Beware of Leaves

[Harry]

 

Every year around this time, a silent menace threatens the region’s transit system. Falling leaves. Already this season, slippery rail conditions caused by leaves have delayed Metro-North and Long Island Rail Road trains more than 700 times. On the subway, the B and Q trains have been held up regularly as they go aboveground through Brooklyn’s leafier precincts. How can fluttering foliage bring down a mighty rail network? The culprit is pectin, the same stuff that causes jelly to jell. It’s in leaves. When trains run over wet leaves, “it actually creates a slurry,” said John Kesich, a vice president at Metro-North. Because trains on slippery rails are harder to slow down, the railroads dial down speed limits and order drivers to start braking earlier. Hence the delays, which average 10 minutes. Metro-North power washes most of its track each night. But the leaves return.

Read more: Source

[peacemak3r]

I can't even understand how this is really news...this applies to anything mobile really.

[Turbo19]

Would it be wrong of me to assume they're just using this as justification for delays?

[Jsunflyguy]

I rode the Brighton line during HS, some T/Os are cautious during leaf season and lose significant time. Some T/Os could care less and go for it...

[realizm]

Occasionally we end up with big problems along the Sea Beach for very similar reasons. Debris and leaves on the tracks fron trees and shrubs. It's even led to complaints by Borough pak and bay Ridge residents in the history books. (This was recent, all started in 2010) Some of the reroute GO's were for the purpose of the getting the landscape contractors under MTA supervision to mitigate the hazard.

 

Seems they are doing OK here. No slow zones I picked up on the Sea Beach. Used to be bad, but I see an improvement.

 

The Brighton Line falls on a different terrain according to my knowledge, which probably makes it challenging for landscaping crews. if i was in the CCC I would see to it that somehow off peak time can be utilized to tale care of the deteriorating shrubery and the falling leaves.

[bobtehpanda]

Would it be wrong of me to assume they're just using this as justification for delays?

 

I mean, it is a very serious condition, and the MTA is known to be extremely worried about liabilities and all that, so I could see why they would slow down trains.

[Fresh Pond]

Would it be wrong of me to assume they're just using this as justification for delays?

 

see below...

 

I mean, it is a very serious condition, and the MTA is known to be extremely worried about liabilities and all that, so I could see why they would slow down trains.

 

Well there's that, plus the flat spots on the wheels the leaves cause when the brakes lock up and the train starts sliding everywhere

[Vistausss]

This happens everywhere where leaves are around railroad/subway tracks. In my country we also have this problem and I can't think of any country not having that problem. Ah well, let's hope they do a good job on the subway. Btw, didn't LIRR have some special train which prepares the tracks for this stuff so that the side effects are less worse? I remember that from one of (MTA)'s LIRR videos on YouTube.

[Trainmaster5]

IIRC the LIRR ran so-called Sandite cars while up at Dyre we ran a rail adhesion car. I really don't know the workings of the LIRR's cars but the rail adhesion car was an attempt to mitigate the effects of the leaves on train operation. My argument with the use of the rail adhesion car every night was that the car would lay down a gel-like type of substance on the running rails. On a cool dry night everything was fine the next day. On a foggy, humid night that substance on the rails would make things worse, not better. Stopping a train, or bus,car, motorcycle, or bike is hard enough on a slick rainy day.  Once you add the (slick) gel to the mix it doesn't get any better. It's been said that oil and water don't mix and that's true. Now imagine trying to stop a subway or railroad train where the running rails are coated with this gel. As long as the weather conditions are OK the LIRR and subway responses will work very well. Throw a light mist or fog into the mix and things go downhill fast. Personally, I always thought it was safer to operate in heavy rain or snow on the line up there because at least you were aware of the conditions. Operating after a light mist would sometimes mask the gel layer under the leaves. My friend got taken out of service for overrunning Gun Hill Road station and he was doing less than 10 mph when the incident happened. When I asked the TSS,  who was in the cab and took him out of service, what happened he told me that our General Supt. had issued that directive. Some of the active RTO forum members know the Supt (now retired) of whom I speak and his total disdain for all TSSs so this TSS was afraid to acknowledge that he was in the cab the whole time. I spoke to the General Supt that afternoon and told him about the use of the Rail Adhesion train and all was well again. T/O re-instated, TSS involved bought me and my C/R lunch because I covered up his part in the matter, and I got a commendation from the General. The moral of the story is for all RTO members and all railfans " do not over rely on the rail adhesion car" because Mother Nature will always win. Carry on.

