R211 Discussion Thread

[R32 3838]

12 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

Okay, lets look at this logically.

 

the R211s are going to be CBTC ready at launch.

 

They are supposed to be ready in time for the first phase of the 8th avenue Line to get CBTC.

 

That first phase is south of 59th street to High Street,

 

This would mean one of two possible things for the first trains on the 211 order.

 

They are straight up swapping out the R46s on the A and C.

Or they are going to go to Queens Blvd and the R160s on QB will take over the A and C. 

 

The entire discussion about the B does nothing.

 

The Base order R211As will not go to Queens Blvd, The 20 R211Ts COULD go to Jamaica for testing and to get the yard and riders familiar with the fleet after its done testing across the B division. 

 

It wouldn't make any sense to put the R211s on Queens Blvd first when they should make sure they test them correctly when it comes to CBTC to make sure they don't have any issues. They'll probably test the pilot set in queens for CBTC anyway before they also test CBTC on 8th ave but now that's delayed (8th ave CBTC).

 

The Reason people bring up the   is because 8th ave CBTC will start at 59th CC. Also The could get rerouted, GO's and Yankee Specials use 8th ave. So in order to avoid any mess with non CBTC equipment running in CBTC territory in the middle of peak hours, Its better just to give both the tech trains. This will happen when Option Order I takes place. would probably get a new fleet while Jamaica gets the 2nd half of Option I to push out the R160s to CI for the and whatever is left for the .

 

So either way, trains will get tech trains. The R46s out of pitkin are going to either get scrapped or go to CI while CI pushes their out first.

Edited July 4, 2022 by R32 3838

[FLX9304]

12 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

The Base order R211As will not go to Queens Blvd, The 20 R211Ts COULD go to Jamaica for testing and to get the yard and riders familiar with the fleet after its done testing across the B division. 

 

It wouldn't make any sense to put the R211s on Queens Blvd first when they should make sure they test them correctly when it comes to CBTC to make sure they don't have any issues. They'll probably test the pilot set in queens for CBTC anyway before they also test CBTC on 8th ave but now that's delayed (8th ave CBTC).

 

The Reason people bring up the   is because 8th ave CBTC will start at 59th CC. Also The could get rerouted, GO's and Yankee Specials use 8th ave. So in order to avoid any mess with non CBTC equipment running in CBTC territory in the middle of peak hours, Its better just to give both the tech trains. This will happen when Option Order I takes place. would probably get a new fleet while Jamaica gets the 2nd half of Option I to push out the R160s to CI for the and whatever is left for the .

 

So either way, trains will get tech trains. The R46s out of pitkin are going to either get scrapped or go to CI while CI pushes their out first.

Since CI has 5482-5877, which are the oldest cars on the fleet. No matter how you put it, they’re still getting a certain amount of cars just to maintenance them. 

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, FLX9304 said:

Since CI has 5482-5877, which are the oldest cars on the fleet. No matter how you put it, they’re still getting a certain amount of cars just to maintenance them. 

They are not the oldest cars. The has some the oldest R46. When the R46s were renumbered, They were mixed up. The only cars that didn't really get mixed up are the A-A sets which are the newest cars. 

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1l6kZ05gU-4fMhf5rc9GX5igW6d97vq9_nn0WSJkNTxM/pub?single=true&gid=6&output=html

 

 

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

They are not the oldest cars. The has some the oldest R46. When the R46s were renumbered, They were mixed up. The only cars that didn't really get mixed up are the A-A sets which are the newest cars. 

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1l6kZ05gU-4fMhf5rc9GX5igW6d97vq9_nn0WSJkNTxM/pub?single=true&gid=6&output=html

 

 

 

Edit: CI has 500 which is 5754 and 501 is 6169 on the

[Bill from Maspeth]

On 7/3/2022 at 2:13 PM, Amiri the subway guy said:

Look at least it’s not like the bitchy ass  riders and Malcom smith with the R32s R40Ms and R46s. Furthermore CBTC on Astoria should be consider. In my suggestion I kept the R68s for failsafe reasons through on 2028 it’s say to have all CBTC trains by then. With the ongoing car shortage I wished the MTA kept some R38s and R32 Phase 2s. The  tunnel cancellation was done to appease whiny impatient Williamburg communters. Now it will have to be fixed again in 5-10 years instead of the 50 year time frame if they just gotten it over with. 
 

1620 R211s should be enough to share on the  

The Phase 2 R32's were TERRIBLE cars and NYCT was correct in getting rid of them as quickly as they did.  Are you a Train Operator like me who operated that junk?  The NY Air Brake system on those cars would stick while in the lap position.  Plus, upon releasing the brakes in leaving stations they tended to keep 10 lbs. of air.  We would have to put the valve into full release instead of running release to bleed off the air, which technically was not the proper way to operate when the electric brake was working.  If you are a train operator you would know exactly what I'm talking about!  

Didn't it seem strange to you that the newer Phase 2 R32's were retired before the Phase 1's?  That should have given you a hint that there was something wrong with the fleet.

 

On 7/3/2022 at 1:16 PM, Amiri the subway guy said:

Meanwhile the  gets the R211As 

R211Ts go to   
 

The R68s and R68As will still be kept in storage for failsafe measures

Yard space is finite, not infinite.

