Declines in express, local bus ridership

[Union Tpke]

Screen Shot 2019-09-22 at 6.21.13 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2019-09-22 at 6.21.20 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

Screen Shot 2019-09-22 at 6.21.13 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2019-09-22 at 6.21.20 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Geez I wonder why?? Could it be that they have too many missing trips??? 

[Future ENY OP]

It’s simple. The  is not creating new routes to pick up the demand of Ubers, Lyfts, vias, and Juno with getting passengers. Meanwhile you have cities like Philadelphia and Washington DC addressing those problems. 

[Cait Sith]

15 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

It’s simple. The  is not creating new routes to pick up the demand of Ubers, Lyfts, vias, and Juno with getting passengers. Meanwhile you have cities like Philadelphia and Washington DC addressing those problems. 

Actually, Philadelphia isn't quite doing that, same with DC.....DC is mostly focused on the Metrorail and the Silver Line extension, bus service hasn't changed much if at all, and there hasn't been much done to address the transit vs rideshare schtick. Philadelphia has similar problems like us with the buses vs rideshare companies and they haven't done much yet to rectify the situation. WMATA is also partnered with Lyft.

Them not creating new routes is not the problem. Cutting buses is a big contributor as to why there's a decline in ridership, along with neverending traffic congestion in the city and buses being perpetually late and crowded. And regardless of what they do, Uber/Lyft and other rideshares will still beat them to the punch because of the reasons mentioned, and because of the level of convenience they bring compared to most bus routes.

[Brillant93]

I don’t know how ride sharing is that much attractive when itself is expensive? On top of that waiting for one takes the same amount of time as a bus almost if you’re sharing it, never the less some divers will cancel your ride based off of how much your ride cost. 

Its like people who prefer amazon when they live in a city where shopping for things are blocks away compared to people who live in rural places. You spend more for what is advertised as “efficient” 

[B35 via Church]

21 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

It’s simple. The  is not creating new routes to pick up the demand of Ubers, Lyfts, vias, and Juno with getting passengers.....

The inaction of addressing latent demand doesn't explain ridership losses....

Sure, there are people that have ditched utilizing mass transit for the ridesharing services instead... At the same time though, we can't always assume that someone opting to use the Uber's, Lyft's, etc. of the world, even want to utilize public transportation.... It's easy to get a little caught up in that belief & mindset, being that we're public transit enthusiasts....

5 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

.....Cutting buses is a big contributor as to why there's a decline in ridership, along with neverending traffic congestion in the city and buses being perpetually late and crowded. And regardless of what they do, Uber/Lyft and other rideshares will still beat them to the punch because of the reasons mentioned, and because of the level of convenience they bring compared to most bus routes.

You will have people that say that a $2.75 base fare is still rather low, all things considered..... However, when you have as many commuters feeling as if they're STILL not getting what they pay for, in terms of quantity, quality, whatever....

Well..... Houston, we have a problem.

...and the ongoing, cumulative plummeting of ridership portrayed in that chart & with the MTA's own individual route ridership statistics, is proof of it.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

I don’t know how ride sharing is that much attractive when itself is expensive? On top of that waiting for one takes the same amount of time as a bus almost if you’re sharing it, never the less some divers will cancel your ride based off of how much your ride cost. 

Its like people who prefer amazon when they live in a city where shopping for things are blocks away compared to people who live in rural places. You spend more for what is advertised as “efficient” 

Ride sharing can make a ton of sense depending on your location.  When I have to be in Hudson Heights, sometimes I get an Uber going home. I do either a Pool if I'm up for sharing a car, but most times an UberX because I want a car to myself.  However, the Pool option is not only really cheap, but sometimes you don't share the car with anyone, so it is worth giving it a shot if you don't mind walking a few minutes more or a slightly longer ride.  From Hudson Heights to Riverdale, usually a Pool comes in at about $8.00 or $9.00, assuming I have no discounts on my account (I ride enough that I usually do).  It's a 15-20 minute ride with a Pool and about 10-15 with a UberX.  The wait for a car is maybe 5 minutes tops. Compare that to the subway to bus ride OR what I usually do, which is head to Midtown for a stop before getting the express bus back.  Whether it is a Pool or an UberX, I am always picked up right at my location, so no walking. With the subway to the bus, or subway to express bus, I have at least a 10 minute walk to the subway, then the wait. Take train to 207th or the train back sotuh, then wait some more for a local bus or an express bus. Even the subway to the local bus can easily be 45 minutes to an hour door-to-door, so for a few bucks more it makes sense to just take an Uber. Even with an Uber Pool, the worse thing I get is being dropped off down the block from my place. I think I can walk an extra minute for the convenience and savings.

