Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Does anyone know how long the X29 took to get from South Midwood (let's say Kings Highway) to points in Manhattan? The train is fairly quick, so I'm interested to find out if the express bus (which had to wade through expressway traffic) was actually faster than the express train.

 

I guess the BM3 is in a similar situation.

It's been so long since I used the X29 that I can't remember, but I personally thought it made too many stops. I used it to get down to Coney Island Avenue and Avenue Z close to where my old neighborhood is and found it to be reasonable, but remember that was years ago when traffic wasn't as bad as it is now.  Likely around an hour or so give or take.  The BM3 on other hand now takes about an hour and a half roughly from Midtown to Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach. I always take it right around the border where Manhattan Beach starts by Emmons near Shore Blvd.  You have to remember that neither line is that close to the so it really is serving people not near the subway (be it the or the ).

[checkmatechamp13]

1) B1 should stay right where it is....

 

As for clear for SI buses to terminate? It doesn't interfere with any of the SI routes where it terminates...

(S79 terminates on 4th av b/w 86th & 87th - NB direction...

S53 terminates on 4th av b/w 86th & 87th - SB direction...

S93 terminates on 4th av, just south of 87th st - SB direction...

 

....B1's last dropoff is on 87th st at 4th av...

B1's first pickup is on 86th st, just east of 4th av...)

 

The only thing the KCC bound B1 interferes with, is the Lefferts Gdns. bound B16....  The first pickup stop of the B1 is a shared stop with the B16 in that direction...

 

Agreed 100%. And to add onto it, the reason the stops were shifted around was for the exact reason he's concerned about: Buses interfering with each other. At first, the S53/79/93 all stopped on the same side of the street, then they shifted the S79 across the street, but when they started realizing it was interfering with B1 service (I think this was back in 2011), they shifted the B1 stops to where they are now.

[Around the Horn]

I'd extend the B1 to Shore Road but not for the B.S. reason he gave.

[Eric B]

Does anyone know how long the X29 took to get from South Midwood (let's say Kings Highway) to points in Manhattan? The train is fairly quick, so I'm interested to find out if the express bus (which had to wade through expressway traffic) was actually faster than the express train.

 

I guess the BM3 is in a similar situation.

All of those expresses seemed fast, except for the whole McDonald/Church Ave. area diversion (and Cortelyou for the BM's). That's where you lost a lot of time, and then it would feel like it was now slower than the train. I always wished they would stay on the expwy and cut straight across Beverley.

[BreeddekalbL]

I'd extend the B1 to Shore Road but not for the B.S. reason he gave.

 

well this why we have these threads. and what's your reason for extending it to shore road.

 

Since my other question regarding the b41 got caught with my south brooklyn modifications 

can someone approximate the headways for the b41 from downtown to where they split for the bergen beach branch?

[BrooklynBus]

well this why we have these threads. and what's your reason for extending it to shore road.

 

Since my other question regarding the b41 got caught with my south brooklyn modifications 

can someone approximate the headways for the b41 from downtown to where they split for the bergen beach branch?

As I previously stated, the B1 needs to be extended to Shore Road, but not every bus. Every other bus perhaps.

[Around the Horn]

well this why we have these threads. and what's your reason for extending it to shore road.

Simple: to provide a crosstown bus service along the entire length of 86th Street.

 

It would also give Fort Hamilton students from Bath Beach, Dyker and Bensonhurst a one seat ride and possibly reduce dependency on the B16 school trippers.

[BreeddekalbL]

As I previously stated, the B1 needs to be extended to Shore Road, but not every bus. Every other bus perhaps.

 

I agree for me i would have every 3rd bus terminate there 

 

Simple: to provide a crosstown bus service along the entire length of 86th Street.

 

It would also give Fort Hamilton students from Bath Beach, Dyker and Bensonhurst a one seat ride and possibly reduce dependency on the B16 school trippers.

 

and i also agree with that too i said that it should be extended to fort hamilton HS but for different reason, it can also kill 2 birds with 1 stone

[Q43LTD]

Not to mention, give the B1 a better turnaround path

[Via Garibaldi 8]

As I previously stated, the B1 needs to be extended to Shore Road, but not every bus. Every other bus perhaps.

I don't know if I agree. The problem with this is Shore Road overall sees poor headways and if anything I would have the B1 extended south down Shore Road. The B16 just doesn't cut it down there.

[B35 via Church]

I have completed the B69 Map which showcases my proposal for the B69.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&hl=en&authuser=0&authuser=0&mid=1XFqE_hL6yPBW4ccBYDuHp1sjicA&ll=40.700387933461556%2C-73.9642167111424&z=15

It is under the "B69 Restructuing" Layer, so uncheck everything besides that layer if it isn't unchecked.

 

Essentially, the B69 would operate every 13-15 minutes during the rush, every 33 minutes during the midday hours on weekdays, every 30 minutes during evening hours and weekends. Service would start later and end later on the B69 route (especially towards Park Slope). Currently during the rush, there's a mish-mosh of what bus is more frequent than the other, leading to uneven headways during the rush hour. My proposal would also affect the B67 schedule, as the B67 would be subjected to the same headways as the B69.

