Community Expresses Outrage Over MTA's Decision to Pull $1 Billion from Second Avenue Subway

[R10 2952]

http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2015/11/3/community-expresses-outrage-over-mta-s-decision-to-pull--1-billion-from-second-avenue-subway.html

 

Good for them.  Finishing Phase 2 of SAS and getting the 10th Avenue Station on the built are much more important than a transfer connection in the middle of buttf**k nowhere... 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

LMAO... Eventually, but when is the question?

[Fresh Pond]

http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2015/11/3/community-expresses-outrage-over-mta-s-decision-to-pull--1-billion-from-second-avenue-subway.html

 

Good for them. Finishing Phase 2 of SAS and getting the 10th Avenue Station on the built are much more important than a transfer connection in the middle of buttf**k nowhere...

Idk man, having 2 trains arbitrarily cross each other and and being so close you can touch it, while at the same time passing a double fare just to get to them two and having a transfer promised but never done for decades sends like a giant middle finger to everyone there who uses those two lines

[MHV9218]

http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2015/11/3/community-expresses-outrage-over-mta-s-decision-to-pull--1-billion-from-second-avenue-subway.html

 

Good for them.  Finishing Phase 2 of SAS and getting the 10th Avenue Station on the built are much more important than a transfer connection in the middle of buttf**k nowhere... 

 

Wouldn't be "buttf**k nowhere" if there were better transit options out there. You should take the out there yourself. Pain in the ass it doesn't connect!

[Art Vandelay]

I think it is important to point out that a transfer from Livonia to Junius is MUCH cheaper to build than either the north end of SAS or 10/41. 
 

[trainfanrod]

I think it is important to point out that a transfer from Livonia to Junius is MUCH cheaper to build than either the north end of SAS or 10/41. 

 

agree i cant wait because its right by my house

[Fresh Pond]

agree i cant wait because its right by my house

Oh wow you live in the area too? Thought ur was just me lol

[BronxBombers]

Honestly I think that the SAS was much more important than the Extension and the Fulton Center. But East Harlem residents have a right to express their frustration.

[MysteriousBtrain]

All I really want to see in life if the 2nd phrase of 2 Av done. 3 and 4 are important, but not as much as 2. Phrase 1 is weak and will not pull much ridership if phrase 2 dosen't get funded soon.

[R10 2952]

What really sucks is when you have tunnels that were built 40 years ago and are just going to sit there for another 20 cause of misplaced priorities.  Lot easier to connect existing segments together than building entirely new infrastructure from scratch. 

[bobtehpanda]

What really sucks is when you have tunnels that were built 40 years ago and are just going to sit there for another 20 cause of misplaced priorities.  Lot easier to connect existing segments together than building entirely new infrastructure from scratch. 

 

Not so much "misplaced priorities" as "political squabbling". The MTA's official stance is that even if they were to start tomorrow, the lost year that occurred due to all this fighting pushed back the start of construction enough to put it in the next capital plan.

[R10 2952]

Yeah, kind of reminds me of their official position on restoring the Rockaway Line: "Again, we have not taken an official position on this".  LMAO...

[Roadcruiser1]

All this squabbling just screams for a mass transit Robert Moses.

[BronxBombers]

All I really want to see in life if the 2nd phrase of 2 Av done. 3 and 4 are important, but not as much as 2. Phrase 1 is weak and will not pull much ridership if phrase 2 dosen't get funded soon.

 

I disagree, I think that Phase 1 will pull in a decent amount of ridership. The 3 stations of phase 1 are near the busiest stations on the Lexington. The East Harlem stations aren't as busy as the Upper East Side stations. Unless people want to continue going down the East Side of Manhattan (south of 63rd), than phase 1 will still pull in some ridership. Not as much as Lexington of course.

[bobtehpanda]

All this squabbling just screams for a mass transit Robert Moses.

 

You keep saying this, but I don't think you actually know what that means. Robert Moses had terrible techniques and ideas.

[Around the Horn]

You keep saying this, but I don't think you actually know what that means. Robert Moses had terrible techniques and ideas.

I'll raise you a mass transit Austin Tobin (former Port of New York chairman-read the excellent book Empire on the Hudson)

[bobtehpanda]

I'll raise you a mass transit Austin Tobin (former Port of New York chairman-read the excellent book Empire on the Hudson)

 

I'm not sure what a book on the Port Authority has to do with how terrible Moses was, but okay. Have you read The Power Broker?

[Wallyhorse]

I think the point is, someone with the power of Robert Moses (or even in later years on the sports front, Sonny Werblin who got The Meadowlands built in the early-to-mid 1970s) BUT who unlike Moses actually cares and is a massive transit advocate who can force things to get done.

[RailRunRob]

I think the point is, someone with the power of Robert Moses (or even in later years on the sports front, Sonny Werblin who got The Meadowlands built in the early-to-mid 1970s) BUT who unlike Moses actually cares and is a massive transit advocate who can force things to get done.

I agree.

[Around the Horn]

I'm not sure what a book on the Port Authority has to do with how terrible Moses was, but okay. Have you read The Power Broker?

It had more to deal with how terrible their choice of "a mass transit Robert Moses" could potentially be.

