R211 Discussion Thread

[R68ACTrain]

14 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Trains break down sometimes, I did NOT say they didn't break down at all. Corona maintained the R62A well when they had them and one got an brake pipe rupture and got stuck in the under water tube, things happen.

 

 

So if I posted a video of an R160 with some random mechanical problem you would think the entire fleet is falling apart? 

 

 

I seen a railfan on youtube claim that Pikin maintains the R179 poorly cause of a few messed up pixels in the FIND, just absurd.

No but age plays a big part in something like that. It would be preposterous if someone said something so ridiculous about a young fleet. But we are talking about the R46s here. They turn 47 in just a few weeks, and they are trying their hardest to still run, but the fleet collectively is falling apart. This is why MTA needs to put their thinking caps on and reduce the usage of these cars by putting more on shorter, or day-afternoon-evening routes such as the  and less trains of the R46s on the . Yes Concourse is not able to manage this fleet, but this is why he  is still at Coney Island. If these delays do continue, the entire B Division will have a mass fleet shortage. Let’s keep it real.

 

21 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The B can't run r46's because Concourse can't handle two different fleets.

Concourse is not the main yard for them . Coney Island is able to handle them which is part of why it’s still there.

 

5 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

 

Its not that bad to the point they would cave in. They just have mostly mechanical issues that CAN be fixed but they barely have the time to get to everything due to the fact they need to make service. 

 

Again you are pushing hard for Coney to get R211s when they are not the priority right now.

 

 

 

Between this and the one that caught fire a few months back. But non of these guys see to get that. And I'm not R46 hater, But I want these fans to keep that same energy that they had for the R32s for the past 12 years for these too. Once that subway car fleet is the oldest in the system, They do not care for it.

And they fail to understand that age plays a huge roll in mechanical problems. How many times has the  and  have been delayed by a mechanical problem? And I’ve seen it where  and   have been affected by these delays, and they don’t run R46s, or run them to the ground on these lines

 

5 hours ago, Storm said:

If you saw what I said, I said coney would get new cars, new meaning NOT The R46.

Coney Island isnt gonna get new cars for a while. They’re gonna be forced to get Concourse R68s, and Jamaica R160s due to the declining reliability of the R46s

[Storm]

16 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

Coney Island isnt gonna get new cars for a while. They’re gonna be forced to get Concourse R68s, and Jamaica R160s due to the declining reliability of the R46s

I know that. I think y’all don’t know the definition of new. New meaning NOT the 46s, new meaning R68s. 

[NewFlyer 230]

On 6/25/2022 at 11:09 AM, MHV9218 said:

This really is going to seem like such a no-brainer when we consider the endless number of passenger injuries over the years, and the fact that we gave up the operational flexibility of single, Protestant, and eventually Catholic-married sets so many years ago. When you have modern consists like the 188s that comprise so many B- and C-cars, really becomes silly to have the safety risk of chain-link car gangways.

Why are the NTT’s made which such operational limitations? You can make R32’s for example into 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10 car sets for example that can be used on any B division but the R143’s, R160’s and R179’s can’t do that therefore having to stay in whatever sets they are configured in. 

[R68ACTrain]

1 hour ago, Storm said:

I know that. I think y’all don’t know the definition of new. New meaning NOT the 46s, new meaning R68s. 

There’s a difference between new and hand-me-downs. Clearly you don’t know what new means either. You’re contradicting your own statement.

[subwaycommuter1983]

2 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

And they fail to understand that age plays a huge roll in mechanical problems. How many times has the  and  have been delayed by a mechanical problem? And I’ve seen it where  and   have been affected by these delays, and they don’t run R46s, or run them to the ground on these lines

I know it's sounds drastic and expensive, but I think the MTA should consider during the weekends utilizing all the r68's from the B for the NQ and perhaps borrowing trains from ENY and Jamaica for the AC to give the worst performing r46's a break during the weekends until a good chunk of the r211's are in service.

[Joyjliradio]

Breaking news! R211 is dealy again until 2025 dues staff shot  

[R68ACTrain]

3 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I know it's sounds drastic and expensive, but I think the MTA should consider during the weekends utilizing all the r68's from the B for the NQ and perhaps borrowing trains from ENY and Jamaica for the AC to give the worst performing r46's a break during the weekends until a good chunk of the r211's are in service.