Everything south of Flushing av I can agree with.... As was discussed in earlier posts, you don't really need the B69 & the B67 running to Kensington..... Even before the 2010 cuts or whatever, I never cared for the B69 ending at Sands/Jay - as no one at & south of Clinton Hill had any use for service west of Vanderbilt/Park...... FWIW, that terminal exists for not much more than a convenient turnaround... Always found it funny that much of no one takes the B67 north of Tillary, but you'll get a few college students here & there throughout the day waiting for SB buses; generallly taking it no further than as short as Fulton... B69 is even worse; after leaving the terminal, outside of JHS/MHS students sporadically using it along Flushing, forget it....

 

Everything north of Flushing av though, nah..... I don't like the idea of buses using Williamsburg st East/West (as apparently, somehow it became an unofficial parking lot for those Jewish charter buses & cheese buses) - that, and traffic tends to get gridlocked believe it or not during certain times.... Nor do I see a need for it running up to Greenpoint.... Simply put, the way you have it routed, I don't see much of anyone using it (in Williamsburg, or Greenpoint really).... I'd just have the B69 parallel the (real) B62 from Vanderbilt/Park to Division, then run over to WBP via Bedford -> Broadway (and for the return trip, buses would go Broadway -> Wythe).....

 

What I find funny about that B69 extension is that, if I'm somebody needing Manhattan av & I'm waiting at Classon/Wallabout, no question the (real) B62 would be the slower option of the 3..... However, I'd opt to take the B48 over that B69 of yours - the former would actually be quicker.....

 

Cutting the B69 back to 19th/20th doesn't mean you have to extend it to Greenpoint.....

 

 

....Another thing: It's easy to get to Downtown Brooklyn from most of Northern Brooklyn, but it is hard to get from Barclays Center to Northern Brooklyn (similar demographics and since north-south travel in that area of the borough is impossible by the subway unless you're near the , it takes multiple transfers or a walk from nearby buses. 

 

I don't know exactly if a new bus route should be created from Northern Brooklyn, an extension of a route, or reroute of one route from northern Brooklyn is necessary.

 

Here's what I have in planned (with regards to the three scenarios above)

 

Creating a new route:

 

It's on the link above, and it is called the B66. It runs between Meeker Avenue/Varick Street in Greenpoint and Union Street/3 Avenue in Boerum Hill. The route is preliminary, but I had several disputes:

 

1) Williamsburg to Greenpoint - Would the B66 follow the route mapped between Nassau Avenue and WBP, or via the B62?

 

A second alternative would be to use Marcy/Rodney Street, to Grand Street, then up Graham Street, backdoor its way to Nassau like that, then use Nassau Avenue.

 

A third alternative would be to extend the route to Sunnyside via my proposed B33 path north of Nassau Avenue (which also replaces the B33, and would basically leave the B43 alone). 

 

2) Fort Greene/Clinton Hill - Would the B66 follow Park Avenue between the BQE and Ashland Place or Myrtle Avenue (between the same distance)? Park Avenue is a better flowing area, but Myrtle Avenue is more commercial. 

 

3) Past Barclays Center - I was thinking that if the B66 perhaps also serve Downtown Brooklyn, it could replace the B62 (under my proposal) to Red Hook. The B62 would still terminate in Downtown Brooklyn.

 

Using this route would reverse many of my proposals in the original post, but as it is I wouldn't recommend it.

 

 

Extension of a route:

 

It would either be:

 

1) Extension of the B57 from Downtown Brooklyn to Atlantic-Barclays (although terminal space might be an issue)

 

2) Extension of the B32 from Williamsburg via BQE Service Road, Vanderbilt Avenue, Atlantic Ave/Dean St to 3 Avenue. Service terminates on 3 Avenue & Atlantic Avenue. Service originates on Dean Street & 3 Avenue. Under this proposal, the B69 reroute would be reverted, and the B32 headways would be enhanced. The issue with this route extension though is that it serves the far west of Northern Brooklyn. I would prefer having a route near Union Avenue (without paralleling the ). 

 

Diversion/Rerouting:

 

Either the B57 or the B62 operates as follows from Downtown Brooklyn:

 

NB/EB: Originate on Smith & Livingston Streets, then: left on Fulton Mall, left on Adams Street, left on Atlantic Avenue, left on Fort Greene Place, left on Hanson Place, Right on Ashland Place, right on Park Avenue

 

SB/WB: From Park Avenue & Ashland Place: Take Ashland Place, right on Fulton, right on Fort Greene Place, right on Atlantic Avenue, right on Smith Street, terminate with B61/65.

======================================================================================

 

I feel like all the options would have some sort of inconvenience, but perhaps the most feasible without having to redistribute headways and buses is the B57 extension. 

The similar demographics of the butt end of Fort Greene & parts of North Brooklyn isn't relevant to connecting people to a major area like Times Plaza....

 

With that said.... I personally don't see connecting north Brooklyn to Barclays directly by bus as pressing enough an issue that a route should either be diverted, extended, or created to remedy it..... Apparently, neither do north Brooklynites.... For all the revitalization that's going on in the NW pocket of Williamsburg, you don't really hear much about a direct connection to the heart of Downtown, let alone getting to that area around Barclays..... To sum it up, I think the demand for a direct bus to Barclays & the immediate area, is quite low.....

 

If you were in limbo (judging by your list of "disputes" there), you probably shouldn't have drew that up B66 & offered it for display there..... Looking at it as is (as of 8/6/17), I'd suggest going back to the drawing board - as is, it's a mess.... For starters, forget about putting buses on Hanson Pl. & that part of Ashland immediately behind the new 300 Ashland complex.... I seriously doubt that a bus can safely make that turn where Hanson & Ashland meet anyway... I'm surprised that they haven't pedestrianized Ashland south of Lafayette, and Hanson pl. west of St. Felix yet (or at the very least, turn those sections into 1-way streets).... But they sure did block off that former right hand turn from off Flatbush onto Hanson pl.....