[AndrewJC]

I can't even understand how this is really news...this applies to anything mobile really.

 

It's simply a warning to riders of affected lines that their trips will take a bit longer so they should give themselves slightly more travel time.

[SubwayGuy]

IIRC the LIRR ran so-called Sandite cars while up at Dyre we ran a rail adhesion car. I really don't know the workings of the LIRR's cars but the rail adhesion car was an attempt to mitigate the effects of the leaves on train operation. My argument with the use of the rail adhesion car every night was that the car would lay down a gel-like type of substance on the running rails. On a cool dry night everything was fine the next day. On a foggy, humid night that substance on the rails would make things worse, not better. Stopping a train, or bus,car, motorcycle, or bike is hard enough on a slick rainy day.  Once you add the (slick) gel to the mix it doesn't get any better. It's been said that oil and water don't mix and that's true. Now imagine trying to stop a subway or railroad train where the running rails are coated with this gel. As long as the weather conditions are OK the LIRR and subway responses will work very well. Throw a light mist or fog into the mix and things go downhill fast. Personally, I always thought it was safer to operate in heavy rain or snow on the line up there because at least you were aware of the conditions. Operating after a light mist would sometimes mask the gel layer under the leaves. My friend got taken out of service for overrunning Gun Hill Road station and he was doing less than 10 mph when the incident happened. When I asked the TSS,  who was in the cab and took him out of service, what happened he told me that our General Supt. had issued that directive. Some of the active RTO forum members know the Supt (now retired) of whom I speak and his total disdain for all TSSs so this TSS was afraid to acknowledge that he was in the cab the whole time. I spoke to the General Supt that afternoon and told him about the use of the Rail Adhesion train and all was well again. T/O re-instated, TSS involved bought me and my C/R lunch because I covered up his part in the matter, and I got a commendation from the General. The moral of the story is for all RTO members and all railfans " do not over rely on the rail adhesion car" because Mother Nature will always win. Carry on.

 

 

I rode the Brighton line during HS, some T/Os are cautious during leaf season and lose significant time. Some T/Os could care less and go for it...

 

See Trainmaster's post above. It is a very serious condition that railroads and MTA have become more aware of over the years. Wet or dry leaves can cause the train to slide, but rain (especially light rain) makes it far worse than during dry conditions.

 

NTT trains have an anti-lock braking kind of feature, which, if the train starts to slide, reduces the braking force in an attempt to prevent flats. It doesn't work 100% properly (really, nothing can in this instance), but it will attempt to stop the train automatically without locking up the wheels and sliding. As a train operator, this means you cannot trust the train to stop. 99/100 times in leaves you may come in almost normally, and just brake earlier and gradually, and be just fine. But you still have to be prepared, and leave yourself the extra stopping distance, time for you to react, and time for the you and the train to correct for a slide should one occur.

 

SMEE type trains you are on your own and must be your own anti-lock brake. It's up to you to feel the train, how it's braking, and adjust your operation.

 

Rain, especially light rain, in general is very slick on rails. Metal on metal is not the world's greatest adhesion to begin with (nothing like car tires of rubber on asphalt, for example), and light rain puts a film on the track which mixes with all the grease and oil on the tracks. Heavy rain can wash a lot of this away, but light rain won't. Then a train will go to stop normally, and...nothing. Feels like an oil slick, only you'll notice the faint smell of something burning in the air when you finally do come to a halt, and maybe hear some flat wheels when you're moving again. The chemical in the leaves works exactly the same as the grease on the track, it's just more prevalent because of the number of leaves hence the extra caution.

