News A train heads uptown on a downtown track — but good visibility prevents tragedy

[QM1to6Ave]

I'm waiting for some of our RTO guys who know the layout of that area to weigh in here before making any conclusions.

 

That said, the article mentioned the T/O was going very slowly. It is possible to go through red signals and avoid getting tripped if you go slow enough, so the T/O might have known she was wrong railing and thought she was supposed to be doing that. I wonder if this was a rookie T/O or not. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't even know how this an argument. Many areas in the system are set up to be bi-directional. How on earth is a regular everyday passenger suppose to know something is wrong? I'm a railfan, and I would've just been like, "well, this is new!" You guys ever heard of wrong railing. I'm just trying to figure out the details of this myself, though. I don't think the trips of signals are up for trains going in the wrong direction...or, better said, I'm not sure. One thing I think I am sure of is the train moving in the right direction would have been tripped. So, I guess the violence of this crash would have been determined by the speed of the wrong-railing train. I don't know what the signals are like in that area, but I do know that the blocks for wrong-railing are way bigger because of the infrequency of that occurrence. I kinda baffled as to how this happened.

I don't see how one would be so baffled... If you were heading Southbound and started going Northbound, wouldn't you find something wrong with that? 

[paulrivera]

I went southbound on a northbound track once on a train. The train switched to the middle track at 149, skipped 138, then went straight and ended up on the upper level at 125th Street... It was a planned split-section G.O. however.

 

BTW is Pete sure that train wasn't taken out of service before switching directions at Canal?

[trainfan22]

I don't even know how this an argument. Many areas in the system are set up to be bi-directional. How on earth is a regular everyday passenger suppose to know something is wrong? I'm a railfan, and I would've just been like, "well, this is new!" You guys ever heard of wrong railing. I'm just trying to figure out the details of this myself, though. I don't think the trips of signals are up for trains going in the wrong direction...or, better said, I'm not sure. One thing I think I am sure of is the train moving in the right direction would have been tripped. So, I guess the violence of this crash would have been determined by the speed of the wrong-railing train. I don't know what the signals are like in that area, but I do know that the blocks for wrong-railing are way bigger because of the infrequency of that occurrence. I kinda baffled as to how this happened.

Yea, with all the wacky G.O re routes in the IRT up the Bronx in recent years, as a railfan I wouldn't have thought something was wrong. I still remember when 5 trains was going though Union port yard N/B because of a G.O.

 

 

With that being said, I'm shocked a train can travel so far in the wrong direction, always thought the signalling system would trip the train before it got to far.

[ttcsubwayfan]

It's not really about how the tunnels look, but more about how they were set up. With some exceptions, NYC's subway system is set to right-hand traffic just like cars, and their "roads" are generally divided to either four-lane or two-lane bidirectional traffic. Platforms in use are either island or side platforms that serve both directions. This means one can figure out whether their train is running express, local, or the wrong way, simply by observation and using logic. I can see why passengers at Canal might not see any problems, but at Spring St that should have raised eyebrows.

 

Arguably, because the subway system has long stretches of similar setups, it should make things easier for people to remember - or even picture -  the system.

 

Plus, when passing through any station, there is more than enough time or lighting for anyone to see the rails, if not the track bed.

 

That's how I see it. However, I'll agree that passengers are different from me and I can't expect all passengers to pay attention to this stuff. even if it seems to me to be pretty easy to figure out. They have their reasons, and that's their prerogative.

 

I get what you're saying, but there is also a lot of stations with odd configurations, and the average passenger wouldn't really remember where what is. Like 81 St , which is double level. I'm not sure if there are any stations on a trunk line with both express and local services configured with two tracks on one level and two tracks on another, but the point is, passenger don't know the system as well as we do. Even if they expected to see the downtown platforms out the doors of the uptown train, they could have assumed that it's a station with an odd configuration.

 

Point is, there are too many variables.

[itmaybeokay]

As for the passengers not knowing - come on. Even if someone noticed at spring street the train was on a different track than normal people do - and generally SHOULD - assume that it was planned. I suppose we'd prefer passengers pulling the emergency brake every time something looks amiss about a trains movements? Heaven forbid there's a G/O that calls for an unusual move with a train in revenue service. 

 

I wonder if the MTA records the radio transmissions? 

