on the .

The rest of your post is just you repeating the same Captain Obvious “tHe N aNd W wILl NoT gEt ThE nEW cArS” schmuck. So take that from what you will. The  and , like the  and , share the same terminal and yard anyway. That’s the only reason why the  and  got the R160s back in the R160-phase in heyday. The  will fully shine once the R211s get here. And if the R160s from Jamaica go back to Coney Island for the  and , fine, but no more junky old cars, especially the 75 footers.

Lol anyway, at least one thing you and I both can agree on (and rightfully so) is that this Jamaica/Coney Island swap thing really is retarded.

Between 2006-2008 the R160's were only on the then the got them then the around the same time in 2008. withe the being still mostly R68.

 

yea i'm not a fan of this swap at all, but they wanted to have CBTC active as soon as possible. The Only reason why i said a 3 way split with the R211's is because we don't know if we will see an option order. If we get the option order then I would give CI half of the Base order and Jamaica and pitkin the rest of the option orders.

They're better off keeping the 100% 75 footers then giving it 5 car R179's, it wouldn't make sense to have the lose the R179's unless the 8 car units go to CI for the

7 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

Clearly you've never seen the disaster of operations that is Ditmars Blvd. When a train pulls in, there is a 25- 50% chance that it has to be changed over from the  to the  and vice versa. During rush hours, there are SCHEDULED changeovers, so when there is an issue, the amount of switching is absurd. When signs have to be changed on the R68s (which now appears to be ~30% of the fleet), riders are confused all through the line until 34 St which train they are on, because sometimes JUST the front bullet will be changed, but the roll signs on the sides of the cars are NOT changed. You can have a train that says  Astoria-Ditmars Blvd / Lower Manhattan-Whitehall St on all of its signs AND the rear signs, but really be the  because the single front sign says so. The R46 LCD displays don't work over half the time, when I see the trains pass by (another ~45% of the fleet). When the MTA was in Phase 1 of re-opening after COVID-19 started, it was easier since the trains were for some miraculous reason making it to the end of the line on-time, giving the operators and conductors at least a FULL TWO MINUTES to change all the signs, but now trains arrive late and the dispatcher contradicts herself. 

Example: 

An R68A  pulled in and had to be changed over to the , and sent out as the . Then a second R68 showed up as the  and had to be changed over to the  (two consecutive trains), where the practical solution would have been to hold the first train until the  showed up (which was not even 90 seconds later. 

Also, there seems to be discrimination against running too many R46s (outside rush hours), which is understandable. 

 

All of this is not even considering the fact that therefore, the trains would leave Ditmars already LATE on their southbound trips because of the sign fiascos and incompetent dispatcher. And an all-R46 fleet doesn't work in practice because of the sign issues again, and the fact that trains on these two routes rack up way too much mileage and very small break-times between runs (if any).

I never said the should be R68's or anything 75 footer, I said they should get the r160's back while Jamaica gets the R211's. Me saying the don't deserve new cars is me saying it shouldn't get the R211's, It should get their R160's back.

 

 

[R32 3838]

4 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

Don’t worry. Anybody who says that the  should have gotten the R160s back then instead of the  and  clearly have no idea what they’re talking about.

That’s why I had to call him out lol. But nevertheless, I agree with everything you said. I’ve seen it all myself as well. It truly amazes me how some people on this forum praise some of the irresponsibilities within the  and think we cannot criticize them for it.

 

I never said the should have gotten the r160's before the and  

I said the should have gotten a piece of the R160 order. The swapping wasn't a big deal until after 2008 when ridership started to grow, the didn't have r160's until the siemens started coming in in mass in 2008.  before then the had the R40's and R68's

 

 

 

 

[Calvin]

26 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

Clearly you've never seen the disaster of operations that is Ditmars Blvd. When a train pulls in, there is a 25- 50% chance that it has to be changed over from the  to the  and vice versa. During rush hours, there are SCHEDULED changeovers, so when there is an issue, the amount of switching is absurd. When signs have to be changed on the R68s (which now appears to be ~30% of the fleet), riders are confused all through the line until 34 St which train they are on, because sometimes JUST the front bullet will be changed, but the roll signs on the sides of the cars are NOT changed. You can have a train that says  Astoria-Ditmars Blvd / Lower Manhattan-Whitehall St on all of its signs AND the rear signs, but really be the  because the single front sign says so. The R46 LCD displays don't work over half the time, when I see the trains pass by (another ~45% of the fleet). When the MTA was in Phase 1 of re-opening after COVID-19 started, it was easier since the trains were for some miraculous reason making it to the end of the line on-time, giving the operators and conductors at least a FULL TWO MINUTES to change all the signs, but now trains arrive late and the dispatcher contradicts herself. 

Example: 

An R68A  pulled in and had to be changed over to the , and sent out as the . Then a second R68 showed up as the  and had to be changed over to the  (two consecutive trains), where the practical solution would have been to hold the first train until the  showed up (which was not even 90 seconds later. 

Also, there seems to be discrimination against running too many R46s (outside rush hours), which is understandable. 

 

*And don't get me started on what has happened when one track at Ditmars Blvd is blocked because an R46 has to be pulled because of a mechanical issue. Literally every train that pulls in between the breakdown time and the time it takes to get the troubled train out of the way and freeing up the second track, EVERY train that pulls in has to get its roll signs changed. And all this is going on the assumption that the PA system works (which is debatable). When I've had R46 s or s stop at my stop and I'm waiting for my train on the platform, I can barely hear the conductor.

 

All of this is not even considering the fact that therefore, the trains would leave Ditmars already LATE on their southbound trips because of the sign fiascos and incompetent dispatcher. And an all-R46 fleet doesn't work in practice because of the sign issues again, and the fact that trains on these two routes rack up way too much mileage and very small break-times between runs (if any).

This affects the rush hour  via Sea Beach, but, not a big one since it's 1-4 trains during the rush. They usually put the R160s exclusively on that routing, but, it's mixed with the R46s. Most times, it's put as "To 96 St/Manhattan". Nowadays, an R68/A gets thrown on there and signs are all over departing 96 St/2 Av to Coney Island. 

 

Plus, there's leftover R160s popping up more often on the  due to the multiple terminals, minus the  with 1 terminal each from A to B. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Calvin

[Jemorie]

7 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

I never said the should have gotten the r160's before the and  

I said the should have gotten a piece of the R160 order. The swapping wasn't a big deal until after 2008 when ridership started to grow, the didn't have r160's until the siemens started coming in in mass in 2008.  before then the had the R40's and R68's

Well, as long as the  and  go back to being mostly to completely NTTs (if the R160s come back from Jamaica to Coney Island), I’m fine.

I do agree that the  should be the first in line for the R211s though. And there will be enough R211s to cover the whole  fleet if the option order cars get paid sooner or later, meaning it would free up all of the 5-car R179s to go to the , which will continue to stay 300 feet long.

IMO, I don’t think the  should jump from 300 feet to 480 feet just yet for the foreseeable future.