B44 +SelectBusService+

[Future ENY OP]

East New York [the go-to guy for bus developments] says B44 +SBS is being pushed back to January 2013, due to a lack of available LFSA buses (the +SBS was originally supposed to start either late this year or summer of next year; different sites gave different dates) Ok, so it's not really a 'development', but still

 

Also, the B44 +SBS won't affect the B49 LTD at all. The B44 +SBS is running on the B49 Northbound betweeen Foster Av and its terminal at Fulton St. The B49 LTD only runs Southbound, during the AM Rush. Two different directions, no intermixing.

 

Yeah, taking the B44 +SBS off New York Av will be a disaster. Even if it is a little quicker, and more convenient on Rogers Avthan on New York Av, New York Av really needs the service more.

 

 

Will this be a Grand Ave Depot operation or Flatbush operation??

b/c of Grand Ave, it wouldn't make sense to do to +B44 Select there, although they are bulit to fit artics in that depot.

 

Hopefully, it's going to FLATBUSH + it's one of their busiest lines, but the depot I believe does not have the equiptment to hold the artics such as lifts and etc (I could be wrong), correction is kindly needed.

[Mysterious2train]

Will this be a Grand Ave Depot operation or Flatbush operation??

b/c of Grand Ave, it wouldn't make sense to do to +B44 Select there, although they are bulit to fit artics in that depot.

 

Hopefully, it's going to FLATBUSH + it's one of their busiest lines, but the depot I believe does not have the equiptment to hold the artics such as lifts and etc (I could be wrong), correction is kindly needed.

 

I have no idea. I'm not really a bus depot assignments kind of guy. Just going by people on this forum, it seems to be Grand Ave. I want it to go out of Flatbush, just because it's my home depot.

[Eric B]

Something just occurred to me today, after reading that 126th would be the next depot to be rebuilt.

Why are all of these Manhattan and Bronx depots being rebuilt (just about every one, it seems) one after the other, but they couldn't have squeezed Flatbush in there somewhere, since it had the problem accommodating artics? They were supposed to get artics years ago, for it's Manhattan-like long straight busy routes, but never was able; now it seems like they've just given up on it. (Hence, 44SBS going to Grand). Most of the Manhattan depots, it seems could already handle artics.

[checkmatechamp13]

East New York [the go-to guy for bus developments] says B44 +SBS is being pushed back to January 2013, due to a lack of available LFSA buses (the +SBS was originally supposed to start either late this year or summer of next year; different sites gave different dates) Ok, so it's not really a 'development', but still

 

Also, the B44 +SBS won't affect the B49 LTD at all. The B44 +SBS is running on the B49 Northbound betweeen Foster Av and its terminal at Fulton St. The B49 LTD only runs Southbound, during the AM Rush. Two different directions, no intermixing.

 

Yeah, taking the B44 +SBS off New York Av will be a disaster. Even if it is a little quicker, and more convenient on Rogers Avthan on New York Av, New York Av really needs the service more.

 

I don't see why a lack of buses should be a reason not to run the service. Just run a few more of the buses they have now to accomodate the additional ridership, and enjoy the increased ridership/savings that result from having +SBS+.

 

On a side note, since the DOT is already involved in the project because of the bus lanes, why can't they make NY Avenue a one-way street northbound, so that the +SBS+ can stay with the local?

[Future ENY OP]

Something just occurred to me today, after reading that 126th would be the next depot to be rebuilt.

Why are all of these Manhattan and Bronx depots being rebuilt (just about every one, it seems) one after the other, but they couldn't have squeezed Flatbush in there somewhere, since it had the problem accommodating artics? They were supposed to get artics years ago, for it's Manhattan-like long straight busy routes, but never was able; now it seems like they've just given up on it. (Hence, 44SBS going to Grand). Most of the Manhattan depots, it seems could already handle artics.

 

Yuck, I can't see that happening, but if it does, send the B47 back to FLA where it belongs.. They better know how to keep up with the schedule on the 44, which could mean Flatbush gets the local 44 traveling on NY avenue, or its a fully Grand Avenue route. The +B44SBS should belong to FLA and of course the local. Will they construct FLA depot to hold artics? This has been a bowling issue for years.

 

Most of Grand Avenue routes have issues, and I MEAN BUNCHING issues, and can't stay on schedule. prime example B47, you got buses coming in two's or three's and the next bus would take at least 20 mins in either direction.

