MTA Bus Operations: Fleet & Depots

[Gotham Bus Co.]

8 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Last i recalled, the M Shuttle work would need in April 30th, 2018.

What would it need?

[MTABusFan925]

6 hours ago, limitednyc said:

After the xn60's come in there will still around 60 2004 cng's .

No. From what I heard, the XN60 fleet will kill off any remaining Orion 7 CNG's (all of which are at WF). My guess is that the last bus to be taken out of revenue service will be around Q4 of 2018 (Early Q1 of 2019 if you're lucky) 

[WestFarms36]

8 minutes ago, MTABusFan925 said:

No. From what I heard, the XN60 fleet will kill off any remaining Orion 7 CNG's (all of which are at WF). My guess is that the last bus to be taken out of revenue service will be around Q4 of 2018 (Early Q1 of 2019 if you're lucky) 

Yeah because MTA cannot keep those buses any longer than that, their CNG Tanks will be expired by then, unless they send a few down to Spring Creek to help the B100 and B103 routes by the Summer and have it slowly retiring until by Q4 of 2018.

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

What would it need?

I meant to say finished. The M shuttle work should be completed by April 30th, 2018.

 

The viaduct itself has made progress. The structure has been built up to a point before the curve to the Jamaica El. All they would need to do is to build the rest of the structure, put in the tracks, signal cables, and other infrastructure, test it and put in service.

[Future ENY OP]

49 minutes ago, WestFarms36 said:

Yeah because MTA cannot keep those buses any longer than that, their CNG Tanks will be expired by then, unless they send a few down to Spring Creek to help the B100 and B103 routes by the Summer and have it slowly retiring until by Q4 of 2018.

The last batch of buses WF sent to JG and Spring Creek are heading to the scrap yard.

[The Real]

Buses to be retrofitted with WiFi... See This Post:

 

[East New York]

On 2/25/2018 at 11:29 AM, JeremiahC99 said:

For the B82 SBS, where will the 40 foot buses for the service come from? Will they be new buses (which would be diverted from the Jamaica Bus Depot allotment (like what happened with the XD60s that we’re supposed to go to Manhattan and Brooklyn, or will 20 XD40’s (7090-7109) from the 50 XD40 buses EN have be wrapped in the SBS scheme, like the B46 SBS? Where would the XD60’s assigned to the M train shuttle go once the work finished on April 30th, 2018?

 

1.) Last i recalled, the M Shuttle work would need in April 30th, 2018. By this service would be restored and the buses would be displaced from Grand Avenue.

2.) I wonder if those buses may come from ENY Depot’s existing fleet. That depot has 50 XD40’s lying around the depot, so it could be possible that they could wrap around 20 buses for the service, leaving 30 for the other routes.

3.) Will the SBS XD60’s at Quill be displaced once all 77 SBS LFSA’s are in service there?

Almost all of the answers to this are on the first page of this thread, and all of this had been discussed multiple times. Assignments are always posted there, and updated when the time is available or new information comes out.

I also ask that you look back a few pages as well and see what has been discussed.

Revised LFSA assignment updated.

[IAlam]

I wonder why the MTA isn't looking at the other versions of Nova Buses. I've gotten a couple of chances to ride the CNG LFS buses in Buffalo and they run just as good as their diesel counterparts. On top of that, the LFS does come in hybrid and all-electric versions.

[East New York]

On 3/6/2018 at 3:38 PM, IAlam said:

I wonder why the MTA isn't looking at the other versions of Nova Buses. I've gotten a couple of chances to ride the CNG LFS buses in Buffalo and they run just as good as their diesel counterparts. On top of that, the LFS does come in hybrid and all-electric versions.

We've actually talked about this a few times but I will go over it again for the ones that missed it.

Nova bids on every MTA procurement, however for several reasons they have chosen to go with New Flyer.

CNG: When MTA awarded the contract they based the evaluation off technical experience. Nova had none at the time and had only delivered 2 CNG buses. 