 

Worse than that, you have a routing that's literally impossible to have happen.... While Google maps doesn't offer directional arrows users can put on their maps, either way, your B66 as shown (as of the time of this post) can't happen... I'll explain....

 

* if that's supposed to be a SB routing: The DOT over the years (I'd say that fulton st revitalization bit over there took place around the late 2000's-early 2010's) made measures to eliminate the possibility of vehicles turning immediately off Fulton to head south on Ft. Greene pl.... What they did was extend the sidewalk at that intersection (where Fulton meets Lafayette on that side of the street).... On your map, you have buses going Fulton > Lafayette > Ft. Greene pl - Which is illegal, as Lafayette is one-way EB...

 

* if that's supposed to be a NB routing: Yes, Ft. Greene pl. is one-way NB north of Fulton.... It's bi-directional b/w Atlantic & Hanson, but such a routing would be illegal, as 1) Ft. Greene pl. is one-way SB between Fulton & Hanson, and 2) left turns from Lafayette onto Fulton are banned....

 

 

With all that's going on around TImes Plaza, the best way for a bus route to be routed for getting to Barclays from the north, is to have a bus shoot across Atlantic from somewhere east of the park (Ft Greene park).... Descending down from anywhere west of the park is simply making matters more difficult then they have to be...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Understand that the distance b/w the avenue blocks are quite long... Add to the fact that there's a steep incline b/w 6th & 5th.... You're not going to get those on the 7th av side of Park Slope to take B63's & those on the 5th av side to take B67's..... This explains why you have those on the 7th av side taking B61's directly Downtown, or B67's/B69's to the Brighton (or the select few now that take B67's directly downtown).... Also understand that an average trip on the B61 has buses moving/not stuck in more traffic over B63's (which is another reason Park Slopers on the 7th av end are more apt to taking B61's).... If B67 service wasn't bastardized to the point that it ended up being, along w/ Flatbush av traffic being as nightmarish as it is now w/ Barclay's, you would simply have MUCH more B67 usage b/w Downtown & Park Slope than you do now.....

 

I can understand wanting to connect that pocket of Brooklyn w/ routes from the south, but I would not do it with an extension of the B68.... Outside of any unnecessary prolonging of that route, that side of Prospect Park (PPW) is already served by the B67 & the B69 & anyone coming from nabe's south of Kensington would be already on the anyway...

 

I would look to improve getting to that pocket of Brooklyn (Park Slope, Red Hook, etc) from points south by having a bus route running along the eastern end of the park - and that's why I thought up an idea that entailed a B71 diversion that would have buses running to Prospect Park subway (instead of its old terminal up on Sterling/Rogers, which benefited much of no one).... Connectivity into Park Slope, etc. is FAR worse from the eastern side of Prospect Park than it is from the western side.... The whole thing is akin to the former situation of folks trying to get to (Brooklyn's) Gateway Mall before the B83 extension...

 

As far as serving 9th st (if the end goal is to cutback the B61 on that end to IKEA), I'd much rather bring back the B77 & have it run b/w IKEA & 20th/PPW (instead of stopping dead at 5th/10th) to be a 9th st. crosstown, over extending the B68 along 9th for the same purpose.... One thing that the B61 remedied was the poor service levels 9th st had when the B75 ran along it b/w PPW & Court.... This is another reason you have more Park Slopers pouncing on B61's - as there's much more service provided on it (not to mention it doesn't have to deal w/ Smith/Court)... Then you can have your B61 running b/w IKEA & Williamsburg....

 

The B103 for Park Slopers, etc. isn't much more than a B37 with a crapton of service that serves the back end of the area & that is exactly how it is used.... As popular as the route is for Canarsie folks, you're not going to sell that route wholesale to Park Slopers, etc. with the B61, 63, 67, & 69 around... As far as they're concerned, it's a route that gets other Brooklynites Downtown that happens to pass through their area.... And not for one second did I ever buy into the fake outrage of some Park Slopers that had issue with the B103 not making stops along 7th & 5th (remember that...).... They didn't want the extra BPH running through the heart of their neighborhood & that's all there was to it.....

 

There was always this weird relationship (or w/e you wanna call it) when the B69 ran along 8th/PPW; it was like the adopted kid that's a part of your family, but he/she's not "blood" (like the B67 is) - if you catch my drift.... Of all the times my father would take me over the weekend (from birth, up until I was like 14 or 15), we NEVER used the B69 for getting to/from the main library (Grand army plz)... We would always bike it out instead..... The whole thing, I sort of compare to the relationship b/w the B8 & the B35 - except the B8 actually gets used on "that side" of the cemetery.... It's just one of those things man....

Well, I would likely have B67's run as close to it's former headways as possible. What I would do with the B67 is run it from DUMBO to Kensington (probably up to Church, and not Up to Cortelyou Road. It would run every 15 minutes daytime periods, every day. During evenings, service would operate every 20 minutes before 11 PM, and every 30 after 11 PM (unless it's Sunday, which it would be every 30 minutes after 9 PM). 