 

Let's see what happens here with this.

[Acela Express]

On a side note, since the DOT is already involved in the project because of the bus lanes, why can't they make NY Avenue a one-way street northbound, so that the +SBS+ can stay with the local?

The only way I'd see this working is if they suspend right-side parking to accommodate it as an bus lane.

[checkmatechamp13]

The only way I'd see this working is if they suspend right-side parking to accommodate it as an bus lane.

 

But isn't that what they're going to do for Rogers Avenue anyway?

[Mysterious2train]

But isn't that what they're going to do for Rogers Avenue anyway?

 

Nein. It's going to be an offset bus lane, the second lane from the right curb. Same with Nostrand Ave. And bus bulbs will be built to work with the offset bus lane.

 

And as nice as one-waying New York Av would be for +SBS, the motorists won't be happy.

 

And besides, even if Grand Ave can hold artics, it'd still be the most random choice ever.

[Fresh Pond]

They say the SBS will go to Grand (since that depot was built aric-ready) and the locals will stay at Flatbush

 

But then again, nothing is set in stone and this seems like it makes the most sense

[B35 via Church]

Most of Grand Avenue routes have issues, and I MEAN BUNCHING issues, and can't stay on schedule. prime example B47, you got buses coming in two's or three's and the next bus would take at least 20 mins in either direction.

B13, B24, B47, B48, B57, B60, B62, Q59

 

Come to think of it, you're right... Good observation....

and worse, none of em run on real low headways....

 

In general, buses along routes that run on high (enough) headways & still bunch, irks me...

 

 

 

Yeah, taking the B44 +SBS off New York Av will be a disaster. Even if it is a little quicker, and more convenient on Rogers Avthan on New York Av, New York Av really needs the service more.

 

+1

[BrooklynBus]

They say the SBS will go to Grand (since that depot was built aric-ready) and the locals will stay at Flatbush

 

But then again, nothing is set in stone and this seems like it makes the most sense

 

What bothers me the most is how they are measuring the success of SBS on two factors: 1- Time buses save on each trip. and 2- Number of additional passengers attracted to route. That is so ridiculous when you consider all the factors involved. The major factor should be how much time the passenger saves which might not be any on the B44.

 

The bus is projected to save either 15 or 19 minutes, I forget which on its entire run, but the the average passenger time savings is only six minutes since most trips are relatively short. That does not take into consideration the extra time needed to access the SBS bus stops which are further apart which could easily take an additional 3 minutes on either end. Also, the inability to take which ever bus comes first will also add to a passengers trip time as will the fact that only half the buses will be operating on NY AV.

 

As far as additional passengers, no one is considering how many are coming from other bus routes or the subway which is a more efficient mode, so additional passengers does not equate with additional revenue.

 

Finally, longer run-on and run-off trips to a further depot also adds to the cost of operation which the MTA is also not considering. It irks me how the MTA has already labeled this as a success before it even starts and will not change their conclusions once it starts running because they refuse to collect all the facts needed for a fair evaluation. I still say that the B44 SBS was a poor choice and will work out worse than the Bx12 and M15. It will be a disaster and I hope the MTA is embarassed by it.

[Future ENY OP]

They say the SBS will go to Grand (since that depot was built aric-ready) and the locals will stay at Flatbush

 

But then again, nothing is set in stone and this seems like it makes the most sense

 

#1. If the MTA decides to have +B44SBS at Grand, this will NOT be smart move at all. You CANNOT have a depot all way in Maspeth to work on a FLATBUSH route. Clearly Flatbush has the BUSIEST routes in the city (B41), (B44), (B46) and some carry over 100 units which I think Grand Ave cannot handle if they were to get the 44, and the deadheading issue is going to be another headache of it's own. Those Sheepshead Bay riders will raise HELL, I know and I lived in Flatbush and sheepshead most of my life so I frequent the B44 & B41. I didn't agree when they shifted the (B47) from FLA to GA. I'm not here bashing Grand Avenue at all, but just explaining the pure logic of the situation. That's like throwing an Ulmer Park bus to work a Jackie Gleason branch which clearly the two depots are on the other side of town from each other.

 

#2 IF the MTA was SMART, they should of started construction on FLATBUSH years ago so that they can accommodate ARTICS at the depot OR even have some stored at Floyd Bennett Field, and some at the depot for spacing concerns. If I read correctly, +B44SBS could start as early as January 2013 due to lack of buses?