Hybrid: MTA decided all the evaluation pilots and most likely all of the of the 275 will go to New Flyer because of the price point. The Nova hybrids are more than $100k more per bus than NFI. Therefore this was a unanimous decision. If the price range would have been similar as is other split Nova/NFI orders they may have got 10 in there as well. In addition, techinal evaluation is always a major point as well as at that time and still currently, Nova has only delivered hybrids to SEPTA. (Not including Canada.) 

Electric: Of the top 4 manufacturers in MTA's final evaluation, this was "unofficially" the ranking:

4. Nova: Technical experience and in service evaluation capability is not too bad, but only in Canada, and still very new.

3. BYD: Technical experience is excellent, however, within the United States the only substantial fleet they have delivered are 10 to LBT. And MTA would like to alter the specs in a way that would likely not be cost effective. Not only that, the platform K9 platform has not completed an MTA New Bus Qualification.  

2. Proterra: Tech Evaluation is excellent and MTA always monitors what LACMTA and everyone else chooses. They are the highest technically rated hybrid in the country and as they deliver more buses the price will continue to drop. The Specs aren't what MTA is typically used to, but the range on the buses is unmated at this particular time. 

1. New Flyer: Tech evaluation is not the best because they don't have many buses in service, yet have and will be delivering a substantial amount of buses in the near future. The platform is common to all current models in service and for body and interior maintenance purposes this automatically lowers the over-life maintenance costs. The bus also comes at a great price.

Final decision. 3 Year Bust Test & Evaluation program. I'm being told MTA is now also evaluating the retention of whatever manufacturer is selected buses we have in service. This however is unconfirmed and as of my last official report this is only a dual lease. I cannnot confirm if there is a lease to buy option. However, from what I have reviewed there's always the option on the table by default. So MTA could in fact purchase 50 buses with only 45 of them being brand new. They would get a great deal on the remaining balance for the 5 winners.

If somehow MTA decided both buses come out as winners and do a split award things could shake up. 

Edited March 11, 2018 by East New York

[The Real]

On 3/11/2018 at 3:26 AM, East New York said:

We've actually talked about this a few times but I will go over it again for the ones that missed it.

Nova bids on every MTA procurement, however for several reasons they have chosen to go with New Flyer.

CNG: When MTA awarded the contract they based the evaluation off technical experience. Nova had none at the time and had only delivered 2 CNG buses. 

Hybrid: MTA decided all the evaluation pilots and most likely all of the of the 275 will go to New Flyer because of the price point. The Nova hybrids are more than $100k more per bus than NFI. Therefore this was a unanimous decision. If the price range would have been similar as is other split Nova/NFI orders they may have got 10 in there as well. In addition, techinal evaluation is always a major point as well as at that time and still currently, Nova has only delivered hybrids to SEPTA. (Not including Canada.) 

Electric: Of the top 4 manufacturers in MTA's final evaluation, this was "unofficially" the ranking:

4. Nova: Technical experience and in service evaluation capability is not too bad, but only in Canada, and still very new.

3. BYD: Technical experience is excellent, however, within the United States the only substantial fleet they have delivered are 10 to LBT. And MTA would like to alter the specs in a way that would likely not be cost effective. Not only that, the platform K9 platform has not completed an MTA New Bus Qualification.  

2. Proterra: Tech Evaluation is excellent and MTA always monitors what LACMTA and everyone else chooses. They are the highest technically rated hybrid in the country and as they deliver more buses the price will continue to drop. The Specs aren't what MTA is typically used to, but the range on the buses is unmated at this particular time. 

1. New Flyer: Tech evaluation is not the best because they don't have many buses in service, yet have and will be delivering a substantial amount of buses in the near future. The platform is common to all current models in service and for body and interior maintenance purposes this automatically lowers the over-life maintenance costs. The bus also comes at a great price.

