R211 Discussion Thread

[NBTA]

Believe it or not, 2025 is right around the corner. 

Is 6th Ave getting CBTC? If so, you might have to throw a CBTC ready train onto the , so this is how I would assign cars if so.

R68:

R143:

R160:  and all of Jamaica ()

R179: (10 Cars)(8 Cars)

R211:

My assumptions can always be wrong, but I could see this happening. Jamaica getting 179s can supplement the  and the .

 

 

[subwaycommuter1983]

4 hours ago, NBTA said:

Believe it or not, 2025 is right around the corner. 

Is 6th Ave getting CBTC? If so, you might have to throw a CBTC ready train onto the , so this is how I would assign cars if so.

R68:

R143:

R160:  and all of Jamaica ()

R179: (10 Cars)(8 Cars)

R211:

My assumptions can always be wrong, but I could see this happening. Jamaica getting 179s can supplement the  and the .

 

 

Concourse can only handle one car fleet. Therefore, the D will only get either the r160's from Jamaica or the r211A's. Also, I don't think the D will get open gangway trains. It's not as crowded as the A, E,  or F. Also, the B may go to Concourse.

As for Jamaica getting r211's, it all depends on how many open gangway trains that are included in the option orders. 

IMO the E should get the base order of open gangway trains (20 cars).

[R179 8258]

2 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Concourse can only handle one car fleet. Therefore, the D will only get either the r160's from Jamaica or the r211A's. Also, I don't think the D will get open gangway trains. It's not as crowded as the A, E,  or F. Also, the B may go to Concourse.

As for Jamaica getting r211's, it all depends on how many open gangway trains that are included in the option orders. 

IMO the E should get the base order of open gangway trains (20 cars).

The  is slated to Concourse in the future. It was said a few pages back. The MTA wants all CBTC all in one yard , with makes sense , just like how they have the SBS routes all in one depot (MJQ & Gun Hill) and of course how Jamaica Yard   

Edited May 5, 2022 by R179 8258

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Having the  at Concourse would make sense if 6th Ave will be getting CBTC soon after 8th and the same type of NTT trains are assigned to both the  and , whether that will be R160s or option-order R211s. But given that Concourse is one of the smaller yards, I wasn’t sure if it could handle both lines. I suppose it could as long as they have the same fleet.

Edited May 5, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[subwaycommuter1983]

7 hours ago, R179 8258 said:

The  is slated to Concourse in the future. It was said a few pages back. The MTA wants all CBTC all in one yard , with makes sense , just like how they have the SBS routes all in one depot (MJQ & Gun Hill) and of course how Jamaica Yard   

I just hope that sending the B to Concourse will allow the B to run between Bedford Park and Brighton Beach from 5 am to 11pm Monday to Fridays and it will allow the B to run between Bedford Park and 2nd Ave/Houston from 5am to 11pm.

CPW and Concourse can really get a boost in off peak local service. Also, weekend track work on CPW doesn't happen too often.

[R32 3838]

The going to Concourse is just a rumor and now that Astoria CBTC is back on the table, It's best to Leave the at Coney Island and just have it use R160's along with the and . By the time Astoria gets CBTC (I would say around 2027-28 ish), The R211 order would be complete if all options are exercised. 

 

Let the get a fresh new fleet of R211's while Jamaica Gets a batch to push the R160's back to CI for the . I think that's whats going to happen anyway.

[R179 8258]

On 5/5/2022 at 10:33 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I just hope that sending the B to Concourse will allow the B to run between Bedford Park and Brighton Beach from 5 am to 11pm Monday to Fridays and it will allow the B to run between Bedford Park and 2nd Ave/Houston from 5am to 11pm.

CPW and Concourse can really get a boost in off peak local service. Also, weekend track work on CPW doesn't happen too often.

Yeah the service is really needed ! Especially on  the weekend

[R179 8258]

6 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

The going to Concourse is just a rumor and now that Astoria CBTC is back on the table, It's best to Leave the at Coney Island and just have it use R160's along with the and . By the time Astoria gets CBTC (I would say around 2027-28 ish), The R211 order would be complete if all options are exercised. 