 

#3 IF GA were to get the 44, they need to severely improve on the schedule bunching. This will be a target issue to come for a while. Right now they are doing okay with the B38, and even that doesn't make sense to split the 38. That should of been a straight FP route working the 2 branches.

[Future ENY OP]

B13, B24, B47, B48, B57, B60, B62, Q59

 

Come to think of it, you're right... Good observation....

and worse, none of em run on real low headways....

 

In general, buses along routes that run on high (enough) headways & still bunch, irks me...

 

 

 

Agreed. Trust, I now live on that B47 line, and when FLA ran it, buses were coming on time and + they frequent use short part of the route at Sutter Avenue/Rutland Road and some buses to Woodhull Hosp. Now, it's completely hell if you want to get a B47. :mad:

 

I just don't understand why MTA does the most stupidest things when it comes to depot alignments and assignments for routes.:tdown:

['89 Liberty MCI]

Indeed.

['89 Liberty MCI]

What bothers me the most is how they are measuring the success of SBS on two factors: 1- Time buses save on each trip. and 2- Number of additional passengers attracted to route. That is so ridiculous when you consider all the factors involved. The major factor should be how much time the passenger saves which might not be any on the B44.

 

The bus is projected to save either 15 or 19 minutes, I forget which on its entire run, but the the average passenger time savings is only six minutes since most trips are relatively short. That does not take into consideration the extra time needed to access the SBS bus stops which are further apart which could easily take an additional 3 minutes on either end. Also, the inability to take which ever bus comes first will also add to a passengers trip time as will the fact that only half the buses will be operating on NY AV.

 

As far as additional passengers, no one is considering how many are coming from other bus routes or the subway which is a more efficient mode, so additional passengers does not equate with additional revenue.

 

Finally, longer run-on and run-off trips to a further depot also adds to the cost of operation which the MTA is also not considering. It irks me how the MTA has already labeled this as a success before it even starts and will not change their conclusions once it starts running because they refuse to collect all the facts needed for a fair evaluation. I still say that the B44 SBS was a poor choice and will work out worse than the Bx12 and M15. It will be a disaster and I hope the MTA is embarassed by it.

 

The projection was actually 19 or 25. This is based on a 75-minute trip, so they're saying a 75-min trip will become a 56-min trip. Originally they said 25, turning 75 minutes into 50, which I feel is plenty of time for a SBS bus to get from the Bay to Williamsburg. They said 19 minutes would be the savings after they 'conservatively adjusted' it. I don't see why the day bus can't be as quick as the night bus, which takes 50-51 minutes, if the day bus has bus lanes, POP, and whatnot. So I pick 25 over 19. Especially since the night bus has to make the turns on Farragut, New York, Fulton, and Bedford, like every B44 bus throughout the entire day, whereas the SBS won't. It seems quite logical to me.

 

Maybe I'll eat these words later, but I have my convictions and I'm sticking to them. So we shall see. Yes, the M15 SBS covers 8.4 miles in about 66 minutes max during the day (northbound via 1st Avenue, southbound via 2nd Avenue wouldn't be a fair comparison due to sick traffic conditions there), but it also uses much narrower streets in the Lower East Side, runs into more bridges and highways, deals with traffic by South Ferry that is much worse than anything the B44 comes across, and makes more stops. There are probably even more variables here that I haven't mentioned.

 

http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/sbs/docs/Nostrand%20Making%20the%20Case%20rev%206%20with%20map.pdf Page 4 of 6, third to last paragraph. Estimated time savings are shown there.

 

Grand Avenue depot is actually a fraction of a mile closer to Washington Plaza than Flatbush depot is to Knapp Street. The problem comes in there if the buses run into BQE traffic in that Williamsburg area. Trivial, but it's one reason why I wish they'd keep it in Flatbush. That and the fact that as the PM rush hour dies down, it's better to have the excess number of buses (that are getting ready to run off) take people coming home from work, from the urban areas (like Flatbush) and subways, to the suburbs (like Midwood and the Bay), and then running off to Flatbush depot. Vice versa in the AM rush when people are going to work.