Final decision. 3 Year Bust Test & Evaluation program. I'm being told MTA is now also evaluating the retention of whatever manufacturer is selected buses we have in service. This however is unconfirmed and as of my last official report this is only a dual lease. I cannnot confirm if there is a lease to buy option. However, from what I have reviewed there's always the option on the table by default. So MTA could in fact purchase 50 buses with only 45 of them being brand new. They would get a great deal on the remaining balance for the 5 winners.

If somehow MTA decided both buses come out as winners and do a split award things could shake up. 

I gotta correct you bro.

At the time of the award for the CNG, Nova had built 2 buses for Calgary, the first Hamilton Street Railway order and was in the middle of building the Buffalo order. New Flyer lied on paper to the MTA about that.

Also Nova has just about the same amount of technical experience with Hybrids as New Flyer, just because they built more Hybrids for the Canadian properties than US properties doesn't lessen their technical know-how on building and supporting Hybrid buses.

New Flyer keeps using that "technical experience" excuse to the MTA about Nova, but the truth of the matter is while New Flyer may have been in the CNG game longer than Nova, Nova's technical know-how surpasses New Flyer. On the electrical vehicle front, Nova kicks New Flyer's ass but unlike New Flyer, Nova will not "cheapen" (lower its prices) just to score a bid, Nova knows what its worth. New Flyer, since 2013 has been underbidding itself and is a dangerous gambling game that if they don't watch themselves, they'll go the way of Flxible and Orion...who had tons orders at their close dates, but couldn't financially sustain itself after various financial woes INCLUDING under bidding. From the beginning of the Xcelsior production until around 2013, the X was priced at the most expensive bus on the market, followed by Nova, then Orion and the GILLIG. After 2013, all of a sudden we saw a jump, and a large jump in X orders nationwide, all of a sudden they were beating out GILLIG in markets that was GILLIG strongholds, that was the red flag for me with New Flyer. Some properties are starting to come to their senses about the X product, its still not where it should be in terms of quality for New Flyer to be boasting so much about it. Point Blank, Its Not. New Flyer should've kept the LFR platform around a bit longer and really got the X to where it should be in terms of quality and THEN gotten rid of the LFR, but its not THERE yet, its not.

Unlike the X....The Nova LFS, the GILLIG Low Floor all have had their time to mature and be the strong built, higher quality buses that they are, not debatable. I hate the the GILLIG Low Floor, with everything in me, but I know a quality built bus when I see it. You know I've been around this industry long enough to know. The Nova LFS, when it first came out was a weak product, it wasn't until the 2nd generation variant that the LFS became a well-built, strong quality product. HELL, even ElDorado has take the time to strengthen that Axxess platform and that a mean ass bus, I'm excited to see how they do in the LACMTA environment. But I say all that the say this, the MTA better be careful with all this New Flyer stuff, none of it sits well with me ESPECIALLY after having lived through and seeing the business and the business practices of many bus manufacturers. Get the X to where it really needs to be because every new order of Xs I've seen around the North American continent, and I've experienced many of Xs between the US and Canada, the quality is just not there yet. Pretty ass buses, yes! But for me that's where it stops.

[The Real]

Oh, and confirmed...

 

9500-9504 will be the Cummins B6.7-Allison HP40 group

9505-9509 will be the Cummins B6.7-BAE HDS200 Series-E group

[East New York]

15 hours ago, The Real said:

I gotta correct you bro.

At the time of the award for the CNG, Nova had built 2 buses for Calgary, the first Hamilton Street Railway order and was in the middle of building the Buffalo order. New Flyer lied on paper to the MTA about that.

Also Nova has just about the same amount of technical experience with Hybrids as New Flyer, just because they built more Hybrids for the Canadian properties than US properties doesn't lessen their technical know-how on building and supporting Hybrid buses.

