R211 Discussion Thread

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That and the WMATA 7000-series fleet. Although WMATA was worse off, because the need to sideline the 7000s practically paralyzed DC’s Metro. What happened to Kawasaki? They used to make such reliable trains. We never had these problems with the R62s, R68As or any of the pre-R211 New Tech trains. 

Can the MTA legally award the contract for the option order R211s to Alstom or another company? 

 

Kawasaki isn't at fault for those 7000s. It all depends on how these railcars are spec'ed. If Kawasaki was so bad, The R160Bs would be unreliable. The R160's continue to be the most reliable fleet in the B division. 

Washington Metros railcars are mostly lightweight cars, These 7000 are built with stainless steel and are much heavier than the former cars they replaced. There's going to be problems.

M9's are just coming in slow due to supply constraints and labor shortage.

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by R32 3838

[subwaycommuter1983]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That and the WMATA 7000-series fleet. Although WMATA was worse off, because the need to sideline the 7000s practically paralyzed DC’s Metro. What happened to Kawasaki? They used to make such reliable trains. We never had these problems with the R62s, R68As or any of the pre-R211 New Tech trains. 

Can the MTA legally award the contract for the option order R211s to Alstom or another company? 

Keep in mind that the main cause of the delays with the r211's is the pandemic.

If it weren't for Rona, A good chunk of the r211's would be in service by now and a good chunk of the r46's plus the r32's would be gone.

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

7 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

Kawasaki isn't at fault for those 7000s. It all depends on how these railcars are spec'ed. If Kawasaki was so bad, The R160Bs would be unreliable. The R160's continue to be the most reliable fleet in the B division. 

Washington Metros railcars are mostly lightweight cars, These 7000 are built with stainless steel and are much heavier than the former cars they replaced. There's going to be problems.

M9's are just coming in slow due to supply constraints and labor shortage.

 

I meant over the past roughly 10 years. I might’ve deleted that before posting earlier, though I did mention the pre-R211 New Tech trains in my previous post as not having so many problems. R160B’s included. All of which have been in service more than 10 years. That’s why I was glad the MTA awarded Kawasaki the R211 contract and I really hope all of the problems Kawasaki is having with their more recent US car orders - namely the M8, M9 and WMATA 7000s - aren’t about to make Kawasaki into the new Bombardier. 

6 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Keep in mind that the main cause of the delays with the r211's is the pandemic.

If it weren't for Rona, A good chunk of the r211's would be in service by now and a good chunk of the r46's plus the r32's would be gone.

 

Perhaps with the R211s, Rona may very well be the main cause. But I’ve been reading that Kawasaki had been having trouble with its suppliers and employees on some of its other US orders well before the pandemic. 

[Trainmaster5]

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I meant over the past roughly 10 years. I might’ve deleted that before posting earlier, though I did mention the pre-R211 New Tech trains in my previous post as not having so many problems. R160B’s included. All of which have been in service more than 10 years. That’s why I was glad the MTA awarded Kawasaki the R211 contract and I really hope all of the problems Kawasaki is having with their more recent US car orders - namely the M8, M9 and WMATA 7000s - aren’t about to make Kawasaki into the new Bombardier. 

Perhaps with the R211s, Rona may very well be the main cause. But I’ve been reading that Kawasaki had been having trouble with its suppliers and employees on some of its other US orders well before the pandemic. 

Try telling that to the Kawasaki pom pom wavers on the forums. I’ve tried telling some people to read the business and/ or technology sections or magazines. For over a decade these stories about the manufacturing of rail cars and the shrinking number of suppliers has been known . When US states added the “ made in “ or “ assembled in “ provision to contracts they compromised whatever strength those states or authorities ever had. This leaves the and the other folks at the mercy of one or two companies who are still willing to do business with them. Imagine a supplier undergoing a parts and software shortage, in the midst of a pandemic, with labor issues. Forget about on time delivery. Covid-19’s an Act of God issue if it goes to court. Remember that it’s the politicians and the business interests that actually control transportation issues in the state and the country. This talk of  option orders is borderline Fantasy Island, at least to me, with the political climate we’re in and the prospect of an anti-mass transit congress taking over next year. Just my take on the ongoing issues. Feel free to disagree with me. No hard feelings either way. Carry on.

