NYC's overgrown population. Will the subway be able to handle it?

[Javier]

When the subway was first being built 100 years ago, no one anticipated the amount of growth NYC would see in the coming years. For example, the has become the worlds top 10 lines that is a widely used subway line. The passes though all the neighborhoods in Queens, hence why it's called the international express.

 

But there's a problem - will the subway system be able to handle this?

 

The Lexington Avenue line is crush packed during rush hour. People from Hunter College, Bronx, Manahttan all willing to get to their destinations collide with each other. The local by itself isn't enough. The MTA thought quickly by building the Second AV Subway which should help reduce some crowding, but other then that the problem still stands.

 

The TPH on the rest of the subway system is already at maximum, but continued growth in ridership is forcing the TPH to not be enough. Are there any ideas to solve this issue?

[Lance]

Honestly, what do you think? There hasn't been a serious expansion of the subway since the IND built their lines in the '30s. Even then, those lines were built with the expectation they'd replace the aging elevated lines operated by the IRT and BMT Only Queens Blvd and the Crosstown lines were exceptions to this rule.

 

Since then, we've only had incremental expansions to the subway, most of which were recaptured lines from the defunct BMT, like the eastern end of the Fulton St elevate, or railroads that no longer existed or couldn't profit from operating services on those tracks, such as Dyre Ave in '41 and the southern end of the Rockaway Beach line in '56. Other so-called expansions cannot really be called such as they really only exist to improve capacity and do not really expand the reach of the subway. The Chrystie St connection and the 63rd Street line come to mind here. Regarding the latter, the line is woefully under-utilized because both ends are either approaching or are at full capacity.

 

If they weren't built for the sake of increased capacity, they were built for transfer optimization. While Archer Ave was intended to run to Locust Manor, as built, it only exists to facilitate the transfer between the Queens Blvd and the Jamaica lines and provide a connection to the LIRR and the multitude of buses that run to Jamaica station and the 165th Street Bus Terminal.

 

Since you asked, no I do not believe the city's transportation network, much less the subway itself, will ever be able to meet the demand of the city's population. What's needed is a city and a state government that will not only pitch ideas like the '68 Program for Action or the IND Second System, but actually follow through with such proposals with serious investments in all facets of transit for the city and the region as a whole. It's quite easy to draw lines on a map. It's another thing entirely to back it up with funding and political will.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Honestly, what do you think? There hasn't been a serious expansion of the subway since the IND built their lines in the '30s. Even then, those lines were built with the expectation they'd replace the aging elevated lines operated by the IRT and BMT Only Queens Blvd and the Crosstown lines were exceptions to this rule.

 

Since then, we've only had incremental expansions to the subway, most of which were recaptured lines from the defunct BMT, like the eastern end of the Fulton St elevate, or railroads that no longer existed or couldn't profit from operating services on those tracks, such as Dyre Ave in '41 and the southern end of the Rockaway Beach line in '56. Other so-called expansions cannot really be called such as they really only exist to improve capacity and do not really expand the reach of the subway. The Chrystie St connection and the 63rd Street line come to mind here. Regarding the latter, the line is woefully under-utilized because both ends are either approaching or are at full capacity.

 

If they weren't built for the sake of increased capacity, they were built for transfer optimization. While Archer Ave was intended to run to Locust Manor, as built, it only exists to facilitate the transfer between the Queens Blvd and the Jamaica lines and provide a connection to the LIRR and the multitude of buses that run to Jamaica station and the 165th Street Bus Terminal.

 

Since you asked, no I do not believe the city's transportation network, much less the subway itself, will ever be able to meet the demand of the city's population. What's needed is a city and a state government that will not only pitch ideas like the '68 Program for Action or the IND Second System, but actually follow through with such proposals with serious investments in all facets of transit for the city and the region as a whole. It's quite easy to draw lines on a map. It's another thing entirely to back it up with funding and political will.

