Why is 5 the Bx Express instead of 2?

[Deucey]

Question triggered by this tweet: 

 

 

So I'm getting read to answer, then I look at the track map: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_west_3.png

Because  has to cross  to get on or off the express track on WPR Line, and  wouldn't, why is  the Bronx express instead of ? And is there any other reason than bureaucrats in staffing that make it so  and  have to swap Bronx terminals on weekends right now?

[Cabanamaner]

I've wondered the same thing myself. Uptown  trains are always delayed at East 180th Street, waiting for the  to cross in front and then over to the Dyre Avenue track. If i'm not mistaken, the MTA actually considered making the  the WPR express back in the '90s, but community intervention put a stop to it.

[Caelestor]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

So I'm getting read to answer, then I look at the track map: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_west_3.png

Because  has to cross  to get on or off the express track on WPR Line, and  wouldn't, why is  the Bronx express instead of ? And is there any other reason than bureaucrats in staffing that make it so  and  have to swap Bronx terminals on weekends right now?

From a logistical standpoint, the  absolutely should be the express route, but community opposition shot it down. 

The  and  swap Bronx terminals because the Dyre Ave and Wakefield crews are accustomed to running to only Bowling Green / South Ferry and Brooklyn College, respectively when regular service is running. Think of it as the  is running to Downtown Manhattan via 7 Ave and the  is running into Brooklyn via Lex Ave, except the rollsigns are reversed so riders don't get confused.

[Lance]

4 hours ago, Deucey said:

Question triggered by this tweet: 

 

 

So I'm getting read to answer, then I look at the track map: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_west_3.png

Because  has to cross  to get on or off the express track on WPR Line, and  wouldn't, why is  the Bronx express instead of ? And is there any other reason than bureaucrats in staffing that make it so  and  have to swap Bronx terminals on weekends right now?

Short answer: the riders want it that way.

Longer answer: The MTA actually wanted to switch the Bronx express designation back in 2000. After the proposal came out, riders on Dyre Ave were up in arms at the loss of peak direction express service, so much so that they got the local officials involved to retain the current service. Most Dyre Ave riders are heading straight to Manhattan, whereas the majority of upper White Plains Rd riders are intra-borough travelers. The runs to/from Nereid Av provide that express service for those looking for it.

[Deucey]

19 minutes ago, Lance said:

Short answer: the riders want it that way.

Longer answer: The MTA actually wanted to switch the Bronx express designation back in 2000. After the proposal came out, riders on Dyre Ave were up in arms at the loss of peak direction express service, so much so that they got the local officials involved to retain the current service. Most Dyre Ave riders are heading straight to Manhattan, whereas the majority of upper White Plains Rd riders are intra-borough travelers. The runs to/from Nereid Av provide that express service for those looking for it.

Still don’t get why they worried about whether it was  or  express up there, unless Dyre folks have a preference for Lex and Wakefield for Broadway.

It’s not like the terminals couldn’t be switched...

[Lance]

Dyre Ave riders lean more toward Lexington Ave, at least according to my observations over the years. I've seen the majority of riders stay on trains out of Dyre Av all the way to 125 Street and points beyond.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Lance

[Lawrence St]

While I think the northern terminal swap is stupid, I still see why they did it. It's better then to have the  run via Lex and the  via 7th Av, which would just cause major confusion.

[RR503]

Also keep in mind that lower WPR 'prefers'  service, creating yet another group angered by such proposals. 

Regardless, it's really time they did something about E180 merge. The  and  lines are some of the worst performing in the system, and their having to cross paths at E180 like it's some backwoods branchline isn't helping anyone. Either they should rebuild the Dyre connection to come down between 1/M and M/2, or they should just suffer the political pushback and make the  express. Yes, Dyre's ridership (which is, honestly, tiny) will get local'ed, and yes WPR upper will lose their one seat ride to Freeman Street or whatever, but everyone else on the  and  lines will benefit from more reliable service. Greatest good for the greatest number. 

