R211 Discussion Thread

[BreeddekalbL]

Just now, Vulturious said:

Good question. I mean it happened inside the train with people trapped in one car. Smoke grenade went off inside the car as well.

with gangways the jagoff could work fast 

[rbrome]

On 4/12/2022 at 2:11 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

Are we sure we still want to do gangways after what happened today?

Absolutely! People would have had somewhere to run to instead of everyone trapped in that one car. I've read reports about people desperately trying to get to other cars, but the end doors were locked. Open gangways would have helped. If I have to be trapped in a space with an active shooter, I'll take the space that's 5x larger with places to run to, thank you very much. That's a no-brainer for me. 

[BreeddekalbL]

38 minutes ago, rbrome said:

Absolutely! People would have had somewhere to run to instead of everyone trapped in that one car. I've read reports about people desperately trying to get to other cars, but the end doors were locked. Open gangways would have helped. If I have to be trapped in a space with an active shooter, I'll take the space that's 5x larger with places to run to, thank you very much. That's a no-brainer for me. 

But the thing is the shooter can still advance 

[VIP]

14 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

But the thing is the shooter can still advance 

Then the same thing can be said if it were an R143/160… not like these instances are common. 

[Bill from Maspeth]

19 minutes ago, VIP said:

Then the same thing can be said if it were an R143/160… not like these instances are common. 

Much quicker to advance in a gangway train vs. a train with storm doors.

[JeremiahC99]

1 minute ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Much quicker to advance in a gangway train vs. a train with storm doors.

But if the storm doors are locked, what good is it for passenger safety.

Ultimately it’s a bit of a trade off, since it’s there’s a benefit of extra capacity and the drawback of safety concerns. However issues like safety can be solved with more security and patrols on the train. Meanwhile for the extra capacity, there are instances where maximum train throughput is at capacity, and this is where the open gangway trains come into play.

I believe that it would be better to have open gangway trains in combination for more police patrol on the trains (though there should be officers on the trains already to begin with). Provided that the cops actually pay attention, this would allow for trains to see increased capacity and better safety as well.

[BreeddekalbL]

Better increase cops and I think I heard the 211s will have new cameras? 

[Around the Horn]

An open gangway train is much much easier for police officers to patrol thanks to the open sight lines throughout the whole set.

[CenSin]

7 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

An open gangway train is much much easier for police officers to patrol thanks to the open sight lines throughout the whole set.

When the train is straight, but since it's open, they can patrol the whole length of the train with few obstacles in the way.

[BenTheMiner]

21 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

But the thing is the shooter can still advance 

If the passenger can escape, the shooter will also be able to reach them. Still, I'd rather be able to run from someone.

Edited April 14, 2022 by BenTheMiner

[Lil 57]

15 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

An open gangway train is much much easier for police officers to patrol thanks to the open sight lines throughout the whole set.

Also since the T/O is in the first set while the C/O is usually in the second set of the train, you can easily get to a staff member on the train with an open gangway train.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

22 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Much quicker to advance in a gangway train vs. a train with storm doors.

But also harder to escape a train with storm doors. Only so many people can fit through the doorway at one time and really, who’s going to have time to think to hold open the door for the person behind them in the melee?

Definitely a case for open-gangway cars here.

Edited April 14, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[rbrome]

7 hours ago, BenTheMiner said:

... Still, I'd rather be able to run from someone.

Exactly. Given the choice, I'll take the larger space with more options. 

[Joel Powers]

On 4/13/2022 at 5:42 PM, rbrome said:

Absolutely! People would have had somewhere to run to instead of everyone trapped in that one car. I've read reports about people desperately trying to get to other cars, but the end doors were locked. Open gangways would have helped. If I have to be trapped in a space with an active shooter, I'll take the space that's 5x larger with places to run to, thank you very much. That's a no-brainer for me. 

Makes you wonder if this event pretty much caused the R211Ts to be Greenlit behind the scenes. I wouldn't be surprised if they include extra cars, possibly more options to get rid of the R68/R68A fleets as well.

