Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

AH okay. I would make that a separate route from the JFK one.

 

As for the Bay Ridge-JFK route, Ft Hamilton Parkway to Caton Av to Linden Blvd is the most straightforward routing because Linden Blvd on the eastern end connects with Conduit Av and the B15. Then you would follow that into JFK.

I just question is there is a need for such a route and where the ridership would come from. 

[checkmatechamp13]

But for that you can just cab it.  From most of South Brooklyn it's roughly $20-30 dollars.  That's what I did when traveling to and from JFK and flying to Europe.  I mean seriously if you can't afford a taxi to JFK and you're flying with all of those bags, there's a problem.  But in any event, I do agree that there needs to be an East-West style SBS or limited, though I wouldn't have it starting on Shore Road of all places. lol Seriously, those folks are driving or taking the express bus.  Very few using the local buses like that.  Most of Shore Road has always been expensive.  I know since I considered moving back there myself from Staten Island years ago.  I would start it on 4th and 86th so it connects with the B1, and the S53 and S79 and run it along 86th street making limited stops and using artics.  A JFK route would have to make fewer stops in order to be attractive.  No one will want to sit on a bus making that many stops.  

 

It's not just about the people traveling, but also about people working there. Airports are fairly big employment centers for low- to middle-wage workers, which are the type of people who would most likely use the bus service.

 

I just question is there is a need for such a route and where the ridership would come from. 

 

Well right away, he has it replacing the B35 LTD, so he's going to be taking some of that ridership. The problem of course, is that you make service more unreliable on the core portion of the B35, because now you don't have any short-turns starting at McDonald Avenue (because they're all being extended to Sunset Park). 

 

I would agree that a Bay Ridge-JFK route should take a different route, likely along the Belt where possible.

[Armandito]

It's not just about the people traveling, but also about people working there. Airports are fairly big employment centers for low- to middle-wage workers, which are the type of people who would most likely use the bus service.

 

 

Well right away, he has it replacing the B35 LTD, so he's going to be taking some of that ridership. The problem of course, is that you make service more unreliable on the core portion of the B35, because now you don't have any short-turns starting at McDonald Avenue (because they're all being extended to Sunset Park).

 

I would agree that a Bay Ridge-JFK route should take a different route, likely along the Belt where possible.

But the Belt is plagued with tons of traffic problems...

[Future ENY OP]

Brooklyn could use a second bus route to JFK. It would start in Bay Ridge and travel via Fort Hamilton Parkway, Church Avenue, Linden Boulevard, and Conduit Avenue, replacing the B35 Limited east of McDonald Avenue (the B35 would become a local-only route along its entire length from Sunset Park to Brownsville). It would make only the following stops:

 

On 4th Avenue:

Shore Road

 

On Fort Hamilton Parkway:

95th Street

86th Street

Bay Ridge Parkway

Bay Ridge Avenue

62nd Street

60th Street

New Utrecht Avenue

49th/50th Streets

39th Street

 

On 39th Street:

12th Avenue

 

On Church Avenue/Hegeman Avenue:

All current B35 Limited stops

 

On New Lots Avenue:

Van Sinderen Avenue (westbound)

 

On Linden Boulevard:

Van Sinderen Avenue (eastbound)

Pennsylvania Avenue

Fountain Avenue

Eldert Lane

 

On Lefferts Boulevard:

Lefferts Boulevard AirTrain station

 

Then all stops within JFK Airport

 

Link to map: http://mapq.st/2dmOr5A

I kinda wanted to read the responses before chiming in on this, and here is my analogy on this.

 

As bad as Brooklyn traffic is. There is no need for a 2nd bus to JFK. Why I say this is for the following. You want to streamline the service so that there are less traffic headaches. The belt is atrocious. The forementioned routes you mentioned. Also atrocious. You are directly taking away ridership from the B35 which is mainly a main feeder to those who need the B15 which does a decent job going to JFK.