[FLX9304]

On 7/9/2022 at 10:46 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That and the WMATA 7000-series fleet. Although WMATA was worse off, because the need to sideline the 7000s practically paralyzed DC’s Metro. What happened to Kawasaki? They used to make such reliable trains. We never had these problems with the R62s, R68As or any of the pre-R211 New Tech trains. 

Can the MTA legally award the contract for the option order R211s to Alstom or another company? 

That was the problem with R179s and why they were taken off the tracks, plus they were late on deliveries. Problems on the other side have caused delays in deliveries and components that were needed to run train cars together. 

[Lawrence St]

On 7/10/2022 at 12:14 AM, Trainmaster5 said:

Try telling that to the Kawasaki pom pom wavers on the forums. I’ve tried telling some people to read the business and/ or technology sections or magazines. For over a decade these stories about the manufacturing of rail cars and the shrinking number of suppliers has been known . When US states added the “ made in “ or “ assembled in “ provision to contracts they compromised whatever strength those states or authorities ever had. This leaves the and the other folks at the mercy of one or two companies who are still willing to do business with them. Imagine a supplier undergoing a parts and software shortage, in the midst of a pandemic, with labor issues. Forget about on time delivery. Covid-19’s an Act of God issue if it goes to court. Remember that it’s the politicians and the business interests that actually control transportation issues in the state and the country. This talk of  option orders is borderline Fantasy Island, at least to me, with the political climate we’re in and the prospect of an anti-mass transit congress taking over next year. Just my take on the ongoing issues. Feel free to disagree with me. No hard feelings either way. Carry on.

I completely agree with that last statement. With the incoming recession that everyone keeps talking about, there’s no POINT in having option order R211’s. Hell, there’s not even a point in having articulated or SIR R211’s either.

[darkstar8983]

24 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I completely agree with that last statement. With the incoming recession that everyone keeps talking about, there’s no POINT in having option order R211’s. Hell, there’s not even a point in having articulated or SIR R211’s either.

I think what they'll do is JUST have option order 1 (or some reduced form of it) so that way exactly 940 cars are ordered to replace the R46 fleet and thats it (plus the 75 SIR cars, unless R68s will be retrofitted to be sent to SIR). The problem is that the R46s are literally falling apart and can't make service as well as they used to, and we have to try to avoid what happened in the Boston MBTA (where the Orange Line cars were performing so poorly that service had to be scaled back because there were not enough cars available to make service), or in the extreme case of DC Metro where only 40% of service can be provided right now because the 7000 series cars are for the most part sidelined, minus 64 cars that are in conditional service, but have to be shuffled in and out of the yards after rush hours and end of day.

Edited July 18, 2022 by darkstar8983

[subwaycommuter1983]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

I completely agree with that last statement. With the incoming recession that everyone keeps talking about, there’s no POINT in having option order R211’s. Hell, there’s not even a point in having articulated or SIR R211’s either.

Yes, there is. We got to think about the future. Within 1-5 years from now, we're going to have the same ridership that we have before the pandemic. There's no way that the MTA can provide good service if trains are constantly delayed due to signal issues and due to subway car shortages because the SMEEs are falling apart. Preserving old subway cars is too expensive.

The MTA needs to move forward with CBTC and purchasing ALL option orders of r211's even if it means putting more political pressure on the federal government.

 

[Lawrence St]

16 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Yes, there is. We got to think about the future. Within 1-5 years from now, we're going to have the same ridership that we have before the pandemic. There's no way that the MTA can provide good service if trains are constantly delayed due to signal issues and due to subway car shortages because the SMEEs are falling apart. Preserving old subway cars is too expensive.

The MTA needs to move forward with CBTC and purchasing ALL option orders of r211's even if it means putting more political pressure on the federal government.

 

That’s not happening. It will take years for ridership to get back to the way it was, which is why all these unnecessary projects such as CBTC, R211’s, etc etc are not a priority.