[Eric B]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

While I think the northern terminal swap is stupid, I still see why they did it. It's better then to have the  run via Lex and the  via 7th Av, which would just cause major confusion.

 

5 hours ago, Caelestor said:

The  and  swap Bronx terminals because the Dyre Ave and Wakefield crews are accustomed to running to only Bowling Green / South Ferry and Brooklyn College, respectively when regular service is running. Think of it as the  is running to Downtown Manhattan via 7 Ave and the  is running into Brooklyn via Lex Ave, except the rollsigns are reversed so riders don't get confused.

They used to do it like that, and yes,swapping trunk lines is more confusing.

So what did they do; swap  and  crews so that they still go to their regular terminals?

[Lawrence St]

1 minute ago, Eric B said:

 

They used to do it like that, and yes,swapping trunk lines is more confusing.

So what did they do; swap  and  crews so that they still go to their regular terminals?

Internally, this is the route:

 - 241st St to Flatbush Av via Lexington Av Express (although hardly ANY train has ran express on Lex the past few weekends smh...) and Eastern Pkwy Local.

 - Dyre Av to South Ferry via 7th Avenue Local - Broadway Express.

[Lance]

21 hours ago, RR503 said:

Also keep in mind that lower WPR 'prefers'  service, creating yet another group angered by such proposals. 

Regardless, it's really time they did something about E180 merge. The  and  lines are some of the worst performing in the system, and their having to cross paths at E180 like it's some backwoods branchline isn't helping anyone. Either they should rebuild the Dyre connection to come down between 1/M and M/2, or they should just suffer the political pushback and make the  express. Yes, Dyre's ridership (which is, honestly, tiny) will get local'ed, and yes WPR upper will lose their one seat ride to Freeman Street or whatever, but everyone else on the  and  lines will benefit from more reliable service. Greatest good for the greatest number. 

Greatest good doesn't work when the bulk of riders are transferring at E 180 Street or 3 Avenue for express or local service because nobody likes the proposed service, hence the current setup. The problem is that when the flying junction was built in the '50s, the was the primary White Plains Rd line, running from 241 Street at all times. Peak direction service along the line was not impacted by the connection as the ran to/from Dyre Av.

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

[Coney Island Av]

1 minute ago, Lance said:

Greatest good doesn't work when the bulk of riders are transferring at E 180 Street or 3 Avenue for express or local service because nobody likes the proposed service, hence the current setup. The problem is that when the flying junction was built in the '50s, the was the primary White Plains Rd line, running from 241 Street at all times. Peak direction service along the line was not impacted by the connection as the ran to/from Dyre Av.

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

I can strongly agree with Lance. The crowding will be too much at E 180 Street, and a nightmare at 3 Av-149 St. Why? Because the latter station is the second-busiest stop in the Bronx, and adding more crowding will only make it worse. I also trust his experience of being a former daily commuter off of the . 

Long story short, it's because of customer preference. Operationally it seems good to make the  local, but ridership-wise only negates it. 

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Lance said:

Greatest good doesn't work when the bulk of riders are transferring at E 180 Street or 3 Avenue for express or local service because nobody likes the proposed service, hence the current setup. The problem is that when the flying junction was built in the '50s, the was the primary White Plains Rd line, running from 241 Street at all times. Peak direction service along the line was not impacted by the connection as the ran to/from Dyre Av.

That’s my point — the world doesn’t end at the Harlem River. Yes, the Bronx may suffer, but the rest of the city will benefit. 

And yes, I’m aware of the history. What I’m saying is that if this service pattern is gonna be preserved, the MTA needs to reconfigure the junction to make it so that the  and  do not conflict. 

1 hour ago, Lance said:

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

Rankings:

Dyre — 326

Baychester — 344

Gun Hill — 293 

Pelham Parkway — 372

Morris Park — 391

Not a single station breaks the top half of stations in terms of ridership, and only one is in the top 2/3. Any crowding observed is a result of unreliability — an issue this swap would solve. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by RR503

[Gotham Bus Co.]

