R211 Discussion Thread

[Lil 57]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Your second paragraph is spot on. A camera is good for identifying a perpetrator after a crime or people who might be assembling prior to committing a crime. Law enforcement personnel on the scene is a better deterrent. Problem is that you have to pay those people. Look no further than the red light camera program. Cost benefits.

As to your first point. The  doesn’t want to place large orders for equipment with any one manufacturer. Any delays or faulty equipment leaves them high and dry. Remember the faulty trucks on the subway cars or the Grumman Flxible bus fiasco ? Relying on a sole source is really rolling the dice, IMO. My opinion. Carry on.

Exactly, Look at whats happening with the 7000s in DC. The WMATA wanted to replace all of their older subway cars with one new car type but when the 7000s had to be pulled from service due to various issues, they retired so many older cars that there aren't enough cars to obtain normal levels of service, which make most lines operate every 12-20 minutes instead of every 6-12 minutes. That's why it's better to do so in batches so if issues arise and a particular fleet has to be pulled from service, it doesn't have catastrophic effects on service levels.

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

Exactly, Look at whats happening with the 7000s in DC. The WMATA wanted to replace all of their older subway cars with one new car type but when the 7000s had to be pulled from service due to various issues, they retired so many older cars that there aren't enough cars to obtain normal levels of service, which make most lines operate every 12-20 minutes instead of every 6-12 minutes. That's why it's better to do so in batches so if issues arise and a particular fleet has to be pulled from service, it doesn't have catastrophic effects on service levels.

To piggyback on your post I don’t think any one manufacturer would want to tie up their production lines with one product of subway, railcar or bus. IIRC the R62 and the R62A cars came about because Kawasaki couldn’t provide the amount of cars needed so they and the  added Bombardier to the pot for production. The first few R62A cars are actually from Kawasaki and not Bombardier. Splitting up the contract that way also allows the prime contractor(s) to utilize different parts suppliers which should speed up the production process. Basically what I’m saying is that sole source production is time consuming and riskier in comparison to spreading it out. My take. Carry on.

[subwaycommuter1983]

1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

Exactly, Look at whats happening with the 7000s in DC. The WMATA wanted to replace all of their older subway cars with one new car type but when the 7000s had to be pulled from service due to various issues, they retired so many older cars that there aren't enough cars to obtain normal levels of service, which make most lines operate every 12-20 minutes instead of every 6-12 minutes. That's why it's better to do so in batches so if issues arise and a particular fleet has to be pulled from service, it doesn't have catastrophic effects on service levels.

The problem is that the MTA has the tendency to wait until the subway cars are literally falling apart to replace them. This current capital program should have included car orders to replace the r62's and r68's considering how long it takes to build, deliver, test and put new trains in service.

[trainfan22]

26 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The problem is that the MTA has the tendency to wait until the subway cars are literally falling apart to replace them. This current capital program should have included car orders to replace the r62's and r68's considering how long it takes to build, deliver, test and put new trains in service.

The 62s and 68s are stainless steel so it's highly unlikely they will fall apart, just keep SMSing them when needed. With the cars the R142s and R160s replaced it was mainly the body of the cars that were falling apart due to acid baths to wash off graffiti.

 

If the R32 & R42 can run for 50 years then so can the R62s & R68s. I honestly think the R38s, R40s and R44s could have ran until 50 as well if they didn't have body problems. The R38s were single handedly holding down the fort on the late in their service lifes while the R160 order was ongoing.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't replace the Franklin Shuttle cars at all, just simply keep them in service after the mainline 68s are retired. The Franklin shuttle could be NYC version of that old trolley line in Boston that still uses PCCs.

[m7zanr160s]

On 4/13/2022 at 5:42 PM, rbrome said:

Absolutely! People would have had somewhere to run to instead of everyone trapped in that one car. I've read reports about people desperately trying to get to other cars, but the end doors were locked. Open gangways would have helped. If I have to be trapped in a space with an active shooter, I'll take the space that's 5x larger with places to run to, thank you very much. That's a no-brainer for me. 

I also wonder if open storm doors would've been a bad thing in this type of situation? Imagine a stampede between train cars. And if someone falls and triggers the emergency brake... Bad situation made much worse. Open gangways all the way.

[Joel Powers]

3 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

The 62s and 68s are stainless steel so it's highly unlikely they will fall apart, just keep SMSing them when needed. With the cars the R142s and R160s replaced it was mainly the body of the cars that were falling apart due to acid baths to wash off graffiti.