[rbrome]

A certain percentage of the workforce will never return to the office. It remains to be seen what percentage, but a lot of people are working from home and finding that it's working quite well for them and their employers. So I don't think anyone should plan for a return to "100%" levels any time soon. 

At the same time, service cuts lead to even lower ridership, which starts you down a death spiral. 

I think the MTA does need all the new cars, and the state simply needs to cough up more funding. I don't see any good alternatives. 

[Prospect]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

That’s not happening. It will take years for ridership to get back to the way it was, which is why all these unnecessary projects such as CBTC, R211’s, etc etc are not a priority.

No, those projects are absolutely necessary! The signaling system is ancient that's very expensive to repair as they have to customize their own parts in-house and has limited ability to space out trains, and prone to daily malfunctions that delay the commutes of thousands of passengers every single day. The R46's are also approaching the precambrian period in age and with all those decades of wear and tear that have already more than worn them out at this point, it will be worth it in the long term to replace them with newer, more efficient technology. Repairing them is too unnecessarily timely and costly when they're beyond retirement age already. When ridership increases, these changes will allow the system to accommodate that extra demand, because doing nothing in your case will crash hard when demand elevates. 

[R32 3838]

Some of these comments are on here just make me laugh.

 

The "Oh no one will return to office work" Virginia likes to say hello (Governor lied and is making people go back to office work.)

 

Yeah it won't be like pre pandemic but It's not as bad as you guys make it out to be. Y'all said the same shit back in 2010 when they did the cuts. "oh ridership isn't gonna grow" and then within a year areas in north Brooklyn shot up in ridership.

 

You can't predict the future because shit changes.

 

Saying that getting new subway cars aren't a priority is a dumb argument. If the R32s were still running, You guys wouldn't say that.  

 

Plus the R211s are pretty much paid for and option order I seems like a lock according to the latest update.

 

 

On 7/12/2022 at 1:23 PM, FLX9304 said:

That was the problem with R179s and why they were taken off the tracks, plus they were late on deliveries. Problems on the other side have caused delays in deliveries and components that were needed to run train cars together. 

 

These guys lack common sense.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by R32 3838

[T to Dyre Avenue]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I completely agree with that last statement. With the incoming recession that everyone keeps talking about, there’s no POINT in having option order R211’s. Hell, there’s not even a point in having articulated or SIR R211’s either.

 

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

That’s not happening. It will take years for ridership to get back to the way it was, which is why all these unnecessary projects such as CBTC, R211’s, etc etc are not a priority.

I completely disagree with both of your posts.  At the very least, the R211s have to be a priority.  We can’t possibly expect the R46s and SIR R44s to last another 10 to 15 years in service.  And you can’t tell me that the current signals are just fine. Not with all many times signal problems cause delays in the system.  At some point it becomes more expensive to fix the old equipment as opposed to buying new. We are at that point now.  Saying that modern signals and new subway cars are “completely unnecessary projects” is the wrong way. 

3 hours ago, rbrome said:

A certain percentage of the workforce will never return to the office. It remains to be seen what percentage, but a lot of people are working from home and finding that it's working quite well for them and their employers. So I don't think anyone should plan for a return to "100%" levels any time soon. 

At the same time, service cuts lead to even lower ridership, which starts you down a death spiral. 

I think the MTA does need all the new cars, and the state simply needs to cough up more funding. I don't see any good alternatives. 

At the very least, we definitely need the option 1 order of R211 cars. The 46s and  44s aren’t getting any newer and to expect them to soldier on another decade or so without significant mechanical problems is too much to ask.

Edited July 18, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[LGA Link N Train]

I agree with @R32 3838 and @T to Dyre Avenue here. 

The 46's have been running for about 47 years at this point so replacing them should be a priority. If my math is correct, The 1st Option order should replace about half of the existing fleet of 46's. Then the 1st Option Order alone will replace the rest of the 46 fleet in addition of adding a few extra trains into they system. In what world should that NOT be a priority? Granted, given the current schedule of the order in addition to employee's leaving the Kawasaki plant in Nebreska, I don't expect to see the completion of the first Option order until 2027-2029. It'd be a miracle if we even get the 2nd Option Order (which arguably, I don't think we need the 2nd Option Order unless some 68's decide to shit the bed early)

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

It will take years for ridership to get back to the way it was, which is why all these unnecessary projects such as CBTC, R211’s, etc etc are not a priority.