New Flyer keeps using that "technical experience" excuse to the MTA about Nova, but the truth of the matter is while New Flyer may have been in the CNG game longer than Nova, Nova's technical know-how surpasses New Flyer. On the electrical vehicle front, Nova kicks New Flyer's ass but unlike New Flyer, Nova will not "cheapen" (lower its prices) just to score a bid, Nova knows what its worth. New Flyer, since 2013 has been underbidding itself and is a dangerous gambling game that if they don't watch themselves, they'll go the way of Flxible and Orion...who had tons orders at their close dates, but couldn't financially sustain itself after various financial woes INCLUDING under bidding. From the beginning of the Xcelsior production until around 2013, the X was priced at the most expensive bus on the market, followed by Nova, then Orion and the GILLIG. After 2013, all of a sudden we saw a jump, and a large jump in X orders nationwide, all of a sudden they were beating out GILLIG in markets that was GILLIG strongholds, that was the red flag for me with New Flyer. Some properties are starting to come to their senses about the X product, its still not where it should be in terms of quality for New Flyer to be boasting so much about it. Point Blank, Its Not. New Flyer should've kept the LFR platform around a bit longer and really got the X to where it should be in terms of quality and THEN gotten rid of the LFR, but its not THERE yet, its not.

Unlike the X....The Nova LFS, the GILLIG Low Floor all have had their time to mature and be the strong built, higher quality buses that they are, not debatable. I hate the the GILLIG Low Floor, with everything in me, but I know a quality built bus when I see it. You know I've been around this industry long enough to know. The Nova LFS, when it first came out was a weak product, it wasn't until the 2nd generation variant that the LFS became a well-built, strong quality product. HELL, even ElDorado has take the time to strengthen that Axxess platform and that a mean ass bus, I'm excited to see how they do in the LACMTA environment. But I say all that the say this, the MTA better be careful with all this New Flyer stuff, none of it sits well with me ESPECIALLY after having lived through and seeing the business and the business practices of many bus manufacturers. Get the X to where it really needs to be because every new order of Xs I've seen around the North American continent, and I've experienced many of Xs between the US and Canada, the quality is just not there yet. Pretty ass buses, yes! But for me that's where it stops.

No, I totally agree with you 200% and you are definitely correct. I'm just saying this is what the MTA supposedly said in the final the evaluations which led them to the decisions of now. This isn't my point of view or opinion. We definitely see how the contract was written for the CNG's, (which was a tad bit shady) and you know my personal position on everything that's been going on. 

Now you know for a fact I know exactly how much tech experience Nova has. The RTS speaks for itself and the LFS is the most solid platform out which is built with the same philosophy. This is just what the final reports supposedly said, so I posted. 

However, my position is the same as yours and it runs a LOT deeper than this! Lol.

Nova quotes the prices of it's buses based on the specs. NFI bases their prices on winning orders. 

In case anyone didn't know, MTA has historically ordered 2 pilot buses. NFI created the 4-5 pilot program to one-up Nova and say hey "we can deliver on any schedule you want unlike the other guys."

But In agreeance with you, Quantity over Quality seems to be the precedent right now, and it definitely reflects in the maintenance records and "caugh" Altoona records.

The MTA of today that you and I know are worried about the price on paper. This is the same MTA that at one time said they would never order another bus from New Flyer after the D60's and also said they would never order another Nova after the RTS hybrids. NFI can afford to low-ball and Nova just won't do it. But that's just good business. 🤷🏾‍♂️

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by East New York

[FLX9304]

14 hours ago, East New York said:

No, I totally agree with you 200% and you are definitely correct. I'm just saying this is what the MTA supposedly said in the final the evaluations which led them to the decisions of now. This isn't my point of view or opinion. We definitely see how the contract was written for the CNG's, (which was a tad bit shady) and you know my personal position on everything that's been going on. 

Now you know for a fact I know exactly how much tech experience Nova has. The RTS speaks for itself and the LFS is the most solid platform out which is built with the same philosophy. This is just what the final reports supposedly said, so I posted. 

However, my position is the same as yours and it runs a LOT deeper than this! Lol.

Nova quotes the prices of it's buses based on the specs. NFI bases their prices on winning orders. 

In case anyone didn't know, MTA has historically ordered 2 pilot buses. NFI created the 4-5 pilot program to one-up Nova and say hey "we can deliver on any schedule you want unlike the other guys."