Uber also now has a monthly pass at $24 which I am definitely considering. It basically caps your trips, so if you need a car during peak times, you shouldn't be zapped with surge charges.  In the worst case scenario, if you don't like the pass or find yourself commuting less than expected, you can cancel it at any time. That works out to less than a dollar a month. Not a bad deal, and then of course whatever your car rides cost when you use Uber.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[FamousNYLover]

I think because it went coinless.

One time when I saw on S40 Bus to Snug Harbor, I asked B/O if anyone using OMY or contactless cards, bus driver says no.

I'll try SIM express buses very soon.

I wonder if MTA didn't forget to put OMNY for Academy SIM23/SIM24.

Edited September 25, 2019 by FamousNYLover

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, FamousNYLover said:

I think because it went coinless.

One time when I saw on S40 Bus to Snug Harbor, I asked B/O if anyone using OMY or contactless cards, bus driver says no.

I'll try SIM express buses very soon.

I wonder if MTA didn't forget to put OMNY for Academy SIM23/SIM24.

How could they "forget" to put OMNY on express buses that they don't operate?  Academy runs the SIM23/SIM24, not the .

[bobtehpanda]

On 9/24/2019 at 1:17 AM, Cait Sith said:

Actually, Philadelphia isn't quite doing that, same with DC.....DC is mostly focused on the Metrorail and the Silver Line extension, bus service hasn't changed much if at all, and there hasn't been much done to address the transit vs rideshare schtick. Philadelphia has similar problems like us with the buses vs rideshare companies and they haven't done much yet to rectify the situation. WMATA is also partnered with Lyft.

Them not creating new routes is not the problem. Cutting buses is a big contributor as to why there's a decline in ridership, along with neverending traffic congestion in the city and buses being perpetually late and crowded. And regardless of what they do, Uber/Lyft and other rideshares will still beat them to the punch because of the reasons mentioned, and because of the level of convenience they bring compared to most bus routes.

SEPTA is doing a redesign process.

[Trainmaster5]

On 9/24/2019 at 8:25 AM, Brillant93 said:

I don’t know how ride sharing is that much attractive when itself is expensive? On top of that waiting for one takes the same amount of time as a bus almost if you’re sharing it, never the less some divers will cancel your ride based off of how much your ride cost. 

Its like people who prefer amazon when they live in a city where shopping for things are blocks away compared to people who live in rural places. You spend more for what is advertised as “efficient” 

The part you're overlooking boils down to two things. " Comfort" and "convenience" . Let's say I'm located near Pennsylvania and Flatlands Avenue in Spring Creek. IIRC you're familiar with the area. Okay my destination is Kings Plaza. I own a car, or have a few bucks in my pocket. I'm a supporter of better mass transit but my question to you is as follows. Do I take a B82 or B6 bus to Ralph Avenue and transfer to a s/b B47 ? Choice #2 is to use a car service for the same trip ( I have the ducats). Choice #3 is to take my own vehicle, turn on the XM radio and travel at my own convenience. You make the choice. BTW I shop at Best Buy, Microcenter, and Amazon. Depends on price and convenience, at least to me. YMMV but your blanket statement doesn't apply all the time. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

[Brillant93]

7 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The part you're overlooking boils down to two things. " Comfort" and "convenience" . Let's say I'm located near Pennsylvania and Flatlands Avenue in Spring Creek. IIRC you're familiar with the area. Okay my destination is Kings Plaza. I own a car, or have a few bucks in my pocket. I'm a supporter of better mass transit but my question to you is as follows. Do I take a B82 or B6 bus to Ralph Avenue and transfer to a s/b B47 ? Choice #2 is to use a car service for the same trip ( I have the ducats). Choice #3 is to take my own vehicle, turn on the XM radio and travel at my own convenience. You make the choice. BTW I shop at Best Buy, Microcenter, and Amazon. Depends on price and convenience, at least to me. YMMV but your blanket statement doesn't apply all the time. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

Why would you go to kings plaza when you have the gateway mall, like, literally, right, there? convenience? You do realize that parking in KP isn’t free? Opposed to Gateway? Again you’re spending money on things you don’t have to. 

On top of that I live by KP and I personally don’t need to go to gateway because KP is a better option because I haven several bus lines that go directly there, even coming home from work.

Now if you used an example such as someone going to work during rush hour, explain to me why would a person always take a Lyft or Uber when they literally charge more during those times? Even going to another borough such as manhattan or to an airport they charged very high. I can get to the city or another borough for $2.75 opposed to paying $6-60.    