This idea is not bad but, there’s only 10  trains that get stored at Concourse on the weekends, and knowing Coney Island, more than 80 (10 trains) R46s would be knocked out. This potentially could work, but they would have to manage because Coney Island is definitely gonna be the last to receive R211s.

[R32 3838]

7 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

This idea is not bad but, there’s only 10  trains that get stored at Concourse on the weekends, and knowing Coney Island, more than 80 (10 trains) R46s would be knocked out. This potentially could work, but they would have to manage because Coney Island is definitely gonna be the last to receive R211s.

CI will probably not even get the R211s. They'll probably get the R160s back which would make more sense.

[4 via Mosholu]

5 hours ago, Joyjliradio said:

Breaking news! R211 is dealy again until 2025 dues staff shot  

Huh?

[subwaycommuter1983]

2 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

CI will probably not even get the R211s. They'll probably get the R160s back which would make more sense.

It does make huge sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the first option order is mostly standard trains and some open gangway trains, where the standard trains go to Concourse and possibly Pitkin/207 ( if there are any remaining r46's and to displace the 8 car r179's), while the open gangway trains go to Jamaica maybe Pitkin; while the second option order will probably be mostly open gangway trains going to Jamaica.

If CI gets any r211's is for the B. However, it's a numbers game. It all depends on how many standard trains and how many open gangway trains are built in the option orders. 

It doesn't make sense to put open gang way trains on the B, C, D, N, Q, R, W, because they don't have the ridership that the E and F trains have.

Edited June 27, 2022 by subwaycommuter1983

[Storm]

7 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

There’s a difference between new and hand-me-downs. Clearly you don’t know what new means either. You’re contradicting your own statement.

This is not worth arguing about. All I’m saying is, Broadway is on priority to get their cars replaced (with R68s)

[Storm]

4 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

It does make huge sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the first option order is mostly standard trains and some open gangway trains, where the standard trains go to Concourse and possibly Pitkin/207 ( if there are any remaining r46's and to displace the 8 car r179's), while the open gangway trains go to Jamaica maybe Pitkin; while the second option order will probably be mostly open gangway trains going to Jamaica.

You took the words out of my mouth. Jamaica’s displaced R160s would be sent to Coney Island Yard for  service to replace the worst preforming R68s. Pitkin would receive the base order for the , Concourse would receive a piece of option 1 for the , Coney would receive a piece of option 1 for the , and Jamaica would receive option two for the  and , displacing R160s to the .

[subwaycommuter1983]

1 hour ago, Storm said:

You took the words out of my mouth. Jamaica’s displaced R160s would be sent to Coney Island Yard for  service to replace the worst preforming R68s. Pitkin would receive the base order for the , Concourse would receive a piece of option 1 for the , Coney would receive a piece of option 1 for the , and Jamaica would receive option two for the  and , displacing R160s to the .

Exactly. In the case of the B it will depend on how many standard trains are being built for the option orders.

If the option orders include more standard trains than open gangway trains, then the B will get a piece of option order 1. 

On the other hand, if the option orders include more open gangway trains than standard trains, then the B will get the r160's from Jamaica and Pitkin may get a few open gangway trains as well to displace the standard trains to 207 to make the C full length. The base order may not be enough to make the C full length.

A good chunk of the 1st option order of standard trains will go to Concourse.

[darkstar8983]

Yes I think in the end the assignment is that all 8th Av and 6th Av lines end up with a mix of R160s and R211s, while Broadway is mixed, with R68s + R160s to the  and R68As to the .

[subwaycommuter1983]

4 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Yes I think in the end the assignment is that all 8th Av and 6th Av lines end up with a mix of R160s and R211s, while Broadway is mixed, with R68s + R160s to the  and R68As to the .

Let's not forget the 10 car r179's that will stay on the A.

The 8 car r179's that 207 currently have will go to ENY to displace more r160's to make the G full length 8 car trains.

ENY will also get the 8 car r211's trains (32 cars). Those cars will probably go to the M.

[darkstar8983]

9 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Let's not forget the 10 car r179's that will stay on the A.

The 8 car r179's that 207 currently have will go to ENY to displace more r160's to make the G full length 8 car trains.

