Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[LTA1992]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

Have the buses farebox recovery ratio dropped since free transfers were instituted?  Before Metrocard Gold, most of Queens was a two fare zone, so the MTA got a fare for the Bus and the Subway, which is why many walked, got dropped off, or took a dollar cab to the subway.

Even though free transfers significantly boosted bus ridership, did the farebox recovery drop drastically because of the free transfers?

This also brings up the bus-bus transfers. Bus transfers were 25 cents, so many riders preferred a one seat ride to save money, now it's not as much of a concern.

With Unlimited cards, how do they determine which mode or entity gets revenue? (ie, Subway, Bus, Nice, Beeline)

With PPR cards, do they simply split revenue when a transfer is made? (ie. $1.37 each for NYCTBus and Subway?)

You know, I've brought similar points up (on other forums) and they always get passed by.

Especially with OMNY (and it opening up the possibility of unlimited transfers over a 2-hour period) on the horizon.

Why do we need direct routings if free transfers open up the flexibility needed to not have them? The benefits definitely outweigh the cons.

Edited January 4, 2020 by LTA1992

[Gotham Bus Co.]

7 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

Especially with OMNY (and it opening up the possibility of unlimited transfers over a 2-hour period) on the horizon.

Why do we need direct routings if free transfers open up the flexibility needed to not have them? The benefits definitely outweigh the cons.

 

On the one hand, I have always favored replacing transfer privileges with a time-based pass. (If Denver RTD can give 3 hours, so can MTA.)

 

On the other hand, forcing transfers (even free transfers) lengthens the time needed to complete a trip, quite possibly to the point where people go back to their cars.

[paulrivera]

10 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Was it because it was "free"? Or because it's peak travel season?

Little bit of both.

 

17 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

When is the Q70 actually ever fare free, when 99.9% of customers are transferring from the subway...

The farebox recovery ratio must be trash, but as long as people keep dipping their cards/tapping their passes, they'll have to cater to the demand eventually even if it doesn't make a profit.

I'm sure it bleeds money overnight tho (LGA doesn't have passenger flights overnight coming or going), but since it's a pet project of the Governor, of course it'll keep running every 20 minutes at that hour. I guess they'll cut whatever local line's left over (overnight) to make it neutral.

Edited January 5, 2020 by paulrivera

[Gotham Bus Co.]

18 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

The farebox recovery ratio must be trash, but as long as people keep dipping their cards/tapping their passes, they'll have to cater to the demand eventually even if it doesn't make a profit.

I'm sure it bleeds money overnight tho (LGA doesn't have passenger flights overnight coming or going), but since it's a pet project of the Governor, of course it'll keep running every 20 minutes at that hour. I guess they'll cut whatever local line's left over (overnight) to make it neutral.

 

There is still overnight support work (e.g. maintenance, cleaning, security) at the airport and those employees need to travel to/from their jobs.

[N6 Limited]

I thought about something regarding the Blue Routes. 

I remember when NICE changed the N6 Limited to N6 Express, It went non-stop from 179th Street to Westminster Rd. 😕 It bypassed all the ridership, they were trying to attract new riders, but they didn't realize (or maybe they did?) most riders weren't going from end to end. The ridership consists of overlapping trips between Jamaica- Queens Village -Elmont-Franklin Square-Hempstead.  The turnover kept the buses full throughout (maybe that's why they thought it would work?)

The buses were empty,  the locals were packed and flagging like crazy. (I'm sure that contributed to the ridership drop). They had to begrudgingly add back stop after stop til ridership balanced out. They still use the N1 as an excuse to not add back Locustwood Blvd. 

Even when they started adding stops, the order was dumb. I think the first one was Meacham Ave., while it did get good ridership on the Limited, it only worked concertedly the other stops because they offered more valuable transfers. (ie N25, Springfield Blvd, Hillside and Francis Lewis, Elmont Rd). 

Maybe this will be different since they're not bypassing all of the transfer points.

 

[Brillant93]

43 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

I thought about something regarding the Blue Routes. 

I remember when NICE changed the N6 Limited to N6 Express, It went non-stop from 179th Street to Westminster Rd. 😕 It bypassed all the ridership, they were trying to attract new riders, but they didn't realize (or maybe they did?) most riders weren't going from end to end. The ridership consists of overlapping trips between Jamaica- Queens Village -Elmont-Franklin Square-Hempstead.  The turnover kept the buses full throughout (maybe that's why they thought it would work?)

The buses were empty,  the locals were packed and flagging like crazy. (I'm sure that contributed to the ridership drop). They had to begrudgingly add back stop after stop til ridership balanced out. They still use the N1 as an excuse to not add back Locustwood Blvd. 

Even when they started adding stops, the order was dumb. I think the first one was Meacham Ave., while it did get good ridership on the Limited, it only worked concertedly the other stops because they offered more valuable transfers. (ie N25, Springfield Blvd, Hillside and Francis Lewis, Elmont Rd). 

Maybe this will be different since they're not bypassing all of the transfer points.

 

They’re not. It looks like there’s gonna be overlapping routes with those routes as well. It’s not too far off from the limited routes they have now. 