 

Since there's so much awareness about this these days compared to years ago, there's no reason to cowboy up and fly into stations in the fall...T/Os can just cite the leaves as the reason the train is late.

 

Would it be wrong of me to assume they're just using this as justification for delays?

 

Yes. Yes it would. There have already been numerous leaf-related station overruns this season.

[Fresh Pond]

IIRC the LIRR ran so-called Sandite cars while up at Dyre we ran a rail adhesion car. I really don't know the workings of the LIRR's cars but the rail adhesion car was an attempt to mitigate the effects of the leaves on train operation. My argument with the use of the rail adhesion car every night was that the car would lay down a gel-like type of substance on the running rails. On a cool dry night everything was fine the next day. On a foggy, humid night that substance on the rails would make things worse, not better. Stopping a train, or bus,car, motorcycle, or bike is hard enough on a slick rainy day.  Once you add the (slick) gel to the mix it doesn't get any better. It's been said that oil and water don't mix and that's true. Now imagine trying to stop a subway or railroad train where the running rails are coated with this gel. As long as the weather conditions are OK the LIRR and subway responses will work very well. Throw a light mist or fog into the mix and things go downhill fast. Personally, I always thought it was safer to operate in heavy rain or snow on the line up there because at least you were aware of the conditions. Operating after a light mist would sometimes mask the gel layer under the leaves. My friend got taken out of service for overrunning Gun Hill Road station and he was doing less than 10 mph when the incident happened. When I asked the TSS,  who was in the cab and took him out of service, what happened he told me that our General Supt. had issued that directive. Some of the active RTO forum members know the Supt (now retired) of whom I speak and his total disdain for all TSSs so this TSS was afraid to acknowledge that he was in the cab the whole time. I spoke to the General Supt that afternoon and told him about the use of the Rail Adhesion train and all was well again. T/O re-instated, TSS involved bought me and my C/R lunch because I covered up his part in the matter, and I got a commendation from the General. The moral of the story is for all RTO members and all railfans " do not over rely on the rail adhesion car" because Mother Nature will always win. Carry on.

 

I think they use both alcohol and sand for ice and rain respectively

 

See Trainmaster's post above. It is a very serious condition that railroads and MTA have become more aware of over the years. Wet or dry leaves can cause the train to slide, but rain (especially light rain) makes it far worse than during dry conditions.

 

NTT trains have an anti-lock braking kind of feature, which, if the train starts to slide, reduces the braking force in an attempt to prevent flats. It doesn't work 100% properly (really, nothing can in this instance), but it will attempt to stop the train automatically without locking up the wheels and sliding. As a train operator, this means you cannot trust the train to stop. 99/100 times in leaves you may come in almost normally, and just brake earlier and gradually, and be just fine. But you still have to be prepared, and leave yourself the extra stopping distance, time for you to react, and time for the you and the train to correct for a slide should one occur.

 

SMEE type trains you are on your own and must be your own anti-lock brake. It's up to you to feel the train, how it's braking, and adjust your operation.

 

Rain, especially light rain, in general is very slick on rails. Metal on metal is not the world's greatest adhesion to begin with (nothing like car tires of rubber on asphalt, for example), and light rain puts a film on the track which mixes with all the grease and oil on the tracks. Heavy rain can wash a lot of this away, but light rain won't. Then a train will go to stop normally, and...nothing. Feels like an oil slick, only you'll notice the faint smell of something burning in the air when you finally do come to a halt, and maybe hear some flat wheels when you're moving again. The chemical in the leaves works exactly the same as the grease on the track, it's just more prevalent because of the number of leaves hence the extra caution.

 

Since there's so much awareness about this these days compared to years ago, there's no reason to cowboy up and fly into stations in the fall...T/Os can just cite the leaves as the reason the train is late.

 

 

Yes. Yes it would. There have already been numerous leaf-related station overruns this season.

 

Isn't that just the brake shoes heating up?

[elantra06]

Would it be wrong of me to assume they're just using this as justification for delays?

If you ever become a train operator then you will understand the reason behind this article. The leaves on the rails are not a joke. I've brought my train down to 5mph far outside the station and can still feel it sliding.

[Turbo19]

I mean, it is a very serious condition, and the MTA is known to be extremely worried about liabilities and all that, so I could see why they would slow down trains.

 

see below...

 

 

Well there's that, plus the flat spots on the wheels the leaves cause when the brakes lock up and the train starts sliding everywhere

 

If you ever become a train operator then you will understand the reason behind this article. The leaves on the rails are not a joke. I've brought my train down to 5mph far outside the station and can still feel it sliding.

...Fair enough, I see this is nothing of a joke around this time.

[SubwayGuy]

I think they use both alcohol and sand for ice and rain respectively

 

 

Isn't that just the brake shoes heating up?

 

No. It's the wheels and the running rail grinding as the train slides. And any leaves/leaf chemical that happens to get caught in between.

[realizm]

Try snow conditions before the MTA implemented revisions on adverse weather response protocols. I can clearly recall how I was stuck on a set of R40 slants on the because the snow on the Sea Beach was almost 1 foot high. I saw all the complications the T/O's are mentioning: skidding against snow packed frozen rails, station overuns because the brakes does not have anti-lock like the NTTs, and cutoffs in power because the rail shoe is not providing constant current to the train from the third rail.

 

This was during the blizzard of 2006. I was stuck between 8th Ave and 59th Street. Locomotive was called but the T/O pulled through and made it to the next stop without locomotive assist.

[rosskin92]

We dont have an issue with leaves here in the midwest... But rather wind.

 

On the UP Metra lines, UP is notorious for making calls based on forecasts from HQ in Omaha to stop traffic. BNSF nor the wholely metra owned linea dont do this, they use data from the trains I think. Or Chicago.

 

So yeah.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk

[R10 2952]

On a side note: If a train develops flat wheel(s), how long does it go before the problem is fixed?

[StevenFrancis]

This may sound ridiculous, but couldn't someone invent some type of leaf catcher system that prevents leaves from dropping on the track in the first place, like a net or something?

[CenSin]

This may sound ridiculous, but couldn't someone invent some type of leaf catcher system that prevents leaves from dropping on the track in the first place, like a net or something?

It's called a roof. Build one and very little leaves will get through.

[StevenFrancis]

It's called a roof. Build one and very little leaves will get through.

Yes because we want outside lines to become tunnels again.

[Eric B]

They don't do the rail adhesion gel anymore? Or it wasn't working good enough, and they gave up on it?

[Roadcruiser1]

Yes because we want outside lines to become tunnels again.

 

There is no other answer out there. The only option is to cover up those cuts into tunnels. It would take too long to remove all those leaves for a day, and then doing it again the next day due to the fact more leaves came down overnight...........

[realizm]

There is no other answer out there. The only option is to cover up those cuts into tunnels. It would take too long to remove all those leaves for a day, and then doing it again the next day due to the fact more leaves came down overnight...........

 

That is sort of an extreme way to solve the problem. Thats the equivilant of cracking a nut with a jackhammer.

 

The real answer is weekday GO's as necessary when the leaves really start to build up on the tracks and cause a world of problems for the train crews. This was what they were doing on the Sea Beach Line recently. Over the summer and fall aside from track replacement work, many crews were out there landscaping and cutting shrubs and trees down to get the headstart on the falling leaves obstructing the ROW roadbeds on the from the source.

 

If this can be strategically done on the Brighton line then that will be the solution. Cut some of the the trees down, uproot them, whatever is necessary to nail this problem.

[realizm]

It's called a roof. Build one and very little leaves will get through.

 

This may be cost counterproductive. Better use the allocated funds for other things like floodproofing stations as planned for the Sea Beach rehabilitation project in 2015 for example. I mean to both of you, innovative ideas but the cost of this and will it pay itself off in the long run?

 

I just say cut those sets of trees along the ROW down to oblivion. Problem solved.

 

Now I have to ask myself: How about the property aquisition rights and private property legal problems where the trees causing this is not on MTA property. Hmmmmm....