 

I'd like to see how many people would be grinning from ear to ear if the MTA suddenly decided to scrap the B44 SBS. So we can continue to see these buses bunch up day after day, year after year (see Schleppie award) with nothing done to solve the problem. Bus every 4-6 minutes says the schedule, bus every 15-20 minutes say the B44 passengers. That's how it's been for years, and it even won the Schleppie in 2009.

 

2010...http://www.straphangers.org/pokeyaward/10/Schleppie_2010_Table_two.pdf

2009...http://www.straphangers.org/pokeyaward/09/

2008...http://www.straphangers.org/pokeyaward/08/table2.html

2007...http://www.straphangers.org/pokeyaward/07/table2.html

 

Even when the B44 doesn't win the Schleppie, it still ranks somewhere among the ten least reliable bus routes in the city. Not only that, it is also the busiest of these ten. I am not trying to say that everything the MTA does is justified, as it clearly isn't, but I just cannot follow some of the things you say-- "it'll be worse than the Bx12/M15, it's a sham, it'll be a disaster, it should be scrapped, I hope the MTA is embarrassed by it" etc etc.

 

Any mode of transportation that doesn't have you sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic constantly, ( watching 50 people pay their fare at a single farebox at once, waiting for every last one of them to board, dealing with an insane number of insane variables that affect your commute, is more pleasant to ride due to its faster speed and improved predictability, doesn't put you at its mercy while you wait for it, and makes it feel like the ride is over before it started, is a big improvement over its predecessor.

 

Then another thing is that you make it sound like even the Bx12 and M15 SBS are a failure when you say the B44 will be worse. If you had said it will not work out as well as the Bx12 and M15, then I wouldn't have gotten this impression. But you make it seem like this project is a failure everywhere it goes. Now, I can agree to some extent because I would like to see more from this project, such as bus lanes separated by physical dividers, but that doesn't mean the Bx12/M15 SBS are not an improvement over the Bx12/M15 LT. I've ridden both of them, and again I'm curious as to how many people would be grinning from ear-to-ear if the authority got up one day and said, you know what, this doesn't work, we're scrapping this whole shebang and going back to the wonderful on-board payment system so everybody can suffer all over again.

 

You even had somebody respond to an article you wrote a while back (http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2011/03/b44-select-bus-service-how-to-make-it-better/). In fact it was in the very first comment that the person asked that the B44 "figure out a way to get itself to a bus stop, on time, in accordance (give or take five minutes even) with the posted schedule." The person said a lot more stuff in that comment about how long (s)he has had to wait for a B44 to show up. If they don't make the B44 SBS, the B44 will not figure out a way to correct its scheduling issues.

 

Not with the Nostrand/New York Avenue traffic, not with that lovely on-board farebox in which we the passengers have to dip our MetroCards or drop our coins, not with all the other variables that make local and limited buses such a headache. You're probably going to tell me something about how Nostrand/Voorhies Avs (the stop that the quoted person used) is not going to be a SBS stop. I'll address that at the end.

 

East New York [the go-to guy for bus developments] says B44 +SBS is being pushed back to January 2013, due to a lack of available LFSA buses (the +SBS was originally supposed to start either late this year or summer of next year; different sites gave different dates) Ok, so it's not really a 'development', but still B)

 

Also, the B44 +SBS won't affect the B49 LTD at all. The B44 +SBS is running on the B49 Northbound betweeen Foster Av and its terminal at Fulton St. The B49 LTD only runs Southbound, during the AM Rush. Two different directions, no intermixing.

 

Yeah, taking the B44 +SBS off New York Av will be a disaster. Even if it is a little quicker, and more convenient on Rogers Avthan on New York Av, New York Av really needs the service more.

 

I was sitting at New York Avenue & Eastern Parkway with my bicycle once in the middle of the day, when the LTs are supposed to run every 7-8 minutes, locals every 10. I sat there for over an hour and there would be no bus for periods lasting as long as 15-20 minutes. Since New York Avenue is so narrow and there's a lot of traffic and double parking, do the LTs even save much time over the locals going up that block?

 

Given this and the reliability issues, it sounds like it would actually be better to walk over to Rogers where you have the SBS if you had to make a trip starting between Fulton and the Junction and ending north of Fulton. I also think they should implement the B32 I drew here in order to compensate for the loss of the B44 LT. Maybe not the B40, but definitely the B32:

 

 

Southern half on the left, northern half on the right.