[Around the Horn]

On January 4, 2020 at 7:25 AM, Lawrence St said:

When is the Q70 actually ever fare free, when 99.9% of customers are transferring from the subway...

That's exactly the point though... Why bother with fare collection on the Q70 if 99.9% of passengers have already paid or will pay when they get to the subway?

[bobtehpanda]

23 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

You know, I've brought similar points up (on other forums) and they always get passed by.

Especially with OMNY (and it opening up the possibility of unlimited transfers over a 2-hour period) on the horizon.

Why do we need direct routings if free transfers open up the flexibility needed to not have them? The benefits definitely outweigh the cons.

Because each additional transfer has a penalty to riders.

In the best-case scenario where all the services you're connecting to run every 10 minutes:

• on a one-transfer ride, the maximum penalty is 10 minutes.
• on a two-transfer ride, the maximum penalty is 20 minutes.
• on a three-transfer ride, the maximum penalty is 30 minutes.

And so on and so forth. Adding a potential additional ten or twenty minutes to someone's commute is most likely just going to get them to switch to rideshare or the car. And this is assuming that all of your routes are even running that frequently.

Jarett Walker is possibly the most known proponent of adding transfers for some people, and even his ideal network only contains, at most, one transfer. And several of his redesign consultations got feedback and were revised to reduce trips that needed more than one transfer.

[paulrivera]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

That's exactly the point though... Why bother with fare collection on the Q70 if 99.9% of passengers have already paid or will pay when they get to the subway?

Metrocard dips are the primary way of measuring ridership.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

I thought about something regarding the Blue Routes. 

I remember when NICE changed the N6 Limited to N6 Express, It went non-stop from 179th Street to Westminster Rd. 😕 It bypassed all the ridership, they were trying to attract new riders, but they didn't realize (or maybe they did?) most riders weren't going from end to end. The ridership consists of overlapping trips between Jamaica- Queens Village -Elmont-Franklin Square-Hempstead.  The turnover kept the buses full throughout (maybe that's why they thought it would work?)

The buses were empty,  the locals were packed and flagging like crazy. (I'm sure that contributed to the ridership drop). They had to begrudgingly add back stop after stop til ridership balanced out. They still use the N1 as an excuse to not add back Locustwood Blvd. 

Even when they started adding stops, the order was dumb. I think the first one was Meacham Ave., while it did get good ridership on the Limited, it only worked concertedly the other stops because they offered more valuable transfers. (ie N25, Springfield Blvd, Hillside and Francis Lewis, Elmont Rd). 

Maybe this will be different since they're not bypassing all of the transfer points.

That's just it - I'm not so sure if NICE was trying to attract new riders with that rendition of the n6x, as much as it was them trying to exploit a narrow, existing market (people taking n6's as an alternative to taking the LIRR) between Hempstead & Jamaica.... Cold hard reality hit them in the face when those n6x's carried light.... What worked with the n22 express service (generally speaking) didn't work with the n6.... As you know, the n6 has much more quote-unquote intermediate patronage between Hempstead & Jamaica than the n22 does between say, RFM & Jamaica....

The very emptiness you're talking about with that rendition of that n6, is what I would be worried about with some of these blue routes... When you're losing ridership system-wide like the MTA, you can't afford to try to target too many niche markets with local routes.... It's one thing to have variants of, or certain trips of current routes skipping stops, but when you have routes with no local variants doing what these purple & blue routes are doing, I'd say it's quite risky - especially with as out of touch with its riderbases that the MTA is.... OTOH, give NICE enough resources & I guarantee that they'd shit on the MTA in that category....

Regardless, what the city needs to do is roll out all these bus lanes I'm hearing that they're supposed to be coming out with.....

[bobtehpanda]

9 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The very emptiness you're talking about with that rendition of that n6, is what I would be worried about with some of these blue routes... When you're losing ridership system-wide like the MTA, you can't afford to try to target too many niche markets with local routes.... It's one thing to have variants of, or certain trips of current routes skipping stops, but when you have routes with no local variants doing what these purple & blue routes are doing, I'd say it's quite risky - especially with as out of touch with its riderbases that the MTA is.... OTOH, give NICE enough resources & I guarantee that they'd shit on the MTA in that category....

Making the blue routes closed-door rather than just completely express would alleviate at least some of these concerns.

[Lawrence St]

Taking a look at some of the other routes:

QT81:

Seems like they still haven't learned that the Q19 is a high ridership route and refuse to give it better headways then a bus every 20 minutes.  They even merged it with another route, and didn't even change the headways. And traffic can sometimes get worse along Roosevelt Av, At LEAST have it run every 10 minutes during rush hour...

QT14:

What are they doing calling this an Airport Route? It don't even stop inside the dam airport, and if they ain't going to make a free transfer or something to the AirTrain, don't even bother.

[jaf0519]

10 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Taking a look at some of the other routes:

QT81:

Seems like they still haven't learned that the Q19 is a high ridership route and refuse to give it better headways then a bus every 20 minutes.  They even merged it with another route, and didn't even change the headways. And traffic can sometimes get worse along Roosevelt Av, At LEAST have it run every 10 minutes during rush hour...