ENY will also get the 8 car r211's trains (32 cars). Those cars will probably go to the M.

unless 8th Avenue just wants to use R211s for the  and , and the 10-car R179s would be moved out too (either Jamaica or Coney Island). This is the problem with odd-ball fleets, especially when dispersed among multiple yards.

[FLX9304]

21 hours ago, Joyjliradio said:

Breaking news! R211 is dealy again until 2025 dues staff shot  

Can you explain why is this “Breaking News”? 

[R32 3838]

19 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

unless 8th Avenue just wants to use R211s for the  and , and the 10-car R179s would be moved out too (either Jamaica or Coney Island). This is the problem with odd-ball fleets, especially when dispersed among multiple yards.

Those R179s are staying, They are in the process of getting CBTC kits installed. The only thing that would happen is pitkin's 130 cars move to 207th st yard to bump out the 8 car units to ENY if they are still going with that plan.

[R32 3838]

From the daily news

Source: https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-subway-lirr-train-cars-kawasaki-labor-nebraska-20220627-ozyvn5kssjgjpbeb7i7m42ms3a-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2zOESNGcCzvDsZ1xMlBOw9M-xKzqnV6h34GpvUpky8bl7KSWaR7oinCb0

 

Labor shortages and mismanagement at a Nebraska plant mean New York transit riders will have a longer wait for new train cars, MTA officials warned Monday.

The new Kawasaki cars are set to replace aging ones on the subway and Long Island Rail Road — but delivery is running at least 17 months late. Transit officials said the workers who build them keep quitting.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority board in 2018 inked a $1.75 billion contract with Kawasaki for 535 modern subway cars, called R211s, that are needed to replace ones dating back to the 1970s.

They were supposed to hit the tracks in July 2023, but ongoing problems have pushed their arrival to at least January 2025 — and an MTA consultant said delivery is at risk of slipping another nine months. Kawasaki is also behind schedule on a $734 million contract to deliver 202 new cars for the LIRR. Those new cars will replace old ones from the 1980s — and are needed to run the agency’s incoming East Side Access service intended to bring LIRR service into a new station beneath Grand Central Terminal by December. MTA officials said 132 of the new LIRR cars, dubbed M-9s, have been delivered. The rest are also 17 months behind schedule; officials said the last of them won’t arrive until September 2023.

MTA officials previously pinned delays to the deliveries on supply chain issues sparked by the COVID-19 pandemic.

On Monday they pointed to a labor catastrophe at Kawasaki’s plant in Lincoln, Neb., as cause for concern. “The people that would work, they would show up for a week, and then they would disappear,” LIRR head of rolling stock Jim Allen said during an MTA committee meeting. “That started a real systemic problem at Lincoln.”

Siu Ling Ko, chief mechanical officer for NYC Transit, said Kawasaki every month was losing about 45 employees who build subway cars in Nebraska — a high turnover rate for an operation of about 430 people.

Joseph Devito, the MTA’s independent engineering consultant, said Kawasaki’s struggle to retain workers began before the pandemic.

The train cars the MTA buys from Kawasaki are mostly built in Nebraska, but the final touches are put on at the company’s plant in Yonkers. Neither are unionized.

The shoddy oversight by Kawasaki managers has forced the MTA to babysit the company, Allen said. “Unfortunately we have found that Kawasaki requires constant oversight and supervision over their work by the railroad,” he said.

A Kawasaki executive did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

MTA officials said the delays with the LIRR cars won’t affect the agency’s plans to launch East Side Access in December. But delays to the new subway cars mean longer waits for upgrades to the outdated signaling systems on the A line.

The technology on the new cars are needed to run communications-based train control, which uses computers to automatically drive subway trains. Contractors have begun to install the technology between the Columbus Circle and High St. stations on the A, C and E lines.

MTA chief development officer Jamie Torres-Springer said the new signals will be running on the local tracks along that stretch by 2025 — but riders will have to wait longer for smoother commutes on the express tracks that serve the A line.

Despite the problems, MTA officials said they still plan to order another 640 new subway cars from Kawasaki later this year. Transit officials said it’s necessary because only two companies — Kawasaki and Alstom — sell subway cars to the MTA.

“The universe of competent, qualified car builders that are in the U.S. are down to two. We’re all very mindful of some of those consequences,” said MTA chairman Janno Lieber. “What we’re trying to do is help Kawasaki get back on the straight and narrow.”

 

[darkstar8983]

2 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

From the daily news

Source: https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-subway-lirr-train-cars-kawasaki-labor-nebraska-20220627-ozyvn5kssjgjpbeb7i7m42ms3a-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2zOESNGcCzvDsZ1xMlBOw9M-xKzqnV6h34GpvUpky8bl7KSWaR7oinCb0

 

Labor shortages and mismanagement at a Nebraska plant mean New York transit riders will have a longer wait for new train cars, MTA officials warned Monday.

The new Kawasaki cars are set to replace aging ones on the subway and Long Island Rail Road — but delivery is running at least 17 months late. Transit officials said the workers who build them keep quitting.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority board in 2018 inked a $1.75 billion contract with Kawasaki for 535 modern subway cars, called R211s, that are needed to replace ones dating back to the 1970s.

They were supposed to hit the tracks in July 2023, but ongoing problems have pushed their arrival to at least January 2025 — and an MTA consultant said delivery is at risk of slipping another nine months. Kawasaki is also behind schedule on a $734 million contract to deliver 202 new cars for the LIRR. Those new cars will replace old ones from the 1980s — and are needed to run the agency’s incoming East Side Access service intended to bring LIRR service into a new station beneath Grand Central Terminal by December. MTA officials said 132 of the new LIRR cars, dubbed M-9s, have been delivered. The rest are also 17 months behind schedule; officials said the last of them won’t arrive until September 2023.

MTA officials previously pinned delays to the deliveries on supply chain issues sparked by the COVID-19 pandemic.

On Monday they pointed to a labor catastrophe at Kawasaki’s plant in Lincoln, Neb., as cause for concern. “The people that would work, they would show up for a week, and then they would disappear,” LIRR head of rolling stock Jim Allen said during an MTA committee meeting. “That started a real systemic problem at Lincoln.”

Siu Ling Ko, chief mechanical officer for NYC Transit, said Kawasaki every month was losing about 45 employees who build subway cars in Nebraska — a high turnover rate for an operation of about 430 people.

Joseph Devito, the MTA’s independent engineering consultant, said Kawasaki’s struggle to retain workers began before the pandemic.

The train cars the MTA buys from Kawasaki are mostly built in Nebraska, but the final touches are put on at the company’s plant in Yonkers. Neither are unionized.

The shoddy oversight by Kawasaki managers has forced the MTA to babysit the company, Allen said. “Unfortunately we have found that Kawasaki requires constant oversight and supervision over their work by the railroad,” he said.

A Kawasaki executive did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

MTA officials said the delays with the LIRR cars won’t affect the agency’s plans to launch East Side Access in December. But delays to the new subway cars mean longer waits for upgrades to the outdated signaling systems on the A line.

The technology on the new cars are needed to run communications-based train control, which uses computers to automatically drive subway trains. Contractors have begun to install the technology between the Columbus Circle and High St. stations on the A, C and E lines.

MTA chief development officer Jamie Torres-Springer said the new signals will be running on the local tracks along that stretch by 2025 — but riders will have to wait longer for smoother commutes on the express tracks that serve the A line.

Despite the problems, MTA officials said they still plan to order another 640 new subway cars from Kawasaki later this year. Transit officials said it’s necessary because only two companies — Kawasaki and Alstom — sell subway cars to the MTA.

“The universe of competent, qualified car builders that are in the U.S. are down to two. We’re all very mindful of some of those consequences,” said MTA chairman Janno Lieber. “What we’re trying to do is help Kawasaki get back on the straight and narrow.”

 

And what about sub-contracting to Alstom ? I mean Alstom and Kawasaki each did a sizable amount of the order for the R160s. Because, at this rate, if the contract keeps slipping, this R211 order (assuming it meets the MTA's expectations) will need to be large enough to retire R68 cars because those cars will reach 43-45 years of age by the time the last R211 cars start service, unless the MTA has a plan to again contract the subway fleet and  cause another car shortage by just slashing service and claim that the R211 cars will be enough. 

[Trainmaster5]

This article should be a reminder to all of my fellow posters. Read the business sections of the national news services sometime. Since the beginning of the Covid-19 era the supply shortage problem was foreseen yet hardly mentioned in local media or the forums. We have some members that are aware of the situation but don’t post as frequently as they did in the past. I understand their frustration with some of our fellow posters. Arguing about CBTC, R211, option orders and future fleet assignments seem interesting to many but the real world evidence points in another direction. There’s a reason why the LIRR is keeping some of the M3 fleet operational. ESA is coming in a limited form later this year. Limited because they don’t have enough equipment for a full rollout. My fellow subway posters are hopefully aware that Kawasaki is also the supplier of the R211 subway fleet. The same company with labor problems and suffering from supply shortages. The same supply shortages in the software sector have affected auto manufacturing worldwide. Took me 10 weeks to get a replacement software module for my car. I wasn’t aware of the labor issue at Kawasaki but the M9 issues were known to some but the subway posters continued to argue amongst themselves about the R211 equipment and potential locations. All I’m saying is that we should tamp down the arguments and take a step back and be realistic about this issue and future CBTC. My opinion. Carry on.

[Bill from Maspeth]

On 6/27/2022 at 2:01 PM, Joyjliradio said:

Breaking news! R211 is dealy again until 2025 dues staff shot  

WTF are you talking about?

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

WTF are you talking about?

I'm guessing it means the R211 is delayed 

[R32 3838]

7 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

This article should be a reminder to all of my fellow posters. Read the business sections of the national news services sometime. Since the beginning of the Covid-19 era the supply shortage problem was foreseen yet hardly mentioned in local media or the forums. We have some members that are aware of the situation but don’t post as frequently as they did in the past. I understand their frustration with some of our fellow posters. Arguing about CBTC, R211, option orders and future fleet assignments seem interesting to many but the real world evidence points in another direction. There’s a reason why the LIRR is keeping some of the M3 fleet operational. ESA is coming in a limited form later this year. Limited because they don’t have enough equipment for a full rollout. My fellow subway posters are hopefully aware that Kawasaki is also the supplier of the R211 subway fleet. The same company with labor problems and suffering from supply shortages. The same supply shortages in the software sector have affected auto manufacturing worldwide. Took me 10 weeks to get a replacement software module for my car. I wasn’t aware of the labor issue at Kawasaki but the M9 issues were known to some but the subway posters continued to argue amongst themselves about the R211 equipment and potential locations. All I’m saying is that we should tamp down the arguments and take a step back and be realistic about this issue and future CBTC. My opinion. Carry on.

 

I have brought up things about the supply issues, I brought it up more on facebook than on here. But got too confident and now they are in a situation where they have to figure out how to keep the reliability of the R46s up instead of down. They Should have never decided to retire the R32s UNTIL the first R211 hits revenue service. Now the 30 day test is pushed back until November.

 

The Labor issues makes this even worse because now these cars will come in very very slow. they expected 40 cars per month and now they expect only 20 per month due to the ongoing issues. 8th ave CBTC is pretty much pushed back because they don't have enough equipment to make the entire lines 100% tech trains by 2024 due to the delays. want to go forward with the 640 Option I (Probably funded by the money they got from the feds) Base order is paid for already.  They want to ensure the cars are worthy before they run it in revenue service is why they pushed the 30 day test back.

[subwaycommuter1983]

13 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

I have brought up things about the supply issues, I brought it up more on facebook than on here. But got too confident and now they are in a situation where they have to figure out how to keep the reliability of the R46s up instead of down. They Should have never decided to retire the R32s UNTIL the first R211 hits revenue service. Now the 30 day test is pushed back until November.

 

The Labor issues makes this even worse because now these cars will come in very very slow. they expected 40 cars per month and now they expect only 20 per month due to the ongoing issues. 8th ave CBTC is pretty much pushed back because they don't have enough equipment to make the entire lines 100% tech trains by 2024 due to the delays. want to go forward with the 640 Option I (Probably funded by the money they got from the feds) Base order is paid for already.  They want to ensure the cars are worthy before they run it in revenue service is why they pushed the 30 day test back.

The r32's were in worst shape than the r46's. 

The best course of action at this point is to give the worst performing r46's a break during the weekends.

The NQ can use all the r68's from the B. The AC will need to use all their r179's and borrow trains from ENY and Jamaica. Keep in that the M hasn't been running during the weekends and the J is barely running in Manhattan during the weekends. Therefore, those unused NTTs can be put on the C during the weekends.