 

Bay Ridge is too far to start a JFK route. If your proposal stated to start the line possibly in Sunset Park OR Flatbush than you would have a fighting chance. It's easier to fight thru Sunset Park // Flatbush traffic depending where you start the route rather than Bay Ridge.

 

Just my 2 cents. Carry on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's not just about the people traveling, but also about people working there. Airports are fairly big employment centers for low- to middle-wage workers, which are the type of people who would most likely use the bus service.

Of course it isn't but how many people are working at JFK that live in these areas?  Whatever they are using now, this new service would have to be faster, and I don't see how it could be. What routes could it take to not be bogged down in traffic?  Starting in Bay Ridge... I just don't see it.  

[B22viaAtlanticAv]

Of course it isn't but how many people are working at JFK that live in these areas? Whatever they are using now, this new service would have to be faster, and I don't see how it could be. What routes could it take to not be bogged down in traffic? Starting in Bay Ridge... I just don't see it.

Don't know if this could work cause Ave P could be a PITA at times but the rest is doable;

 

From 4av-86st

On 86st to Bay Pkwy

Left on Bay Pkwy to Ave P

Right on Ave P runs out to Kings Hwy

Stay on Kings Hwy Until Ave K

Right on Ave K then Left on Flatlands Ave

Stay on Flatlands to Fountain Ave

Left on Fountain To Linden Blvd

Right on Linden then Follow B15 to JFk

 

The return trip is reversible given each of the streets above are two way with at least two travel lane in each direction.

Edited October 20, 2016 by B102 LTD

[Armandito]

Don't know if this could work cause Ave P could be a PITA at times but the rest is doable;

 

From 4av-86st

On 86st to Bay Pkwy

Left on Bay Pkwy to Ave P

Right on Ave P runs out to Kings Hwy

Stay on Kings Hwy Until Ave K

Right on Ave K then Left on Flatlands Ave

Stay on Flatlands to Fountain Ave

Left on Fountain To Linden Blvd

Right on Linden then Follow B15 to JFk

 

The return trip is reversible given each of the streets above are two way with at least two travel lane in each direction.

The Avenue P segment lies too close to the B82, so you'd probably be better off routing it straight on Kings Highway.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Don't know if this could work cause Ave P could be a PITA at times but the rest is doable;

 

From 4av-86st

On 86st to Bay Pkwy

Left on Bay Pkwy to Ave P

Right on Ave P runs out to Kings Hwy

Stay on Kings Hwy Until Ave K

Right on Ave K then Left on Flatlands Ave

Stay on Flatlands to Fountain Ave

Left on Fountain To Linden Blvd

Right on Linden then Follow B15 to JFk

 

The return trip is reversible given each of the streets above are two way with at least two travel lane in each direction.

 

 

The Avenue P segment lies too close to the B82, so you'd probably be better off routing it straight on Kings Highway.

Isn't the whole point of such a route to run in areas where it will pick up passengers though? 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Southern Brooklyn has some of the longest travel times in the borough to JFK. Starting in Bay Ridge would allow people taking the B1, B16, B70, S53, S79 and S93 to access a direct bus to the airport.

 

I think a similar route has been in the planning stages at the DOT, for several years now.

 

The B15 (formerly B10) was chosen to be extended after the Port Authority did a study of where airport/airline employees lived. Basically, most employees who lived in Brooklyn at the time lived near the B15 or near another route with a transfer privilege to it. 

[Armandito]

Don't know if this could work cause Ave P could be a PITA at times but the rest is doable;

 

From 4av-86st

On 86st to Bay Pkwy

Left on Bay Pkwy to Ave P

Right on Ave P runs out to Kings Hwy

Stay on Kings Hwy Until Ave K

Right on Ave K then Left on Flatlands Ave

Stay on Flatlands to Fountain Ave

Left on Fountain To Linden Blvd

Right on Linden then Follow B15 to JFk

 

The return trip is reversible given each of the streets above are two way with at least two travel lane in each direction.