 

Now what this does is it provides service on that Church-East New York Avenue section of Albany Avenue for the first time as well as supplemental service on New York Avenue. This helps East Flatbush since there are currently no north-south bus routes between New York Avenue and Utica Avenue.

 

I also think that getting rid of the B44 LT on New York Avenue and putting this B32 over there would actually make things better because you would now have a shorter bus route with its terminals closer to the affected areas. Instead of putting all the pressure on a local/limited bus route with chronic reliability issues that runs from the Bay to Williamsburg and serves those on New York Avenue, you now have a local bus route from the Bay to Williamsburg via NY Av and a local bus route from the Junction to Fulton Street via NY Av to complement the longer one that currently exists.

 

Now, a note about local and limited buses that will also address what I said about Nostrand/Voorhies Avenues in response to Brooklyn Bus.

 

I'm sure that if you think long and hard about it, most of you will agree with me when I say that local and limited buses are the lowest form of transportation known to man. Slow, unpredictable, unreliable, and subject to an insane number of insane variables that affect your commute when you use them. Regardless of what transit agency is running these buses, they are almost always a big headache to deal with.

 

Nobody can control the traffic, the slow boarding process, or that stupid farebox. I have lived in different parts of the Bronx and have never lived very close to a subway or anywhere near SBS. My father has lived all over this city, in neighborhoods far from the subway and in neighborhoods where the subway was a block away from his house. Local buses that run in my neighborhood have never been very frequent and the authority has been cutting them more and more over the years.

 

My father can recount many stories about when we lived way up in the northwest Bronx and he would look down the road forever, waiting for a bus to show up so he could go to the subway. 10 minutes waiting, 20 minutes traveling. Or when he worked at Kings County Hospital when he lived in Brooklyn and didn't even bother with the buses because they were so unpredictable, like they always have been. The buses in question were the B12, B35, B41, and B44.

 

Now, when you live in these situations, you have no choice. It's either bus or walk. If you have a very short commute you can just walk the entire way to get to where you have to go. If you live in a place like Flatbush/East Flatbush and you need to go someplace far away, you can walk the extra two blocks to get over to Rogers Avenue. Especially when your bus on New York Avenue takes even longer to show up than it does for you to walk the two extra blocks west.

 

And if you're coming from points south of the Junction to go to Kings County Hospital, it would take just as much time as it does now, possibly less depending on your location, to take a B44 SBS to the Junction, go downstairs, and take a or a to Winthrop and walk one block over. If Nostrand were a two-way block you'd have to walk over anyway since the northbound B44 would be right there on Nostrand. Walking more to access SBS stops is nothing because again, local and limited buses are about as reliable as a pimp that agrees to be the faithful companion to some poor woman. This is an oxymoron.

 

If I live by Nostrand & Voorhies and I say, "forget the locals, I'm walking down to Emmons & Nostrand to get a SBS bus," I am sure that a local bus will seldom pass me, especially during the week. I am also sure that 9 times out of 10 I will get a SBS bus as soon as I reach Emmons, and this bus will bypass the local before I get off, if a local passed me as I was walking to Emmons Avenue. I'm sure the person that left the comment on that article would have the same experience given his testimony to the unreliability of the B44.

 

And I would probably do that every day. Why would I bother dealing with local and limited buses if I have better ways to go places (subway, SBS), especially when I have to travel long distances? Why would I bother dealing with the unreliable B44 local if I have a SBS not too far away? Only way you deal with the local is if you see the thing barreling down the block to a bus stop near you. Otherwise, it's practically useless when you get right down to it.

 

The B44 is unreliable because of traffic on different sections of the route, it has been like that for years, and after the limited is converted to SBS, the local will hang out to dry forever. Better to have the local hang out to dry forever than have the entire route (local and limited) hang out to dry forever. You don't make the B44 SBS, the B44 limited will continue its woeful existence and 44,000 people will have to deal with the same headache every day like they do now. Local and limited buses are cursed and more power to you if you stop dealing with them or don't have to deal with them. It's a system that's on life support.

 

That being said, the authority can still improve the situation on New York Avenue and in that East Flatbush area by creating the B32. It won't be perfect, but I could see it being an improvement over the current B44 local/limited up New York Avenue. It's like a lesser evil. It's an evil because it's a local bus route, but it's a lesser evil because it would be shorter than the B44 and therefore more reliable.

