Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Lance]

On the subject of the opening itself, it is nice to see them stick to the 2016 deadline (kinda), but I do wonder how long will it be until the line is closed for "planned maintenance".

It looks like I got my answer sooner than I thought.

 

 

Trains will run every six minutes during peak hours and will run from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. for the rest of the first week. Overnight service will begin on Monday, January 9.

Courtesy: MTA Press Release

 

Now this is just ridiculous. I'd much rather the stations be completed before opening so we don't have to go through this open/closed nonsense. The line's already 75+ years late. What's a couple more weeks? Get the stations in order before the grand opening and then be able to keep the stations open 24/7. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Lance

[MysteriousBtrain]

It looks like I got my answer sooner than I thought.

 

Courtesy: MTA Press Release

 

Now this is just ridiculous. I'd much rather the stations be completed before opening so we don't have to go through this open/closed nonsense. The line's already 75+ years late. What's a couple more weeks? Get the stations in order before the grand opening and then be able to keep the stations open 24/7.

It makes sense in a way, and tbh something is better than nothing. It's not like the 2nd Av line will burst with riders in the nighttime.

[Fresh Pond]

So much for me going in the middle of the night for photos lol

[cl94]

There isn't a good reason other than politics to just keep the damn thing closed for another couple days to finish everything up. That being said, it would theoretically allow us to see immediate benefits in the form of reduced congestion on the . 

[P3F]

If they do actually run some trips before January 1st, I wonder if the ridership is going to be counted? Then the three stations would make it into the 2016 chart.

[IAlam]

So riders will not get confused to Astoria and "to 96 St via 2 Av Line".

I know I shouldn't bump something old but I want to add if I saw 3 trains in a row my first assumption as a normal rider would be that the is f**ked.  

 

Also I'd assume the MTA would do something Similar to 34th Where they open the station midday on a Sunday. (January 1st)

[trainfan22]

I hope the wrapped 160 keeps that wrap a few weeks after the SAS opens... The Yankee Wrapped 142 ran on the for a while after the Subway Series ended.

[RailRunRob]

There isn't a good reason other than politics to just keep the damn thing closed for another couple days to finish everything up. That being said, it would theoretically allow us to see immediate benefits in the form of reduced congestion on the . 

I don't think you'll see much benefits. I just don't see it. Even at 250k on the extension that's still over a million on the Lex daily.

[Caelestor]

I don't think you'll see much benefits. I just don't see it. Even at 250k on the extension that's still over a million on the Lex daily.

 

I actually think SAS ridership will be higher than predicted just because people want to get away from the Lex and check out the new line that was proposed 100 years ago. The trains are going to be overcrowded, but I think the will see significant improvements in reliability.

[RailRunRob]

I actually think SAS ridership will be higher than predicted just because people want to get away from the Lex and check out the new line that was proposed 100 years ago. The trains are going to be overcrowded, but I think the will see significant improvements in reliability.

I guess my question would be where are riders going? What's the transfer points? Are people currently transferring to the or at 59th? What about 51st?  I just feel most riders are going to the Wall street or the East Midtown area. I could be wrong but if these are the area's UES riders are going they still have to get back on the Lex somewhere. Sure some people are going to the Westside and the will be welcomed people using the or to continue your trip south yeah maybe. This is a part one of a four-part story. But right now let's call it what it is and the would be an extension. Part (Phase) 3 is where it get's interesting. Until then the SAS is a SAE  (Second Ave Extension)

Edited December 20, 2016 by RailRunRob

[Wallyhorse]

It makes sense in a way, and tbh something is better than nothing. It's not like the 2nd Av line will burst with riders in the nighttime.

I would not be so sure.  There is a reason why as soon as the goes back to Metropolitan Avenue after the work on that stretch is completed in the spring of 2018 I would split the into and with the "Orange " running 5TPH weekdays, 3TPH late nights and 6-9TPH weekends between Metropolitan Avenue and 96th Street-2nd Avenue (the bigger number on weekends being the "Orange " would be the only line running from Broadway-Brooklyn along 6th Avenue then for those who don't read other threads).  

