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AlgorithmOfTruth

Extending the 5 to Grand Central–42nd Street on weeknights

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Currently, the setup along Lexington Avenue during weeknights is clear to everyone—both the (4) and (6) operate completely local along the entire Lexington Avenue Line on weeknights (if they aren't rerouted onto the express tracks in certain sections due to track work). However, it is difficult for a passenger to commute to a station along the Dyre Avenue Line during weeknights from a station along Lexington Avenue. The reason why is because two transfers are necessary: from the (4) to the (2) at 149th Street–Grand Concourse and then from the (2) to the (5) at East 180th Street. Does extending the (5) to Grand Central–42nd Street during weeknights have merit? This idea is reminiscent of the current service pattern along the 7th Avenue Line during weeknights, with the (1) and (2) operating local along the entire line, with the (3) serving only a portion of it from Times Square–42nd Street to Harlem–148th Street. The only difference here is that the (3) operates along two express sections; between Times Square–42nd Street and 72nd Street in addition to between 72nd Street and 96th Street, whereas there is no express service on any section of the Lexington Avenue Line during weeknights. Since Grand Central–42nd Street is an express station, the (5) could commence and terminate on the express tracks during weeknights in this configuration.

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2 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Currently, the setup along Lexington Avenue during weeknights is clear to everyone—both the (4) and (6) operate completely local along the entire Lexington Avenue Line on weeknights (if they aren't rerouted onto the express tracks in certain sections due to track work). However, it is difficult for a passenger to commute to a station along the Dyre Avenue Line during weeknights from a station along Lexington Avenue. The reason why is because two transfers are necessary: from the (4) to the (2) at 149th Street–Grand Concourse and then from the (2) to the (5) at East 180th Street. Does extending the (5) to Grand Central–42nd Street during weeknights have merit? This idea is reminiscent of the current service pattern along the 7th Avenue Line during weeknights, with the (1) and (2) operating local along the entire line, with the (3) serving only a portion of it from Times Square–42nd Street to Harlem–148th Street. The only difference here is that the (3) operates along two express sections; between Times Square–42nd Street and 72nd Street in addition to between 72nd Street and 96th Street, whereas there is no express service on any section of the Lexington Avenue Line during weeknights. Since Grand Central–42nd Street is an express station, the (5) could commence and terminate on the express tracks during weeknights in this configuration.

While 42nd does have a 4 track ladder it has marker signals covering every reverse move meaning trains cannot cross over and change directions. The switches from uptown to downtown may as well not be there. What you may want to do is send the (5) to BB and have the (6) terminate at 125th St lower level, with the 6 wrong railing back to 3rd Ave. Which is how the (6) used in the 90's, overnight service has come a long way since then.

Although I doubt enough people ride Dyre to justify.

Edited by Jsunflyguy

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29 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

While 42nd does have a 4 track ladder it has marker signals covering every reverse move meaning trains cannot cross over and change directions. The switches from uptown to downtown may as well not be there. What you may want to do is send the (5) to BB and have the (6) terminate at 125th St lower level, with the 6 wrong railing back to 3rd Ave. Which is how the (6) used in the 90's, overnight service has come a long way since then.

Although I doubt enough people ride Dyre to justify.

I did think of the issue of ridership along the Dyre Avenue Line, but the stations along the (2) north of East 180th Street, which are geographically closest to the stations on the Dyre Avenue Line, aren't particularly booming with activity either.

Edited by AlgorithmOfTruth

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IMO it makes sense to just extend the (5) to 149 St-Grand Concourse. It can use the middle track at 138th for turnarounds. 

Currently, it's a two legged transfer from Dyre to Lex, having to transfer to the (2) at E 180, and then the (4) at 149-GC. Extending the (5) will provide a transfer to the (4), just as how to (M) to Essex provides a transfer to the (F)

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Dyre ridership may be low, but how low is overnight ridership between 180th and 149th, and on Lexington Avenue? Remember this proposal wouldn't only benefit Dyre riders, but any overnight subway users between the Bronx and Manhattan. To me, this seems like the same rationale as sending the late-night (R) to Whitehall Street, or the weekend (M) to Essex, both of which have been popular decisions.