QT14:

What are they doing calling this an Airport Route? It don't even stop inside the dam airport, and if they ain't going to make a free transfer or something to the AirTrain, don't even bother.

The Q19 is currently one of the few routes that makes a profit, so that’s why they probably aren’t going to change the headway’s for it.

The Airtrain is already free at Lefferts Blvd Station.

[Lawrence St]

13 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

The Q19 is currently one of the few routes that makes a profit, so that’s why they probably aren’t going to change the headway’s for it.

The Airtrain is already free at Lefferts Blvd Station.

But the Q19 has good ridership, and the M60 is always a pain to use because it's always either delayed from the Bridge or from LGA.

The AirTrain is free at Lefferts Blvd but not at Howard Beach ? What type of backwards logic is that?

[jaf0519]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

But the Q19 has good ridership, and the M60 is always a pain to use because it's always either delayed from the Bridge or from LGA.

The AirTrain is free at Lefferts Blvd but not at Howard Beach ? What type of backwards logic is that?

The Airtrain only makes you pay at Jamaica/Sutphin-Archer  and Howard Beach  regardless of entering or exiting.

The Lefferts Blvd Airtrain station has no subway connection, only the current Q10 LTD and B15, and is located by the JFK Long Term Parking Lot, so it is treated as a airport station, therefore it is free.

[N6 Limited]

Jackson Heights has a petition up about the changes. Mostly about how they lose access to 74th Roosevelt, and that the  stations the buses are rerouted to aren't accessible.

[BrooklynBus]

7 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Jackson Heights has a petition up about the changes. Mostly about how they lose access to 74th Roosevelt, and that the  stations the buses are rerouted to aren't accessible.

How does one go about seeing the petition?

[paulrivera]

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Taking a look at some of the other routes:

QT14:

What are they doing calling this an Airport Route? It don't even stop inside the dam airport, and if they ain't going to make a free transfer or something to the AirTrain, don't even bother.

The Airtrain transfer at Lefferts Blvd is free, but off hour service is way too infrequent.

[paulrivera]

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The AirTrain is free at Lefferts Blvd but not at Howard Beach ? What type of backwards logic is that?

You're not from here, are you? 

[Lawrence St]

8 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

You're not from here, are you? 

Queens born and raised thank you very much.

When I see Lefferts Blvd I automatically think Ozone Park/Lefferts Blvd

[JeremiahC99]

56 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

How does one go about seeing the petition?

https://www.change.org/p/mta-east-west-bus-routes-must-continue-in-jackson-heights

[Cait Sith]

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Taking a look at some of the other routes:

QT81:

Seems like they still haven't learned that the Q19 is a high ridership route and refuse to give it better headways then a bus every 20 minutes.  They even merged it with another route, and didn't even change the headways. And traffic can sometimes get worse along Roosevelt Av, At LEAST have it run every 10 minutes during rush hour...

QT14:

What are they doing calling this an Airport Route? It don't even stop inside the dam airport, and if they ain't going to make a free transfer or something to the AirTrain, don't even bother.

As I said in the other Queens redesign thread, construction is set to take place within the airport and the other airport routes are being shifted around. They're still determining a proper place to terminate all the routes until the Port Authority figures it out.

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

But the Q19 has good ridership, and the M60 is always a pain to use because it's always either delayed from the Bridge or from LGA.

The AirTrain is free at Lefferts Blvd but not at Howard Beach ? What type of backwards logic is that?

Lefferts Blvd ?

You do realize that the Air Train doesn't connect to the Lefferts Blvd Station, right? Lol....It's free at the Lefferts Blvd AIR TRAIN STATION, not the Station.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Cait Sith

[Lawrence St]

7 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

As I said in the other Queens redesign thread, construction is set to take place within the airport and the other airport routes are being shifted around. They're still determining a proper place to terminate all the routes until the Port Authority figures it out.

Lefferts Blvd ?

You do realize that the Air Train doesn't connect to the Lefferts Blvd Station, right? Lol....It's free at the Lefferts Blvd AIR TRAIN STATION, not the Station.

Yeah I figured that out now 😭😭

[Gotham Bus Co.]

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

QT14:

What are they doing calling this an Airport Route? It don't even stop inside the dam airport, and if they ain't going to make a free transfer or something to the AirTrain, don't even bother.

 

The Port Authority doesn't want public buses in the Central Terminal Area. Therefore, QT14 will end at the Lefferts AirTrain station; B15 (or "son of") probably will as well. Meanwhile, QT20 and QT68 will probably end at Federal Circle.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

 

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

QT81:

Seems like they still haven't learned that the Q19 is a high ridership route and refuse to give it better headways then a bus every 20 minutes.  They even merged it with another route, and didn't even change the headways. And traffic can sometimes get worse along Roosevelt Av, At LEAST have it run every 10 minutes during rush hour...

 

My worry is that buses will get bogged down on Astoria Blvd and never get to Whitestone.