[Porter]

Sorry, I'm sure I brought this up before, but after looking at the new maps I can't help but wish that Phase 2 served Third Avenue–138th Street and Third Avenue–149th Street instead of Lexington Avenue–125th Street. This would mean building four stations instead of three (assuming that a station at Second Avenue–125th Street wouldn't be feasible), but wouldn't it be cheaper to dig straight north instead of curving under Manhattan city blocks and westward? I think this arrangement would alleviate the Lexington IRT corridor more noticeably.

[paulrivera]

While I wish our Governor would be this proactive on other matters (like funding), it's still nice to see him flex his muscles and have the MTA quake and quiver in his presence.

 

Good job Governor. Now make East Side Access for the LIRR and West Side Access for the New Haven Line happen quickly too, and I'll vote for you in 2018.

[Caelestor]

Sorry, I'm sure I brought this up before, but after looking at the new maps I can't help but wish that Phase 2 served Third Avenue–138th Street and Third Avenue–149th Street instead of Lexington Avenue–125th Street. This would mean building four stations instead of three (assuming that a station at Second Avenue–125th Street wouldn't be feasible), but wouldn't it be cheaper to dig straight north instead of curving under Manhattan city blocks and westward? I think this arrangement would alleviate the Lexington IRT corridor more noticeably.

 

 

It's technically not too late to get the MTA to change their minds. A new draft EIR will probably delay completion of Phase 2 by 5 years, but it's more important to get it right imo. I personally think that a Bronx extension is guaranteed to be more expensive, since 4 stations are more expensive than three and a new underwater tunnel should be $1 billion at least. The benefit would be to permanently solve the overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue express tracks, since riders will transfer to the for Midtown West.

 

In any case, 125 St - 2 Ave shouldn't be built because the walkshed is too restricted and projected ridership would be too low for the cost.

[RailRunRob]

Sorry, I'm sure I brought this up before, but after looking at the new maps I can't help but wish that Phase 2 served Third Avenue–138th Street and Third Avenue–149th Street instead of Lexington Avenue–125th Street. This would mean building four stations instead of three (assuming that a station at Second Avenue–125th Street wouldn't be feasible), but wouldn't it be cheaper to dig straight north instead of curving under Manhattan city blocks and westward? I think this arrangement would alleviate the Lexington IRT corridor more noticeably.

Where do you see the alleviation what I'm I missing?  What's the major difference between Lexington -125 and extending to the Bronx?  You're connecting to the same lines at 125th. Shy of the but if I'm going to Midtown West I can get there with a one-seat ride for the most part already.

 

It's technically not too late to get the MTA to change their minds. A new draft EIR will probably delay completion of Phase 2 by 5 years, but it's more important to get it right imo. I personally think that a Bronx extension is guaranteed to be more expensive, since 4 stations are more expensive than three and a new underwater tunnel should be $1 billion at least. The benefit would be to permanently solve the overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue express tracks, since riders will transfer to the for Midtown West.

 

In any case, 125 St - 2 Ave shouldn't be built because the walkshed is too restricted and projected ridership would be too low for the cost.

How's is the solving overcrowding? It doesn't duplicate the Lex. Sure some people could benefit but reroute the floodgates think that's reaching a bit. Without phases 3 and 4 I don't see it. What are you basing your statement on I could be wrong but I'm always open for new information.

Edited December 20, 2016 by RailRunRob

[Around the Horn]

Where do you see the alleviation what I'm I missing? What's the major difference between Lexington -125 and extending to the Bronx? You're connecting to the same lines at 125th. Shy of the but if I'm going to Midtown West I can get there with a one-seat ride for the most part already.

 

How's is the solving overcrowding? It doesn't duplicate the Lex. Sure some people could benefit but reroute the floodgates think that's reaching a bit. Without phases 3 and 4 I don't see it. What are you basing your statement on I could be wrong but I'm always open for new information.