 

Let the get a fresh new fleet of R211's while Jamaica Gets a batch to push the R160's back to CI for the . I think that's whats going to happen anyway.

Honestly I think CBTC for Astoria is a waste because the Astoria Line is only from Queensboro to Astoria which is like 6 to 7 stops. If we want to go to the over crowding with Astoria , they can simple just add more trains pre hour on the  and  because the R211 order isn’t just for CBTC lines it’s also for fleet expansion      They might just have the R211 on the 8th/6th Ave lines. The  might get some split some R160 with  but the Coney Island will main have to deal with the R68/As until they’re retired and then the whole B Division we be all NTTs  

[Bill from Maspeth]

7 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

The going to Concourse is just a rumor and now that Astoria CBTC is back on the table, It's best to Leave the at Coney Island and just have it use R160's along with the and . By the time Astoria gets CBTC (I would say around 2027-28 ish), The R211 order would be complete if all options are exercised. 

 

Let the get a fresh new fleet of R211's while Jamaica Gets a batch to push the R160's back to CI for the . I think that's whats going to happen anyway.

I say the B can't possibly join the D as being assigned to CCYD for Inspections and "Troubles".  That's because the barn has just 3 tracks and one of them has the wheel truing machine.  There simply wouldn't be enough space for all those cars.  CIYD has plenty of barn space to handle the B fleet.

[subwaycommuter1983]

3 hours ago, R179 8258 said:

Honestly I think CBTC for Astoria is a waste because the Astoria Line is only from Queensboro to Astoria which is like 6 to 7 stops. If we want to go to the over crowding with Astoria , they can simple just add more trains pre hour on the  and  because the R211 order isn’t just for CBTC lines it’s also for fleet expansion      They might just have the R211 on the 8th/6th Ave lines. The  might get some split some R160 with  but the Coney Island will main have to deal with the R68/As until they’re retired and then the whole B Division we be all NTTs  

I agree 100%!! Right now it's a bigger priority to install CBTC on 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue, which has higher ridership, and will allow B and D to have NTTs in addition to the A, C trains. Plus, it's pretty unfair to improve service on 8th Avenue, while worsening service on 6th Avenue. That's why 6th Avenue needs CBTC.

If the MTA is gonna put CBTC on Astoria, they might as well put CBTC on Broadway as well and replace the r68's unless the MTA has a plan to retrofit the r68's for CBTC, which will also be a waste of money.

[R32 3838]

5 hours ago, R179 8258 said:

Honestly I think CBTC for Astoria is a waste because the Astoria Line is only from Queensboro to Astoria which is like 6 to 7 stops. If we want to go to the over crowding with Astoria , they can simple just add more trains pre hour on the  and  because the R211 order isn’t just for CBTC lines it’s also for fleet expansion      They might just have the R211 on the 8th/6th Ave lines. The  might get some split some R160 with  but the Coney Island will main have to deal with the R68/As until they’re retired and then the whole B Division we be all NTTs  

Yeah it's a waste but this is we are talking about here. It's from Ditmars to 57th and 7th ave. But It that project is far off anyway.

 

5 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

I say the B can't possibly join the D as being assigned to CCYD for Inspections and "Troubles".  That's because the barn has just 3 tracks and one of them has the wheel truing machine.  There simply wouldn't be enough space for all those cars.  CIYD has plenty of barn space to handle the B fleet.

Yeah, This is what i was thinking about. wants all the cbtc lines grouped but it wouldn't make sense to have the go to concourse and have R211's since they are brand new cars. It's better for the to use the R160's and stay at CIY instead.

[subwaycommuter1983]

8 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

Yeah it's a waste but this is we are talking about here. It's from Ditmars to 57th and 7th ave. But It that project is far off anyway.

 

Yeah, This is what i was thinking about. wants all the cbtc lines grouped but it wouldn't make sense to have the go to concourse and have R211's since they are brand new cars. It's better for the to use the R160's and stay at CIY instead.

Why not?? The W is also a part time line and had r160's for a long time, so I don't see an issue with the B getting r211's.

Whether it's r160's or r211's, the B needs NTTs and it needs to run 7 days a week from 5 am to 11 pm to boost service on Concourse and CPW. 