But In agreeance with you, Quantity over Quality seems to be the precedent right now, and it definitely reflects in the maintenance records and "caugh" Altoona records.

The MTA of today that you and I know are worried about the price on paper. This is the same MTA that at one time said they would never order another bus from New Flyer after the D60's and also said they would never order another Nova after the RTS hybrids. NFI can afford to low-ball and Nova just won't do it. But that's just good business. 🤷🏾‍♂️

 

 

 

4

Promises are meant to be kept, not broken, for those who control the BLUE/YELLOW brand. At that time they relied upon Orion to do the dirty work, however, since they went OUT of business, the MTA has to suck it up to NF/Nova orders or maybe pick another company, EXCEPT Gillig. Imagine if they haven't messed up that potential Millenium RTS order 

[The Real]

Amended New Flyer XN60 Order Information

1000-1015 to West Farms for Bx6 Select Bus Service

1016-1053 to Gleason for B35 Articulation

1054-1109 to West Farms for Bx36 Articulation (Of course you'll see them on the Bx15 and 19)

 

This will allow the retirement of the majority of the 2004 DCBNA Orion 07.501 CNG Low Floor fleet. There is a possibility that Orions with tanks that are not near expiration may be kept, if so, it would be a very small batch (much like how some of the 2002-03 batches hung around). As of now, expect some New Flyer XN40 units to be transferred from Gleason to the Farms when Gleason gets their batch of XN60 units.

Edited March 19, 2018 by The Real

[JeremiahC99]

3 minutes ago, The Real said:

Amended New Flyer XN60 Order Information

1000-1015 to West Farms for Bx6 Select Bus Service

1016-1053 to Gleason for B35 Articulation

1054-1109 to West Farms for Bx36 Articulation (Of course you'll see them on the Bx15 and 19)

 

This will allow the retirement of the majority of the 2004 DCBNA Orion 07.501 CNG Low Floor fleet. There is a possibility that Orions with tanks that are not near expiration may be kept, if so, it would be a very small batch (much like how some of the 2002-03 batches hung around). As of now, expect some New Flyer XN40 units to be transferred from Gleason to the Farms when Gleason gets their batch of XN60 units.

Why can’t they transfer the C40LF buses from Gleason to West Farms when they get the XN60 units? Is it because they need more new buses?

[The Real]

Just now, JeremiahC99 said:

Why can’t they transfer the C40LF buses from Gleason to West Farms when they get the XN60 units? Is it because they need more new buses?

 

The deciding factor in what buses get shifted when a new fleet arrives is based on the average fleet age of a depot. If C40LF units are transferred instead of the XN units, Gleason's average fleet age would be too young. So to balance this, they'll keep all their C40LF units while the new XN60 units displace XN40 units to the Farms. This move also balances out West Farms average fleet age.

[JeremiahC99]

4 minutes ago, The Real said:

 

The deciding factor in what buses get shifted when a new fleet arrives is based on the average fleet age of a depot. If C40LF units are transferred instead of the XN units, Gleason's average fleet age would be too young. So to balance this, they'll keep all their C40LF units while the new XN60 units displace XN40 units to the Farms. This move also balances out West Farms average fleet age.

I was surprised that they were going to transfer the XN40s from Gleason (JG). I was hoping that they would transfer the C40LF to have a majority of Gleason’s fleet in the new scheme, but my hopes were wrong.

[4 via Mosholu]

3 hours ago, The Real said:

This will allow the retirement of the majority of the 2004 DCBNA Orion 07.501 CNG Low Floor fleet. There is a possibility that Orions with tanks that are not near expiration may be kept, if so, it would be a very small batch (much like how some of the 2002-03 batches hung around). As of now, expect some New Flyer XN40 units to be transferred from Gleason to the Farms when Gleason gets their batch of XN60 units.