 

Regarding the B71, I have seen the proposed (revitalization) route east of Grand Army Plaza, it I feel that It may be somewhat more useful than the original route, so IDK about sending buses to Prospect Park (although perhaps something should indeed serve it). I was thinking that if the B77 is brought back, perhaps the route could go up 7 Avenue (or 8 Ave/Prospect Park West) to Grand Army Plaza, then go down via Flatbush Avenue to Prospect Park. It's a bit roundabout, but if the route is revived, I'd rather do that. I don't see much passenger activity occurring after 5th Avenue if the B67 gets enhanced headways, and the B77 goes to 19/20 Streets. If the B77 however, goes to Grand Army Plaza and Prospect Park, I see people possibly taking the bus crosstown to go to Methodist Hospital, and riders from 9 Street riding only to the subway taking the bus as well. You can boot the B69 from 7th Avenue, and then you would have people taking that on top of B67 buses. It can also serve the 7 Avenue as well (which reduces the amount of B67 buses that you need during the day), hence such headways.

 

The B77 had pretty frequent service throughout the day, but I wouldn't run the service so frequent.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090305205611/http://mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/bkln/b077cur.pdf

 

I would run the B77 probably about every 15 minutes all day as well, to alternate with the B67, every 20 minutes after 8 PM, every 30 minutes after 10 PM, and every hour at night. The bonus with this is, that part of 7 Avenue gets overnight service back (between 9 Street and Flatbush Avenue).

 

The rest of your comments, I'll reply to later.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Understand that the distance b/w the avenue blocks are quite long... Add to the fact that there's a steep incline b/w 6th & 5th.... You're not going to get those on the 7th av side of Park Slope to take B63's & those on the 5th av side to take B67's..... This explains why you have those on the 7th av side taking B61's directly Downtown, or B67's/B69's to the Brighton (or the select few now that take B67's directly downtown).... Also understand that an average trip on the B61 has buses moving/not stuck in more traffic over B63's (which is another reason Park Slopers on the 7th av end are more apt to taking B61's).... If B67 service wasn't bastardized to the point that it ended up being, along w/ Flatbush av traffic being as nightmarish as it is now w/ Barclay's, you would simply have MUCH more B67 usage b/w Downtown & Park Slope than you do now.....

 

I can understand wanting to connect that pocket of Brooklyn w/ routes from the south, but I would not do it with an extension of the B68.... Outside of any unnecessary prolonging of that route, that side of Prospect Park (PPW) is already served by the B67 & the B69 & anyone coming from nabe's south of Kensington would be already on the anyway...

 

I would look to improve getting to that pocket of Brooklyn (Park Slope, Red Hook, etc) from points south by having a bus route running along the eastern end of the park - and that's why I thought up an idea that entailed a B71 diversion that would have buses running to Prospect Park subway (instead of its old terminal up on Sterling/Rogers, which benefited much of no one).... Connectivity into Park Slope, etc. is FAR worse from the eastern side of Prospect Park than it is from the western side.... The whole thing is akin to the former situation of folks trying to get to (Brooklyn's) Gateway Mall before the B83 extension...

 

As far as serving 9th st (if the end goal is to cutback the B61 on that end to IKEA), I'd much rather bring back the B77 & have it run b/w IKEA & 20th/PPW (instead of stopping dead at 5th/10th) to be a 9th st. crosstown, over extending the B68 along 9th for the same purpose.... One thing that the B61 remedied was the poor service levels 9th st had when the B75 ran along it b/w PPW & Court.... This is another reason you have more Park Slopers pouncing on B61's - as there's much more service provided on it (not to mention it doesn't have to deal w/ Smith/Court)... Then you can have your B61 running b/w IKEA & Williamsburg....

 

The B103 for Park Slopers, etc. isn't much more than a B37 with a crapton of service that serves the back end of the area & that is exactly how it is used.... As popular as the route is for Canarsie folks, you're not going to sell that route wholesale to Park Slopers, etc. with the B61, 63, 67, & 69 around... As far as they're concerned, it's a route that gets other Brooklynites Downtown that happens to pass through their area.... And not for one second did I ever buy into the fake outrage of some Park Slopers that had issue with the B103 not making stops along 7th & 5th (remember that...).... They didn't want the extra BPH running through the heart of their neighborhood & that's all there was to it.....

 

There was always this weird relationship (or w/e you wanna call it) when the B69 ran along 8th/PPW; it was like the adopted kid that's a part of your family, but he/she's not "blood" (like the B67 is) - if you catch my drift.... Of all the times my father would take me over the weekend (from birth, up until I was like 14 or 15), we NEVER used the B69 for getting to/from the main library (Grand army plz)... We would always bike it out instead..... The whole thing, I sort of compare to the relationship b/w the B8 & the B35 - except the B8 actually gets used on "that side" of the cemetery.... It's just one of those things man....

 

 

Agreed...

 

They used the shifting of the B69 onto 7th quite frankly, to justify being frugal.... Quite sure they noticed since there were as many ppl. only taking B67's to the Brighton line (7th av) instead of riding it directly into Downtown, well let's shift the low frequency B69 onto commercial 7th av & shave some service off the B67..... The end result was less overall service along 7th av now (with the combined B67/B69), compared to when the B67 only ran along 7th....

 

Fiscally, the advantages of interlining is obvious - which is the real reason they ran B69's down to Kensington..... Not for service to new areas or anything of the sort.... Quite frankly, Park Slopers & the rest of those that are represented by CB6 wasn't fooled one bit.... Riders were looking at it from the vantage point of 7th av service only - Go ahead & ask any Park Sloper.