 

I would rather have a mass transit Austin Tobin because not only did he have the drive he also had people skills and attemptted to get on the good side and work with the people he was "against".

 

The only reason the PABT was built was because after the "current" tenants on the property refused the eminent domain notice and threatened to sue,he offered to (and did) find and purchase alternate places for them to live in...

 

I recommended the book because in it they compare Tobin and Moses (who headbutted several times-Tobin won all of them)The difference between the two is stark...

 

I have not read The Power Broker yet but want to...

[Union Tpke]

I'm not sure what a book on the Port Authority has to do with how terrible Moses was, but okay. Have you read The Power Broker?

I read it on my 8th grade trip to Israel. It is a great book.

After reading it I really started to hate Robert Moses.

People had no say in his decisions.

Transportation projects are meant to help people and therefore people should have their say in them. I don't mean that a small group of people, NIMBYs, can mess the whole thing up, as it benefits more people than it hurts. And the costs are outweighed by the benefits.

However, today nothing can be done, as we don't have a real advocate for public transportation in New York that gets stuff done.

That is what people want when they say they want a Transit friendly Robert Moses.

[bobtehpanda]

I read it on my 8th grade trip to Israel. It is a great book.

After reading it I really started to hate Robert Moses.

People had no say in his decisions.

Transportation projects are meant to help people and therefore people should have their say in them. I don't mean that a small group of people, NIMBYs, can mess the whole thing up, as it benefits more people than it hurts. And the costs are outweighed by the benefits.

However, today nothing can be done, as we don't have a real advocate for public transportation in New York that gets stuff done.

That is what people want when they say they want a Transit friendly Robert Moses.

 

This Robert Moses logic led to the destruction of inner-city neighborhoods for the sole purpose of "improving transportation". If we can do transportation development without being disruptive, why should we even bother with the disruptive sort? In most cases building things that the foamers on here say are prevented by NIMBYs (like els or junctions that need property condemnation) are not worth the trouble versus building alternatives.

[CenSin]

This Robert Moses logic led to the destruction of inner-city neighborhoods for the sole purpose of "improving transportation". If we can do transportation development without being disruptive, why should we even bother with the disruptive sort? In most cases building things that the foamers on here say are prevented by NIMBYs (like els or junctions that need property condemnation) are not worth the trouble versus building alternatives.

Property condemnation is a one-time cost. Inefficiencies caused by workarounds will forever tax the riding public and the economy built on public transportation. …just my 2 cents.

[bobtehpanda]

Property condemnation is a one-time cost. Inefficiencies caused by workarounds will forever tax the riding public and the economy built on public transportation. …just my 2 cents.

 

Of course, and these things have to be determined on a case-by-case basis: ARC and East Side Access, for example, should've used existing platforms at Grand Central, despite the difficulty and the cost, and the N should go to LaGuardia. That being said, NIMBYs can be overcome, or convinced; PANYNJ convinced the NIMBYs around the Van Wyck that the AirTrain wouldn't be so bad. And anyways, there are only really two cases where this is brought up:

 

1. Els. There aren't that many places in the system where you could reasonably connect Els to the subway network, and places like Second/Third Avenue or the High Line that get mentioned often are not in these locations. An el connection to the subway would require an underground transition, and quite frankly in most cases there isn't a good place to put one, either for the neighborhood or the train.

 

2. Building new flying junctions. People will often suggest things like building a connection from SAS to either Nassau St or the Rutgers tunnel, or the Montague tunnel, and I've even seen some crazy suggestions involving linking the Montague tunnel to other subways on the Brooklyn side. In most cases there are ways to achieve similar results for significantly less disruption, and in most cases not only would it be disruptive to NIMBYs to build such things, but it'd be really disruptive to existing services to build such things.

 

In some cases not building these things leads to operational inefficiencies, but some of these can be overcome with time. For example, connecting the SAS to Nassau St brings you immediate access to Brooklyn in the short term, but long term will actually throttle you, since SAS will be limited to the capacity of DeKalb Junction, whereas building Phase IV and a connection to the Fulton St local will take longer but will ultimately have more benefits.

 

These discussions also tend to be rather pointless; Robert Moses was only able to steamroll community opposition because he had his own, self-controlled sources of money and fairly little maintenance to spend it on. The TBTA minted money when he was there, and at the time he didn't need to do any expensive, wholesale lifecycle replacement. The same cannot be said of the MTA.

[Grand Concourse]

All I really want to see in life if the 2nd phrase of 2 Av done. 3 and 4 are important, but not as much as 2. Phrase 1 is weak and will not pull much ridership if phrase 2 dosen't get funded soon.

agreed. They have the street opened up already. They could lower in the new tbm to drill the northern segments to prepare for the stations to be built. Why leave the hole there or close it up to reopen it again when they could finish the major job now? I mean all the money issues with the line aside, phase 1 isn't going to do very much. You may make it easier for those along the 3 stops on the ues east of 3rd av, but people will still be crowding on the lexington from the bronx. If the sas were to get to 125th-lex then riders can transfer to the Q as an alternative than cram onto the 4/5/6. Finish phase 2 asap. Phase 3 and 4 at this point looks entirely doubtful, imo.