R211 Discussion Thread

[Bill from Maspeth]

6 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

CBTC cannot provide better service in ANY corridor until the entire line is upgraded. Meaning Queens Blvd CBTC cannot provide better service to the until

1.  - 8th Av is finished

2. - 63 St / 6 Av, and Culver/Crosstown is finished

3. - 6th Av, Broadway Brooklyn, and Myrtle Av is finished

4.  - Broadway and 4th Av are finished

 

Because until this is done, what happens is that you have CBTC routes running in non-CBTC territories and subjected to the  delays of intermingling with non-CBTC trains. In other words, we are screwed until the entire B Division is finished because of the interlining between 8th Av, 6th Av, and Broadway trains.

I think you are missing my point.  There are more delays than ever due to CBTC failures on the Queens Blvd. IND since that signaling system has taken over despite lots of testing beforehand.  As more CBTC is installed, there will be many more failures.  With the traditional signaling, 1 or 2 signals may go bad.  When CBTC fails, it fails over a very large area.

[darkstar8983]

12 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

I think you are missing my point.  There are more delays than ever due to CBTC failures on the Queens Blvd. IND since that signaling system has taken over despite lots of testing beforehand.  As more CBTC is installed, there will be many more failures.  With the traditional signaling, 1 or 2 signals may go bad.  When CBTC fails, it fails over a very large area.

That is true. Like all the incidents that have been happening at least in the zone between Roosevelt and 71 Av. Then the trains can’t even enter queens, leaving the  and  terminating at either 96 St or 21 St Queebsbridge, and the  rerouted to 168 St, with the  cut back to Essex. And this is considering the trains not stuck in the conga line of trains that can’t move because they passed the corresponding interlocking 

Edited May 24, 2022 by darkstar8983

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 5/13/2022 at 6:02 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

our neighbors to the south in Washington DC would like a word with you in terms of a big order

And I'd like a word with them about retiring trains that were in service less than 20 years...

WMATA 5000 series cars

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[jukeboxboy]

Speaking of the R211S trains, what is interesting is that if they're all replacing all 64 R44's (15 trains), Staten Island Railway would get the same amount of trains suppose that every R211S train is a five-car set (75 cars in total).

[subwaycommuter1983]

10 hours ago, jukeboxboy said:

Speaking of the R211S trains, what is interesting is that if they're all replacing all 64 R44's (15 trains), Staten Island Railway would get the same amount of trains suppose that every R211S train is a five-car set (75 cars in total).

It would be great if the MTA could purchase additional r211S's for IBX. A subway can't be built there because it shares tracks with freight trains. However, something similar to SIR would be the best option for IBX, since SIR it's a railroad that uses subway cars and most importantly it will allow the fares to be the same as the subway and bus, with free transfers between IBX and subway/bus.

Commuter rails are too expensive in NYC ($18 round trip during rush hours). BRT is a huge NO NO. As for a light rail, I feel like it should be built in other parts of the city, such as the Bronx and Staten Island, which has more transit deserts.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

It would be great if the MTA could purchase additional r211S's for IBX. A subway can't be built there because it shares tracks with freight trains. However, something similar to SIR would be the best option for IBX, since SIR it's a railroad that uses subway cars and most importantly it will allow the fares to be the same as the subway and bus, with free transfers between IBX and subway/bus.

Commuter rails are too expensive in NYC ($18 round trip during rush hours). BRT is a huge NO NO. As for a light rail, I feel like it should be built in other parts of the city, such as the Bronx and Staten Island, which has more transit deserts.

The loading gauge would still cause conflicts.

[Storm]

Hopefully they can fix DeKalb Junction because it's total mayhem right now.

Here are my R211 Assignments after 1 year:

Base order

: 440 cars-Equipped w CBTC

Option order #1

: 400 cars

: 200 cars

Option order #2
: 200 cars

: 200 cars

 

Here are the complete assignments of the affected lines: (both options)
: Fully R211- runs in 10 car sets 

: Mostly R211 with a few R68s lingering

: R179s displaced 

: Either they will get R211s and displace them to coney, or coney will get R211s.