 

If the R32 & R42 can run for 50 years then so can the R62s & R68s. I honestly think the R38s, R40s and R44s could have ran until 50 as well if they didn't have body problems. The R38s were single handedly holding down the fort on the late in their service lifes while the R160 order was ongoing.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't replace the Franklin Shuttle cars at all, just simply keep them in service after the mainline 68s are retired. The Franklin shuttle could be NYC version of that old trolley line in Boston that still uses PCCs.

This is unlikely to happen.

[Joel Powers]

5 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

Exactly, Look at whats happening with the 7000s in DC. The WMATA wanted to replace all of their older subway cars with one new car type but when the 7000s had to be pulled from service due to various issues, they retired so many older cars that there aren't enough cars to obtain normal levels of service, which make most lines operate every 12-20 minutes instead of every 6-12 minutes. That's why it's better to do so in batches so if issues arise and a particular fleet has to be pulled from service, it doesn't have catastrophic effects on service levels.

WMATA isn't used to ordering subway cars from more than one builder at the same time. They rarely do that with the bus side of operations as it is...

[Vulturious]

17 minutes ago, Joel Powers said:

This is unlikely to happen.

I would have to disagree with you, this is more likely to happen compared to doing anything with the Franklin Av Shuttle such as extending the platforms or special orders for the Franklin Av shuttle specifically. 

[Joel Powers]

7 hours ago, Vulturious said:

I would have to disagree with you, this is more likely to happen compared to doing anything with the Franklin Av Shuttle such as extending the platforms or special orders for the Franklin Av shuttle specifically. 

If the MTA does decide to place an extra option to the upcoming R211 order (if the contract allows), then a 2 to 5 4 car sets should be more than enough to cover any lingering loose ends. I'm under the impress, to avoid more bad press from last week's incident, the TA will have to speed up the retirement process of the R68s and R68As (even though the shooting was on R46 car #5551, they do have similar spec's).

[Vulturious]

5 hours ago, Joel Powers said:

If the MTA does decide to place an extra option to the upcoming R211 order (if the contract allows), then a 2 to 5 4 car sets should be more than enough to cover any lingering loose ends. I'm under the impress, to avoid more bad press from last week's incident, the TA will have to speed up the retirement process of the R68s and R68As (even though the shooting was on R46 car #5551, they do have similar spec's).

They most likely want to now after that incident, I can agree. However, the Franklin Av Shuttle will need a much more special order of any new kind of train because there are some stations that can't hold more than 2-75 feet long cars. It's uneven for any 60 footers, three cars is probably too long for the Franklin Av Shuttle. I guess we'll see what they want to do.

[darkstar8983]

58 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

They most likely want to now after that incident, I can agree. However, the Franklin Av Shuttle will need a much more special order of any new kind of train because there are some stations that can't hold more than 2-75 feet long cars. It's uneven for any 60 footers, three cars is probably too long for the Franklin Av Shuttle. I guess we'll see what they want to do.

I actually had a thought about this: 

 

What IF:

Some of the R179 cars (4-car units) are broken up with one of the two B-cars taken out from two train sets and inserted into another 4-car set to make a 5-car set and a 3-car set. If six 4-car sets are broken up, then you  could have the Franklin  cars and additional 5-car sets to make three more 10-car trains. 

 

This way, you can keep 164 cars are kept in 4-car sets for the  (104 cars for main service and 60 cars as spares), and you would have 18 cars left for the Franklin , and three additional 10-car trains to have 16 10-car trains.

 

The caveat I do see with this plan is that you would need to order 200+ R211 cars in 8-car sets to have a new  train fleet because the current R143 / R160A cars are only enough to run the  and  trains.

Edited April 18, 2022 by darkstar8983

[LGA Link N Train]

14 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

Some of the R179 cars (4-car units) are broken up with one of the two B-cars taken out from two train sets and inserted into another 4-car set to make a 5-car set and a 3-car set. If six 4-car sets are broken up, then you  could have the Franklin  cars and additional 5-car sets to make three more 10-car trains. 

 

This way, you can keep 164 cars are kept in 4-car sets for the  (104 cars for main service and 60 cars as spares), and you would have 18 cars left for the Franklin , and three additional 10-car trains to have 16 10-car trains.

 

The caveat I do see with this plan is that you would need to order 200+ R211 cars in 8-car sets to have a new  train fleet because the current R143 / R160A cars are only enough to run the  and  trains.

IMO it’d be more cost effective to just upgrade the Franklin  platforms from 180’ to about 310-320’ so that you wouldn’t have to order a special rolling stock for them (I mentioned this in the proposals thread). While your idea for splitting the 179’s sound interesting, wouldn’t it be more effective to send 207/Pitkin’s 4 car 179’s to ENY instead of ordering a 3rd Option of 4 car R211’s?