 

I'm really curious what the communication between the tower and the train was. I've heard radio orders to change ends and proceed north and it's always seemed like a coordinated deliberate process. I can't imagine how it would come to be that a T/O would change ends in a station and wrong-rail north without some kind of fuzzy or unclear communication from the tower. Maybe the tower thought the train was in the spur track already? I have no idea. 

[SmallParkShuttle]

I'm probably going to draw flak or this post. It seems that too much protocol was overlooked. As with most news articles on subway mishaps though, there is most likely far more to the story than what was reported.

 

Even though multiple layers of safety measures would have prevented a collision, the whole situation makes me want to question one of the involved employee's actions.

 

I'd imagine that wrong-railing without a G.O. would involve enough phone calls and signing-off to make sure everyone in the division knows where and how far it would be happening, so the T/O would have no doubt about the order given to wrong-rail and the permission to change operating positions. So either the T/O wasn't paying attention or the dispatcher (or maybe RCC) wasn't giving clear and proper directions.

 

Next, the layout of the track should have raised some questions. The nearest interlocking north of Canal on the S/B express is north of 23rd St, and that is a pocket track between S/B local and S/B express. The train would have to wrong-rail all the way to the north side of the 59 St station in order to get back on the N/B side. With extensive delays already in place, nothing short of a catastrophic disaster would force any dispatcher to make the decision to wrong-rail trains like that. All of our fantasy guys would have suggested what the article suggested; relay via the pocket south of Canal.

 

The article mentions that the dispatcher tried to radio the crew upon realizing the problem. If that is true, then the crew should have heard something during that ordeal. I know that there are radio dark spots in the system, but it takes a LONG time to travel from Canal St to just north of Spring St going 10mph, and I can't imagine that that whole stretch is radio-proof. Please, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

For me, at face value it looks like someone wasn't taking their job seriously, or that someone (or ones) involved wasn't paying attention. Just my thoughts. Again, as I stated above, this is only based off of info provided in the article, which I assume is less than the whole story.

[SmallParkShuttle]

I get what you're saying, but there is also a lot of stations with odd configurations, and the average passenger wouldn't really remember where what is. Like 81 St , which is double level. I'm not sure if there are any stations on a trunk line with both express and local services configured with two tracks on one level and two tracks on another, but the point is, passenger don't know the system as well as we do. Even if they expected to see the downtown platforms out the doors of the uptown train, they could have assumed that it's a station with an odd configuration.

 

Point is, there are too many variables.

TTC, I get what you're saying, but those differences are more the exception than the rule. Unless one commutes only on the or lines or a short distance on an outer borough line, just about every commute runs through a four track express-local configuration. Of course there are the three track runs in some areas, but even then seeing less or more tracks than what you're used to seeing raises eyebrows. The only reason NYers wouldn't notice the wrong-rail run through Spring St is more out of willful ignorance than varying station layouts, especially if you saw the exact same scene out of the window in reverse no more than 10-15 minutes ago.

[cybeatsul]

There has to be a marker signal to define the limits of train movement and an absolute stop and stay. Even the crew did not get emergency communication from Control Center, they must call via the wayside, platform or token booth phone for permission.

[Tokkemon]

Am I correct in assuming they simply didn't go over the switch south of Canal and assumed it was *NORTH* of Canal? If so it seems like the mistake of the T/O not knowing the track config and dispatch either not telling her or out of reach at that time.

 

What doesn't make sense is dispatch's role. Were the wrong-way signals green or were they red? If the latter, the train would have been stopped in its tracks (literally) long before Spring St right?

[cybeatsul]

The truth is train operator must get permission and establish positive communication with supervision making these wrong rail moves. If no communication was established, the train operator must stop and stay!

[Lance]

I don't see how one would be so baffled... If you were heading Southbound and started going Northbound, wouldn't you find something wrong with that? 

It depends on the situation. Wrong-railing, as stated previously, is not uncommon in emergency situations and especially not when it comes to certain service diversions. That seemingly never-ending late night 7-line single-tracking operation west of Court Square comes to mind regarding the latter. Unless you're familiar with the rail setup and have knowledge of where the switches are in relation to the train, most riders won't think much of it. They'll think it's odd since it looks like you're going against the flow of traffic when the walled stations are to the left of the direction of the train, but they won't think of any potential danger because they'll assume the operator knows what (s)he is doing.

 

From what I've been reading on SubChat regarding this incident, there are some important things that need to be mentioned. First and foremost, a train can travel in the wrong direction without tripping a signal on 8th Avenue. Since most of the 8th Avenue line signals date back to the original IND, the trippers only work in one direction, That's how she was able to go from Canal to West 4th without going BIE.