 

Even though I would like for the B71 to be resurrected & ran down to Prospect Park subway, I would have much preferred combining the Vanderbilt portion of the B69 w/ the B71 west of Grand Army, over having shifted the B69 onto 7th.....That portion of the B71 was actually seeing ridership increases before it got axed.... What I'm ultimately getting at (which we're pretty much in agreement with) is that the B69 should've been its own route & not coupled with the B67.....

 

The B69 north of Grand Army is seldom talked about on here..... I do like how Vanderbilt has thrived w/ all the small businesses (south of Atlantic) over the years & what not - but at the same time, that's the portion of Vanderbilt that's gotten just as congested as Myrtle (bike traffic included).... The route (along Vanderbilt) south of Myrtle has seen more utilization per stop as well.... That explains your delays right there - before it ever hits Park Slope....

 

All in all, I'd like to see the B67 revert to its former service levels & standing along 7th av (meaning, it being the only route running along 7th av) & for the B69 to be sent elsewhere south of Grand Army ...

When I initially made the corresponding map, I was thinking about perhaps routing the B32 down via Vanderbilt Avenue, and then turn unto Union. I would still prefer to see the B71 revived, and not just have a merged route, serving more destinations. However, I feel that until it is revived, and/or if it's not going to be revived, the B69 could serve Union Street (so yes, I agree with the idea). Regardless of whether that is done, I would indeed try to eliminate the relationship it has with the B67. 

 

1a) I'm one of those people.... I say that the B16 should run across Ft. Hamilton to 39th st, then 39th to 12th av, to regular route.....

Give 13th/14th ave's a coverage route & call it a day.... More could have been made of the B23 IMO.....

 

1b) Short turning B61's at 5th/10th right at the beginning of, and throughout the PM rush might not be a bad idea (4th won't be enough IMO).... Cutting the B69 back to the current B61 terminal full time (over the B67) I can agree with - as long as the B67 wouldn't maintain current service levels south of PPW.....

 

2) Yes, as alluded to in my earlier post, the two routes shouldn't be interlined.... I'll check out your updated proposal after I finish replying to this one....

 

3) I'm not too sure if Sunnyside wants access to more of Brooklyn (meaning, past, say.... Williamsburg).... If Sunnyside would a] welcome & b] benefit from a B48 extension, then I have no qualms.... From the vantage point of a Brooklynite though, using a route like the B24 to get to the is the pits.... Even an extended B48 would be an improvement & that's saying quite a bit - as the B48 service-wise aint too great in its own right..... But generally speaking, that neighborhood is being stymied by more than just its poor surface transit options....

 

side note: I'm not exactly complaining with this (as I benefit greatly from it), but I find that there are too few Brooklynites (that don't live in Greenpoint or Wms'burg) that aren't taking advantage of the Manhattan bypass a.k.a. the - and instead, are putting up with riding through midtown & lower Manhattan & the crowding that any train serving Manhattan will always end up accumulating/absorbing..... I can't remember the last time I took the past QBP & I'm not even trying to be funny....

 

While ideal/fictional, a "Triboro Rx" needs to happen like, yesterday..... Latent demand clearly exists.

 

 

4) Aside from your justification for moving the B16 off Caton...

 

I don't have a problem with the B16 serving the , I have a problem with the ramifications of the B16 serving the ..... I never mentioned this in earlier posts (since the focal point was about Caton), but I also think that B16 should serve that pocket west of McDonald along 12th av (I can never remember the name of that immediate area... Many call it Kensington, but it's not Kensington)....

 

If the B16 serves Church av , it avoids that immediate area in question completely..... If the B16 serves Ft. Hamilton Pkwy , it makes for an inconvenient xfer to the actual station (ever boarded or gotten off at that station?) on top of the fact that its more proximate to Parkside than Caton..... You're not wrong that weekend usage is low along Caton, but do you really believe usage would be any higher along Parkside????

 

As to your B69 modification... again, I'll have a look at it.

 

1a) So, if the B23 were to serve 13/14 Avenues, where would it terminate on the southern/western end? Terminating in Borough Park would lead to low ridership. Another problem is that Cortelyou west of Ocean Parkway appears to be very "silent". From C I Avenue to Flatbush, it is narrow, susceptible to traffic caused by deliveries, etc. I would look to move the eastern terminal somewhere else other than Flatbush Avenue. 

 

4) I have seen that station layout and the entrances/exits. If the B16 should serve that portion, then there isn't much that can be done without having an awkward transfer to the . I haven't used the station, but I do know the layout, and how hidden it can be if you're not a local (similar situation with North Conduit Avenue on the northern end). 

 

Everything south of Flushing av I can agree with.... As was discussed in earlier posts, you don't really need the B69 & the B67 running to Kensington..... Even before the 2010 cuts or whatever, I never cared for the B69 ending at Sands/Jay - as no one at & south of Clinton Hill had any use for service west of Vanderbilt/Park...... FWIW, that terminal exists for not much more than a convenient turnaround... Always found it funny that much of no one takes the B67 north of Tillary, but you'll get a few college students here & there throughout the day waiting for SB buses; generallly taking it no further than as short as Fulton... B69 is even worse; after leaving the terminal, outside of JHS/MHS students sporadically using it along Flushing, forget it....