: R211/R160 with some R68/As

: R211/R68/A

One option:

 : Fully R211- runs in 10 car sets

 : Mostly R211 with some R68s

 : R179s displaced 

 65% NTT and 35% R68/A

 Fully R68/A

[Storm]

On 5/11/2022 at 10:30 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

That is the smartest thing thing that the MTA should. Look at all the headaches A, C, riders had to endure due to all the issues created by the r179's. These headaches would have been avoided if the MTA had added another option order for the r160's.

The MTA cannot continue to make these mistakes. They are already behind with the r262's.

If the MTA makes the dumb decision to do a separate car order for the r68's, then that means that this car order will be included in the 2025-2030 capital program, which means that these new trains won't be in  service until at least 2030. Whereas an additional option order of r211's would be in service sooner.

As stupid as it sounds,

The  plans to refurbish the R62/A's with R142 signage, and retrofit it with CBTC

[Storm]

On 5/7/2022 at 8:22 AM, R179 8258 said:

Honestly I think CBTC for Astoria is a waste because the Astoria Line is only from Queensboro to Astoria which is like 6 to 7 stops. If we want to go to the over crowding with Astoria , they can simple just add more trains pre hour on the  and  because the R211 order isn’t just for CBTC lines it’s also for fleet expansion      They might just have the R211 on the 8th/6th Ave lines. The  might get some split some R160 with  but the Coney Island will main have to deal with the R68/As until they’re retired and then the whole B Division we be all NTTs  

No, The  will get NTTs by the time Astoria CBTC is finished (before the R268 order is made)

[Storm]

On 5/3/2022 at 11:17 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The NQW will not get CBTC any time soon. Therefore, the r68's will replace the r46 on the NQW. The B and D will get NTT's due to the fact that both lines get rerouted through 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue will get CBTC as well. There is no point of putting NTTs on lines that are not getting CBTC.

I agree, until the  (Astoria) gets CBTC

[trainfan22]

6 minutes ago, Storm said:

As stupid as it sounds,

The  plans to refurbish the R62/A's with R142 signage, and retrofit it with CBTC

Source? I highly doubt this as the TA already has car class in the works to replace the 62/62A (R262)

[Storm]

5 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

Source? I highly doubt this as the TA already has car class in the works to replace the 62/62A (R262)

The  is under-budget, as funding has always been an issue. Earlier, the  had planned to do this, but as you know with the , they are terrible at making decisions, so I might be wrong. 

[trainfan22]

1 hour ago, Storm said:

The  is under-budget, as funding has always been an issue. Earlier, the  had planned to do this, but as you know with the , they are terrible at making decisions, so I might be wrong. 

If the MTA doesn't have the money for the R62/A replacements, they would simply keep the wayside signals and keep the R62s they way they are now.

 

 

Rebuilding the 62s with digital signage and to be CBTC compatible would cost as much as buying an brand new train. 

[Storm]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:59 PM, Eric B said:

I see them more likely sending 22's to and then sending the 160's to  (whch will be sufficient for the CBTC), and the 68's then on  (Unless they decide to give the  something new in almost 40 years, and put some 211's there, and keep more 160's in Queens).

Remember, it's not good to have a yard with all of one car fleet.

Like, if the  had gotten 100% R211s, and they had to take the R211s out of service because of bad performance, there would be a car shortage, and there would be hell to pay. That's why you have to mix the fleets.

[VIP]

6 minutes ago, Storm said:

Remember, it's not good to have a yard with all of one car fleet.

Like, if the  had gotten 100% R211s, and they had to take the R211s out of service because of bad performance, there would be a car shortage, and there would be hell to pay. That's why you have to mix the fleets.

I’m not gonna even begin to rip this post apart…

[trainfan22]

1 hour ago, Storm said:

Remember, it's not good to have a yard with all of one car fleet.

Like, if the  had gotten 100% R211s, and they had to take the R211s out of service because of bad performance, there would be a car shortage, and there would be hell to pay. That's why you have to mix the fleets.

All of the IRT yards except for the have one car class and things are just fine. Concourse and Jamaica in the B div have one car class, no problems.

 

Regularly, one set from both the SMEE and NTT car classes get removed from service due to mechanical problems and only that ONE consist gets shopped, not the entire fleet. Every yard has spare trains to replace an defective train.

Edited May 27, 2022 by trainfan22

[subwaycommuter1983]

3 hours ago, Storm said:

Remember, it's not good to have a yard with all of one car fleet.

Like, if the  had gotten 100% R211s, and they had to take the R211s out of service because of bad performance, there would be a car shortage, and there would be hell to pay. That's why you have to mix the fleets.

Concourse can only handle one fleet. Notice that the D never had mixed fleet.

[trainfan22]

1 hour ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Concourse can only handle one fleet. Notice that the D never had mixed fleet.

It never had a mixed fleet in the last 30 years or so, but it did prior to the R68s coming there.

 

 

IIRC the had R32s & R42s at the same time with some R40Ms. It also had Arnines and R32s at the same time.

[Bill from Maspeth]

11 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

It never had a mixed fleet in the last 30 years or so, but it did prior to the R68s coming there.

 

 

IIRC the had R32s & R42s at the same time with some R40Ms. It also had Arnines and R32s at the same time.

In those days CIYD inspected the D line fleet.  CCYD simply did trouble cars, wheel truing and overflow of IRT cars.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

22 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

If the MTA doesn't have the money for the R62/A replacements, they would simply keep the wayside signals and keep the R62s they way they are now.

 

 

Rebuilding the 62s with digital signage and to be CBTC compatible would cost as much as buying an brand new train.

And the  already ruled that out as not being cost-effective before they started the CBTC project on the  line. They’d be contradicting themselves if they chose to rebuild the 62s now. Plus if they’re going to go through all that expense and effort, then they should be expected to last in service for some time.

On 5/27/2022 at 2:14 PM, Lex said:

The loading gauge would still cause conflicts.

How so? Many types of freight cars are the same dimensions as your typical B-Division subway car. CSX has a webpage with the dimensions of various freight cars they use on their trains here:

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/resources/equipment/railroad-equipment/
 

None appear to be wider than 10 feet. Surely, a rail car with the R211s can be built to FRA standards, no? Also, the  wants to keep the IBX on separate tracks from freight as much as they can, including station locations. Now, it’s possible that there will be segments of the IBX route where the most effective place to put a station will be where there’s not enough room for more than two tracks and freight trains will have to pass through IBX stations. But I don’t think that’s necessarily a dealbreaker for 60-foot IBX trains.

On 5/3/2022 at 11:17 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The NQW will not get CBTC any time soon. Therefore, the r68's will replace the r46 on the NQW. The B and D will get NTT's due to the fact that both lines get rerouted through 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue will get CBTC as well. There is no point of putting NTTs on lines that are not getting CBTC.

I can certainly see that happening, especially if both the R211 and CBTC projects go way over budget. Given that the  has the world’s worst bean counters (cut corners at the start to look like they’re saving money, then go way over budget in the end), that is a possibility. But if that happens, then the R68s have to be restricted to the  and  services. There would be nowhere else for them to run. But they should at least try to figure out a way to refit the R68 series trains with digital destination signs, so we don’t have  and  trains signed incorrectly or  trains still showing 57th and 7th as their last stop.

Edited May 28, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Lex]

13 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

How so? Many types of freight cars are the same dimensions as your typical B-Division subway car. CSX has a webpage with the dimensions of various freight cars they use on their trains here:

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/resources/equipment/railroad-equipment/
 

None appear to be wider than 10 feet. Surely, a rail car with the R211s can be built to FRA standards, no? Also, the  wants to keep the IBX on separate tracks from freight as much as they can, including station locations. Now, it’s possible that there will be segments of the IBX route where the most effective place to put a station will be where there’s not enough room for more than two tracks and freight trains will have to pass through IBX stations. But I don’t think that’s necessarily a dealbreaker for 60-foot IBX trains.

Did you check the exterior dimensions?

[Storm]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:32 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

And the  already ruled that out as not being cost-effective before they started the CBTC project on the  line. They’d be contradicting themselves if they chose to rebuild the 62s now. Plus if they’re going to go through all that expense and effort, then they should be expected to last in service for some time.

How so? Many types of freight cars are the same dimensions as your typical B-Division subway car. CSX has a webpage with the dimensions of various freight cars they use on their trains here:

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/resources/equipment/railroad-equipment/
 

None appear to be wider than 10 feet. Surely, a rail car with the R211s can be built to FRA standards, no? Also, the  wants to keep the IBX on separate tracks from freight as much as they can, including station locations. Now, it’s possible that there will be segments of the IBX route where the most effective place to put a station will be where there’s not enough room for more than two tracks and freight trains will have to pass through IBX stations. But I don’t think that’s necessarily a dealbreaker for 60-foot IBX trains.