 

Secondly, there seems to be a failure on several levels. Obviously, fault lies on the operator (and possibly the conductor as well) for not knowing the track and switch layout of the line and continuing to proceed up the line without realizing there weren't any switches coming up. The tower gets one for not noticing the train never actually reversed using the pocket south of Canal or the tracks at WTC itself to change direction. Finally, dispatch itself can be at fault as well for how the instructions were worded to what I hope is a probie operator. Simply saying "reverse out of Canal" would to most operators (and a few fans here) obviously entail using either method mentioned above to get to the northbound express tracks. However, to someone who doesn't know the area that well, it can be assumed that there are some switches north of the actual station that can be used as a turnaround.

 

That's just what I got from all of this. I too would like some of our wonderful crew members to chime in this.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It depends on the situation. Wrong-railing, as stated previously, is not uncommon in emergency situations and especially not when it comes to certain service diversions. That seemingly never-ending late night 7-line single-tracking operation west of Court Square comes to mind regarding the latter. Unless you're familiar with the rail setup and have knowledge of where the switches are in relation to the train, most riders won't think much of it. They'll think it's odd since it looks like you're going against the flow of traffic when the walled stations are to the left of the direction of the train, but they won't think of any potential danger because they'll assume the operator knows what (s)he is doing.

 

From what I've been reading on SubChat regarding this incident, there are some important things that need to be mentioned. First and foremost, a train can travel in the wrong direction without tripping a signal on 8th Avenue. Since most of the 8th Avenue line signals date back to the original IND, the trippers only work in one direction, That's how she was able to go from Canal to West 4th without going BIE.

 

Secondly, there seems to be a failure on several levels. Obviously, fault lies on the operator (and possibly the conductor as well) for not knowing the track and switch layout of the line and continuing to proceed up the line without realizing there weren't any switches coming up. The tower gets one for not noticing the train never actually reversed using the pocket south of Canal or the tracks at WTC itself to change direction. Finally, dispatch itself can be at fault as well for how the instructions were worded to what I hope is a probie operator. Simply saying "reverse out of Canal" would to most operators (and a few fans here) obviously entail using either method mentioned above to get to the northbound express tracks. However, to someone who doesn't know the area that well, it can be assumed that there are some switches north of the actual station that can be used as a turnaround.

 

That's just what I got from all of this. I too would like some of our wonderful crew members to chime in this.

Well of course the passengers won't be experts but they should at least as you said "think it's odd since it looks like you're going against the flow of traffic when the walled stations are to the left of the direction of the train".

[Union Tpke]

Yea, with all the wacky G.O re routes in the IRT up the Bronx in recent years, as a railfan I wouldn't have thought something was wrong. I still remember when 5 trains was going though Unionport yard N/B because of a G.O.

I would love to be in that GO. Great view of the redbirds

 

I get what you're saying, but there is also a lot of stations with odd configurations, and the average passenger wouldn't really remember where what is. Like 81 St , which is double level. I'm not sure if there are any stations on a trunk line with both express and local services configured with two tracks on one level and two tracks on another, but the point is, passenger don't know the system as well as we do. Even if they expected to see the downtown platforms out the doors of the uptown train, they could have assumed that it's a station with an odd configuration.

 

Point is, there are too many variables.

well if they have been using the same route for a long stretch of time they should be paying attention.

 

http://nypost.com/2014/08/26/workers-suspended-after-subway-train-goes-the-wrong-way/

 

Workers suspended after subway train goes the wrong way

By Associated Press August 26, 2014 | 10:48am

 

New York City transit officials say a subway operator and conductor have been taken out of service while they investigate how a train ended up going the wrong way.

Officials say the uptown “A” train pulled out of the Canal Street hub onto downtown tracks on Aug. 11.

The crew apparently did not hear a dispatcher’s radio warning.

The operator stopped after seeing another train’s headlights at West 4th Street. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority says there was no danger because the oncoming train had been halted.

The MTA says there had been signal problems, and the operator had been told to back up and switch to the other track. Instead, she kept going.

The MTA said a wrong-way train is “extremely uncommon.”

[Eric B]

From what I've been reading on SubChat regarding this incident, there are some important things that need to be mentioned. First and foremost, a train can travel in the wrong direction without tripping a signal on 8th Avenue. Since most of the 8th Avenue line signals date back to the original IND, the trippers only work in one direction, That's how she was able to go from Canal to West 4th without going BIE.

 

Secondly, there seems to be a failure on several levels. Obviously, fault lies on the operator (and possibly the conductor as well) for not knowing the track and switch layout of the line and continuing to proceed up the line without realizing there weren't any switches coming up. The tower gets one for not noticing the train never actually reversed using the pocket south of Canal or the tracks at WTC itself to change direction. Finally, dispatch itself can be at fault as well for how the instructions were worded to what I hope is a probie operator. Simply saying "reverse out of Canal" would to most operators (and a few fans here) obviously entail using either method mentioned above to get to the northbound express tracks. However, to someone who doesn't know the area that well, it can be assumed that there are some switches north of the actual station that can be used as a turnaround.

 

That's just what I got from all of this. I too would like some of our wonderful crew members to chime in this.

Yeah, I was starting to wonder if rather than the dispatcher telling them to wrong-rail (which is how I heard it when reported in the news), if they said "you're turning back at Canal", meaning via the spur, and the person changed ends in the station thinking the crossover was behind them. That would work if at the next stop, Chambers, because then you would be heading back through the spur.

For one thing, the lack of signals at all should tell you something's not right. When you change ends, you expect to get a "lineup" out of the station or relay area. (There apparently aren't even any markers, though you think there would be, since all those signals in that area are new, from the fire at the Chambers room several years ago). That's apparently when radio contact must have been lost (the article raised the question about the "dead spots" in the system in pointing out where else blame could lie).

[SmallParkShuttle]

Yeah, I was starting to wonder if rather than the dispatcher telling them to wrong-rail (which is how I heard it when reported in the news), if they said "you're turning back at Canal", meaning via the spur, and the person changed ends in the station thinking the crossover was behind them. That would work if at the next stop, Chambers, because then you would be heading back through the spur.

For one thing, the lack of signals at all should tell you something's not right. When you change ends, you expect to get a "lineup" out of the station or relay area. (There apparently aren't even any markers, though you think there would be, since all those signals in that area are new, from the fire at the Chambers room several years ago). That's apparently when radio contact must have been lost (the article raised the question about the "dead spots" in the system in pointing out where else blame could lie).

Like you said, the operator should have expected a line-up upon changing ends, which should have raised a flag. As far as knowing the tracks, that was literally the last set of tracks the operator ran on, so that just makes the "I am not familiar with the area" argument that much harder to use. It sucks that the crew has to go through this, but this is too big of an issue to just let slide by - especially when the Daily News gets their paws on the story.

[SmallParkShuttle]

Next, the layout of the track should have raised some questions. The nearest interlocking north of Canal on the S/B express is north of 23rd St, and that is a pocket track between S/B local and S/B express. The train would have to wrong-rail all the way to the north side of the 59 St station in order to get back on the N/B side.

Oops, I forgot that the relay track north of 23 St is between the express tracks, not between the local and express tracks. That would give a relay point north of 23 St, not 59 St. Looks like I failed schoolcar; this T/O gets to keep his armchair...

[Eric B]

That still would be WAY too far to relay back, especially with other trains already in that stretch.

[SmallParkShuttle]

That still would be WAY too far to relay back, especially with other trains already in that stretch.

That would've been the first thought in my head if I got the order to wrong-rail from dispatch: "there's got to be at least some one behind me".

 

One night a while ago I was on a S/B train that just got to the Gold St interlocking when we encountered some really bad issues. They had to bring the train back to Canal to discharge. once I heard that announcement I said to my wife, "we're going to be on this train a while". It took us about 40 minutes to get back to Canal St.

[realizm]

Secondly, there seems to be a failure on several levels. Obviously, fault lies on the operator (and possibly the conductor as well) for not knowing the track and switch layout of the line and continuing to proceed up the line without realizing there weren't any switches coming up. The tower gets one for not noticing the train never actually reversed using the pocket south of Canal or the tracks at WTC itself to change direction. Finally, dispatch itself can be at fault as well for how the instructions were worded to what I hope is a probie operator. Simply saying "reverse out of Canal" would to most operators (and a few fans here) obviously entail using either method mentioned above to get to the northbound express tracks. However, to someone who doesn't know the area that well, it can be assumed that there are some switches north of the actual station that can be used as a turnaround.

 

That's just what I got from all of this. I too would like some of our wonderful crew members to chime in this.