Better to future-proof the system if thats the case then, therefore adding a level of necessity to these projects. 

[NewFlyer 230]

6 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Yes, there is. We got to think about the future. Within 1-5 years from now, we're going to have the same ridership that we have before the pandemic. There's no way that the MTA can provide good service if trains are constantly delayed due to signal issues and due to subway car shortages because the SMEEs are falling apart. Preserving old subway cars is too expensive.

The MTA needs to move forward with CBTC and purchasing ALL option orders of r211's even if it means putting more political pressure on the federal government.

 

The MTA and the state have to be smart in general about ordering new trains. I say once cars turn 30 years old there should already be talks about replacement regardless of the condition the cars in. We shouldn’t have over 700 trains still operating in service that are over 40 years old. On top of that the spare factor is basically non existent. SI should have had new cars a decade ago. All the money the  spent trying to keep those R44’s operational they probably could have had the money for a new fleet for the SIR. 
The money used to do most of those half assed station enhancements could have been put to the side for additional trains.

 

5 hours ago, rbrome said:

A certain percentage of the workforce will never return to the office. It remains to be seen what percentage, but a lot of people are working from home and finding that it's working quite well for them and their employers. So I don't think anyone should plan for a return to "100%" levels any time soon. 

At the same time, service cuts lead to even lower ridership, which starts you down a death spiral. 

I think the MTA does need all the new cars, and the state simply needs to cough up more funding. I don't see any good alternatives. 

The uptick in crime is definitely having a negative impact on subway ridership as well. There are plenty of people who don’t want to have anything to do with the subways because of covid, the homeless, the dirt and of course the criminals. So I don’t think it will be what it used to for a few years unless things really start to improve. 

[subwaycommuter1983]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

That’s not happening. It will take years for ridership to get back to the way it was, which is why all these unnecessary projects such as CBTC, R211’s, etc etc are not a priority.

Really?? Cause I ride the trains every day and during the weekends. The trains are packed during rush hours and even on Saturdays trains are packed.

If the MTA doesn't move forward with CBTC and getting ALL option orders of r211's, there's going to be massive delays in service and a massive subway car shortage.

Do you really want this to happen???

[Around the Horn]

13 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

 It will take years for ridership to get back to the way it was, which is why all these unnecessary projects such as CBTC, R211’s, etc etc are not a priority.

What on earth are you talking about? Weekend ridership is already poised to match or even surpass 2019 by the end of the year and weekdays are routinely hitting ~60% of 2019 levels and will probably hit 70% maybe even 80% by the end of the year. Many individual stations are hitting 80%-90% of 2019 ridership daily. This idea that the subway isn't busy anymore is nonsense. Not to mention the R46s and our ancient signal systems are literally dying as we speak. These projects are of paramount importance.

9 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

Some of these comments are on here just make me laugh.

The "Oh no one will return to office work" Virginia likes to say hello (Governor lied and is making people go back to office work.)

Yeah it won't be like pre pandemic but It's not as bad as you guys make it out to be. Y'all said the same shit back in 2010 when they did the cuts. "oh ridership isn't gonna grow" and then within a year areas in north Brooklyn shot up in ridership.

You can't predict the future because shit changes.

This, all of this.

[mine248]

The R211 is currently doing simulated stop testing on the

[Lawrence St]

16 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

What on earth are you talking about? Weekend ridership is already poised to match or even surpass 2019 by the end of the year and weekdays are routinely hitting ~60% of 2019 levels and will probably hit 70% maybe even 80% by the end of the year. Many individual stations are hitting 80%-90% of 2019 ridership daily. This idea that the subway isn't busy anymore is nonsense. Not to mention the R46s and our ancient signal systems are literally dying as we speak. These projects are of paramount importance.