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Why not?? The W is also a part time line and had r160's for a long time, so I don't see an issue with the B getting r211's.

Whether it's r160's or r211's, the B needs NTTs and it needs to run 7 days a week from 5 am to 11 pm to boost service on Concourse and CPW. 

The got the R160's because of the swapping with the

 

The isn't going to run on weekends, As much as it would help CPW. The GO are going to get in the way of that plus you have to figure out funding.

 

The is still slated to get NTT's because of 8th ave CBTC and future 6th ave CBTC.

[CenSin]

22 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

Yeah it's a waste but this is we are talking about here. It's from Ditmars to 57th and 7th ave. But It that project is far off anyway.

I’m not understanding the logic where CBTC gets installed. Shouldn’t CBTC be installed around the choke point-heavy segment from 42 Street–Times Square to DeKalb Avenue where the junction is the key factor in train throughput? OR am I understanding the purpose of CBTC wrong?

[subwaycommuter1983]

5 hours ago, CenSin said:

I’m not understanding the logic where CBTC gets installed. Shouldn’t CBTC be installed around the choke point-heavy segment from 42 Street–Times Square to DeKalb Avenue where the junction is the key factor in train throughput? OR am I understanding the purpose of CBTC wrong?

The whole system needs CBTC. My main concern is that the MTA becomes biased and only installs CBTC on lines that serve good neighborhoods. If the MTA decides to install CBTC on Astoria, but decides NOT to install CBTC on 6th Avenue (which has more ridership than Astoria), they being biased. Keep in mind that riders in the Bronx and upper Manhattan pay the same fare as the people in Astoria.

The most logical thing that the MTA needs to do is to install CBTC on 6th Avenue right after 8th Avenue and to put NTTs on the B, D in addition to the A, C (unless the r68's can be retro fitted with CBTC, which is unlikely to happen) . This will avoid big headaches for straphangers in the future.

[rbrome]

The root of it is that, yes, the whole system needs it. The very piecemeal approach the MTA is taking is completely unlike how any other city has (or would) do this kind of upgrade. 

I get why... it's very expensive for them (some would say uniquely expensive). So they can't just do it all at once. A normal city would do it line-by-line, but one whole line at a time. But here, interlining is what makes CBTC much more urgent on just certain sections of most lines. 

My question is: isn't there a cost, in terms of operational efficiency, to having so many transition points between CBTC and non-CBTC signalling? What is the procedure, anyway? Does it slow things down at all when they do whatever they do to switch the train into, or out of, CBTC mode? 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It’s much easier to shut down an entire line when it’s completely self-contained, like the  and  are and like most other subway systems around the globe. Line length and location of the yard don’t even have to be a factor because the entire line doesn’t mix with any others (except maybe for non-revenue track connections, if any). But other than on the  and  in New York, they do play a factor. As does the mixing and matching of train routes all over the system, especially in the B-Division. Take the Queens Blvd Line for example. There’s no way they would have been able to shut down the whole stretch of that and continue to run ,  and  service on the portions of all three of those routes not located on Queens Blvd. 

[JeremiahC99]

Just now, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It’s much easier to shut down an entire line when it’s completely self-contained, like the  and  are and like most other subway systems around the globe. Line length and location of the yard don’t even have to be a factor because the entire line doesn’t mix with any others (except maybe for non-revenue track connections, if any). But other than on the  and  in New York, they do play a factor. As does the mixing and matching of train routes all over the system, especially in the B-Division. Take the Queens Blvd Line for example. There’s no way they would have been able to shut down the whole stretch of that and continue to run ,  and  service on the portions of all three of those routes not located on Queens Blvd. 

Could the same thing be said for shutting down a pair of tracks on a four track line (i.e, shut down the local tracks, build some barriers between local and express tracks and have the express tracks remain in operation?

[R32 3838]

On 5/8/2022 at 6:12 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The whole system needs CBTC. My main concern is that the MTA becomes biased and only installs CBTC on lines that serve good neighborhoods. If the MTA decides to install CBTC on Astoria, but decides NOT to install CBTC on 6th Avenue (which has more ridership than Astoria), they being biased. Keep in mind that riders in the Bronx and upper Manhattan pay the same fare as the people in Astoria.