1 hour ago, Lance said:

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

What about the rest of the day?

[Lance]

32 minutes ago, RR503 said:

That’s my point — the world doesn’t end at the Harlem River. Yes, the Bronx may suffer, but the rest of the city will benefit. 

And yes, I’m aware of the history. What I’m saying is that if this service pattern is gonna be preserved, the MTA needs to reconfigure the junction to make it so that the  and  do not conflict. 

Rankings:

Dyre — 326

Baychester — 344

Gun Hill — 293 

Pelham Parkway — 372

Morris Park — 391

Not a single station breaks the top half of stations in terms of ridership, and only one is in the top 2/3. Any crowding observed is a result of unreliability — an issue this swap would solve. 

Interesting. Sure didn't feel like that when I took the trains.

As for swapping the routes, I'd say go for it. I don't know if this will get any more traction than it did back in 2000, but if you catch the ear of some local official, more power to you.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Don't let the low rankings of Dyre Av stations fool you. The vast majority of those boardings are Southbound during the AM Rush when only 7 TPH are running on the Dyre. The  from Dyre fills up very quickly. Most cars have 75-80 passengers on them entering East 180th (AM Rush only) which is way too much considering the crowding the  will end up seeing further along the route. If only there were someway to run more than 7 TPH from Dyre Av in the morning the  wouldn't be so bad. It's sad that folks who ride the the  in mid-afternoon to head to Manhattan get more frequent service than a peak traveler. 

[Jemorie]

6 minutes ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

Don't let the low rankings of Dyre Av stations fool you. The vast majority of those boardings are Southbound during the AM Rush when only 7 TPH are running on the Dyre. The  from Dyre fills up very quickly. Most cars have 75-80 passengers on them entering East 180th (AM Rush only) which is way too much considering the crowding the  will end up seeing further along the route. If only there were someway to run more than 7 TPH from Dyre Av in the morning the  wouldn't be so bad. It's sad that folks who ride the the  in mid-afternoon to head to Manhattan get more frequent service than a peak traveler. 

You know. I've always thought the very same thing. It's really strange. Are those  trains to or from Nereid really needed at all?

[RR503]

4 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

You know. I've always thought the very same thing. It's really strange. Are those  trains to or from Nereid really needed at all?

They're political dogbones for upper WPR folks, and a jury-rigged way for the MTA to avoid some merge delays. They also facilitate a few put-ins from Westchester Yard IIRC. 

It'd be fascinating to get the numbers on their ridership. 

 

 

[Calvin]

I wonder wouldn't it make sense to have the headways for the to South Ferry 12 minutes with the 5 8 minutes. Usually, during the weekends, the wait can be 5 minutes then the next train could be 16 minutes for the

[Jemorie]

54 minutes ago, RR503 said:

They're political dogbones for upper WPR folks, and a jury-rigged way for the MTA to avoid some merge delays. They also facilitate a few put-ins from Westchester Yard IIRC. 

It'd be fascinating to get the numbers on their ridership. 

Understandable. But if trains originating at Dyre Avenue during the AM Rush easily get super crowded before reaching East 180th Street, then they might as well have most of the trains originate at Dyre Avenue instead of about half of them like the split  currently does.

Nevertheless, I agree that the junction north of East 180th Street does causes some delays when service on both the  and  combined is more frequent during both AM and PM Rushes (like for example in the PM Rush when a Eastchester-bound  express and Wakefield-bound  local arrive at East 180th Street at the same time but only one of them can depart from the station before the other does or vice-versa in the AM Rush when a Manhattan-bound  express and a Manhattan-bound  local are almost to East 180th Street but only one of them can proceed first). It sucks but what can we do.