 

I know there are local/limited bus routes that are frequent, reliable, and predictable most of the time, but they're still quite slow. The deal with all of them is that if one thing's right, another thing's wrong. It keeps a schedule and arrives frequently, but it's very slow. It moves quickly, but it takes forever to show up. It moves quickly and runs frequently, but it's so crowded you barely fit. Or it's inconsistent. Four days of the week everything's smooth, one day of the week it's like a lightning bolt struck the depot that maintains your bus route and there are 10 buses MIA or there's a huge accident/traffic jam or whatever.

 

But again, among those who know about the B44 SBS, I wonder how many of them would be happy if the authority got up one day and said they're gonna scrap it. They could go and make a modified B82 SBS, but the B82 is much lighter than the B44 (carries 13,000 less people a day) and the B44 would continue to twist in the wind until its ridership declined to B4 levels...mwahahahahahahahaha...

 

Well, maybe not that bad. But still, I think that if the B44 didn't get any SBS and stayed in its current shape it would be like hanging a 50-pound bag of hockey goalie equipment off a ceiling-mounted hook in a pre-WWII building. Might not rip the hook out the ceiling today or tomorrow, but you just give it time and it'll come out eventually. That's my metaphor for it.

[BrooklynBus]

What you wrote is very well written, but there are some problems with some of the things you are saying. You say that no one can control the traffic. That is just not true. What you should have said is that DOT and the police do a miserable job of controlling it and that's why buses are so slow. SBS is an expensive project that we don't need on Nostrand Avenue to make the buses go faster. I realize that it is a problem route but there are other things that can be done to speed the buses to incorporate some of its features such as priority signaling for buses. I don't see why that can't be instituted without a special bus lane. There should be a way to design a system to do that.

 

Second, every route has its known congestion points. Ask any bus driver to find out where they are. The police should give priority to enforce no double parking at these locations, which is the singular greatest cause of bus delays because it is very difficult ffor a driver to force his way into a moving lane of traffic. Instead, we have virtually no enforcement of double parking, especially by trucks loading and unloading for hours at a time in one spot. We don't need SBS to fix that. When I see an agent giving a ticket for double parking often it is on a street where there is light traffic and the double parker is not delaying anyone because the City's only concern is revenue, not moving traffic. Those people should be left alone because they are not harming anyone.

 

DOT agents directing traffic at problem intersections make a major difference in how traffic flows. Why are there none stationed at the Junction which is chronically congested?

 

I guess my biggest problem with B44 SBS is that the average rider will save so little time. I wrote in one of the articles that if more people could be encouraged to ride the length of the B44 by connecting it with the M15, then perhaps it would be worthwhile, but I just don't see it for 6 minute or less time savings for the average passenger which really is nothing when you consider what is going into this program and how a simple change can save more time. When I was going to college using the B46 everyday, the bus would usually get stuck the last three blocks before Eastern Parkway because the street narrows from two lanes to one. Because of this parking was banned in the AM rush to prevent the lanes from having to merge. When no one parked in the lane, everything went smoothly. However if one car was illegally stopped, those three blocks took an extra five to ten minutes. That traffic restriction for three short blocks if it was properly enforced would save passengers more time than the entire proposed B44 SBS.

 

Yes, something needs to be done to speed the B44 and you could have the same benefits with enforcement and changing a few traffic regulations and banning a few parking spots. If you are going to do SBS, at least do it right by altering other routes as you so wisely suggested. The MTA won't give that any thought since the entire purpose of SBS is to save the MTA money by lowering operating costs. If some trips are speeded, that is just a side benefit, but it is not why they are doing it in the first place. That's why your proposed routes would never happen.

 

You said I make it sound like the M15 and Bx12 are failures. I would think they are not, but am not sure. What I am saying is that you should do fair evaluations to see how successful they are, if indeed that is the case. You shouldn't only measure bus speeds and increases in patronage which are only two factors. The most important factor is how much time people are saving in making their complete trip and no one is measuring that. Also, increased patronage is not necessarily a good thing if those people are being attracted from the subway which is a more efficient way of moving people, since no additional revenue is generated by them switching to SBS. People also need to be able to change between the local and the SBS without preventing them from taking a third bus.