 

Well stated because they should have known, the T/D, T/O and the C/R. The T/O should have noticed the change, why did she miss that? It makes no sense.

That would've been the first thought in my head if I got the order to wrong-rail from dispatch: "there's got to be at least some one behind me".

 

One night a while ago I was on a S/B train that just got to the Gold St interlocking when we encountered some really bad issues. They had to bring the train back to Canal to discharge. once I heard that announcement I said to my wife, "we're going to be on this train a while". It took us about 40 minutes to get back to Canal St.

 

I had incidents due to a broken rail twice, one of them was on the Manhattan bridge. I said the heck with this and took the R. The trains were going only 10MPH with reds in between. The other time was on the 1, 2 and 3 during rush hr! 

[INDman]

Well of course the passengers won't be experts but they should at least as you said "think it's odd since it looks like you're going against the flow of traffic when the walled stations are to the left of the direction of the train".

And even then, what are you or them going to do about it if you realize you're going the opposite direction of the normal direction of traffic? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And even then, what are you or them going to do about it if you realize you're going the opposite direction of the normal direction of traffic? 

Trains are obviously different, but when I've been on the express bus and the driver was going the wrong way, we would yell out and notify him that he was going the wrong way and direct him accordingly unless it was to our benefit. lol  I usually ride in the first car on the subway, so I would go to the front and bang on the door to try to get the person's attention, but I don't just blindly put my trust in anyone and think that they can't make a mistake.  It's my job as a passenger to be aware of my surroundings and what is going on.  Too many people sit and daydream.

[itmaybeokay]

Trains are obviously different, but when I've been on the express bus and the driver was going the wrong way, we would yell out and notify him that he was going the wrong way and direct him accordingly unless it was to our benefit. lol  I usually ride in the first car on the subway, so I would go to the front and bang on the door to try to get the person's attention, but I don't just blindly put my trust in anyone and think that they can't make a mistake.  It's my job as a passenger to be aware of my surroundings and what is going on.  Too many people sit and daydream.

 

I think the last thing NYCT needs is people banging on the door to the operator cab when they think they see something wrong with the train's operation. 99.999% of the time the passenger would be wrong. In fact, this incident is the first i've really even heard of in which the train was simply being operated incorrectly. 

 

In terms of being aware of one's surroundings - yes. "If you see something, say something" et cetera et cetera. 

 

But I don't think any of us should, or should be expected to, be backseat operators. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think the last thing NYCT needs is people banging on the door to the operator cab when they think they see something wrong with the train's operation. 99.999% of the time the passenger would be wrong. In fact, this incident is the first i've really even heard of in which the train was simply being operated incorrectly. 

 

In terms of being aware of one's surroundings - yes. "If you see something, say something" et cetera et cetera. 

 

But I don't think any of us should, or should be expected to, be backseat operators. 

Of course not, but at the same time sitting there and looking stupid does nothing.  If my life was in danger I would do whatever I needed to. I wouldn't give a damn what anyone thought, esp. if it kept me from being 6 feet under.  These passengers along with the workers were just lucky that the train was going at a very slow speed and that the Southbound train was held at West 4th street, otherwise this would've been a different story.  So let me ask you, you think it's perfectly fine for a train to be going in the opposite direction while passengers sit there completely oblivious to what is going on?  It's not as if these sorts of things happen often #1, and #2 people don't just jump up and play hero unless it's obvious that if they don't, they may be killed.  For what it's worth, I was very close to being in an incident where I would've had to have jumped in, but luckily for me I needed a Metrocard, so that spared me.  The story where that BxM18 express bus driver suddenly became unconscious would've ended tragically if two quick thinking passengers didn't jump up and run to the front to steer the bus.  They got on my BxM18 express bus (we were the bus behind the one that crashed) afterwards, and I asked what happened, and they explained what happened and what they did, and I commended them for it, as one of them sometimes rides on my bus.  All of the passengers were too busy yelling and being in shock to do anything.  Surely you would be one of those people yelling instead of acting. 

 

I am not going to sit back while my life is in danger because I put too much trust in another human being just because they're supposedly a "trained" employee... Please... When it's necessary, you use common sense and go with what your gut says to do.

[trainfan22]

And even then, what are you or them going to do about it if you realize you're going the opposite direction of the normal direction of traffic?

if its the older cars, pull the emergency cord? If its an NTT they could use that intercom thing the NTT have to speak to the C/R to express your concern.