I personally would reroute it via Bay Parkway, then onto Avenue J, and then straight to Flatlands Avenue to avoid duplicating the B82. Edited October 21, 2016 by lara8710

[B22viaAtlanticAv]

I personally would reroute it via Bay Parkway, then onto Avenue J, and then straight to Flatlands Avenue to avoid duplicating the B82.

But then is would also duplicate the B6 in the process and besides traffic on Ave J  can  get out of control during peak periods.

Although I never thought of Ave J as a good street for buses period; maybe it could work.

[Armandito]

But then is would also duplicate the B6 in the process and besides traffic on Ave J can get out of control during peak periods.

Although I never thought of Ave J as a good street for buses period; maybe it could work.

Unlike the B6, it won't serve Brooklyn College, and I plan to run it as either a LTD or SBS route. Edited October 21, 2016 by lara8710

[Armandito]

Original: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aKrgAH5jTE-ZM0iB8yQK1yjVKCg&usp=sharing

 

Alternate: https://drive.google.com/open?id=17_1dhiAQQOzdRO3h_cUvivC0EGo&usp=sharing

 

I don't know which of these routes would work better for a Bay Ridge-JFK bus...

[Interested Rider]

What I am concerned about is that sometimes when a route is being proposed, does anyone take into consideration that when is a route being proposed is too long?  While the route may look good on the computer (used to be on paper), but will it be viable in terms of running time?. Taking the latter point first, the reference to the Belt always being loaded with traffic also applies to many of the east-west and north south arteries  in Brooklyn as well.  The streets where there is a large amount of businesses are also the streets with most of the delays. 86th Street, Church Avenue, Kings Highway and Avenue J have certain portions where there is virtual gridlock. Some of the  proposals suggest routing the new route on these streets where trip times are subject to extensive delays or will the route run better if shifted to other streets,such as Avenue P, 65th Street, Linden Boulevard where there is traffic but not subject to the extensive delays that are found on other streets (An aside as Caton Avenue has become very heavy over the last couple of months according to MTA info (bus), does the route get rerouted to Parkside Avenue as there is less traffic? For a route to be viable, it cannot be too long and that is what comes into play here. As Via Garibaldi stated in discussing the Sheepshead Bay Community on the B/36 thread, the area has become car oriented in that people are using their cars as compared with riding the bus. What she said also applies to other communities where this route is being proposed.  I live in Southern Brooklyn and when I had to fly anywhere, I used car service as the price was reasonable and it took less time. for me to get from the airport even with calling the car service.  

[Armandito]

What I am concerned about is that sometimes when a route is being proposed, does anyone take into consideration that when is a route being proposed is too long? While the route may look good on the computer (used to be on paper), but will it be viable in terms of running time?. Taking the latter point first, the reference to the Belt always being loaded with traffic also applies to many of the east-west and north south arteries in Brooklyn as well. The streets where there is a large amount of businesses are also the streets with most of the delays. 86th Street, Church Avenue, Kings Highway and Avenue J have certain portions where there is virtual gridlock. Some of the proposals suggest routing the new route on these streets where trip times are subject to extensive delays or will the route run better if shifted to other streets,such as Avenue P, 65th Street, Linden Boulevard where there is traffic but not subject to the extensive delays that are found on other streets (An aside as Caton Avenue has become very heavy over the last couple of months according to MTA info (bus), does the route get rerouted to Parkside Avenue as there is less traffic? For a route to be viable, it cannot be too long and that is what comes into play here. As Via Garibaldi stated in discussing the Sheepshead Bay Community on the B/36 thread, the area has become car oriented in that people are using their cars as compared with riding the bus. What she said also applies to other communities where this route is being proposed. I live in Southern Brooklyn and when I had to fly anywhere, I used car service as the price was reasonable and it took less time. for me to get from the airport even with calling the car service.