 

Everything north of Flushing av though, nah..... I don't like the idea of buses using Williamsburg st East/West (as apparently, somehow it became an unofficial parking lot for those Jewish charter buses & cheese buses) - that, and traffic tends to get gridlocked believe it or not during certain times.... Nor do I see a need for it running up to Greenpoint.... Simply put, the way you have it routed, I don't see much of anyone using it (in Williamsburg, or Greenpoint really).... I'd just have the B69 parallel the (real) B62 from Vanderbilt/Park to Division, then run over to WBP via Bedford -> Broadway (and for the return trip, buses would go Broadway -> Wythe).....

 

What I find funny about that B69 extension is that, if I'm somebody needing Manhattan av & I'm waiting at Classon/Wallabout, no question the (real) B62 would be the slower option of the 3..... However, I'd opt to take the B48 over that B69 of yours - the former would actually be quicker.....

 

Cutting the B69 back to 19th/20th doesn't mean you have to extend it to Greenpoint.....

 

 

The similar demographics of the butt end of Fort Greene & parts of North Brooklyn isn't relevant to connecting people to a major area like Times Plaza....

 

With that said.... I personally don't see connecting north Brooklyn to Barclays directly by bus as pressing enough an issue that a route should either be diverted, extended, or created to remedy it..... Apparently, neither do north Brooklynites.... For all the revitalization that's going on in the NW pocket of Williamsburg, you don't really hear much about a direct connection to the heart of Downtown, let alone getting to that area around Barclays..... To sum it up, I think the demand for a direct bus to Barclays & the immediate area, is quite low.....

 

If you were in limbo (judging by your list of "disputes" there), you probably shouldn't have drew that up B66 & offered it for display there..... Looking at it as is (as of 8/6/17), I'd suggest going back to the drawing board - as is, it's a mess.... For starters, forget about putting buses on Hanson Pl. & that part of Ashland immediately behind the new 300 Ashland complex.... I seriously doubt that a bus can safely make that turn where Hanson & Ashland meet anyway... I'm surprised that they haven't pedestrianized Ashland south of Lafayette, and Hanson pl. west of St. Felix yet (or at the very least, turn those sections into 1-way streets).... But they sure did block off that former right hand turn from off Flatbush onto Hanson pl.....

 

Worse than that, you have a routing that's literally impossible to have happen.... While Google maps doesn't offer directional arrows users can put on their maps, either way, your B66 as shown (as of the time of this post) can't happen... I'll explain....

 

* if that's supposed to be a SB routing: The DOT over the years (I'd say that fulton st revitalization bit over there took place around the late 2000's-early 2010's) made measures to eliminate the possibility of vehicles turning immediately off Fulton to head south on Ft. Greene pl.... What they did was extend the sidewalk at that intersection (where Fulton meets Lafayette on that side of the street).... On your map, you have buses going Fulton > Lafayette > Ft. Greene pl - Which is illegal, as Lafayette is one-way EB...

 

* if that's supposed to be a NB routing: Yes, Ft. Greene pl. is one-way NB north of Fulton.... It's bi-directional b/w Atlantic & Hanson, but such a routing would be illegal, as 1) Ft. Greene pl. is one-way SB between Fulton & Hanson, and 2) left turns from Lafayette onto Fulton are banned....

 

 

With all that's going on around TImes Plaza, the best way for a bus route to be routed for getting to Barclays from the north, is to have a bus shoot across Atlantic from somewhere east of the park (Ft Greene park).... Descending down from anywhere west of the park is simply making matters more difficult then they have to be...

The B69 to Greenpoint was in order to preserve some service on Lorimer Street lost. My other options were to extend it to the B48 terminal in Greenpoint, or to terminate it at Metropolitan/Union. I didn't want to run it with the B62 (which was what I was thinking of originally) in order to not take away more ridership from the B62 than it should. The B61 would also go to WBP instead of terminating at Division Avenue (like the B67 current does).  Also, I was thinking that for Midtown riders, it would make sense taking the B69 instead of the B62, B48, or B57 to the respective subway station, if that option was given. The connections for buses from WBP would be made elsewhere along the route. It comes close to serving WBP, but is closer to the subway station. It can garner some usage from Williamsburg and Greenpoint, but I plan for people from South Williamsburg and Northern Clinton Hill to use it more. I do think a Williamsburg Terminal can work though. 

 

As far as the B66 route, I did make a map several days ago which I forgot to place on here, which revamps the B66 route. Like I said before, under the previous routing, I would have not recommended it. I don't want to just serve Barclays, but also the area around it. The current pedestrianization though makes it hard to do so. 

 

BTW, I'm pretty sure a bus shouldn't have a problem making the turn on Ashland Place onto Hanson Street (or vice versa). The problem is, that's only feasible when there isn't a truck or anything parked on one of the sides, and if there isn't another bus/truck waiting for the bus to make the turn, so I do see that issue. Anyways, I separated the B66 routing from the rest of the other routes, and will explain the routing:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&authuser=0&mid=1ClrH5jdxHExWYSkQjyvsA1fjq98

 

I have modified the B66 route greatly from the original routing. I have the B66 originating in Red Hook at IKEA (although that could be changed to continue to Van Brunt Street). This kicks out the B57 route, and it also allows for the B62 to remain running between Downtown Brooklyn and Queens Plaza at all times. Service turns on Livingston Street (although it can be changed to Fulton instead) to head to Barclays Center. It gives the Red Hook and Carroll Gardens a direct link to Barclays (which would have otherwise resulted in a B61 trip to the B63). At the very least, it eliminates the transferring. 