The most logical thing that the MTA needs to do is to install CBTC on 6th Avenue right after 8th Avenue and to put NTTs on the B, D in addition to the A, C (unless the r68's can be retro fitted with CBTC, which is unlikely to happen) . This will avoid big headaches for straphangers in the future.

6th ave is being done before Astoria. By the time Astoria is done, we would be in the 2030's. I wish they can do the whole broadway but tech train availability would be an issue until the next new order after the r211's start coming in (   fleet, the would be stuck with the R68's.)

[CenSin]

17 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Could the same thing be said for shutting down a pair of tracks on a four track line (i.e, shut down the local tracks, build some barriers between local and express tracks and have the express tracks remain in operation?

With CBTC, I would say just shut down one half of the tunnel and take advantage of bidirectional operation to operate the remaining pair of tracks on one side of the tunnel as if it were just double-tracked. No need to make all trains express or all trains local when any track an operate trains in any direction.

The caveat is that the switches must be in place for that kind of operation. Queens Boulevard is full of them and the eastern stretch of Fulton Street, all of Culver, and Central Park West.

[darkstar8983]

On 5/5/2022 at 10:33 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I just hope that sending the B to Concourse will allow the B to run between Bedford Park and Brighton Beach from 5 am to 11pm Monday to Fridays and it will allow the B to run between Bedford Park and 2nd Ave/Houston from 5am to 11pm.

CPW and Concourse can really get a boost in off peak local service. Also, weekend track work on CPW doesn't happen too often.

I’ve always had the mentality that after 8 Av CBTC, 6 Av would follow, then Central Park West should come (even though it hasn’t been proposed), and then Fulton + Ctosstown. This way the entire IND from at least 168 St to Euclid Av, Bedford Park Blvd to Grand St, and the entirety of the  and  would be done.

 

but again there comes several problems 

- NTT subway car availability. The second 6th Av is proposed, the entire B division fleet HAS to be NTT (even Broadway Line cars) due to the intermingling of Broadway trains being rerouted to 6 Av, etc. Otherwise a single hiccup along Broadway and the entre system comes to a grinding halt because trains would have to be turned around in Brooklyn. The major terrorist incident that occurred a few weeks ago showed how flexible the subway can be in cases of reroutes, but that can’t be kept if the entire SMEE fleet isnt replaced before CBTC territories expand beyond 8 Av.

 

as to your idea of running the  weekends, don’t think it will be that easy. RIGHT NOW it seems there might be the weekend capacity, but soon more invasive GOs will start which will make it impossible to run the  outside its current service hours. More invasive track work on CPW, 8 Av line shutdowns, and of course, work in Brooklyn that forces 4 Av Express trains to go local, will force the  to either not run at all weekends, or be rerouted to 96 St-2 Av instead of going to 145 St. This is the problem when you have a system this size…constant construction in various sections of the line. This is the “justification” as to why the  doesn’t run on Queens Blvd, and why the ‘s service hours past Essex St have been cut back so much. In the first year of the  service to Queens Blvd and 6 Av, service ran to 71 Av until midnight, and if there was construction, service was provided at least to 47-50 Sts, terminating at the 57 St  station until midnight, until they just started cutting the 6 Av service provided to just the hours we see today ( 6AM to 9PM ). Even the expanded hours when the  is out have been cut. Before the  ran until 1 AM and every 8 minutes, and now only until just before midnight saturdays and until 8:45PM sundays every 15 minutes.

Edited May 11, 2022 by darkstar8983

[T to Dyre Avenue]

13 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

I’ve always had the mentality that after 8 Av CBTC, 6 Av would follow, then Central Park West should come (even though it hasn’t been proposed), and then Fulton + Ctosstown. This way the entire IND from at least 168 St to Euclid Av, Bedford Park Blvd to Grand St, and the entirety of the  and  would be done.