8 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

While 42nd does have a 4 track ladder it has marker signals covering every reverse move meaning trains cannot cross over and change directions. The switches from uptown to downtown may as well not be there. What you may want to do is send the (5) to BB and have the (6) terminate at 125th St lower level, with the 6 wrong railing back to 3rd Ave. Which is how the (6) used in the 90's, overnight service has come a long way since then.

Really? (5)s terminate at Grand Central all the time.

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2 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

Dyre ridership may be low, but how low is overnight ridership between 180th and 149th, and on Lexington Avenue? Remember this proposal wouldn't only benefit Dyre riders, but any overnight subway users between the Bronx and Manhattan. To me, this seems like the same rationale as sending the late-night (R) to Whitehall Street, or the weekend (M) to Essex, both of which have been popular decisions.

Really? (5)s terminate at Grand Central all the time.

Do they just go out of service there or turn back? images of the NX panel and the MTA schematics do not show this as a signaled move.

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2 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

Dyre ridership may be low, but how low is overnight ridership between 180th and 149th, and on Lexington Avenue? Remember this proposal wouldn't only benefit Dyre riders, but any overnight subway users between the Bronx and Manhattan. To me, this seems like the same rationale as sending the late-night (R) to Whitehall Street, or the weekend (M) to Essex, both of which have been popular decisions.

Really? (5)s terminate at Grand Central all the time.

Interesting on the (5)s.

One other option would be to have the (5) terminate late nights at 86th Street.  You can set up an OOS transfer on MetroCard between the two sides at 86th for the handful of people who would want to transfer from the (4)(6) to the (5) there.  

Another option would be to make the (4) express to Grand Central and have the (5) run local with the (6) late nights, with the (5) terminating at 59th Street, using the pocket track at 59th Street to turn such if you don't want to extend the (5) to Brooklyn Bridge or Bowling Green.  

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18 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Do they just go out of service there or turn back? images of the NX panel and the MTA schematics do not show this as a signaled move.

IIRC they run down onto the uptown track and reverse back. I am not sure how this works relative to signals. 

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36 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Interesting on the (5)s.

One other option would be to have the (5) terminate late nights at 86th Street.  You can set up an OOS transfer on MetroCard between the two sides at 86th for the handful of people who would want to transfer from the (4)(6) to the (5) there.  

Another option would be to make the (4) express to Grand Central and have the (5) run local with the (6) late nights, with the (5) terminating at 59th Street, using the pocket track at 59th Street to turn such if you don't want to extend the (5) to Brooklyn Bridge or Bowling Green.  

Relaying them at 86th is not a bad idea but I'd fumigate the (5) at 125 to avoid the MetroCard problem.

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45 minutes ago, RR503 said:

IIRC they run down onto the uptown track and reverse back. I am not sure how this works relative to signals. 

I looked for a few videos, the ones I found do have trains crossing over to the local then heading uptown as you indicate; so something must have changed since the 2010 Schematic and I must not have noticed as I don't frequent the station. 

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1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Interesting on the (5)s.

One other option would be to have the (5) terminate late nights at 86th Street.  You can set up an OOS transfer on MetroCard between the two sides at 86th for the handful of people who would want to transfer from the (4)(6) to the (5) there.  

Another option would be to make the (4) express to Grand Central and have the (5) run local with the (6) late nights, with the (5) terminating at 59th Street, using the pocket track at 59th Street to turn such if you don't want to extend the (5) to Brooklyn Bridge or Bowling Green.  

Grand Central is a far superior choice for a terminal than either 86th or 125th because of the connectivity offered there. It also lets you keep service as simple as possible: (4) and (6) via local, (5) on the express; no extra switching moves required.  

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33 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

Grand Central is a far superior choice for a terminal than either 86th or 125th because of the connectivity offered there. It also lets you keep service as simple as possible: (4) and (6) via local, (5) on the express; no extra switching moves required.  

Right, but it's been noted it's not easy to do, though late nights it would make the most sense if the (5) is the only train running on the express tracks.

Otherwise, I would use 86th or have the (4) run express to Grand Central while the (5) runs with the (6) to 59th and turn there via the pocket track. 

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2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Right, but it's been noted it's not easy to do, though late nights it would make the most sense if the (5) is the only train running on the express tracks.

Otherwise, I would use 86th or have the (4) run express to Grand Central while the (5) runs with the (6) to 59th and turn there via the pocket track. 

This whole discussion is about late night, so I think that it may be okay if we premise it on how easy things are during late nights. 