If such a route won't be viable, at least residents of Gerritsen Beach could get a route that digs deeper into Brooklyn: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cZtQK3xWIKZDDtEhJQeEy42iuJ0&usp=sharing

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Original: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aKrgAH5jTE-ZM0iB8yQK1yjVKCg&usp=sharing

 

Alternate: https://drive.google.com/open?id=17_1dhiAQQOzdRO3h_cUvivC0EGo&usp=sharing

 

I don't know which of these routes would work better for a Bay Ridge-JFK bus...

 

I would use Avenue J and skip the loop through Canarsie Terminal.

[B35 via Church]

What I am concerned about is that sometimes when a route is being proposed, does anyone take into consideration that when is a route being proposed is too long?  While the route may look good on the computer (used to be on paper), but will it be viable in terms of running time?. Taking the latter point first, the reference to the Belt always being loaded with traffic also applies to many of the east-west and north south arteries  in Brooklyn as well.  The streets where there is a large amount of businesses are also the streets with most of the delays. 86th Street, Church Avenue, Kings Highway and Avenue J have certain portions where there is virtual gridlock. Some of the  proposals suggest routing the new route on these streets where trip times are subject to extensive delays or will the route run better if shifted to other streets,such as Avenue P, 65th Street, Linden Boulevard where there is traffic but not subject to the extensive delays that are found on other streets (An aside as Caton Avenue has become very heavy over the last couple of months according to MTA info (bus), does the route get rerouted to Parkside Avenue as there is less traffic? For a route to be viable, it cannot be too long and that is what comes into play here. As Via Garibaldi stated in discussing the Sheepshead Bay Community on the B/36 thread, the area has become car oriented in that people are using their cars as compared with riding the bus. What she said also applies to other communities where this route is being proposed.  I live in Southern Brooklyn and when I had to fly anywhere, I used car service as the price was reasonable and it took less time. for me to get from the airport even with calling the car service.  

Anyone? Well yes, I take all of that into consideration; I'll even go as far as to say that I don't care how a route "looks" on paper - Never did (as I like to say, straighter doesn't always mean better, a turn or two can make all the difference as to how well a route does [the B12 is a good example of that]).... That's the one thing I can say about my proposals... As that's not what it's about anyway - It's (or should be) about the riders taking these buses; something the MTA tends to... forget

 

You see enough bus routing ideas over the years & in the vast majority of them, what's conspicuous is the blatant ignorance (not knowing) or blatant ignoring (not caring to know) of how said route would affect the rest of the network.... BrooklynBus said it best a while back; it's kinda like fitting the (correct pieces) to a puzzle.... I'd hate to think that it's laziness, but sometimes you have to call a spade, a spade.....

------

 

 

 

But as for the topic at hand, I've abhorred that Bay Ridge - JFK route since the very first time back in the 90's that I saw someone propose it (IDK if it was on BrooklynBus' old map of proposals; "routes 2 better serve brooklyn" or something like that, or if someone else mentioned the general idea in a post first, but in either case, I never cared for it)....

Someone (I believe it was VG8) mentioned, just who's supposed to be taking this route? Living around here, I'm NOT convinced that you're going to get a considerable amt. of ridership from up off the B35 & onto a route running along Linden.... The B15 (usage-wise) will be affected far more than the B35 would.... There's just way too much service provided on the B35 to abandon it for such a proposed route (that'd run on Linden nonetheless) - unless the onus is to bastardize service on the B35 for a Bay Ridge-JFK route, which to me is nothing short of stupid, I'm sorry.... That's like cutting service from the B46 &/or the B47 to give to the B7 - to have that route extended to Ridgewood (which has always been a popular proposal by some).....

 

Yes, Brooklyn can use an east-west route from SW Brooklyn, but having it head over to JFK is pushing it too damn far.....