[S78 via Hylan]

51 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Now if you used an example such as someone going to work during rush hour, explain to me why would a person always take a Lyft or Uber when they literally charge more during those times? Even going to another borough such as manhattan or to an airport they charged very high. I can get to the city or another borough for $2.75 opposed to paying $6-60.    

Some folks would rather spend the extra money, use their personal vehicle, or even carpool to reach their destination quicker without being delayed or stuck in traffic. As it was noted, it boils down to comfort and convenience.

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

SEPTA is doing a redesign process.

Everybody is doing some redesign process.... Copycat regime.
(news to me about Philly in-particular, though)

9 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The part you're overlooking boils down to two things. " Comfort" and "convenience" . Let's say I'm located near Pennsylvania and Flatlands Avenue in Spring Creek. IIRC you're familiar with the area. Okay my destination is Kings Plaza. I own a car, or have a few bucks in my pocket. I'm a supporter of better mass transit but my question to you is as follows. Do I take a B82 or B6 bus to Ralph Avenue and transfer to a s/b B47 ? Choice #2 is to use a car service for the same trip ( I have the ducats). Choice #3 is to take my own vehicle, turn on the XM radio and travel at my own convenience. You make the choice. BTW I shop at Best Buy, Microcenter, and Amazon. Depends on price and convenience, at least to me. YMMV but your blanket statement doesn't apply all the time. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

I would never take mass transit if I wanted comfort.... Having been on and/or otherwise perused all these different transit forums for however long it's been over the years, I never really quite understood how (or more, why) anyone would/could justify comfort as it pertains to (taking) public transit.... As long as I'm around the general public, the feeling of comfort I find to be rather unattainable..... I don't want to go on a diatribe here, but I find that people in general are WAYYYYYYY too trusting.....

Comfort wouldn't be a reason I would opt for some car service, either... Hell, comfort isn't even the reason I gave up on the LIRR, etc. & have resorted to driving to work 5-6 days a week instead..... Still have to be extra aware of jackasses on the road; not exactly comforting.....

Given your example there.... Well as with anything, it would depend on my mood - but what I can tell you is that car service would be the last option of the 3 & cost would have squat to do with it.... It would only really be considered if I'm not driving & are tagging along with friends/acquaintances or family (if they want to opt to take car service over a bunch of buses, which is usually the case).....

If I'm particularly going shopping & know I'm gonna be picking up some things, well driving it is.... Days of stopping off in some mall in the middle of a busfan trip (for example) & lugging a bag or two (other than my shoulder bag) on multiple buses before I get home, are done.... Turns out the uncle was right - you get old, you get lazy..... Furthermore, I find myself getting more & more miffed seeing people with 50 million bags on the bus (and worse having to step over them when they're blocking the aisle).....

15 minutes ago, S78 via Hylan said:

Some folks would rather spend the extra money, use their personal vehicle, or even carpool to reach their destination quicker without being delayed or stuck in traffic. As it was noted, it boils down to comfort and convenience.

I mean, if you aint got it, you aint got it..... But aside from that situation & stipulation, generally speaking, I'm one of these people that would quote-unquote rather spend the money, over being frugal.... This isn't to say that I have millions of dollars on deck, or are ridiculously undisciplined with money to the point where I'm in any real/serious debt or anything like that though...

Edited September 26, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Brillant93]

8 minutes ago, S78 via Hylan said:

Some folks would rather spend the extra money, use their personal vehicle, or even carpool to reach their destination quicker without being delayed or stuck in traffic. As it was noted, it boils down to comfort and convenience.

You can be stuck in the same traffic as a bus in nyc nowadays. Of course it’s about comfort, but convenience, to me is subjective. For others alike spending money on ridesharing would be a financial burden unlike those who have money to burn like that. One of the reasons why I don’t go out at night often is because the money I have to spend on an Uber is creeping up to what I used to spend on regular taxis. Why I also brought up the Amazon example in an urban city was that in an urban city you can get almost anything where everything is within a few block radius. Some people think it’s a convenience to shop online and wait for something they could have gotten the same day if they would have just went to the store and got it. But to them being home and not leaving their chairs is comfort that I understand but in the end you’ll end up paying more. 

[Trainmaster5]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Everybody is doing some redesign process.... Copycat regime.
(news to me about Philly in-particular, though)

I would never take mass transit if I wanted comfort.... Having been on and/or otherwise perused all these different transit forums for however long it's been over the years, I never really quite understood how (or more, why) anyone would/could justify comfort as it pertains to (taking) public transit.... As long as I'm around the general public, the feeling of comfort I find to be rather unattainable..... I don't want to go on a diatribe here, but I find that people in general are WAYYYYYYY too trusting.....