As for the other two suggestions, 86 is a messy relay spot, either requiring deadheading from 125, single tracking from 59, or the furnishing of an OOS xfer. 59 pocket would require 3 reversings, and thus should never be used unless the world is literally coming to an end.  

Hot take: just leave the current (5) be, and run the (2) and (4) at 4-5 tph throughout the night. 

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You'd have a stronger argument of extending the (5) to Brooklyn on weekends during daytime hours permanently after the Hurricane Sandy work is completed in the Clark Street tubes than to justify why extra crews should be paid to make that run carrying mostly empty trains. 

 

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5 hours ago, RR503 said:

This whole discussion is about late night, so I think that it may be okay if we premise it on how easy things are during late nights. 

As for the other two suggestions, 86 is a messy relay spot, either requiring deadheading from 125, single tracking from 59, or the furnishing of an OOS xfer. 59 pocket would require 3 reversings, and thus should never be used unless the world is literally coming to an end.  

Hot take: just leave the current (5) be, and run the (2) and (4) at 4-5 tph throughout the night. 

The issue is if the (2) runs at 4-5 TPH, mathematically it will miss at least one timed connection with the (5) every hour. Not the nail in the coffin (considering the Dyre branch's low ridership), but something to consider. 

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9 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The issue is if the (2) runs at 4-5 TPH, mathematically it will miss at least one timed connection with the (5) every hour. Not the nail in the coffin (considering the Dyre branch's low ridership), but something to consider. 

 

On 4/15/2018 at 1:00 AM, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Currently, the setup along Lexington Avenue during weeknights is clear to everyone—both the (4) and (6) operate completely local along the entire Lexington Avenue Line on weeknights (if they aren't rerouted onto the express tracks in certain sections due to track work). However, it is difficult for a passenger to commute to a station along the Dyre Avenue Line during weeknights from a station along Lexington Avenue. The reason why is because two transfers are necessary: from the (4) to the (2) at 149th Street–Grand Concourse and then from the (2) to the (5) at East 180th Street. Does extending the (5) to Grand Central–42nd Street during weeknights have merit? This idea is reminiscent of the current service pattern along the 7th Avenue Line during weeknights, with the (1) and (2) operating local along the entire line, with the (3) serving only a portion of it from Times Square–42nd Street to Harlem–148th Street. The only difference here is that the (3) operates along two express sections; between Times Square–42nd Street and 72nd Street in addition to between 72nd Street and 96th Street, whereas there is no express service on any section of the Lexington Avenue Line during weeknights. Since Grand Central–42nd Street is an express station, the (5) could commence and terminate on the express tracks during weeknights in this configuration.

I actually said the same thing about the (5) overnight service several months ago...But most gonna be like dyre av doesn't justify thru manhattan service which i can agree with...But ending it at just E.180 st is not cutting it nowadays either....Its not like absolutely no one useing it...If all they want is bronx only service for (5) trains it should run to at least 149 st grand concourse  for the (4) like every other branch has it in the city....

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On 4/15/2018 at 10:55 AM, Around the Horn said:

Its unnecessary... I think it was @Trainmaster5 who said the late night ridership doesn't even fill up one car.

Who in their right mind would use the Dyre Avenue stops when the service is knocked out more than it is running and the stations are in such desolate areas? When I had to be in the Morris Park area, if I missed the BxM10, I would just wait another hour for the next one rather than deal with the (5) train on late nights weekends or that stupid shuttle service.

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41 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Who in their right mind would use the Dyre Avenue stops when the service is knocked out more than it is running and the stations are in such desolate areas? When I had to be in the Morris Park area, if I missed the BxM10, I would just wait another hour for the next one rather than deal with the (5) train on late nights weekends or that stupid shuttle service.

You're more dedicated than I would be. If I lived along the Dyre line, I would have just bought a car.

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2 minutes ago, P3F said:

You're more dedicated than I would be. If I lived along the Dyre line, I would have just bought a car.

That's what most people in that area do... Service is so horrendous that most just drive.  It's not because there's a lack of demand as some are trying to say here.  Those people only use the train during rush hour to get to and from Manhattan, and outside of that on weekends or late nights, they are driving.  I was driven to the BxM10 myself a few times.  Nobody wants to put up with all of those transfers, and it takes forever to reach East 180th street as it is, let alone any other stops after that.  It is pure hell commuting up there by subway and having the Dyre Avenue line out all of the damn time just makes it worse.  The transportation is too atrocious for me to ever consider living there, but I had a colleague who lived in Morris Park. They just took the BxM10 whenever they had to come to the office.  