[Interested Rider]

It is quite refreshing to read comments such as B/35 via Church has posted as it goes to the heart what masquerades as bus planning today. I read the various posts on the various threads and in other places and I wonder what is going on today. What is missing in this entire scenario is what does the riders (not the politicians who have helped to destroy bus service with everything under the sun that prevents the bus from providing service) want? If you ask the riders, it is not so much the routes but having the bus run on schedule which today is next to the impossible today. I do not want to read about fantasies as that what has gotten the system in trouble in the first place as it exists in proposals to interline which saves no time and has two routes delayed when problems occur. The idea of interlining routes or having operators work two different lines on their shifts is insane as before an operator who was running late could be put into place without any disruption  The insulated bureaucracy culture at the MTA has to be changed where it will be responsible to the riders and its operators. It will never happen as thanks to the great American President Woodrow Wilson and his love of the German style of government (and others that followed him), we now have a fourth branch of government that is totally insulated from the people that it is supposed to serve and it will  only get worse.

[BrooklynBus]

I have not been following this thread for a while so let me throw my two cents in regarding Brooklyn JFK bus service. There definitely needs to be a second, and third route to JFK. One route only from Bed Stuy is absolutely ridiculous. As I proposed in 2003 on my website http://Brooklynbus.tripod.com, a route from the Junction as I outlined and another for southern Brooklyn via the Belt Parkway. Also extension of a Limited B35 from McDonald via Church, Linden and making only one more stop at Cross Bay would be good idea.

 

The reason:

 

JFK service from Brooklyn has to be the worst airport service from anywhere to a NY airport. I remember seeing all sorts of shared services to places like Westchester at more reasonable prices than a cab costs you from Brooklyn. I remember when the TLC started a reasonable fare for sharing rides and even that is now very high. Something needs to be done for visitors as well as employees and potential employees.

 

History:

 

In the early 90s, the MTA was thinking about a needed service from Bay Ridge but the route they proposed along Ft Hamilton Parkway and I believe Caton and Linden was just too cumbersome and time consuming given the traffic. The only way it could be done is using the Belt Parkway.

But the Belt is often plagued with traffic delays. Without delays, the trip from Bay Ridge with a few stops would only be slightly longer than with a cab like 45 minutes to an hour. Using the route proposed by the MTA would take perhaps twice as long at all times and would be about the same time as the Belt with congestion.

 

In 2003, I proposed a route getting on and off the Belt Parkway avoiding the bridges that were having weight problems. Now all the problem bridges are being rebuilt with the lanes widened in many places.

 

The Future:

 

What I would propose today is that after all the reconstruction is complete in another few years (which would mitigate done of the traffic congestion) that buses be allowed to use the shoulder where one exists or could be built, as a bus only lane. That is the only condition where I could see a Belt Parkway route being feasible.

 

As far as the Avenue J or Avenue P / Flatlands route proposals, neither are a bargain trafficwise. (Neither is 86 St.) Avenue J is chronically congested near the Brighton Station. (Avenue K might be better.) And Avenue P is a standstill during rush hours. To use Avenue P, you would need to ban all parking on both sides of the street during rush hours. Don't think that would fly especially since they got rid of the municipal parking. (The private parking rates that replaced it is through the ceiling) That is why from Bay Ridge, the Belt after reconstruction is complete is the on,y feasible alternative. What also would help the Belt is a bridge from Avenue U to Seaview and another to connect the other Seaview. But the NIMBY's won't let that happen so Flatlands is the only Belt alternative and is also a mess when the Belt is backed up.

[B35 via Church]

As far as this discussion goes, another Brooklyn-JFK route isn't the issue.... It's the specific running of one from all the way from Bay Ridge... That is not necessary, just for the minimal sake of having a 2nd Brooklyn-JFK route....

 

I'm not exactly sure what "extension of a Limited B35 from McDonald...." is supposed to mean.... The Limited's all run from Sunset Park.... Are you saying that LTD service should terminate at McDonald, for the sake of running B35's to JFK? If so, then what happens to Sunset Park service exactly? An extension of locals? If none of this is the case, then I don't know what else to say regarding this.....

 

To be perfectly honest, I haven't thought of a proposal that involves another Brooklyn route running to JFK (terminals).... What I do have, is the B20 running to Lefferts AIRTrain (and cut back on the Ridgewood end), but it's not primarily for the purposes of *just so that it's another Brooklyn route running to JFK*.....