I can certainly see that happening, especially if both the R211 and CBTC projects go way over budget. Given that the  has the world’s worst bean counters (cut corners at the start to look like they’re saving money, then go way over budget in the end), that is a possibility. But if that happens, then the R68s have to be restricted to the  and  services. There would be nowhere else for them to run. But they should at least try to figure out a way to refit the R68 series trains with digital destination signs, so we don’t have  and  trains signed incorrectly or  trains still showing 57th and 7th as their last stop.

See, the  is trying to retire the R68s+62s as fast as possible to prepare for full completion of CBTC. It wouldn’t make sense to literally re-do the R68s, when we can just order more r211 cars/a new model to replace them.

The  are last in line for NTT’s, and new type cars. They will be stuck with the R68s until they get replaced. The  will most likely be the last line with r68s, after the  gets NTTs for Astoria CBTC. 

It just wouldn’t make sense to redo a car.

 

[darkstar8983]

On 5/31/2022 at 12:52 PM, Storm said:

See, the  is trying to retire the R68s+62s as fast as possible to prepare for full completion of CBTC. It wouldn’t make sense to literally re-do the R68s, when we can just order more r211 cars/a new model to replace them.

The  are last in line for NTT’s, and new type cars. They will be stuck with the R68s until they get replaced. The  will most likely be the last line with r68s, after the  gets NTTs for Astoria CBTC. 

It just wouldn’t make sense to redo a car.

 

Its going to be an operations nightmare at Ditmars Blvd, and to a lesser extent the Broadway Line for the  unless the following adjustments are made:

1. Option orders of R211s to ensure Astoria becomes an NTT terminal again (maybe a FEW R68s if the MTA is too cheap again), but definitely cannot have a FULL R68 fleet.

2. Eliminate the  again, leaving Astoria with just the  (no more rollsign issues - just south destination issues in case there are short-turn rush hour trips, but this roll sign error is also seen on the  and  too and the MTA doesn't seem to care.)

3. Set all R68/R68A. cars to display one Roll-sign route for the  and one for the  in each car and make sure the PA systems are working, and alternate cars. Example:

Car 1: Left side displays  route, while right side displays .

Car 2: Left side displays  route, while right side displays .

***Alternate until the end of the train. Just make sure that the front and back roll signs are set to the correct route (which would require lots of checking and PA/radio communications when trains pull into Astoria). Lots of mislabeled trains since the  /  lost their R160s. 

 

 

I mention operations nightmare for Broadway in Manhattan because now the Times Square signal tower has to make sure the trains headed to Astoria go UPTOWN in the proper scheduled order to prevent train change-overs at Ditmars Blvd. Before, with the R160s, it didn't matter, because it was about keeping service flowing and Ditmars Blvd could just do the swaps of trains arriving as  and departing as s and vice-versa, similar to how Flatbush Av assigns a track for departing  and  trains, yet NOT caring which track a train pulls into.

Edited June 1, 2022 by darkstar8983

[FLX9304]

On 5/27/2022 at 3:29 PM, Storm said:

Hopefully they can fix DeKalb Junction because it's total mayhem right now.

Here are my R211 Assignments after 1 year:

Base order

: 440 cars-Equipped w CBTC

Option order #1

: 400 cars

: 200 cars

Option order #2
: 200 cars

: 200 cars

 

Here are the complete assignments of the affected lines: (both options)
: Fully R211- runs in 10 car sets 

: Mostly R211 with a few R68s lingering

: R179s displaced 

: Either they will get R211s and displace them to coney, or coney will get R211s.

: R211/R160 with some R68/As

: R211/R68/A

One option:

 : Fully R211- runs in 10 car sets

 : Mostly R211 with some R68s

 : R179s displaced 

 65% NTT and 35% R68/A

 Fully R68/A

You’re forgetting on which line gets the R211T- the articulated cars. 

[Around the Horn]

The R211 is currently out signed up on the line as we speak, I assume doing burn in, simulated stop testing.