Let's face it.  Subways are expensive to build and they destroy the fabric of neighborhoods.  The Upper East Side along Second Avenue will take YEARS to come back to what it was (if ever), and many small businesses have been lost in this mess.  I used to frequent that area a lot in from the upper 70's to the 80's after stopping at Agata & Valentina on 1st and 79th, and I can say that I haven't been over there for brunch, lunch, dinner or anything of the sort in some time, but I do know that several restaurants that I used to frequent have shuttered.  Libertà comes to mind.  I knew the owner (great Sicilian guy) who put out a good product and it was a shame to see that establishment go.  Small businesses are the fabric of our economy.  It's easy to yell hey, those people can do something else, or hey the people uprooted can move elsewhere, but that's easier said than done, and we have seen how transportation projects have literally destroyed entire communities (a lot of the Bronx comes to mind when the Cross Bronx Expressway was build) and the Bronx still hasn't recovered from that.  You had white flight on another level and landlords burning their buildings down to collect insurance money since no one was renting in their properties.  I sincerely think that we need to look outside of the box and look at other alternatives to move people.  For all of the hype, I don't think SAS will make that much of an impact on reducing overcrowding on the because so far it hasn't been well thought out.  The placement of stops makes no sense and only serve to put more people out of their way.  How did they come to the conclusion of those stops anyway?  I understand the point of not having express stops, but still.  

 

When the subway was first being built 100 years ago, no one anticipated the amount of growth NYC would see in the coming years. For example, the has become the worlds top 10 lines that is a widely used subway line. The passes though all the neighborhoods in Queens, hence why it's called the international express.

 

But there's a problem - will the subway system be able to handle this?

 

The Lexington Avenue line is crush packed during rush hour. People from Hunter College, Bronx, Manahttan all willing to get to their destinations collide with each other. The local by itself isn't enough. The MTA thought quickly by building the Second AV Subway which should help reduce some crowding, but other then that the problem still stands.

 

The TPH on the rest of the subway system is already at maximum, but continued growth in ridership is forcing the TPH to not be enough. Are there any ideas to solve this issue?

LOL... Where did you get the idea that the decided to build SAS "quickly"?  You clearly need to read up on that project and how long it has taken to get it revived.

[Javier]

You know what I meant by quickly. The growing problems of Lexington Avenue became that big of an issue to have the MTA build the first phase of the SAS. Remember, partially the reason why SAS is being built is because of the constant over crowding on Lex, as well as to give riders easier access to Second Avenue.

 

And Lance, I agree with you on your point. The city needs to start taking the transit system more seriously.

[Lance]

@VG8: You mention that subway construction destroys neighborhoods and in the same breath, you point to the Cross Bronx Expressway as an example of such destruction by transportation projects in general. Newsflash, most of those highways were built with little regard for the neighborhoods they ran through. There's a reason why Robert Moses is vilified by most people. If he had an idea of where a highway needed to go and had the required political backing, people were powerless to stop him from plowing down a neighborhood for an "expressway". There's a reason why people like Jane Jacobs are remembered. If people didn't stand up to his antics, we would've lost more neighborhoods in Moses' quest for endless highways.

 

Subways, while a great annoyance during their seemingly endless construction, are a boon to the neighborhood and the city as a whole. Nobody is doubting that construction of said lines can and likely is quite disruptive to people's livelihoods, but the end results outweigh those by a lot. Also, they don't destroy neighborhoods as you so stated. The days of that have long-since passed.

 

We're hitting a point where we will not be able to throw SBS routes at a problem and consider it fixed. Nor will we be able to dig our heads in the sand and ignore the issue entirely as if it's not a problem. As to the exorbitant length of time it takes for anything to get done, that lies in the mismanagement of government construction projects in general. It's all too telling that similar projects the world over not only take less time to be completed, but take much less time to do so. Until we as a city, state and nation actually start doing something about these excessive cost and time overruns, nothing will ever change.

 

Regarding your little anecdote, your favorite little eatery could've closed for a multitude of reasons. This recession has been hard on a lot of people, especially small businesses. Without any proof, any ideas as to why that spot closed is pure speculation.

[ttcsubwayfan]

You know what I meant by quickly. The growing problems of Lexington Avenue became that big of an issue to have the MTA build the first phase of the SAS. Remember, partially the reason why SAS is being built is because of the constant over crowding on Lex, as well as to give riders easier access to Second Avenue.

 

And Lance, I agree with you on your point. The city needs to start taking the transit system more seriously.