 

I also want to serve some part of the projects over there, which is why I had it going down Ashland. What I decided to do was to use Carlton/Adelphi instead so it comes close to serving the Projects. I would have routed the SB route via Cumberland, but it would recreate the turning problems in that area (getting from Greene Avenue to Atlantic). It once takes Williamsburg Street East/West because you have way too many local buses going from there to the Greater Downtown Brooklyn Area. It is also to make it a quick link between Northern Brooklyn and south of Park. It serves some areas of Northeast Williamsburg to connect to Union/Metropolitan. 

 

Past Nassau Avenue, it continues north to Manhattan Avenue, then on Greenpoint Avenue towards Sunnyside. For some Sunnyside riders (and for many Brooklyn Riders), the route would hit some areas the current B62 or B43 don't hit in Williamsburg but the B24 does, or some spots the B62 and/or B43 hit, but the B24 doesn't. It would also offer a faster ride towards the Intermediate area around WBP (compared to the current B24). If there was another option instead of Manhattan Avenue, I would have rerouted it there instead of Manhattan Avenue. This routing would also effectively cancel the B69 to Greenpoint (would terminate in Williamsburg via the route you described above), and the B33 proposal from either (essentially everything would remain as B43 service). The same rationale for not routing the B69 into WBP originally would also apply to this route.

Edited August 8, 2017 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[B35 via Church]

Well, I would likely have B67's run as close to it's former headways as possible. What I would do with the B67 is run it from DUMBO to Kensington (probably up to Church, and not Up to Cortelyou Road. It would run every 15 minutes daytime periods, every day. During evenings, service would operate every 20 minutes before 11 PM, and every 30 after 11 PM (unless it's Sunday, which it would be every 30 minutes after 9 PM). 

 

Regarding the B71, I have seen the proposed (revitalization) route east of Grand Army Plaza, it I feel that It may be somewhat more useful than the original route, so IDK about sending buses to Prospect Park (although perhaps something should indeed serve it). I was thinking that if the B77 is brought back, perhaps the route could go up 7 Avenue (or 8 Ave/Prospect Park West) to Grand Army Plaza, then go down via Flatbush Avenue to Prospect Park. It's a bit roundabout, but if the route is revived, I'd rather do that. I don't see much passenger activity occurring after 5th Avenue if the B67 gets enhanced headways, and the B77 goes to 19/20 Streets. If the B77 however, goes to Grand Army Plaza and Prospect Park, I see people possibly taking the bus crosstown to go to Methodist Hospital, and riders from 9 Street riding only to the subway taking the bus as well. You can boot the B69 from 7th Avenue, and then you would have people taking that on top of B67 buses. It can also serve the 7 Avenue as well (which reduces the amount of B67 buses that you need during the day), hence such headways.

 

The B77 had pretty frequent service throughout the day, but I wouldn't run the service so frequent.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090305205611/http://mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/bkln/b077cur.pdf

 

I would run the B77 probably about every 15 minutes all day as well, to alternate with the B67, every 20 minutes after 8 PM, every 30 minutes after 10 PM, and every hour at night. The bonus with this is, that part of 7 Avenue gets overnight service back (between 9 Street and Flatbush Avenue).

I don't see what you're saying about "somewhat" more useful; B71's carried air east of the main library.... There is no way in hell that a bus that would, at bare minimum, take some riders from off the B41 - in particular, those that are trying to get from one end of the park to the other (some of which, are coming off the believe it or not)..... Whatever amount of usage that would be accomplished with that alone, significantly trumps the B71 east of the library.... That's just secondary to tertiary usage; as I sincerely believe that those that are looking to get to Park Slope from areas east of the park (the primary reason for that B71 proposal) will take advantage of a route that'd take on such a routing.....

 

Of course turning B77's up 7th from the west would garner more riders than the B71 that ran via Union.... If it's not about serving all of 9th st (as a compromise to your (and others' in the past) proposal of running B68's into Park Slope, etc.) with a reverted B77 & a cutback of the B61 to IKEA, I wouldn't bring it (the B77) back - as today's B61 as is, solved a prior issue with 9th st service.... That is, the whole piece-mealing bit with the B75 & the B77....

 

Basically, my point in bringing up the talking point of a B77 that'd run to 19th/20th to handle 9th st service, quite frankly, is that it wouldn't involve creating a super-route out of a route whose efficiency IMO has made a stark increase in the past 20 years or so.... One thing I don't miss about taking the B68 to school sometimes (Grady) back in the day, was the maneuvering around &/or being at the mercy of all the dam 18-wheelers & other mini trucks that were notorious for double parking along CI av..... You were subjected to that crap b/w Midwood & Gravesend (or whatever you want to call Av Z/CI av)..... Not for nothing, but CI av isn't bogged down with traffic like it used to be either... It's more free-flowing these days.....

 

See, I never saw (and still don't see) a proposed B68 extension to Methodist back in the day as being a good idea... To me it's (along w/ your running of it all the way to IKEA) akin to the ole Q7 Green Acres, Bx7/10 Yonkers, B68/74 combo (speaking of the B68... Lol), B14 Grand army Plaza, the list goes on.... I don't foresee much of anyone south of Kensington taking buses into Park Slope, and those that are taking B68's to 15th st I can't fathom being mostly those that are taking the the 1-to-3 stops afterwards to as far west as Smith-9th..... You don't see much turnover b/w the B61 & the B68, so it leads me to believe that the masses are taking the subway to at least Downtown Brooklyn..... I can understand wanting to connect different parts of Brooklyn, but demand you would think has  to being some sort of a factor....