This, all of this.

Your entitled to your opinion, but I stand by what I said. I've had multiple friends tell me they aren't taking the subway anymore because of the pandemic, crime, delays, or any combination of the 3.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

What on earth are you talking about? Weekend ridership is already poised to match or even surpass 2019 by the end of the year and weekdays are routinely hitting ~60% of 2019 levels and will probably hit 70% maybe even 80% by the end of the year. Many individual stations are hitting 80%-90% of 2019 ridership daily. This idea that the subway isn't busy anymore is nonsense. Not to mention the R46s and our ancient signal systems are literally dying as we speak. These projects are of paramount importance.

This, all of this.

 

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Your entitled to your opinion, but I stand by what I said. I've had multiple friends tell me they aren't taking the subway anymore because of the pandemic, crime, delays, or any combination of the 3.

You are both correct. On the one hand, some people have stopped taking the subway (myself included) because of the crime issues down below.  On the other hand, because of inflation and high gas prices, some people have resorted to taking public transit again.  How many people will come back to the subway remains to be seen, but I do know that the express buses I've been on have been more crowded each week.  The local buses too when I have used them in Manhattan.

[subwaycommuter1983]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 

You are both correct. On the one hand, some people have stopped taking the subway (myself included) because of the crime issues down below.  On the other hand, because of inflation and high gas prices, some people have resorted to taking public transit again.  How many people will come back to the subway remains to be seen, but I do know that the express buses I've been on have been more crowded each week.  The local buses too when I have used them in Manhattan.

I ride the trains every day and I feel much safer on the trains than on some streets in NYC.

If people don't want to be mugged, then they should not be on the streets flashing expensive items at 2am.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I ride the trains every day and I feel much safer on the trains than on some streets in NYC.

If people don't want to be mugged, then they should not be on the streets flashing expensive items at 2am.

Mugged? Many of the people getting attacked, shot, etc. on the subway are not flashing any expensive items. We have too many mentally ill people using the system. Until that is addressed, I don't expect much to improve underground.

[subwaycommuter1983]

39 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Mugged? Many of the people getting attacked, shot, etc. on the subway are not flashing any expensive items. We have too many mentally ill people using the system. Until that is addressed, I don't expect much to improve underground.

It's been happening everywhere, even outside NYC. Look at all the mass shootings that have been happening in other states. This is a national problem.

The federal government needs to take action. There needs to be gun control and more federal funding for mental health.

[Vulturious]

We are definitely getting off topic, here are my two cents on the R211 issue. If Kawasaki needs more time to build trains, then there's really nothing we can do. However, saying the MTA should not really prioritize on the second order option isn't a good idea. We definitely need more trains to at least give the R68/A's some needed rest so they can last much longer at the very least.

While it sucks that we have to deal with this, I don't think there's much we can do other than getting the MTA to stop prioritizing some really dumb and very much not needed projects. They really need to start using their brains because the execution of some of these projects are very questionable it gives you headaches. I know I had a few, $30 million on a staircase and now we beating that with $61 million for a new mezanine or whatever. Oh well, that's my two cents, if there's anything y'all want to point me out for, go for it.

[subwaycommuter1983]

9 hours ago, Vulturious said:

We are definitely getting off topic, here are my two cents on the R211 issue. If Kawasaki needs more time to build trains, then there's really nothing we can do. However, saying the MTA should not really prioritize on the second order option isn't a good idea. We definitely need more trains to at least give the R68/A's some needed rest so they can last much longer at the very least.

While it sucks that we have to deal with this, I don't think there's much we can do other than getting the MTA to stop prioritizing some really dumb and very much not needed projects. They really need to start using their brains because the execution of some of these projects are very questionable it gives you headaches. I know I had a few, $30 million on a staircase and now we beating that with $61 million for a new mezanine or whatever. Oh well, that's my two cents, if there's anything y'all want to point me out for, go for it.

I agree 100%. The r211's, CBTC, and the r262's should be made top in order for the MTA to provide better service.

The MTA is not thinking about the future.

Edited July 20, 2022 by subwaycommuter1983