[LGA Link N Train]

2 hours ago, Joel Powers said:

Makes you wonder if this event pretty much caused the R211Ts to be Greenlit behind the scenes. I wouldn't be surprised if they include extra cars, possibly more options to get rid of the R68/R68A fleets as well.

Right now the base order is 535 R-211 Cars. Minus the 75 that are for Staten Island, 460 Railcars (46 Trains) is enough to replace 207th/Pitkin's Fleet of R-46's

Option 1 includes 640 Cars. (64 Trains) that on top of the 460 NYCT R-211 Railcars total up to 1,100 Railcars. There are currently 748 R-46 Railcars in service so this would be more than enough to phase out the 46 fleet plus introduce a minor fleet expansion. 

Option 2 includes 437 Railcars (89 Sets). This seems to indicate that there will be 4 Car sets included in this order. This part of the 211 order seems to indicate that it'll just be a fleet expansion unless (being ) decides to use this order as a chance to phase out the worst performing R-68/68A's. Not gonna speculate what will go where but with 8th Avenue CBTC being underway, it isn't hard to piece the puzzle pieces together.

https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-09/MTA 2020-2024 Capital Program - Full Report.pdf - Page 187 on the PDF
http://web.mta.info/nyct/procure/contracts/247471sol.pdf

As for wether or not the 211T's have been greenlit behind the scenes or not, doesn't make too much of a difference to me as long as I get from Point A to Point B to the end of the day. With regards to the incident that happened a few days ago, wouldn't be unreasonable to have Open Gangways for safety reasons.

[subwaycommuter1983]

13 hours ago, Joel Powers said:

Makes you wonder if this event pretty much caused the R211Ts to be Greenlit behind the scenes. I wouldn't be surprised if they include extra cars, possibly more options to get rid of the R68/R68A fleets as well.

It would make more sense for the MTA to add a 3rd option order for the r211's than to do a separate order to retire the r68's.

Look at the mess the MTA made with the r179's. If the MTA would have added a 3rd option order for the r160's, they would have avoided all the delays and headaches caused by the r179's and the r32's would have been retired sooner.

I honestly don't think it is a good idea for storm doors to be locked after last Tuesday's shooting and the MTA should not wait until 2030 to retire the r68's. The MTA is already behind schedule with the r62's. The order for r262's should have been included in this capital program.

At least the r211's include cameras and the MTA needs to retrofit all other NTTs with cameras.

Edited April 16, 2022 by subwaycommuter1983

[LGA Link N Train]

18 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I honestly don't think it is a good idea for storm doors to be locked after last Tuesday's shooting and the MTA should not wait until 2030 to retire the r68's. The MTA is already behind schedule with the r62's. The order for r262's should have been included in this capital program.

Just with the 2nd Option order alone is enough to replace either a majority of the 68 Fleet or the entirety of the 68A fleet. Or half of both combined. 

[Joel Powers]

12 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

It would make more sense for the MTA to add a 3rd option order for the r211's than to do a separate order to retire the r68's.

Look at the mess the MTA made with the r179's. If the MTA would have added a 3rd option order for the r160's, they would have avoided all the delays and headaches caused by the r179's and the r32's would have been retired sooner.

I honestly don't think it is a good idea for storm doors to be locked after last Tuesday's shooting and the MTA should not wait until 2030 to retire the r68's. The MTA is already behind schedule with the r62's. The order for r262's should have been included in this capital program.

At least the r211's include cameras and the MTA needs to retrofit all other NTTs with cameras.

Agreed, I always looked at the R179s as an add on to the R160s anyway. But yes, they do need to add more cars to take out the R68/R68As too as it's only another 630 or so cars to procure. Wouldn't make much sense to place a totally new order of say....., R-246s just for it to only be 630 or so new cars by 2029. Just retire them all now within the next few years and then the T/A wouldn't really have to worry about retiring anymore BMT/IND stock until 2040 or so.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It’ll probably be well into the 2030s by the time those options R211s come online anyway. The newest R68As will be over 40 years old by then.