People also seem to forget that the subway stations on the Dyre Avenue line are generally outside of the neighborhoods.  The (5) does not stop in the heart of Morris Park or the other neighborhoods, so it can be a pain to reach the stations.  

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Gonna cut this discussion short with information that is still relevant from from 2016:

On 10/19/2016 at 5:58 PM, Wallyhorse said:

What could be done is actually extend the (5) to 86th Street and terminate/begin on the downtown express platform there in late nights.  Unless the express tracks are needed otherwise, it allows the transfer to the (4) and (6) going downtown there (uptown, that transfer can be made at 125th) without disrupting other service at 125th or 149th.  

 

If it's not too big of an issue to do late nights, the (5) could be extended to Grand Central then.

And the response from Late night (R) train service extended where the discussion digressed to extending the Dyre Avenue shuttle (most relevant posts on page 3):

On 6/20/2016 at 10:09 AM, CenSin said:
On 6/20/2016 at 9:30 AM, Wallyhorse said:

If you're going to have the (5) go to Grand Central, you might as well have it go to Brooklyn Bridge as the second Lexington local in the overnights while the (4) goes express at all times in Manhattan.  

 

The reason I brought up 86th is because you have a switch there that does allow the (5) to run on the express track there and terminate.  

Why not just 149 Street–Grand Concourse? The major options are there: (2) down the west side and (4) down the east side. 86 Street does not offer any additional transfer opportunities besides the (6). The next major attraction is Grand Central which adds access to the (7), (E), (N), and (R). But at that point, it would just make sense to make the trip all the way to Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall for a substantial increase in options; the choices would amount to: (2), (4), (6), (7), (D), (E), (F), (J), (L), (N), (Q), and (R). That is just a stone throw away from Bowling Green which would add a transfer to the (A). Beyond that, there are no additional transfer opportunities besides to the (S) in Brooklyn. But again, what is the load from Dyre Avenue anyway? Is it so important that the full array of options must be offered at quadruple/pentuple/sextuple the expense?

 

I think 149 Street–Grand Concourse gives the rider 2 Manhattan options, which is decent enough. Other additions are just luxurious toppings.

On 6/20/2016 at 10:30 AM, CenSin said:

The extension of the (R) to South Ferry–Whitehall Street gives many more options relative to the expense incurred. A mere 9-station extension offers additional transfers to the (1), (2), (4), (A), (F), (G), and (Q). The (5) would have to be extended 25 stations (to 14 Street–Union Square) to give a comparable assortment of options, but having no switch for turning back, the trains would have to be extended 30 stations to terminate at Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall which is more than half the full route!

On 6/20/2016 at 9:49 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Main reason I said 86th is because then the (5) can use the express tracks (and it involves only opening the downtown side at 86th on the express level) and be able to terminate where it can switch tracks without any potential interference of other lines.  Plus you could be doing that with an OOS transfer between the Lex and SAS for those specifically looking for the (Q) along the SAS and it would only be three extra stops.  

 

I'm sure there would be a good number on the (5) to 149 who would stay on the (5) to 86th and switch there to the (4) or (6) and especially the (6) if they just missed it at 125.

On 6/20/2016 at 11:03 PM, CenSin said:
On 6/20/2016 at 9:49 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Main reason I said 86th is because then the (5) can use the express tracks (and it involves only opening the downtown side at 86th on the express level) and be able to terminate where it can switch tracks without any potential interference of other lines.

Let’s explore the costs–benefits relationship further…

 

(5) extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse

Provides (relative to just turning at East 180 Street):

  • 1 additional transfer option: (4)
  • Provides additional service at 9 additional stations along White Plains Road.

Costs (relative to just turning at East 180 Street):

  • 9 additional stations
  • Use of the center track at 138 Street–Grand Concourse
  • Potential conflict with the (4) in both directions by using the center track to turn; it has to merge first

(5) extension to 86 Street

Provides (relative to an extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse):

  • Provides additional service at 3 additional stations along Lexington Avenue.
  • 1 additional transfers option: (6) back to the Bronx
  • Half the waiting time to transfer to trains heading downtown

Costs (relative to an extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse):

  • Use of the center track at 138 Street–Grand Concourse
  • 7 additional stations worth of trackage, 4 of which are skipped
  • Use of the express tracks, which may be needed for work trains and maintenance (think of the track workers and efficiency)
  • No transfer between the uptown and downtown platforms; (5) helps nobody going to the Bronx until 125 Street
On 6/20/2016 at 9:49 PM, Wallyhorse said:

it can switch tracks without any potential interference of other lines.