 

but again there comes several problems 

- NTT subway car availability. The second 6th Av is proposed, the entire B division fleet HAS to be NTT (even Broadway Line cars) due to the intermingling of Broadway trains being rerouted to 6 Av, etc. Otherwise a single hiccup along Broadway and the entre system comes to a grinding halt because trains would have to be turned around in Brooklyn. The major terrorist incident that occurred a few weeks ago showed how flexible the subway can be in cases of reroutes, but that can’t be kept if the entire SMEE fleet isnt replaced before CBTC territories expand beyond 8 Av.

 

as to your idea of running the  weekends, don’t think it will be that easy. RIGHT NOW it seems there might be the weekend capacity, but soon more invasive GOs will start which will make it impossible to run the  outside its current service hours. More invasive track work on CPW, 8 Av line shutdowns, and of course, work in Brooklyn that forces 4 Av Express trains to go local, will force the  to either not run at all weekends, or be rerouted to 96 St-2 Av instead of going to 145 St. This is the problem when you have a system this size…constant construction in various sections of the line. This is the “justification” as to why the  doesn’t run on Queens Blvd, and why the ‘s service hours past Essex St have been cut back so much. In the first year of the  service to Queens Blvd and 6 Av, service ran to 71 Av until midnight, and if there was construction, service was provided at least to 47-50 Sts, terminating at the 57 St  station until midnight, until they just started cutting the 6 Av service provided to just the hours we see today ( 6AM to 9PM ). Even the expanded hours when the  is out have been cut. Before the  ran until 1 AM and every 8 minutes, and now only until just before midnight saturdays and until 8:45PM sundays every 15 minutes.

And that’s why there need to be additional option orders to provide enough R211s or other NTTs to retire the R68 series, the oldest of which will be 40 years old (maybe older) by the time the base R211 order is fully in service. Because if the MTA are expecting to keep the R68 series in service well beyond 40 years, then they will have to run somewhere. As time goes on and more of the B-Division gets converted to CBTC, they’re going to run out of lines where they can operate SMEE-era trains. They’re already banned from the Eastern Division routes because of their length. It is my hope that by the time they get to upgrading the Broadway Line in Manhattan, they have enough NTT cars to run on the ,  and . 

As for the , the current service plan in South Brooklyn facilitates keeping the  out of service on weekends. A different service plan might require it to run. But right now, the MTA aren’t interested in changing the service pattern, though that might be worth looking at if it’s going to be quite some time before the R68 series are retired.

Edited May 12, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[darkstar8983]

5 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

And that’s why there need to be additional option orders to provide enough R211s or other NTTs to retire the R68 series, the oldest of which will be 40 years old (maybe older) by the time the base R211 order is fully in service. Because if the MTA are expecting to keep the R68 series in service well beyond 40 years, then they will have to run somewhere. As time goes on and more of the B-Division gets converted to CBTC, they’re going to run out of lines where they can operate SMEE-era trains. They’re already banned from the Eastern Division routes because of their length. It is my hope that by the time they get to upgrading the Broadway Line in Manhattan, they have enough NTT cars to run on the ,  and . 

Exactly my point but I think the subway car upgrade should happen by the time 6th Av is ready to be upgraded

[bobtehpanda]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:07 AM, CenSin said:

I’m not understanding the logic where CBTC gets installed. Shouldn’t CBTC be installed around the choke point-heavy segment from 42 Street–Times Square to DeKalb Avenue where the junction is the key factor in train throughput? OR am I understanding the purpose of CBTC wrong?

CBTC is the next generation of signaling technology. At this point it might be that they're triaging which parts of the system have the oldest, original signaling systems.

But really no one really installs new fixed-block if at all possible; CBTC means less wayside equipment as well.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

26 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

Exactly my point but I think the subway car upgrade should happen by the time 6th Av is ready to be upgraded

For sure. But I think there should be enough cars in at least one of the option orders that could be assigned to the  and , so 6th Ave should be taken care of. Broadway might be where we run into trouble given how much Broadway and 6th Ave trains interline with each other and how they often get rerouted on each other’s trunk lines in Manhattan. It’ll be a hell of a lot harder to keep them separated with SMEE cars still on the ,  and  and like you said, emergency and weekend reroutes become problems. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue