R211 Discussion Thread

[Q44 SBS]

Credit to DP Transit, Jon Railz, and TheTransitProductions respectively.

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Q44 SBS

[R32 3838]

On 5/27/2022 at 3:29 PM, Storm said:

Hopefully they can fix DeKalb Junction because it's total mayhem right now.

Here are my R211 Assignments after 1 year:

Base order

: 440 cars-Equipped w CBTC

Option order #1

: 400 cars

: 200 cars

Option order #2
: 200 cars

: 200 cars

 

Here are the complete assignments of the affected lines: (both options)
: Fully R211- runs in 10 car sets 

: Mostly R211 with a few R68s lingering

: R179s displaced 

: Either they will get R211s and displace them to coney, or coney will get R211s.

: R211/R160 with some R68/As

: R211/R68/A

One option:

 : Fully R211- runs in 10 car sets

 : Mostly R211 with some R68s

 : R179s displaced 

 65% NTT and 35% R68/A

 Fully R68/A

 

Again, The isn't getting R179's. The is back at Jamaica Yard and Jamaica yard isn't getting the R179's. The R179's would stay where they are. The Only R179's I see moving are the 130 10 car units to 207th st to push out the 8 car units back to ENY. Thus Pushing out the R160's for 8 car service. By then the R179's should have CBTC in them meaning the could use the R179's. This would allow the R179's to be at 2 yards instead of 3.

CI isn't slated to get these cars, The will stay at CIY and would probably be R160's since it's a part time line. Those R160's if they get 580 back would be shared with the with only a few R68's being on those lines with the being all R68's.

 

is likely to get a chunk of this order to prepare for future CBTC.

 

has to be fully tech by 2026 at the latest

 

Jamaica would get a piece of this order due to the fact these cars would have open gangways (if they go through with it) and larger doors. These would be mainly for the

 

The lines aren't the priority for tech trains right now as the IND lines are the main focus. Astoria CBTC has been brought back on board so it's possible that the R160's would be shared with the   but by the time Astoria CBTC is completed, The newest order of cars will likely be in service by then.

 

 

 

 

 

[subwaycommuter1983]

8 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

Again, The isn't getting R179's. The is back at Jamaica Yard and Jamaica yard isn't getting the R179's. The R179's would stay where they are. The Only R179's I see moving are the 130 10 car units to 207th st to push out the 8 car units back to ENY. Thus Pushing out the R160's for 8 car service. By then the R179's should have CBTC in them meaning the could use the R179's. This would allow the R179's to be at 2 yards instead of 3.

CI isn't slated to get these cars, The will stay at CIY and would probably be R160's since it's a part time line. Those R160's if they get 580 back would be shared with the with only a few R68's being on those lines with the being all R68's.

 

is likely to get a chunk of this order to prepare for future CBTC.

 

has to be fully tech by 2026 at the latest

 

Jamaica would get a piece of this order due to the fact these cars would have open gangways (if they go through with it) and larger doors. These would be mainly for the

 

The lines aren't the priority for tech trains right now as the IND lines are the main focus. Astoria CBTC has been brought back on board so it's possible that the R160's would be shared with the   but by the time Astoria CBTC is completed, The newest order of cars will likely be in service by then.

 

 

 

 

 

It makes huge sense for the E/F trains to get all the open gangway trains because they have the highest ridership in the system. 

Folks need to stop being so defensive about Jamaica keeping all the r160's. You guys are not thinking about ridership. Yes, Jamaica needs all the r160's now because of Queens Blvd CBTC, but by the time all the r211's are in service and CBTC is installed in 8th and 6th Avenue, Jamaica can let go of some of the r160's in exchange for the open gangway trains.

It is pointless to put open gangway trains on lines that are barely crowded like the C. The C will do fine with standard full length trains.

[Storm]

19 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

You’re forgetting on which line gets the R211T- the articulated cars. 

The R211T’s would be the 235 cars sent to Jamaica.

[Storm]

Also, I’m pretty sure Astoria CBTC will be compatible with the r211s, but this was said in a board meeting a long time ago (2021) so I’m not sure if anything has changed or not.

[Storm]

20 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Its going to be an operations nightmare at Ditmars Blvd, and to a lesser extent the Broadway Line for the  unless the following adjustments are made:

1. Option orders of R211s to ensure Astoria becomes an NTT terminal again (maybe a FEW R68s if the MTA is too cheap again), but definitely cannot have a FULL R68 fleet.

2. Eliminate the  again, leaving Astoria with just the  (no more rollsign issues - just south destination issues in case there are short-turn rush hour trips, but this roll sign error is also seen on the  and  too and the MTA doesn't seem to care.)

3. Set all R68/R68A. cars to display one Roll-sign route for the  and one for the  in each car and make sure the PA systems are working, and alternate cars. Example:

Car 1: Left side displays  route, while right side displays .

Car 2: Left side displays  route, while right side displays .

***Alternate until the end of the train. Just make sure that the front and back roll signs are set to the correct route (which would require lots of checking and PA/radio communications when trains pull into Astoria). Lots of mislabeled trains since the  /  lost their R160s. 

 

 

I mention operations nightmare for Broadway in Manhattan because now the Times Square signal tower has to make sure the trains headed to Astoria go UPTOWN in the proper scheduled order to prevent train change-overs at Ditmars Blvd. Before, with the R160s, it didn't matter, because it was about keeping service flowing and Ditmars Blvd could just do the swaps of trains arriving as  and departing as s and vice-versa, similar to how Flatbush Av assigns a track for departing  and  trains, yet NOT caring which track a train pulls into.

As for pt #2, completely understand, alas we have the greedy Astoria residents who feel so special as to have 2 lines on their trunk instead of one, when 96th so obviously needs another line This is why we need to deinterline.

[R32 3838]

20 minutes ago, Storm said:

Also, I’m pretty sure Astoria CBTC will be compatible with the r211s, but this was said in a board meeting a long time ago (2021) so I’m not sure if anything has changed or not.

R160's 8377 to 8612,8653-9942, R179s and R211's CBTC will be compatible with all upcoming and existing CBTC lines except the line.

 

 

[subwaycommuter1983]

The N/W are not the only lines that have roll sign issues. The B also suffer from roll sign issues as well.

This is why I think the B needs to move to Concourse, (which is still on the table) and run between Bedford Park and Brighton Beach from 5am to 11pm Monday to Friday.

For those who want the B to stay at CIY, I encourage you to take a trip to the Bronx and Upper Manhattan, so that you can see how horrible are the frequencies along Concourse and CPW, especially during off peak hours. Both sections need 2 lines during peak and off peak.

Edited June 2, 2022 by subwaycommuter1983

[Bill from Maspeth]

2 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The N/W are not the only lines that have roll sign issues. The B also suffer from roll sign issues as well.

This is why I think the B needs to move to Concourse, (which is still on the table) and run between Bedford Park and Brighton Beach from 5am to 11pm Monday to Friday.

For those who want the B to stay at CIY, I encourage you to take a trip to the Bronx and Upper Manhattan, so that you can see how horrible are the frequencies along Concourse and CPW, especially during off peak hours. Both sections need 2 lines during peak and off peak.

There is ZERO relationship to which yard a line is assigned to (in this case the B) to the frequencies on the line.  Operations Planning, who makes up the schedules, couldn't care less which yard any line is assigned to.  Frequencies are figured out by budgets, merges with other lines and ridership.  Operations Planning takes their orders from "The Ivory Tower".  Furthermore, CCYD, as I mentioned some time ago, only has 3 barn tracks, one of which is the wheel truing machine.  The other 2 tracks which could hold 1 train on each track would not be enough for inspections and trouble cars for both the B and D lines.  Therefore, the B will continue to be assigned to CIYD.  There simply isn't the capacity in CCYD to handle both the B and D based on the size of the barn.  As it is, the D line equipment can barely fit in that barn.

[Amiri the subway guy]

I’m working on a R220 train car concept art that would totally replace the R68s. But realistic the R211s must get extra orders. To get rid of all R68/As they gotta go. 

[jon2305]

Why are their some folks so EAGER to get "rid" of the R68/As, so soon I might add. Those trains will be gone eventually but some people need to really get a grip. SMH It's just a train.

Edited June 3, 2022 by jon2305

[Via Garibaldi 8]

25 minutes ago, jon2305 said:

Why are their some folks so EAGER to get "rid" of the R68/As, so soon I might add. Those trains will be gone eventually but some people need to really get a grip. SMH It's just a train.

If those are the trains that run on the and  lines, from a commuting standpoint, I hate them. There is only AC towards the center of the train.  That enough annoys me. The lighting also sucks and the layout is just poor when it's crowded. They also make this annoying beeping noise that seems incessant.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[subwaycommuter1983]

20 minutes ago, jon2305 said:

Why are their some folks so EAGER to get "rid" of the R68/As, so soon I might add. Those trains will be gone eventually but some people need to really get a grip. SMH It's just a train.

If it weren't for CBTC, the r68's and r62's (A division) can go a few years beyond 2030.

But with CBTC being installed on 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue and other parts of the B division, then the r68's won't be able to run on CBTC sections of the subway. That's why the B/D will get NTT's after the A/C.

[Storm]

42 minutes ago, jon2305 said:

Why are their some folks so EAGER to get "rid" of the R68/As, so soon I might add. Those trains will be gone eventually but some people need to really get a grip. SMH It's just a train.

See, what you have to understand is, the MTA wants to retire all the r46s, 62s, and 68s ASAP because of their goal of getting the full fleet to a millennium fleet (2000+), and install CBTC in the full system.

[Storm]

6 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The N/W are not the only lines that have roll sign issues. The B also suffer from roll sign issues as well.

This is why I think the B needs to move to Concourse, (which is still on the table) and run between Bedford Park and Brighton Beach from 5am to 11pm Monday to Friday.

For those who want the B to stay at CIY, I encourage you to take a trip to the Bronx and Upper Manhattan, so that you can see how horrible are the frequencies along Concourse and CPW, especially during off peak hours. Both sections need 2 lines during peak and off peak.

In all honesty, you are kind of right. The N/W will different problems if it goes to full r46s.

Imagine being a conductor/TO having to switch rollsigns on TWO different sides of an 8 car train, plus an extra 2 rollsigns for the front and back of the train, and additionally check if the train has any hazards and any issues all in a 7 minute timeframe.

That’s different from the B/D, as they don’t frequently switch with each other.

[jon2305]

47 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If those are the trains that run on the and  lines, from a commuting standpoint, I hate them. There is only AC towards the center of the train.  That enough annoys me. The lighting also sucks and the layout is just poor when it's crowded. They also make this annoying beeping noise that seems incessant.

I know what you mean in terms of the AC. Luckily with those trains I've never been in a hot R68/As car during the summer, however in the case with the R62As it's a different story. Alot of times I could not bare with the R62As lack of AC or even how dirty and disgusting they look on the these days. I've lived by the for majority of my life and I do say that its time for change. As of late the R62As have been a eyesore for me, but that being said I still ride'em for personal/professional purposes regardless.

 

28 minutes ago, Storm said:

See, what you have to understand is, the MTA wants to retire all the r46s, 62s, and 68s ASAP because of their goal of getting the full fleet to a millennium fleet (2000+), and install CBTC in the full system.

I do understand. But before a train model gets retired, the new model has to get all of it's testing cleared up and done right. As far as ASAP, that's up to them in trying to keep up with the schedule they have laid out to put a new train into service and retire a old train. I think maybe some of you people need to realize that CBTC will take a while before being implemented to the whole entire subway system. It's NOT overnight or something that can be done in 5 or 10 years. This type of technology component takes time and years to install and mechanically have everything working properly. NTT train models have to ensure communication with one another during passenger service on the road. We've seen the network meltdowns that have been happening throughout the Flushing and QB lines.

Edited June 3, 2022 by jon2305

[T to Dyre Avenue]

42 minutes ago, jon2305 said:

Why are their some folks so EAGER to get "rid" of the R68/As, so soon I might add. Those trains will be gone eventually but some people need to really get a grip. SMH It's just a train.

Not so much eager to get rid of them so soon, but rather to prepare for the day when they will need to be replaced. Older equipment does become more expensive to maintain over time, especially if it becomes harder to find replacement parts. This could certainly happen to the 1980s-era R62 and R68 series, which were ordered at a time when the MTA took a back-to-basics approach to car equipment after all the trouble they went through with the R46s, which were considered the New Tech Trains of their day when they first entered service. With so many systems globally embracing new technology, suppliers will move away from making obsolete parts, making it harder for the MTA to service the older trains.

3 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

There is ZERO relationship to which yard a line is assigned to (in this case the B) to the frequencies on the line.  Operations Planning, who makes up the schedules, couldn't care less which yard any line is assigned to.  Frequencies are figured out by budgets, merges with other lines and ridership.  Operations Planning takes their orders from "The Ivory Tower".  Furthermore, CCYD, as I mentioned some time ago, only has 3 barn tracks, one of which is the wheel truing machine.  The other 2 tracks which could hold 1 train on each track would not be enough for inspections and trouble cars for both the B and D lines.  Therefore, the B will continue to be assigned to CIYD.  There simply isn't the capacity in CCYD to handle both the B and D based on the size of the barn.  As it is, the D line equipment can barely fit in that barn.

The Concourse barn definitely is small with only three tracks. But were there ever serious plans to expand the barn, possibly that fell victim to the MTA’s woeful money management? Hopefully, at the very least, they are going to prepare the existing barn to be able to service new tech trains, be they new R211s or R160s cascaded from Jamaica Yard.

15 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

If it weren't for CBTC, the r68's and r62's (A division) can go a few years beyond 2030.

But with CBTC being installed on 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue and other parts of the B division, then the r68's won't be able to run on CBTC sections of the subway. That's why the B/D will get NTT's after the A/C.

Agreed. But who knows how far they’ll get with the CBTC project? From what I’m seeing here and elsewhere, CBTC on QBL and the  seem to keep having issues. Not to mention that the MTA’s cries of “We’ll soon be broke” seem to once again be rearing their ugly heads, which could potentially limit how much of the system gets upgraded. 

[Trainmaster5]

54 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Not so much eager to get rid of them so soon, but rather to prepare for the day when they will need to be replaced. Older equipment does become more expensive to maintain over time, especially if it becomes harder to find replacement parts. This could certainly happen to the 1980s-era R62 and R68 series, which were ordered at a time when the MTA took a back-to-basics approach to car equipment after all the trouble they went through with the R46s, which were considered the New Tech Trains of their day when they first entered service. With so many systems globally embracing new technology, suppliers will move away from making obsolete parts, making it harder for the MTA to service the older trains.

The Concourse barn definitely is small with only three tracks. But were there ever serious plans to expand the barn, possibly that fell victim to the MTA’s woeful money management? Hopefully, at the very least, they are going to prepare the existing barn to be able to service new tech trains, be they new R211s or R160s cascaded from Jamaica Yard.

Agreed. But who knows how far they’ll get with the CBTC project? From what I’m seeing here and elsewhere, CBTC on QBL and the  seem to keep having issues. Not to mention that the MTA’s cries of “We’ll soon be broke” seem to once again be rearing their ugly heads, which could potentially limit how much of the system gets upgraded. 

Your last paragraph is on the money,  in my opinion. The whole CBTC was supposed to be fully implemented in both divisions by now. That's what some of us in RTO were told in the late '90's. The inside joke was that in 25 years the system would need to be upgraded. Here we are and except for the test beds in  B1, on the  and the , we're still plodding along. I, personally,  think the goal of CBTC full implementation is something that we need. The problem is the many changes in the specs and the different plans and players involved have pushed the project well into the future. The has too many things on it's agenda and no money to implement everything. Do you replace the R62s and R68s when you don't have a complete system installed  ? I'm just asking because if you been reading about the CBTC and the ATS overlay for the last two decades,  combined with the financial picture of the , you probably believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy too because the reality is that it's all smoke and mirrors. Fantasy Island stuff.  My opinion.  Carry on. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 hours ago, jon2305 said:

I know what you mean in terms of the AC. Luckily with those trains I've never been in a hot R68/As car during the summer, however in the case with the R62As it's a different story. Alot of times I could not bare with the R62As lack of AC or even how dirty and disgusting they look on the these days. I've lived by the for majority of my life and I do say that its time for change. As of late the R62As have been a eyesore for me, but that being said I still ride'em for personal/professional purposes regardless.

Well the  has never felt clean to be honest (lol), but with the AC only being in the center of the car, I can't stand anywhere else and be comfortable, so there have been times when I have had to get off of the train, get some air and wait for the next one. I get overheated especially if it's the winter time and the train is packed. More people, the warmer the car... I usually take my coat off, but sometimes that is not enough. From a functionality standpoint, the  and  all have those bucket seats and it seems to contribute to more crowded cars, as people don't like sitting right on top of each other. The bench seats just allow for a simpler layout, not to mention that obviously some people are bigger than what the bucket seats allow for. I always stand, but the doors themselves are narrow, so two people cannot really stand next to each other comfortably, which is another annoyance of mine. It seems like the doors on the newer cars are wider to allow for an easier entry/exit.

[Lawrence St]

I’ve been seeing videos of the R211 testing and I noticed something, unlike the previous NTT cars, the R211’s can burn-in test and passenger info test without actually opening the doors. Pretty neat.

[Railfanner Mario]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I’ve been seeing videos of the R211 testing and I noticed something, unlike the previous NTT cars, the R211’s can burn-in test and passenger info test without actually opening the doors. Pretty neat.

Good you brought that up actually I was wondering why those doors were still closed while the indicator lights are bright red in stations. I wonder if they’ll open them as time goes on 

[DaPr03]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I’ve been seeing videos of the R211 testing and I noticed something, unlike the previous NTT cars, the R211’s can burn-in test and passenger info test without actually opening the doors. Pretty neat.

It seems like it was keyed open from the inside so one door panel can open, leading announcements to play & synchronizing with the program signed up.

[Storm]

On 5/7/2022 at 8:22 AM, R179 8258 said:

Honestly I think CBTC for Astoria is a waste because the Astoria Line is only from Queensboro to Astoria which is like 6 to 7 stops. If we want to go to the over crowding with Astoria , they can simple just add more trains pre hour on the  and  because the R211 order isn’t just for CBTC lines it’s also for fleet expansion      They might just have the R211 on the 8th/6th Ave lines. The  might get some split some R160 with  but the Coney Island will main have to deal with the R68/As until they’re retired and then the whole B Division we be all NTTs  

See, just one problem with that. 

Rollsign Switching at Ditmars

Many T/O’s and C/D’s have been complaining about the situation with SMEES. They will have to switch upwards of 20 rollsigns from the  to  (R68) or Vice versa, make sure the train is ready to go, and make sure there are no wrong rollsigns all in a 7 minute timeframe. So we have to put as many NTTs as we can on those lines. My opinion, carry on.

[Storm]

On 5/3/2022 at 11:17 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The NQW will not get CBTC any time soon. Therefore, the r68's will replace the r46 on the NQW. The B and D will get NTT's due to the fact that both lines get rerouted through 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue will get CBTC as well. There is no point of putting NTTs on lines that are not getting CBTC.

You’re also forgetting the fact that if 6th Avenue CBTC is proposed, NTTs need to ALSO run on Broadway, because of the reroutes and GOs that happen on the weekend and on emergencies. 6th Ave CBTC isn't coming until R68s are replaced.

[biGC323232]

15 minutes ago, Storm said:

See, just one problem with that. 

Rollsign Switching at Ditmars

Many T/O’s and C/D’s have been complaining about the situation with SMEES. They will have to switch upwards of 20 rollsigns from the  to  (R68) or Vice versa, make sure the train is ready to go, and make sure there are no wrong rollsigns all in a 7 minute timeframe. So we have to put as many NTTs as we can on those lines. My opinion, carry on.

I Wonder how many T/O And C/D's complained before the NTTS Rolled in...Technology really spoiled most of these workers...Up until 2003 everything thing was manually done and service somehow moved smoothly without delays