Out of the Xcelsior XN40 buses in the 742 to 810 group for Fifth Avenue (Jackie Gleason), which ones are perhaps going to be transferred north to the Coliseum (West Farms) to retire the many ZF Ecolite Orion VII CNG buses in the 7685 to 7819 group?

[Brillant93]

Is it possible TA will order more cng buses once the older ones at WF will be retired in near future? 

[MysteriousBtrain]

1054-1109 (56) isn't really enough to displace all artic's at WF, especially if the Bx6 SBS/Bx36 will be converted artic full-time. The most I see is the D60s and VIIs leaving the depot. Of course it may not be the case but that's my thoughts.

[The Real]

2 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

Out of the Xcelsior XN40 buses in the 742 to 810 group for Fifth Avenue (Jackie Gleason), which ones are perhaps going to be transferred north to the Coliseum (West Farms) to retire the many ZF Ecolite Orion VII CNG buses in the 7685 to 7819 group?

Well first of all, the 2004 DCBNA Orion 07.501 CNGs do not have ZF EcoLIFE transmissions in them, they have ZF ECOMAT-2 transmissions. The ONLY buses with ZF Ecolife transmissions are Orion 7 EPA 10 Gen 4 7000-7089; Nova LFSAs 5253-5363, 5439-5530, 5770-5986; Nova LFS 8015-8503; New Flyer XD60 4785-4799, 5364-5438; New Flyer XN40 673-810 and New Flyer XN60 1000-1109.

Secondly, the information of the exact fleet numbers of XN40 units to be transferred from Gleason to the Farms is not available.

Edited March 19, 2018 by The Real

[The Real]

4 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

1054-1109 (56) isn't really enough to displace all artic's at WF, especially if the Bx6 SBS/Bx36 will be converted artic full-time. The most I see is the D60s and VIIs leaving the depot. Of course it may not be the case but that's my thoughts.

Let me start out by saying that these XN60 units are NOT replacement buses for ANY articulateds at West Farms, these XN60s are direct replacements for the 2004 Orion VII/CNG fleet. This fleet of articulated buses is to supplement the current articulated fleet at West Farms which is to allow the conversion of the Bx6SBS and the Bx36 to articulated fleets. The D60s are being displaced slowly by LFSAs coming out of SBS service in Manhattan. 5934 and 5935 have already arrived to West Farms and have been unwrapped.

[The Real]

1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

Is it possible TA will order more cng buses once the older ones at WF will be retired in near future? 

Once the XN60s clear out the Orion VII/CNGs, the oldest CNGs in the fleet, the C40LFs, will only be a mere 7-8 years old....They have at minimum another 7-8 years of service as the Tanks of the C40LFs are rated for 15-20 years of service.

Edited March 19, 2018 by The Real

[JeremiahC99]

56 minutes ago, The Real said:

Let me start out by saying that these XN60 units are NOT replacement buses for ANY articulateds at West Farms, these XN60s are direct replacements for the 2004 Orion VII/CNG fleet. This fleet of articulated buses is to supplement the current articulated fleet at West Farms which is to allow the conversion of the Bx6SBS and the Bx36 to articulated fleets. The D60s are being displaced slowly by LFSAs coming out of SBS service in Manhattan. 5934 and 5935 have already arrived to West Farms and have been unwrapped.

So West Farms will not become 100% CNG?

[4 via Mosholu]

6 hours ago, The Real said:

Well first of all, the 2004 DCBNA Orion 07.501 CNGs do not have ZF EcoLIFE transmissions in them, they have ZF ECOMAT-2 transmissions. The ONLY buses with ZF Ecolife transmissions are Orion 7 EPA 10 Gen 4 7000-7089; Nova LFSAs 5253-5363, 5439-5530, 5770-5986; Nova LFS 8015-8503; New Flyer XD60 4785-4799, 5364-5438; New Flyer XN40 673-810 and New Flyer XN60 1000-1109.

Thank you @The Real for letting me know this. I got the specific ZF transmission for that group of Orions (the 2004 Orion VII CNG) wrong.