 

I've seen quite a few suggestions regarding the task, and the best one IMO (which is not saying much) had buses running from Prospect park subway via empire blvd, then running the old B12 route all the way to the Conduits, en route to JFK.... I can side w/ starting buses at Prospect Park sta., but utilizing Liberty to get to the Conduits is absolutely wasteful.....

 

Aside from the aforementioned suggestion, along w/ that Bay Ridge one, others included extending the B82, extending the B83 (this was well before it ever served Gateway), extending the B14, and the one that took the cake was a downtown-JFK route (don't remember the routing, nor do I care to... that's how ridiculous that is to me)....

Edited October 30, 2016 by B35 via Church

[BrooklynBus]

I don't understand why the area has to be commercial. That's precisely what makes it so slow to travel through in the first place (and the street, for its busy-ness seeming to be even narrower than Beverley).

 

Generally, they don't want big commercial vehicles on parkways. While a "parkway" usually refers to the semi-controlled access roads with the lower underpasses, it seems both Ocean and Eastern Parkways are treated the same. They are basically scenic, and they don't want them clogged with big trucks and buses and other commercial traffic. So they allow some buses on south of Ave. X (and I'm trying to remember if they stay on mostly the service lane. I think at least one of them may switch over to the main road, for the purpose of making the left turn, either direction).

 

So again, it's just a matter of them opening up another allowance for that first block to the north. But I doubt they'll ever allow the whole length of it.

Buses are not allowed on the main roads of Ocean and Eastern Parkway although some did once run there. The B14 westbound used to use the main roadway in the 1950s before being moved to the service road. The B9 used main roadway until much later before feint moved to the service road. The B1, and B4 use the main roadway only because they have done so since the 1920s as the B21. The only route that was added to the main roadway was the B36 in 1978. That was because no new stops were added that would block a lane. Also the B1 was allowed to operate between Avenue X and Z as a new route under the condition there would be no stops. The MTA wanted stops but DOT refused. I was present at those discussions.

 

So generally the only buses allowed to travel the whole length are school buses which seem to be exempt from the DOT rule of no buses on parkways. MTA buses have special permits.

[BrooklynBus]

Another Brooklyn-JFK route isn't the issue.... It's the running of one from all the way from Bay Ridge... That is not necessary.

I would only agree with you if it is quicker to take the R, change for the N, the LIRR, (or the R and change for the A) then the Airtrain than it would be for a bus from Bay Ridge via the Belt to JFK. Not to mention that a bus would be direct and not involve three transfers which is a problem with luggage and stairs. Don't believe Bay Ridge stations are handicap accessible. It would also open up employment opportunities which the MTA never considers when planning new services. They only look at existing demand.

[Q43LTD]

Nope, only 4 Av station that's wheelchair accessible is Atlantic-Barclays. 86 St is planned to have wheelchair accessibility 

[bobtehpanda]

JFK service from Brooklyn has to be the worst airport service from anywhere to a NY airport. I remember seeing all sorts of shared services to places like Westchester at more reasonable prices than a cab costs you from Brooklyn. I remember when the TLC started a reasonable fare for sharing rides and even that is now very high. Something needs to be done for visitors as well as employees and potential employees.

 

This is the kind of market which, if it existed, would be more appropriate for a private-market operator to serve. In reality airport routes are only ever heavily used by employees, and most employees don't live in southern Brooklyn (and barring a major change in demographics, that's not happening anytime soon.)

[BrooklynBus]

This is the kind of market which, if it existed, would be more appropriate for a private-market operator to serve. In reality airport routes are only ever heavily used by employees, and most employees don't live in southern Brooklyn (and barring a major change in demographics, that's not happening anytime soon.)

That's sort of like a chicken and egg. Of course few JFK employees come from southern Brooklyn because transportation to JFK from there is miserable unless you have access to a car. But that would change if it became more accessible. I bet there are more JFK employees living near the Barclay Center than say the Kings Highway Homecrest area for example, although Barclay Center is farther away.