[2 Train Master]

23 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Your second paragraph is spot on. A camera is good for identifying a perpetrator after a crime or people who might be assembling prior to committing a crime. Law enforcement personnel on the scene is a better deterrent. Problem is that you have to pay those people. Look no further than the red light camera program. Cost benefits.

As to your first point. The  doesn’t want to place large orders for equipment with any one manufacturer. Any delays or faulty equipment leaves them high and dry. Remember the faulty trucks on the subway cars or the Grumman Flxible bus fiasco ? Relying on a sole source is really rolling the dice, IMO. My opinion. Carry on.

True, very very good point, I didn't specifically mean one manufacture. With the R-160 Order was one large order with two different builders as the R-142/A etc. I do understand both sides but I'm pointing out the financial side where Kawasaki is the base order however there can be further option orders of the R-211 with a different builder which in my opinion would be efficient and cost effective to buy sooner than later as inflation rises. Having an option for ex 600 subway cars to replace the R-68 / A series in 2022-2025(while the base option R-211) are still being delivered would cost less than an entire new order in 2027(just an example) and cars wouldn't arrive til 2 years later. Would make the entire B division uniformed with 60 footers and NTT. 

[subwaycommuter1983]

6 hours ago, 2 Train Master said:

True, very very good point, I didn't specifically mean one manufacture. With the R-160 Order was one large order with two different builders as the R-142/A etc. I do understand both sides but I'm pointing out the financial side where Kawasaki is the base order however there can be further option orders of the R-211 with a different builder which in my opinion would be efficient and cost effective to buy sooner than later as inflation rises. Having an option for ex 600 subway cars to replace the R-68 / A series in 2022-2025(while the base option R-211) are still being delivered would cost less than an entire new order in 2027(just an example) and cars wouldn't arrive til 2 years later. Would make the entire B division uniformed with 60 footers and NTT. 

That's what the MTA needs to do. The MTA cannot continue to make the same mistake they did with the r179's. Those r32's and r42's would have been retired much sooner if the MTA would have included an additional option order of r160's instead of creating a new order of r179's.

[Trainmaster5]

8 hours ago, 2 Train Master said:

True, very very good point, I didn't specifically mean one manufacture. With the R-160 Order was one large order with two different builders as the R-142/A etc. I do understand both sides but I'm pointing out the financial side where Kawasaki is the base order however there can be further option orders of the R-211 with a different builder which in my opinion would be efficient and cost effective to buy sooner than later as inflation rises. Having an option for ex 600 subway cars to replace the R-68 / A series in 2022-2025(while the base option R-211) are still being delivered would cost less than an entire new order in 2027(just an example) and cars wouldn't arrive til 2 years later. Would make the entire B division uniformed with 60 footers and NTT. 

I understand where you and the other folks are coming from. Problem is that the  is broke. They’re in dire straits at the moment and, at least to me , they’d have to raise the fares to $5 or more on the NYCT end and raise the railroad fares by a big percentage to even pay for what they’re already got in the pipeline or the wishlist. Just my take. Carry on. 

[subwaycommuter1983]

12 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I understand where you and the other folks are coming from. Problem is that the  is broke. They’re in dire straits at the moment and, at least to me , they’d have to raise the fares to $5 or more on the NYCT end and raise the railroad fares by a big percentage to even pay for what they’re already got in the pipeline or the wishlist. Just my take. Carry on. 

$5?? People can barely afford to pay $2.75. Why do you think most of the farebeating is happening in poor neighborhoods like the Bronx and upper Manhattan?? Is because they can't afford it. Everything is going up and jobs are not paying well. Low and middle income New Yorkers are struggling right now.

Plus the MTA recently received billions of dollars from the federal government. If they want more money, then they have to tax the rich.

[Joel Powers]

5 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

$5?? People can barely afford to pay $2.75. Why do you think most of the farebeating is happening in poor neighborhoods like the Bronx and upper Manhattan?? Is because they can't afford it. Everything is going up and jobs are not paying well. Low and middle income New Yorkers are struggling right now.

Plus the MTA recently received billions of dollars from the federal government. If they want more money, then they have to tax the rich.

Hence why people are leaving NY in droves. However, I have noticed in other cities that alot of transit systems are experimenting with free bus service and reduced railfare. If the farebeating continues, then the MTA will need to consider getting rid of farebox revenue and possibly seek other streams of funding. 

[darkstar8983]

On 4/18/2022 at 12:30 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

IMO it’d be more cost effective to just upgrade the Franklin  platforms from 180’ to about 310-320’ so that you wouldn’t have to order a special rolling stock for them (I mentioned this in the proposals thread). While your idea for splitting the 179’s sound interesting, wouldn’t it be more effective to send 207/Pitkin’s 4 car 179’s to ENY instead of ordering a 3rd Option of 4 car R211’s?