 

There's more I wanted to say, but done forgot since I came back from outside.... The post is long enough anyway, so this is gonna have to do for now.... The other reply of yours I'll get to some time this weekend, so take your time in responding....

[BrooklynBus]

I don't know if I agree. The problem with this is Shore Road overall sees poor headways and if anything I would have the B1 extended south down Shore Road. The B16 just doesn't cut it down there.

Extending the B1 to Shore Road and then down Shore Road to replace the B16 also was one of my proposals from 1978. If that were done, then you could justify every B1 being extended. But you still would need some B16s during school hours to Ft Hamilton HS.

 

But a better proposal would get to extend the B9 down Shore Road since that would provide residents access to to 59 St express stop where as the B1 provides access to the local 86 Street stop.

[darrianQ60]

city point and the barclay center is starting to develop more so i thought about the b51 again and i know people gonna say no but i was thinking of the b51 running from barclay center to soho in manhattan last stop would be broadway and houston street.

B51 northbound

.starting point flatbush ave and alantic

.run on flatbush ave to manhattan bridge

.when it get off bridge its will go on chrystie st

.make a left on houston street and left on broadway and terminate at broadway and houston.

B51 southbound

. Drive on broadway make a left on spring st

.make a left on Lafayette st

.right on houston

.right on chrystie st

.right on hester st

.left on bowery st

. Make left on manhattan bridge and take flatbush straight down to barclay center

[darrianQ60]

I also had two idea one is to change the b32 route i would have the b32 run from willamburg to woodside queens

B32 northbound

.drive on broadway

.right on kent ave eventually kent turns in franklin

.right on greenpoint ave

.take greenpoint ave (which eventually turns into roosevelt) to 62nd st make left on 62nd st terminate at 62nd st and roosevelt ave and

B32 southbond back to brooklyn

.left on 39 ave

.left on 61 st

.right on roosevelt (which eventually turns into greenpoint ave)

.make a left on franklin

.left on n14 st

.right on wythe ave

Left on broadyway to willamburg bridge plaza

2nd idea b24 from flushing ave and broadway to court sqaure queens

B24 northbound

.Right on flushing ave

.left on buswick ave (whick eventually turns into woodpoint ave

.left on frost ave

.right on graham ave

.right on meeker ave

.left on mc guniess blvd

.after crossing pulskai bridge drive on 11 st

.right on 44 drive terminate at 44 drive and 21 st

B24 southbound

.right on 21 st

.right on 45 ave

.left on 11 st to pulaski bridge

.drive on mc guniess blvd which turns in humbodlt

.right on summer pl

Terminate at broadway and flushing

[Via Garibaldi 8]

city point and the barclay center is starting to develop more so i thought about the b51 again and i know people gonna say no but i was thinking of the b51 running from barclay center to soho in manhattan last stop would be broadway and houston street.

B51 northbound

.starting point flatbush ave and alantic

.run on flatbush ave to manhattan bridge

.when it get off bridge its will go on chrystie st

.make a left on houston street and left on broadway and terminate at broadway and houston.

B51 southbound

. Drive on broadway make a left on spring st

.make a left on Lafayette st

.right on houston

.right on chrystie st

.right on hester st

.left on bowery st

. Make left on manhattan bridge and take flatbush straight down to barclay center

Uh yeah... No. Why would the bus terminate in SoHo? There's already the M55 down there.

[darrianQ60]

Yea but thats in manhattan this bus is coming from brooklyn

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yea but thats in manhattan this bus is coming from brooklyn

So where is the ridership coming from and what do the frequencies look like?

[Kingjunior34]

So where is the ridership coming from and what do the frequencies look like?

I agree there's needs to many more buses that connect manhattan and Brooklyn

 

Queen and Bronx both have plenty of buses that run to manhattan so why can't Brooklyn have buses that run to manhattan

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I agree there's needs to many more buses that connect manhattan and Brooklyn

 

Queen and Bronx both have plenty of buses that run to manhattan so why can't Brooklyn have buses that run to manhattan

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Brooklyn is better connected via subway and the ferry than portions of Queens and the Bronx. Historically speaking, the Bronx has had a stronger connection to Manhattan by way of its location.

[darrianQ60]

Every 20 mins and see how it turns out the ridership would come from flatbush ave from alantic terminal and since there no bus that runs on flatbush pass livingston this would be the first sometimes you have to experiment and try something theres no bus that goes pass livingston they all turn off its worth a try and houston st in manhattan would gain a lil ridership i think this would do better than the b39 route for sure i get that manhattan bridge has traffic but in my opinion the willamburg bridge is far far worst in terms of traffic and the current b24 route make no sesne it goes from brooklyn to queens back to brooklyn why not just terminate in queens and start at broadway and flushing it would be good since there no bus that runs on bushwick from flushing since the old b13 and there is no bus that runs on mc Guinness blvd.

[Q43LTD]

As much I as I would like the B51 to return, I don't see it happening

[darrianQ60]

I agree with kingjunior34 there should be more route from brooklyn to manhattan we can have buses and train just like the other boroughs. We dont have to be traditional and say brooklyn always had a lot of train so it should just stay how it is forever theres nothing wrong with a change

Q43ltd why dont you see it happening