Comfort wouldn't be a reason I would opt for some car service, either... Hell, comfort isn't even the reason I gave up on the LIRR, etc. & have resorted to driving to work 5-6 days a week instead..... Still have to be extra aware of jackasses on the road; not exactly comforting.....

Given your example there.... Well as with anything, it would depend on my mood - but what I can tell you is that car service would be the last option of the 3 & cost would have squat to do with it.... It would only really be considered if I'm not driving & are tagging along with friends/acquaintances or family (if they want to opt to take car service over a bunch of buses, which is usually the case).....

If I'm particularly going shopping & know I'm gonna be picking up some things, well driving it is.... Days of stopping off in some mall in the middle of a busfan trip (for example) & lugging a bag or two (other than my shoulder bag) on multiple buses before I get home, are done.... Turns out the uncle was right - you get old, you get lazy..... Furthermore, I find myself getting more & more miffed seeing people with 50 million bags on the bus (and worse having to step over them when they're blocking the aisle).....

I mean, if you aint got it, you aint got it..... But aside from that situation & stipulation, generally speaking, I'm one of these people that would quote-unquote rather spend the money, over being frugal.... This isn't to say that I have millions of dollars on deck, or are ridiculously undisciplined with money to the point where I'm in any real/serious debt or anything like that though...

Your reasoning about shopping and bus travel hits the proverbial nail on the head. Rode a B26 operated by a family member this summer from Broadway to Downtown Brooklyn.  Had to cut him loose on the return trip when the shoppers,  the rugrats, and the bags took over most of the space. He teased me afterwards when he pointed out the difference between a M/M and a B/O.  I was secluded from the general public but he was in the midst of it. His father,  a B/O , was the one that told me to go the RTO route in the first place. His father and I are going to get together with another retired B/O and bus fan in Brooklyn after the Christmas shopping season 😁. We may be old but we ain't stupid. Carry on. 

[FamousNYLover]

On 9/25/2019 at 11:22 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

How could they "forget" to put OMNY on express buses that they don't operate?  Academy runs the SIM23/SIM24, not the .

Academy Bus on SIM23/SIM24 uses MTA Farebox. Academy B/O on SIM23/SIM24 have to tell them they're with  or otherwise NYPD Traffic Police give them ticket.

[B35 via Church]

27 minutes ago, FamousNYLover said:

Academy Bus on SIM23/SIM24 uses MTA Farebox....

Yeah, and so does NICE & Bee-Line......

That doesn't mean those services are operated by the MTA.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

34 minutes ago, FamousNYLover said:

Academy Bus on SIM23/SIM24 uses MTA Farebox. Academy B/O on SIM23/SIM24 have to tell them they're with  or otherwise NYPD Traffic Police give them ticket.

Not following... What does any of that have to do with drivers getting a ticket? If they operating in a manner that precipitates them receiving a ticket, then whether they are with Academy or the is irrevelant.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, and so does NICE & Bee-Line......

That doesn't mean those services are operated by the MTA.

 

The fareboxes are the only thing that they may share with the  . The routing and all of that is decided by Academy.

[B35 via Church]

25 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The fareboxes are the only thing that they may share with the  . The routing and all of that is decided by Academy.

Of course.....

27 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Not following... What does any of that have to do with drivers getting a ticket? If they operating in a manner that precipitates them receiving a ticket, then whether they are with Academy or the is irrevelant.

Nothing.

SIM23/SIM24 ops aren't going out of their way to notify traffic cops that they're operating those routes in some attempt at some fallacious exemption..... Nor is there some overlooking of putting OMNY on those Academy buses....

Edited September 27, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Of course.....

Nothing.

SIM23/SIM24 ops aren't going out of their way to notify traffic cops that they're operating those routes in some attempt at some fallacious exemption..... Nor is there some overlooking of putting OMNY on those Academy buses....

Some people are so misinformed...

[Future ENY OP]

21 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Of course.....

Nothing.

SIM23/SIM24 ops aren't going out of their way to notify traffic cops that they're operating those routes in some attempt at some fallacious exemption..... Nor is there some overlooking of putting OMNY on those Academy buses....

.... and besides I can’t remember a time an Academy bus b/o getting a ticket from traffic cops. At most times Academy buses get more preference especially downtown heading to the Holland Tunnel. They block the box and no tickets are issued for them.  

[Gotham Bus Co.]

ATU Local 1056 tried to address shifting ridership patterns in the early 2000s by filing a grievance against NYCT because, literally, "the passengers aren't riding correctly."  It didn't get far.