You're diverting people off the Lex before they even enter Manhattan. This also reduces the amount of people walking through 125th Street, the single biggest choke point on the Lex.

[cl94]

125th Street is a clusterf**k as it is. That being said, it would give them a starting point for a crosstown line up that way to connect everything.

[Mysterious2train]

I guess my question would be where are riders going? What's the transfer points? Are people currently transferring to the or at 59th? What about 51st?  I just feel most riders are going to the Wall street or the East Midtown area. I could be wrong but if these are the area's UES riders are going they still have to get back on the Lex somewhere. Sure some people are going to the Westside and the will be welcomed people using the or to continue your trip south yeah maybe. This is a part one of a four-part story. But right now let's call it what it is and the would be an extension. Part (Phase) 3 is where it get's interesting. Until then the SAS is a SAE  (Second Ave Extension)

 

Don't forget riders going to Lower Manhattan can also switch to the at Canal St, or even the at 42nd St (which wouldn't be so good due to the crowds, but I'm just saying). The has a lot of transfers people can utilize. Like the . For example, if you were going from somewhere on the Queens Blvd Line to Union Square, you might take the to the , or the , but now you'd have an easy transfer from the to the at 63rd St. And yes, the is not as good as a full new trunk line, but as long we're getting some people off the Lex and onto lesser-used lines, it's a victory. 

 

Sorry, I'm sure I brought this up before, but after looking at the new maps I can't help but wish that Phase 2 served Third Avenue–138th Street and Third Avenue–149th Street instead of Lexington Avenue–125th Street. This would mean building four stations instead of three (assuming that a station at Second Avenue–125th Street wouldn't be feasible), but wouldn't it be cheaper to dig straight north instead of curving under Manhattan city blocks and westward? I think this arrangement would alleviate the Lexington IRT corridor more noticeably.

 

Maybe you haven't brought this up, but don't worry, this thread has the same "Phase 2 should go to the Bronx instead of turning on 125th St" conversation pretty much every single week. Over and over. Forever and ever.

[Porter]

Where do you see the alleviation what I'm I missing?  What's the major difference between Lexington -125 and extending to the Bronx?  You're connecting to the same lines at 125th. Shy of the but if I'm going to Midtown West I can get there with a one-seat ride for the most part already.

 

It's not so much about adding access (although that's a big plus), but more so about lightening the load before the three greens converge at Lexington Avenue–125th Street. It also spaces out the load between the and .

 

125th Street is a clusterf**k as it is. That being said, it would give them a starting point for a crosstown line up that way to connect everything.

 

The two paths are not mutually exclusive in the end. Spurs pointing to Lexington Avenue–125th Street can be built during Phase 2, just as they were built on the 63rd Street line for the Second Avenue line (one pair north of it and one pair south of it). The can take one terminus and the can take the other (which service should terminate at which terminus is likely controversial).

 

Maybe you haven't brought this up, but don't worry, this thread has the same "Phase 2 should go to the Bronx instead of turning on 125th St" conversation pretty much every single week. Over and over. Forever and ever.

 

It's, quite frankly, a better idea, and the original intention.

[RailRunRob]

You're diverting people off the Lex before they even enter Manhattan. This also reduces the amount of people walking through 125th Street, the single biggest choke point on the Lex.

I guess my major disconnection is no one's is saying where riders are actually going once they reach Manhattan. That's my question.

In my mind, it's just shifting weight or flow.  One water pipe splits to four pipes but then further down the line those four pipes combine to make a single pipe again with the same amount of water. In essence, you're playing with bandwidth but you're not creating any additional.   Are we saying people aren't going find their way back to the Lex once in Manhattan?  What's the matrix? Are People traveling to Midtown? If so what're the numbers? 45% 30% what are the transfer points. 59th-Lex, 51-Lex?.  I haven't had anyone present that data  I haven't found anything major ether if you know where to find it let me know.  Haven't seen the design for 125th do you feel it's not sufficient for transfers?

[Porter]

I personally think that a Bronx extension is guaranteed to be more expensive, since 4 stations are more expensive than three and a new underwater tunnel should be $1 billion at least.