No it can’t. It merges with the (4) still. It’s no better than the extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse in this regard.

On 6/20/2016 at 9:49 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Plus you could be doing that with an OOS transfer between the Lex and SAS for those specifically looking for the (Q) along the SAS and it would only be three extra stops. 

A transfer to the (Q) can’t be listed as a benefit. By the time a person walks to the station, they would have been better off waiting for the (4) or (6) to Lexington Avenue–59 Street or 14 Street–Union Square. The combined headways make an average 5-minute wait. It takes 5 minutes to walk over there along the surface and then an additional minute to descend. Keep in mind that the use case scenarios for this kind of transfer are limited since there are better (or equivalent) alternatives in all the cases:

  • 96 Street to Lexington Avenue/63 Street: walk
  • 5 Avenue/59 Street: walk
  • 57 Street–7 Avenue to Broadway/28 Street: transfer to the (2) and walk
  • 28 Street and 23 Street: transfer to the (4) or (6) and walk
  • 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the (4) or (6)
  • Beyond 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the (Q) in-system

Unless the walk along 86 Street is somehow special; all the instances where I suggest to walk are the same distance as the walk from Lexington Avenue/86 Street to 2 Avenue/86 Street.

On 6/20/2016 at 9:49 PM, Wallyhorse said:

I'm sure there would be a good number on the (5) to 149 who would stay on the (5) to 86th and switch there to the (4) or (6) and especially the (6) if they just missed it at 125.

I wouldn’t count on that. Track work happens during overnight hours. It’s going to be on the express tracks, local tracks, or both. In any case, the flagged zones are going to slow down trains. I wouldn’t count on an express train making promising gains against a local at that time.

So relative to the 9-station extension, the 16-station extension to 86 Street only provides service to an additional 3 stations, a transfer to the (6) back to the Bronx, and half the waiting time to transfer to/from trains downtown.

 

The head-scratcher is why you draw the line at 86 Street as opposed to some more juicy choice like Grand Central–42 Street?? For 5 more stops (3 of which are skipped) on top of the extension to 86 Street, you get 3 more transfers.

  • 9 stops, +1 transfer
  • 16 stops, +2 transfers
  • 21 stops, +5 transfers

You do the math.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:15 AM, Trainmaster5 said:

From my personal experience the load from Dyre Avenue to East 180th St s/b doesn't fill one car s/b from midnight to 4 am. This is including Friday and Saturday nights. There was actually an extra trip added to the (5) shuttle because there was a time when they ran a 30 minute headway during the 3am to 4am time frame. IMO there's no justification to run the (5) shuttle south of East 180th St. I've worked it as a C/R and a M/M in the midnights and the ridership just doesn't call for that type of extension. Where is this new trip generator located?  Let's get back to the (R) .Carry on.

The response was to the same thing proposed 4 months before that:

On 6/20/2016 at 9:30 AM, Wallyhorse said:

If you're going to have the (5) go to Grand Central, you might as well have it go to Brooklyn Bridge as the second Lexington local in the overnights while the (4) goes express at all times in Manhattan.  

 

The reason I brought up 86th is because you have a switch there that does allow the (5) to run on the express track there and terminate.  

Edited by CenSin
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Another option is to extend the (5) to 149 St - GC on weekday late nights (Monday - Thursday), extend the (5) to Bowling Green on weekend late nights (after the Clark Street Tunnel reopens). if MTA is willing to permanently have a different (5) schedule for Friday evenings like they currently do now.

At the very least the (5) should run to/from Bowling Green later on Friday and Saturday late evenings (and earlier on Sunday mornings) as it has been doing so for almost the past year. Due to GOs the (5) can't run to/from Manhattan any later Monday - Thursday, in fact it has been ending earlier almost every weeknight.

Maybe that would be the compromise run the (5) later to/from Manhattan Friday - Sunday, but end it earlier Monday - Thursday. 

Edited by GreatOne2k

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