No wonder why that's part of the reason alternate trains originate or terminate at Nereid Avenue in the peak direction.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Jemorie

[Lawrence St]

The main problem during the weekends is that the  and  constantly merge in front of each other at East 180th St

[Snowblock]

There shouldn't be any AM problems at E180 unless a Nereid and a Dyre arrive at the same time. The uses B lead during the AM rush so that it leaves tk 2 available to both services. A and a Dyre can both come into E180 at the same time with no interference. 

PMs is another story. At the least, if a and a Nereid arrive at the same time, make the connection and then the can stay in the middle to Gun Hill. 

[checkmatechamp13]

On 3/29/2018 at 8:20 PM, Lawrence St said:

While I think the northern terminal swap is stupid, I still see why they did it. It's better then to have the  run via Lex and the  via 7th Av, which would just cause major confusion.

I would assume it's because ridership is higher on the WPR line, so that's the line that receives the direct Brooklyn-bound service.

17 hours ago, Lance said:

Greatest good doesn't work when the bulk of riders are transferring at E 180 Street or 3 Avenue for express or local service because nobody likes the proposed service, hence the current setup. The problem is that when the flying junction was built in the '50s, the was the primary White Plains Rd line, running from 241 Street at all times. Peak direction service along the line was not impacted by the connection as the ran to/from Dyre Av.

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

Probably has something to do with the fact that the train is receiving only half the normal amount of service. 

14 hours ago, RR503 said:

They're political dogbones for upper WPR folks, and a jury-rigged way for the MTA to avoid some merge delays. They also facilitate a few put-ins from Westchester Yard IIRC. 

It'd be fascinating to get the numbers on their ridership. 

 

I remember a thread where somebody mentioned a ridiculously late  train to Nereid that they benefitted from (they got a direct express ride to Gun Hill & WPR long after the PM rush ended) and a T/O mentioned that in the AM rush, those are the trains that make up  service for the midday, while in the PM, it's the opposite (the Dyre line receives priority because those trains turn around and make up service for the rest of the evening). So that means in the interests of preserving the rest of the service, they might hold those  trains to let other trains pass in front, sometimes for a long time (in this case, I remember the poster mentioned it was 8:42pm and the last train is scheduled to arrive at 125th at 6:43pm) 

[Jemorie]

I don’t see what does the  and  Bronx terminal swap has anything to do with ridership on upper WPR...not when they now get service every 12 minutes while Dyre gets service every 8 minutes, which honestly makes no sense at all to me.

Even the Flatbush branch gets service every 12 minutes instead of every 8 minutes. The weekend , ,  and  all need to run either every 8 minutes or every 10 minutes as well as after the Clark Street Repairs are finished.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Jemorie

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, Jemorie said:

I don’t see what does the  and  Bronx terminal swap has anything to do with ridership on upper WPR...not when they now get service every 12 minutes while Dyre gets service every 8 minutes, which honestly makes no sense at all to me.

Even the Flatbush branch gets service every 12 minutes instead of every 8 minutes. The weekend , ,  and  all need to run either every 8 minutes or every 10 minutes as well as after the Clark Street Repairs are finished.

Agreed. The train on weekends is especially horrible. They are PACKED before they even finish in the Bronx. Just imagine if there was no BxM11 which is used heavily in Pelham Parkway. Those trains would be a mess. They would have to start some trains at Pelham Parkway which is what they should do if possible and perhaps at 3rd Avenue-149th street as well.

What hasn't been mentioned here is the Bronx has experienced sizable population growth, especially along the line. Everyone is running to neighborhoods with subway service which is exacerbating the problem. Neighborhoods like Williamsbridge with their quality of life issues still offer one of the least beacons of "cheap" rents that are becoming harder and harder to find, especially near subway lines. Pelham Parkway has become quite expensive and part of that is because of the subway. More people working in Manhattan in order to pay the high rents.

All of these neighorhoods are changing and bringing more people to them... More housing being built, yet the is not matching the service needs of these areas and it's a big problem.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Via Garibaldi 8