 

The expensive and less useful 106th Street Station could be put on hold like the Tenth Avenue Station of the . 116th Street is the one with serious demand from the Harlem community.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Skipper

[Around the Horn]

The expensive and less useful 106th Street Station could be put on hold like the Tenth Avenue Station of the . 116th Street is the one with serious demand from the Harlem community.

 

116th is the expensive one not 106th. The current tunnel ends at 105th while the 116th Street station is smack dab in the middle of the 110th-120th segment.

[RailRunRob]

Don't forget riders going to Lower Manhattan can also switch to the at Canal St, or even the at 42nd St (which wouldn't be so good due to the crowds, but I'm just saying). The has a lot of transfers people can utilize. Like the . For example, if you were going from somewhere on the Queens Blvd Line to Union Square, you might take the to the , or the , but now you'd have an easy transfer from the to the at 63rd St. And yes, the is not as good as a full new trunk line, but as long we're getting some people off the Lex and onto lesser-used lines, it's a victory. 

 

 

Maybe you haven't brought this up, but don't worry, this thread has the same "Phase 2 should go to the Bronx instead of turning on 125th St" conversation pretty much every single week. Over and over. Forever and ever.

I can look at the map and see the transfer points. And I'm not saying this extension isn't going to be helpful so much is still very much nebulous. Feels over hyped  So many other dimensions are not being taken into account here. Of all the through traffic on the Lexington where are people completing their trips? ie 45% Financial district, 20% Midtown, 10% Chelsea  5% UES where is this data? I'm just at a loss to how we can be having this discussion without this information. It's like building a car with no blueprint  schematics or basic needs of the driver. That's all I've been asking from the start just trying to make a more informed statement. Just point me in the right direction.  Then there's perception if I live on 86th and 3rd and I'm going to Fulton and William. Am I going to try that crowded with a one seater or take the less crowded new with a two-seat ride and transfer points that breaks rank with my 10-year pattern. It's human nature to think that somehow today's different "The wont be slow today."

"Maybe all the people are taking that new SAS" You learn quickly that sometimes what you think people are going to do isn't what it is in reality. The MTA's going to have to work on PR as well to get people to consider alternate routes. Anyways where's that rider data? Id like to see it.   

Edited December 20, 2016 by RailRunRob

[RailRunRob]

116th is the expensive one not 106th. The current tunnel ends at 105th while the 116th Street station is smack dab in the middle of the 110th-120th segment.

I believe it was built a three-track segment remember there was no plan for an 116th stop in the 70's might be able to create an island with some tweaks. Still work but abit less work.

Edited December 20, 2016 by RailRunRob

[bobtehpanda]

I guess my major disconnection is no one's is saying where riders are actually going once they reach Manhattan. That's my question.

In my mind, it's just shifting weight or flow.  One water pipe splits to four pipes but then further down the line those four pipes combine to make a single pipe again with the same amount of water. In essence, you're playing with bandwidth but you're not creating any additional.   Are we saying people aren't going find their way back to the Lex once in Manhattan?  What's the matrix? Are People traveling to Midtown? If so what're the numbers? 45% 30% what are the transfer points. 59th-Lex, 51-Lex?.  I haven't had anyone present that data  I haven't found anything major ether if you know where to find it let me know.  Haven't seen the design for 125th do you feel it's not sufficient for transfers?

 

The MTA did not publish any detailed route analysis, but trying to predict specific diversions is impossible because there are so many factors involved.

 

That being said, the FTA reviewed the MTA's findings and felt that it was strong enough to provide funding for. Given that ridership on all FTA-approved projects has generally exceeded expectations by a mile (UniversityLink in Seattle, Houston METRO, etc.) I expect that SAS Phase I will also end up hitting ridership targets early.

 

Regarding the statement in bold, why would anyone transfer from the Lex, to the SAS, back to the Lex, when they could just stay on the thing? People whose destinations are closer to SAS stations will just take the SAS instead of walking a couple extra blocks from the Lex like they do now.