 

The final point you are overlooking is the further walk to the SBS stop which you have no problem with. Many bus riders, however are older. You don't necessarily have to be elderly or handicapped to have difficulty with walking. Many people have temporary injuries which makes walking difficult, like temporarily using crutches because of a broken leg. Others like myself from time to time develop sciatica or a leg muscle cramp from time to time making walking very difficult. When you are in your 20s and 30s, it's not something you think about because walking a few extra blocks means nothing. On the M15 you could just wait for the local so it wouldn't matter. But with the B44 with half the service on NY Ave and the loss of the Limited, some people's trips will actually be slower with SBS. Who is measuring that? No one. That's why I am so opposed to the B44 SBS.

 

The alternative as I stated is not to do nothing. If the City and MTA wanted to, you could find many other ways to save the average passenger more than six minutes without all the expense of SBS, but as I stated no one cares about making people's trips faster. Their only concern is speeding the buses to save the MTA money which is not a bad thing but not good enough of a reason for SBS on the B44. Also, when the MTA started talking about SBS in 2003, they specifically stated that SBS would be provided in addition to Limited service not instead of it. Also, they stated that in some cases it would only be necessary to remove a parking lane for the bus lane, not a lane of traffic. All this proves is that they just cannot be trusted.

['89 Liberty MCI]

I commend you for responding with such diplomacy as I may have gone off the deep end in my post a couple of times.

 

I think the Feds actually fund the project, so it may be expensive but it's more the Feds' problem than MTA's problem.

 

Proper enforcement of traffic restrictions...only way they would guarantee this every day is by installing designated cameras in the areas in question. Also I think that in order for them to be consistent with this traffic enforcement, there would first have to be a complete overhaul of the way every city agency, especially the NYPD and DOT, does things. Easier said than done as government agencies have been doing strange things since the beginning of time.

 

I wonder if the B44 local should be cut up into two or three shuttles to try to deal with the reliability issues. Maybe one from Williamsburg to Fulton, one from Fulton to Flatbush, one from Flatbush to the Bay. Then the MTA would basically keep the same number of buses on the road and it wouldn't cost much to implement.

[BrooklynBus]

I commend you for responding with such diplomacy as I may have gone off the deep end in my post a couple of times.

 

I think the Feds actually fund the project, so it may be expensive but it's more the Feds' problem than MTA's problem.

 

Proper enforcement of traffic restrictions...only way they would guarantee this every day is by installing designated cameras in the areas in question. Also I think that in order for them to be consistent with this traffic enforcement, there would first have to be a complete overhaul of the way every city agency, especially the NYPD and DOT, does things. Easier said than done as government agencies have been doing strange things since the beginning of time.

 

I wonder if the B44 local should be cut up into two or three shuttles to try to deal with the reliability issues. Maybe one from Williamsburg to Fulton, one from Fulton to Flatbush, one from Flatbush to the Bay. Then the MTA would basically keep the same number of buses on the road and it wouldn't cost much to implement.

 

Yes, none of the money is MTA money. In order to cut up the local, you would have to enable easy transfers between the SBS and the local by making the stops adjacent to each other and not charge an extra fare to transfer to a third bus. I really don't see why that should be a problem for the MTA. They let you do that if you board a bus that is no going to the end of the route, so why should they count transferring between a Limited/SBS to a local?

['89 Liberty MCI]

Operationally they would have to put the northernmost branch in Grand Avenue depot and the lower two branches in Flatbush depot. This would be nice because it would free up some space in Flatbush depot and fill up some space in Grand Avenue depot. Relief point for branch #1 at Bridge Plaza, relief point for branches 2 and 3 at the Junction.

 

Actually with the two branches terminating at the Junction, these buses could run off from the Junction to Flatbush depot resulting in less dead mileage than the run-offs from Knapp Street. Or branch #3 gains flexibility since Flatbush depot could have buses run on to either Knapp Street or the Junction depending on demand at different times of day.

 

Just to clarify branch #1 is from Williamsburg to Fulton Street, branch #2 Fulton to the Junction, branch #3 Junction to the Bay. They all follow the same route as the current B44. Branch #1 via Bedford/Nostrand, branch #2 via New York/Nostrand, branch #3 obviously via Nostrand only.

 

Also the night buses (run #s 001 and 002) would do the whole route. Not sure whether there should be one in Flatbush depot and one in Grand Avenue depot, or they should both be left in Flatbush depot. With the split-depot option they would then just become one of the branch line buses in the morning, with the Grand Avenue night bus staying on branch #1 (north of Fulton) and the Flatbush night bus staying on either branch south of Fulton, wherever the authority wants to put it. Single-depot option (Flatbush) means that both buses have to go to one of the two southern branches, or one bus to each of the two southern branches.