[Daniel The Cool]

On 4/15/2022 at 1:16 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Right now the base order is 535 R-211 Cars. Minus the 75 that are for Staten Island, 460 Railcars (46 Trains) is enough to replace 207th/Pitkin's Fleet of R-46's
 

Actually you need over 500 R211s to replaced 207th/Pitkin's R46s.

[Joel Powers]

15 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It’ll probably be well into the 2030s by the time those options R211s come online anyway. The newest R68As will be over 40 years old by then.

It shouldn't take that long. If the MTA actually do this and place an extra option fast enough, they can have all sets in by 2029.

[2 Train Master]

I hope this is a very large order(meaning) not just to replace the R-46's but to replace ALL R68/A Series. It would be financially cheaper to have a large order now than have a separate order 5 years later to replace the 68's which are nearing 40 years old.

 

As far as the cameras on the subway its 2022, cameras are nearly everywhere in 1st world countries. A camera is not going to deter someone with bad intentions to not carryout those intentions regardless where they are located in the world. 

 

I hope transit learns from the R-160 order, that should had been a larger order as well however due to the R-44's safety structural concern 32's and 42's were forced to labor an additional decade and a half.

[Joel Powers]

2 hours ago, 2 Train Master said:

I hope this is a very large order(meaning) not just to replace the R-46's but to replace ALL R68/A Series. It would be financially cheaper to have a large order now than have a separate order 5 years later to replace the 68's which are nearing 40 years old.

 

As far as the cameras on the subway its 2022, cameras are nearly everywhere in 1st world countries. A camera is not going to deter someone with bad intentions to not carryout those intentions regardless where they are located in the world. 

 

I hope transit learns from the R-160 order, that should had been a larger order as well however due to the R-44's safety structural concern 32's and 42's were forced to labor an additional decade and a half.

Well, they are also replacing all the remaining R44s as well.

[Trainmaster5]

3 hours ago, 2 Train Master said:

I hope this is a very large order(meaning) not just to replace the R-46's but to replace ALL R68/A Series. It would be financially cheaper to have a large order now than have a separate order 5 years later to replace the 68's which are nearing 40 years old.

 

As far as the cameras on the subway its 2022, cameras are nearly everywhere in 1st world countries. A camera is not going to deter someone with bad intentions to not carryout those intentions regardless where they are located in the world. 

 

 

Your second paragraph is spot on. A camera is good for identifying a perpetrator after a crime or people who might be assembling prior to committing a crime. Law enforcement personnel on the scene is a better deterrent. Problem is that you have to pay those people. Look no further than the red light camera program. Cost benefits.

As to your first point. The  doesn’t want to place large orders for equipment with any one manufacturer. Any delays or faulty equipment leaves them high and dry. Remember the faulty trucks on the subway cars or the Grumman Flxible bus fiasco ? Relying on a sole source is really rolling the dice, IMO. My opinion. Carry on.

[Joel Powers]

25 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Your second paragraph is spot on. A camera is good for identifying a perpetrator after a crime or people who might be assembling prior to committing a crime. Law enforcement personnel on the scene is a better deterrent. Problem is that you have to pay those people. Look no further than the red light camera program. Cost benefits.

As to your first point. The  doesn’t want to place large orders for equipment with any one manufacturer. Any delays or faulty equipment leaves them high and dry. Remember the faulty trucks on the subway cars or the Grumman Flxible bus fiasco ? Relying on a sole source is really rolling the dice, IMO. My opinion. Carry on.

Which is why in 2011 after nearly a decade of purchasing buses from only Orion and MCI, the MTA started the BTE bus program. They were able to evaluate what buses can handle which areas and levels of passenger traffic.  New Flyer was able to regain it's footing with the MTA after their 2004 fallout and Novabus was also able to make a comeback since they were gone from the Big Apple since 2001 at that point. It is for that reason how today, the fleet is nearly half and half Xcelsior/LFS and their variants today for new buses purchases with the remaining 1000+ or so Orion 7s making up the majority of legacy fleet for the local buses.