Except that they've been trying to get it built for a little less than 100 years.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

@VG8: You mention that subway construction destroys neighborhoods and in the same breath, you point to the Cross Bronx Expressway as an example of such destruction by transportation projects in general. Newsflash, most of those highways were built with little regard for the neighborhoods they ran through. There's a reason why Robert Moses is vilified by most people. If he had an idea of where a highway needed to go and had the required political backing, people were powerless to stop him from plowing down a neighborhood for an "expressway". There's a reason why people like Jane Jacobs are remembered. If people didn't stand up to his antics, we would've lost more neighborhoods in Moses' quest for endless highways.

 

Subways, while a great annoyance during their seemingly endless construction, are a boon to the neighborhood and the city as a whole. Nobody is doubting that construction of said lines can and likely is quite disruptive to people's livelihoods, but the end results outweigh those by a lot. Also, they don't destroy neighborhoods as you so stated. The days of that have long-since passed.

 

We're hitting a point where we will not be able to throw SBS routes at a problem and consider it fixed. Nor will we be able to dig our heads in the sand and ignore the issue entirely as if it's not a problem. As to the exorbitant length of time it takes for anything to get done, that lies in the mismanagement of government construction projects in general. It's all too telling that similar projects the world over not only take less time to be completed, but take much less time to do so. Until we as a city, state and nation actually start doing something about these excessive cost and time overruns, nothing will ever change.

 

Regarding your little anecdote, your favorite little eatery could've closed for a multitude of reasons. This recession has been hard on a lot of people, especially small businesses. Without any proof, any ideas as to why that spot closed is pure speculation.

Oh please.  Your request to provide "proof" is a lame ploy to excuse SAS by trying to tie the closure of small businesses that were viable on the Upper East Side to other factors, when it has been noted in the media that number of them have shuttered specifically because they have been negatively impacted by SAS, and not because of rising rents or other factors.  Their establishments were more difficult to access and meant folks having to go out of their way to enjoy them.  That business had been around for many years and was quite successful, and it didn't just close just because of "other factors", but you can put that out there if you it makes you feel better.

 

Additionally, how can you say that the days of neighborhoods being destroyed by transportation projects are long gone when the Bronx was burning for a good 30 years and is still facing obstacles of making a turnaround?  You clearly are either out of touch or just want to push the agenda that transportation projects are always good overall, and I think quite a few people would beg to differ with that idea.  

 

I'd also like to add that constructing subways is extremely expensive.  You make it sound as if the city and the state have tons of money just laying around for these projects, when they don't.  All it takes is a real estate collapse and a Wall Street meltdown for this city to go into the tanks again the way it did towards 2008 and into 2009.  We have to spend wisely, especially since our local economy is becoming less diversified and more dependent upon Wall Street, tourism, tech and a few other areas that are volatile.  

 

It's people like Robert Moses that have made new transportation projects an obstacle because his tactics had little regard for the impact that neighborhoods and local areas would deal with for years to come.  Luckily we have activists, community boards and the like to stop the city from coming in and destroying entire neighborhoods.

[B46 via Utica]

It depends heavily on how many people are looking forward to use the subway. Keep in mind that the subway is not the only transportation that needs to improve or what we have . If the takes the time out and is careful about using thier money. They won't blow millions of dollars on unnecessary subway extensions,lines or projects we don't need then things can go smoothly.

Let's face it. Subways are expensive to build and they destroy the fabric of neighborhoods. The Upper East Side along Second Avenue will take YEARS to come back to what it was (if ever), and many small businesses have been lost in this mess. I used to frequent that area a lot in from the upper 70's to the 80's after stopping at Agata & Valentina on 1st and 79th, and I can say that I haven't been over there for brunch, lunch, dinner or anything of the sort in some time, but I do know that several restaurants that I used to frequent have shuttered. Libertà comes to mind. I knew the owner (great Sicilian guy) who put out a good product and it was a shame to see that establishment go. Small businesses are the fabric of our economy. It's easy to yell hey, those people can do something else, or hey the people uprooted can move elsewhere, but that's easier said than done, and we have seen how transportation projects have literally destroyed entire communities (a lot of the Bronx comes to mind when the Cross Bronx Expressway was build) and the Bronx still hasn't recovered from that. You had white flight on another level and landlords burning their buildings down to collect insurance money since no one was renting in their properties. I sincerely think that we need to look outside of the box and look at other alternatives to move people. For all of the hype, I don't think SAS will make that much of an impact on reducing overcrowding on the because so far it hasn't been well thought out. The placement of stops makes no sense and only serve to put more people out of their way. How did they come to the conclusion of those stops anyway? I understand the point of not having express stops, but still.

 

 

LOL... Where did you get the idea that the decided to build SAS "quickly"? You clearly need to read up on that project and how long it has taken to get it revived.

I agree with you on the fact that SAS isin't planned out well but do you really think that you're precious "SBS" plan can move people around faster than the subway.

 

Edit: Also, If a certain neighborhood relies on a subway to get them to work than it doesn't destroy the fabric of a neighborhood.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It depends heavily on how many people are looking forward to use the subway. Keep in mind that the subway is not the only transportation that needs to improve or what we have . If the takes the time out and is careful about using thier money. They won't blow millions of dollars on unnecessary subway extensions,lines or projects we don't need then things can go smoothly.

I agree with you on the fact that SAS isin't planned out well but do you really think that you're precious "SBS" plan can move people around faster than the subway.

 

Edit: Also, If a certain neighborhood relies on a subway to get them to work than it doesn't destroy the fabric of a neighborhood.

Since when did SBS become so "precious" to me?  I like SBS for buses that are generally slow, but it can't replace the subway.  However, what I do support are other forms of transportation being enhanced in areas where the subway isn't possible or isn't needed because the population isn't that big.

 

As for your last comment, I think many on the Upper East Side would beg to differ.

[Javier]

Guys this is a friendly discussion here...this isn't the presidential debate

[Union Tpke]

Here is my list of must need projects to keep up with growth.

SUBWAY

A full length SAS 2 Tracks the whole way.

A 125th Street Crosstown, and a line running via the Park Avenue ROW in the Bronx. 

A Fordham Road – Pelham Parkway Line.

A Queens Bypass Line.

An extension of the IND Queens Boulevard Line to Springfield Boulevard.

The Triboro Rx.

An extension of the IND Archer Avenue Line via the Atlantic Branch ROW to Laurelton.

The reactivation of the Rockaway Beach Line.

An extension of the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line to Kings Highway.

A Tenth Avenue Line as an extension of the BMT Canarsie Line.

A third track on the BMT Jamaica El.

A connection between the IND Crosstown Line and the BMT Franklin Avenue Line.

An extension of the BMT Astoria Line to LaGuardia Airport.

An extension of the IRT Pelham Line to Co-Op City.

A Utica Avenue Line branching off the SAS at about 8th Street going on Grand Avenue in Brooklyn before going on Bushwick Avenue and Utica Avenue to Avenue U.

An extension of the IRT Flushing Line to College Point.

A track connection between the IND Eighth Avenue Line at WTC and the BMT Broadway Line at Cortlandt Street.

Instead of building Phase 4, the SAS would be connected to the BMT Nassau Street Line and the Manhattan Bridge North Tracks.

A new junction at Broadway – Lafayette would be built to reconnect the express tracks to the center tracks at Second Avenue. These tracks would continue under the East River to meet up with the SAS tracks in Williamsburg.

A Bushwick – LIE Line would branch off at Montrose, running via the Bushwick Branch, Flushing Avenue and the LIE to Douglaston Parkway.

This line would be 4 tracks until Main Street.

A 101st Street Storage Yard and a ConEd storage Yard would be built. Jamaica Yard would be expanded.

 

REGIONAL RAIL

The Port Jefferson Branch would be extended and electrified to Wading River.

The Ronkonkoma Branch would be electrified and double tracked to Riverhead.

The Central Branch would be rebuilt, double tracked, and would have stations built on it to a new grade separated junction with the Ronkonkoma Branch.

The Main Line would be triple tracked. Queens Interlocking would be grade separated.

The Lower Montauk Branch would be grade separated, would be electrified, would have signals installed, and stations built. A connection would be built to the East River Tunnels.

A new Sunnyside Junction station would be built so passengers from the NH, and LI passengers going to Penn and GCT can transfer.

The Oyster Bay Branch and the West Hempstead Branch would be converted to the Cross–Nassau Light Rail.

The Montauk Branch to Rosedale would be triple tracked.

The Danbury Branch would be electrified and extended to New Milford.

SLE would be extended to Westerly and would be merged into the regional rail system. So would the Springfield – Hartford Line.

Shell Interlocking would be grade separated.

An additional track would be restored on the Hells Gate Bridge.

Spuytin Duyvil Interlocking would be grade separated so that trains from the Empire Connection could run seamlessly.

The Tappan Zee Bridge would be refitted to allow trains from the Hudson Line to continue to Suffern.

The Main Line, Bergen Line, West Shore Line, Northern Branch, Pascack Valley Line, Raritan Valley Line, Port Jervis Line, Montclair–Boonton, Gladstone Branch, New York, Susquehanna and Western, West Trenton, and Morris-Essex Lines would ALL be electrified.

The Empire Connection would be double tracked, three stations would be added, and a new connection to Penn Station would be built.

A new, deeper Atlantic Terminal station would be built so that a new tunnel to Lower Manhattan could be built.

East Side Access and tracks from the LL of GCT would form a four track line running down Madison Avenue and Wooster Street as the new Regional Rail trunk.

The SIR would become a FRA regulated line.

A tunnel and line from New Jersey in Pavonia to the Fulton-WTC complex would be built.

A tunnel from Saint George, SI would connect to the Fulton-WTC complex.

Trains from LI and Westchester via ESA and GCT could go to the Atlantic Branch, SI, and NJ.

Trains from the Atlantic Branch could go to NJ.

Penn Station would be completely rebuilt with wider platforms and fewer tracks.

The Northern Branch, New York, Susquehanna and Western Line, West Shore Line, North Shore Branch (SI), West Trenton Line, Lackawanna Cut-off, and MOM Line.

 

In NYC the fare would be .50 to .75 above the subway fare. There would be free transfers from the Regional Rail to the subway.

Additional stations in Manhattan and in NYC would be added, such as 14th Street Union Square, WTC, South Ferry.

The most important new station would be a complex at Madison Avenue and 34th Street. A station here was originally part of the plan for the Pennsy to get into New York. A transfer between the GCT and Penn lines would be available here, as well as a transfer to the and the Herald Square station.

[LTA1992]

The only thing that will support the future growth of this city is more subway construction as Lance stated in the beginning. Every single time this city was faced with a transit system unable to handle the traffic, more was built. The cycle has happened at least twice in the past, and it will need to happen again. And like in the past, the poor will be relocated further into the outskirts, requiring new lines and extensions to be built to handle that traffic.

 

Some individuals have seen what I think this city needs subway wise, just not in detail. But elaborating on that (line by line) is on pause until I have a stable place to live again w/ internet access.

[Wallyhorse]

Let's face it.  Subways are expensive to build and they destroy the fabric of neighborhoods.  The Upper East Side along Second Avenue will take YEARS to come back to what it was (if ever), and many small businesses have been lost in this mess.  I used to frequent that area a lot in from the upper 70's to the 80's after stopping at Agata & Valentina on 1st and 79th, and I can say that I haven't been over there for brunch, lunch, dinner or anything of the sort in some time, but I do know that several restaurants that I used to frequent have shuttered.  Libertà comes to mind.  I knew the owner (great Sicilian guy) who put out a good product and it was a shame to see that establishment go.  Small businesses are the fabric of our economy.  It's easy to yell hey, those people can do something else, or hey the people uprooted can move elsewhere, but that's easier said than done, and we have seen how transportation projects have literally destroyed entire communities (a lot of the Bronx comes to mind when the Cross Bronx Expressway was build) and the Bronx still hasn't recovered from that.  You had white flight on another level and landlords burning their buildings down to collect insurance money since no one was renting in their properties.  I sincerely think that we need to look outside of the box and look at other alternatives to move people.  For all of the hype, I don't think SAS will make that much of an impact on reducing overcrowding on the because so far it hasn't been well thought out.  The placement of stops makes no sense and only serve to put more people out of their way.  How did they come to the conclusion of those stops anyway?  I understand the point of not having express stops, but still.  

 

LOL... Where did you get the idea that the decided to build SAS "quickly"?  You clearly need to read up on that project and how long it has taken to get it revived.

Many of those small business are being pushed out by a much bigger problem than the SAS build, namely landlords who are looking to jack the rents to impossible levels for many small businesses because too many big chains and banks are looking for Manhattan locations, especially chains who use New York as a loss leader if they are international as having such helps them tremendously with locations outside the US.   Of the places that populated 86th and 2nd when I was growing up for example, only Schaller & Weber and the Heidlberg still remain from that time.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Many of those small business are being pushed out by a much bigger problem than the SAS build, namely landlords who are looking to jack the rents to impossible levels for many small businesses because too many big chains and banks are looking for Manhattan locations, especially chains who use New York as a loss leader if they are international as having such helps them tremendously with locations outside the US.   Of the places that populated 86th and 2nd when I was growing up for example, only Schaller & Weber and the Heidlberg still remain from that time.

That's currently the case, but when SAS started, rents were less of an issue and SAS in most cases was the main factor driving small businesses out.  Most of the businesses that have been killed were done before rent hikes even became an issue.  I would say rents became more an issue in the spring of 2012 or thereafter as the recession was starting to ease around 2011. That's when the rents started shooting up again.  It's a problem in most affluent areas of the city including my neighborhood.  

 

In any event, I am not 100% sold on the idea of the subway being "the" answer to solve our transportation problem.  Just building them isn't enough.  We need more studies done to understand travel patterns and address them accordingly. The mentality of the is extremely outdated.  It focuses its serves primarily on peak travel and leaves off-peak travel as an afterthought.  We need a concerted effort to bridge as many transportation options as possible.  Ferries, light rail service, more biking where possible, etc.  I favor a European model for New York City.  Yes, most of Western Europe in particular has excellent rail service, but other services are also quite efficient.  

 

Go to Milan and see how things are done there.  It's a small New York that fights smog with trams, buses, trains, and the like and also offers tiered services for those that want more comfort and luxury when traveling (i.e. Eurostar (Italia) now Frecciarossa).  Rome offers similar services as well.

 

I would be more in favor of having trams in some areas.  This is one my shots from Milan.  This is a beautiful tram, easy to access and requires far less construction costs. I don't understand why we got rid of the ones we had to begin with.

 

[Wallyhorse]

Tons here to go through,  I'll highlight the ones in the quote I'm responding to and post below:

Here is my list of must need projects to keep up with growth.

SUBWAY

A full length SAS 2 Tracks the whole way.

A 125th Street Crosstown, and a line running via the Park Avenue ROW in the Bronx. 

A Fordham Road – Pelham Parkway Line.

A Queens Bypass Line.

An extension of the IND Queens Boulevard Line to Springfield Boulevard.

The Triboro Rx.

An extension of the IND Archer Avenue Line via the Atlantic Branch ROW to Laurelton.

The reactivation of the Rockaway Beach Line.

An extension of the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line to Kings Highway.

A Tenth Avenue Line as an extension of the BMT Canarsie Line.

A third track on the BMT Jamaica El.

A connection between the IND Crosstown Line and the BMT Franklin Avenue Line.

An extension of the BMT Astoria Line to LaGuardia Airport.

An extension of the IRT Pelham Line to Co-Op City.

A Utica Avenue Line branching off the SAS at about 8th Street going on Grand Avenue in Brooklyn before going on Bushwick Avenue and Utica Avenue to Avenue U.

An extension of the IRT Flushing Line to College Point.

A track connection between the IND Eighth Avenue Line at WTC and the BMT Broadway Line at Cortlandt Street.

Instead of building Phase 4, the SAS would be connected to the BMT Nassau Street Line and the Manhattan Bridge North Tracks.

A new junction at Broadway – Lafayette would be built to reconnect the express tracks to the center tracks at Second Avenue. These tracks would continue under the East River to meet up with the SAS tracks in Williamsburg.

A Bushwick – LIE Line would branch off at Montrose, running via the Bushwick Branch, Flushing Avenue and the LIE to Douglaston Parkway.

This line would be 4 tracks until Main Street.

A 101st Street Storage Yard and a ConEd storage Yard would be built. Jamaica Yard would be expanded.

A full-length SAS 2 Tracks the whole way: Absolutely, with 55th Street built as a three-track station to compensate for 72nd not being built as one.  As I would do it, that would be potentially where there is a second SAS line that terminates at 55th (maybe extended when capacity allows to 125th) that would connect to the Rutgers Line after Houston and become the Culver Express in Brooklyn (this may require moving the SAS to 1st Avenue south of say 23rd Street to do this) while the line going to Hanover Square would then run via a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel and via Fulton as the Fulton Street local to Euclid Avenue.  
 

A 125th Street Crosstown, and a line running via the Park Avenue ROW in the Bronx:  125th I've for years advocated going to Broadway and a transfer to the plus transfers to all of the other lines across 125.  It would be nice to build a subway line via the Park Avenue ROW but I don't see that as being realistic, that to me could be more realistically done by rebuilding the route that was the former Bronx 3rd Avenue EL (most likely as subway). 

An extension of the IND Queens Boulevard Line to Springfield Boulevard:  This I would actually do via the Archer Avenue Line, with the intention of having such (whether E, J/Z or both) run to Belmont Park (with the terminal being near the grandstand entrance and a mini-yard underneath what currently is the Queens side of the parking lot on the backstretch that would double as a barebones station that can be used on major race days to shuttle people from the track to parking areas).   If you can do it via the QB line, that would be great.

The reactivation of the Rockaway Beach Line,  a Tenth Avenue Line as an extension of the BMT Canarsie Line and a third track on the BMT Jamaica El:  All Three of these are definitely needed

A connection between the IND Crosstown Line and the BMT Franklin Avenue Line:  If you can do that, it would be great, but I had previously proposed doing as part of a major rebuild of the Myrtle-Broadway Station having it so the upper level of Myrtle Avenue is rebuilt and re-activated to where runs on a short-stretch of a rebuilt Myrtle El line (including a station at Sumner Avenue and one around Bedford-Nostrand that includes a transfer to the before running across what currently is the Franklin Avenue Shuttle and then running as the Brighton Local to Coney Island.    This would be the Myrtle-Brighton Line.

A track connection between the IND Eighth Avenue Line at WTC and the BMT Broadway Line at Cortlandt Street:  This to me is something that could not be done very easily now.  We just had a discussion about this over at Sub Chat and I noted there the time to do this was 1966 when the WTC was first under contrusction. That would have been the time to do that. 

Instead of building Phase 4, the SAS would be connected to the BMT Nassau Street Line and the Manhattan Bridge North Tracks: Another thing I advocated many times here, however, there have been issues noted with this and the bigger problem is the interlocking at DeKalb.  

 

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

All this growing ridership hype is getting ridiculous now. The vast majority of it is occurring during off peak hours where there is room to accomdate increased ridership. Also in overall ridership numbers we are reaching levels that were being hit pre-1950. In fact peak hour Lex Av ridership is less today than in 1974 (I'm using that year because this tidbit was found on SubChat and that was the year given as a proxy.). Why are the trains just as if not more crowded now? Easy answer: Less of them are being run today. More service should hold absolute priority over the addition of track mileage.

 

Also Javier, the isn't one of the ten busiest subway lines in North America so where did the world come from? There are at least ten lines in NYC with more daily foot traffic then the . In terms of daily ridership the is at about 300,000 which is average when compared to metro lines across the world.

[Union Tpke]

Why was my comment removed?

[Javier]

All this growing ridership hype is getting ridiculous now. The vast majority of it is occurring during off peak hours where there is room to accomdate increased ridership. Also in overall ridership numbers we are reaching levels that were being hit pre-1950. In fact peak hour Lex Av ridership is less today than in 1974 (I'm using that year because this tidbit was found on SubChat and that was the year given as a proxy.). Why are the trains just as if not more crowded now? Easy answer: Less of them are being run today. More service should hold absolute priority over the addition of track mileage.

 

Also Javier, the isn't one of the ten busiest subway lines in North America so where did the world come from? There are at least ten lines in NYC with more daily foot traffic then the . In terms of daily ridership the is at about 300,000 which is average when compared to metro lines across the world.

Watch the shutdown video and you'll know what I mean

[BreeddekalbL]

lets not building highline style parks where there needs to be trains for it would help

[QM1to6Ave]

if the MTA got serious about lower fares on LIRR or MNRR for intra-city travel, it may reduce the load on subways, especially once east side access is completed

 

Expanded express and SBS routes can make a small dent, as well. Each piece may only help a little, but the combined effect from all of them could make a difference at relatively low cost

[West End]

if the MTA got serious about lower fares on LIRR or MNRR for intra-city travel, it may reduce the load on subways, especially once east side access is completed

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Implementing a base intra-city fare for commuter rail would create a culture of fluidity in New York that's already seen in other cities across the globe. Take Paris for example, where Parisians treat the RER suburban rail as basically another form of the Metro when they're looking to get around their city. It would be as if the MTA introduced a second system without the cost of building a second system from scratch (not to say that an expanded subway system isn't needed). Additional trains (and possibly tracks) would be needed to supplement this change, but it may be balanced out by the potential decrease in bus and subway riders. 

 

The biggest obstacle, of course, is how the MTA would muster up funding for this since they would be taking a significant pay cut. New York unfortunately doesn't have kind of investment in public transportation that primate cities have.  

[bobtehpanda]

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Implementing a base intra-city fare for commuter rail would create a culture of fluidity in New York that's already seen in other cities across the globe. Take Paris for example, where Parisians treat the RER suburban rail as basically another form of the Metro when they're looking to get around their city. It would be as if the MTA introduced a second system without the cost of building a second system from scratch (not to say that an expanded subway system isn't needed). Additional trains (and possibly tracks) would be needed to supplement this change, but it may be balanced out by the potential decrease in bus and subway riders. 

 

The biggest obstacle, of course, is how the MTA would muster up funding for this since they would be taking a significant pay cut. New York unfortunately doesn't have kind of investment in public transportation that primate cities have.  

 

When the Metro-North cut fares in CT, the resulting ridership rise created more than enough revenue to replace it.

 

It should also be noted that Paris specifically does not use conductors on its commuter rails; everything is done using SBS style proof-of-payment. If you were to switch the LIRR or the Metro-North over to that system (for at least the frequent commuter lines), you would pretty much get enough cost savings to justify lower fares.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

When the Metro-North cut fares in CT, the resulting ridership rise created more than enough revenue to replace it.

 

It should also be noted that Paris specifically does not use conductors on its commuter rails; everything is done using SBS style proof-of-payment. If you were to switch the LIRR or the Metro-North over to that system (for at least the frequent commuter lines), you would pretty much get enough cost savings to justify lower fares.

I don't support getting rid of conductors in any way shape or form.  They did that with the SIR and it led to TONS of riff-raff riding and people farebeating.  I would only support such a system if security could be maintained, and there was a secure way of knowing that EVERYONE that got on paid.  Metro-North is a premium ride and I would like to maintain a civilized, clean ride. There's already enough bums riding the subways as it is using them as their personal bathroom, along with the endless stream of panhandlers and obnoxious performers and kids that "ain't selling no candy for no basketball team".    We don't need that on the commuter lines too.  I'm sure that riders in other suburban areas of the city along with those in Westchester and Connecticut would agree with me, and there is no way in hell that would go along with lowering the fares to the cost of a subway ride, nor should they.  $2.75 is more than reasonable for a subway ride, and if that isn't good enough and people want a faster commute, they should pay accordingly for it. I do however support transfers to and from MNRR to the bus or subway.  That makes sense, but I would not lower the fare too much.  If anything, lower them back to what they were before the 4% increase.  

[bobtehpanda]

 

It's people like Robert Moses that have made new transportation projects an obstacle because his tactics had little regard for the impact that neighborhoods and local areas would deal with for years to come.  Luckily we have activists, community boards and the like to stop the city from coming in and destroying entire neighborhoods.

 

The biggest difference between the subway and the highways though, is that the highways have a significantly bigger footprint and are also generally above the ground, forming a permanent scar. The subway is generally built more like an incision, and unless you're building an elevated line you won't see it once it's done.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The biggest difference between the subway and the highways though, is that the highways have a significantly bigger footprint and are also generally above the ground, forming a permanent scar. The subway is generally built more like an incision, and unless you're building an elevated line you won't see it once it's done.

Yeah but the rats generally don't just go away once the subway is built.  They tend to stick around.