 

It has to be synchronized so that after the last SBS bus leaves Knapp Street at night, the next local bus (which originally was a branch-line bus) as well as the followers (also branch-line buses) now go all the way to Williamsburg. Then on the way back, that first local bus after the SBS bus just keeps doing the whole route until its run-off time. When the last SBS bus returns to Knapp Street it runs off to Flatbush depot.

 

I hope this is not too much to ask of the authority. It doesn't require any new bus stops or bus layover space, doesn't put any buses on any streets that do not currently have buses, and might even save them money. The distance from the Junction to Flatbush depot is 1.7 mile while the distance from Knapp Street to the depot is 2.5 miles.

[East New York]

And besides, even if Grand Ave can hold artics, it'd still be the most random choice ever.

 

What's random about it? That's the best place for the route to go.

 

#1. If the MTA decides to have +B44SBS at Grand, this will NOT be smart move at all. You CANNOT have a depot all way in Maspeth to work on a FLATBUSH route. Clearly Flatbush has the BUSIEST routes in the city (B41), (B44), (B46) and some carry over 100 units which I think Grand Ave cannot handle if they were to get the 44, and the deadheading issue is going to be another headache of it's own. Those Sheepshead Bay riders will raise HELL, I know and I lived in Flatbush and sheepshead most of my life so I frequent the B44 & B41. I didn't agree when they shifted the (B47) from FLA to GA. I'm not here bashing Grand Avenue at all, but just explaining the pure logic of the situation. That's like throwing an Ulmer Park bus to work a Jackie Gleason branch which clearly the two depots are on the other side of town from each other.

 

#2 IF the MTA was SMART, they should of started construction on FLATBUSH years ago so that they can accommodate ARTICS at the depot OR even have some stored at Floyd Bennett Field, and some at the depot for spacing concerns. If I read correctly, +B44SBS could start as early as January 2013 due to lack of buses?

 

#3 IF GA were to get the 44, they need to severely improve on the schedule bunching. This will be a target issue to come for a while. Right now they are doing okay with the B38, and even that doesn't make sense to split the 38. That should of been a straight FP route working the 2 branches.

 

Grand is NOT getting the 44 Local. There is nothing wrong with running the SBS portion out of Grand. The depot is basically right down the street from the B44's northern terminal. That is actually a VERY smart move on MTA's part. You already have a depot that can house and maintain the buses. No need to modify Flatbush when you have Grand. Especially when you take into account that the B44 may be the only route out of FLA that will ever use artics.

 

I don't ever see them being put on any of the other routes.

 

And the SBS isn't starting early "due to a lack of buses." It's starting about 6 months late due to a lack of buses!

[Acela Express]

That's like throwing an Ulmer Park bus to work a Jackie Gleason branch which clearly the two depots are on the other side of town from each other.

*points to* --> B4 & B68.

[East New York]

I was just informed this morning that Flatbush has now been prepped for artics, and lifts are now in place. So, there were talks of the SBS portion going to Grand. As it turns out, it will not, and I stand corrected.

 

I have confirmed that Flatbush is officially artic ready now!:cool:

['89 Liberty MCI]

Nice. I had mentioned BQE traffic as a reason to leave the B44 in Flatbush, although it may have been trivial. Actually I wanted it to stay in Flatbush since I like that depot better and (not sure if these reasons are trivial or not) because of the issues with operators using the Q59 to travel from Grand depot to Washington Plaza to make reliefs. Also there's the thing about the buses making their last trip (before running off to the depot) by traveling from the urban areas and subways towards the suburbs in the evening, and vice-versa in the morning after they run on from the depot.

 

I guess it's mostly the fact that I like Flatbush better, but I think those other little factors altogether make Flatbush a better depot for the B44 than Grand Avenue. If those little factors don't make a big difference, then the choice of depot could have really gone either way and it would have been fine. Although I still think that Q59 would have caused trouble with the reliefs sooner or later.

[East New York]

Although I still think that Q59 would have caused trouble with the reliefs sooner or later.

 

Why do you say that?

[checkmatechamp13]

Since Flatbush is artic-ready, is there a chance that the B41 and B46 could get them down the road?