I completely agree with your idea of just sending the 4-car R179s from 207 St to ENY for the  /  to use them along with the 32 R160s (9943-9974), while the  keeps the R160As from 8381-8652 and the  uses R143/R160 cars 8101-8380, and upgrading the Franklin Shuttle platform at Botanic Garden to 250' so they can fit a 4-car train. Prospect Park, Franklin Av, and Park Place I think are already 240 feet long (I could be wrong). 

[darkstar8983]

On 4/17/2022 at 4:31 PM, Lil 57 said:

Exactly, Look at whats happening with the 7000s in DC. The WMATA wanted to replace all of their older subway cars with one new car type but when the 7000s had to be pulled from service due to various issues, they retired so many older cars that there aren't enough cars to obtain normal levels of service, which make most lines operate every 12-20 minutes instead of every 6-12 minutes. That's why it's better to do so in batches so if issues arise and a particular fleet has to be pulled from service, it doesn't have catastrophic effects on service levels.

and also don't forget what happened with the R179s (both times the whole fleet had to be pulled).

In Jan, 2020, somehow full service was maintained when the R179s were out because they had to re-activate the R42s for the  and use extra R160s / R143s, and the  had to be run ONLY with R32s and the  with only R46s, all cars that were almost falling apart.  (this was all pre-COVID, and almost 6 million riders/day to transport).

The second fleet pull in June 2020 was easier initially because the  was running reduced service, allowing R143s to run on the  in place of the R179s, and the  had to use the  and 's R160s. (The  was also running reduced service, and extra R160s were pulled from the  during the final phase of the car swap between Coney Island and Jamaica). This way, the available R46s could run on the  line, since the MTA was trying not to run the R32s. In the end, remember that the R32s had to be re-activated in July for the  services because the  had to resume full service in July.

[darkstar8983]

On 4/16/2022 at 8:47 PM, Daniel The Cool said:

Actually you need over 500 R211s to replaced 207th/Pitkin's R46s.

There are only 44 8-car trains of R46s in Pitkin (352 cars), but I do see what you mean by the extra R211s (to increase the spare factor).

[m7zanr160s]

23 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

$5?? People can barely afford to pay $2.75. Why do you think most of the farebeating is happening in poor neighborhoods like the Bronx and upper Manhattan?? Is because they can't afford it. Everything is going up and jobs are not paying well. Low and middle income New Yorkers are struggling right now.

Plus the MTA recently received billions of dollars from the federal government. If they want more money, then they have to tax the rich.

A lot of these people can afford it, they just choose not to pay. Just check out the wares of some of these fare beaters. Some rocking the latest gear. But hey, somehow funds for transportation just isn't important.

[Joel Powers]

9 hours ago, m7zanr160s said:

A lot of these people can afford it, they just choose not to pay. Just check out the wares of some of these fare beaters. Some rocking the latest gear. But hey, somehow funds for transportation just isn't important.

Then if the NYPD won't do anything, then have armed guards patrol the most troublesome stations where farebeating is running rampant.

[subwaycommuter1983]

On 4/19/2022 at 12:25 PM, Joel Powers said:

Hence why people are leaving NY in droves. However, I have noticed in other cities that alot of transit systems are experimenting with free bus service and reduced railfare. If the farebeating continues, then the MTA will need to consider getting rid of farebox revenue and possibly seek other streams of funding. 

The government needs to tax the rich people especially the billionaire. The MTA needs to keep the base fare at 2.75,  The $5 city wide discount for  commuter rails should be used for peak service. People should not have to pay $18 round trip to ride the Metro North in the Bronx and LIRR in Brooklyn or Queens to get to Manhattan. That's too much money.

[Joel Powers]

1 minute ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The government needs to tax the rich people especially the billionaire. The MTA needs to keep the base fare at 2.75,  The $5 city wide discount for  commuter rails should be used for peak service. People should not have to pay $18 round trip to ride the Metro North in the Bronx and LIRR in Brooklyn or Queens to get to Manhattan. That's too much money.

I agree, they have all the money in the world. I'd say tax them to oblivion. 

[CenSin]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:44 AM, m7zanr160s said:

A lot of these people can afford it, they just choose not to pay. Just check out the wares of some of these fare beaters. Some rocking the latest gear. But hey, somehow funds for transportation just isn't important.

Saw last week at Jay Street–MetroTech: tall late-twenties white blonde dude in a suit just hopped the turnstile. Everyone is doing it. Time to stock up on more scorn and derision.