 

On 7/3/2022 at 7:27 PM, Storm said:

It’s stupid that the MTA didn’t consider doing CBTC on the whole of broadway. Broadway, in my opinion, needs CBTC more than Astoria. My take. Carry on.

Aren't you and everybody else hyping over the Astoria Line CBTC are aware that the long range plan is to get CBTC throughout the entire system?  Isn't it logical to do one section at a time, test it, then do another section?  The E and F trains are getting CBTC in sections, so why not the N/W and the rest of the Broadway subway?  Then the branch lines south of DeKalb, 36/4th, then 59/4?  Whatever ever order they want to do it in is up to the planners.

[FLX9304]

5 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

They are not the oldest cars. The has some the oldest R46. When the R46s were renumbered, They were mixed up. The only cars that didn't really get mixed up are the A-A sets which are the newest cars. 

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1l6kZ05gU-4fMhf5rc9GX5igW6d97vq9_nn0WSJkNTxM/pub?single=true&gid=6&output=html

 

 

Didn’t some cars (other than 941 & 1054) got into mishaps and scrapped?

[Bill from Maspeth]

16 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

Didn’t some cars (other than 941 & 1054) got into mishaps and scrapped?

nycsubway.org: Main Page 

The above page is your friend.  Please access it as it has important information and the answer to your question.

 

The following additional R46's are retired: 6062 (original #928); 6150 (764); 6151 (795) with 6214 (1234)  being used as a parts car.  Why?  Because 6212 (1232) took the place of 6062 leaving 6214 without a mate.   So that set is now 6212-6063 (1029)-6065 (719)-6064 (1104). Additionally we have 6152 (982)-6153 (523)-6207 (1227)-6206 (1226), taking the place of original 1054/941  + 6150/51.  

 

[subwaycommuter1983]

1 hour ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Aren't you and everybody else hyping over the Astoria Line CBTC are aware that the long range plan is to get CBTC throughout the entire system?  Isn't it logical to do one section at a time, test it, then do another section?  The E and F trains are getting CBTC in sections, so why not the N/W and the rest of the Broadway subway?  Then the branch lines south of DeKalb, 36/4th, then 59/4?  Whatever ever order they want to do it in is up to the planners.

In that case, they should do (which they already are-QBL/8th Avenue)  CBTC on sections that have high ridership first, like 6th Avenue and Lexington.

The MTA tends to cater to high income neighborhoods. If the MTA scraps 6th Avenue CBTC in favor of Astoria CBTC, then their being biased. 

[trainfan22]

10 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

 

The MTA tends to cater to high income neighborhoods. If the MTA scraps 6th Avenue CBTC in favor of Astoria CBTC, then their being biased. 

I'm pretty sure the neighborhoods south of midtown along the 6th Ave routes in Manhattan have higher incomes on average than Astoria (except for maybe Chinatown.. served by Grand Street on the B/D).

 

I don't think the "MTA favors to wealthy people" argument can really be applied to the subway as many subway routes serve both wealthy and lower income neighborhoods.

[Prospect]

2 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

In that case, they should do (which they already are-QBL/8th Avenue)  CBTC on sections that have high ridership first, like 6th Avenue and Lexington.

The MTA tends to cater to high income neighborhoods. If the MTA scraps 6th Avenue CBTC in favor of Astoria CBTC, then their being biased. 

Objectively, the regions chosen to get CBTC first are the ones where the TPH value is highest and/or which will benefit the system before other areas are brought online. I highly doubt the Astoria Line will ever see CBTC before 6th Avenue does...

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 hours ago, Prospect said:

Objectively, the regions chosen to get CBTC first are the ones where the TPH value is highest and/or which will benefit the system before other areas are brought online. I highly doubt the Astoria Line will ever see CBTC before 6th Avenue does...

I will agree. I’m pretty sure 6th Ave will get CBTC before Astoria. Even if Astoria is back on the list. I mean, unless they plan to replace  service in Queens with an 8 train that runs via the  line between Queensboro Plaza and Hudson Yards. But that wouldn’t make much sense now, would it?

11 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

They are not the oldest cars. The has some the oldest R46. When the R46s were renumbered, They were mixed up. The only cars that didn't really get mixed up are the A-A sets which are the newest cars. 

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1l6kZ05gU-4fMhf5rc9GX5igW6d97vq9_nn0WSJkNTxM/pub?single=true&gid=6&output=html

 

 

Yes, so we’re probably going to see older and newer R46s scrapped together. No real way around that.

7 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

The Phase 2 R32's were TERRIBLE cars and NYCT was correct in getting rid of them as quickly as they did.  Are you a Train Operator like me who operated that junk?  The NY Air Brake system on those cars would stick while in the lap position.  Plus, upon releasing the brakes in leaving stations they tended to keep 10 lbs. of air.  We would have to put the valve into full release instead of running release to bleed off the air, which technically was not the proper way to operate when the electric brake was working.  If you are a train operator you would know exactly what I'm talking about!  

Didn't it seem strange to you that the newer Phase 2 R32's were retired before the Phase 1's?  That should have given you a hint that there was something wrong with the fleet.

I thought both Phase 1 and Phase 2 R32s were a mix of older and newer R32 cars. At least that’s what nycsubway.org’s R32 page says.

Edited July 5, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[R32 3838]

Just now, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I will agree. I’m pretty sure 6th Ave will get CBTC before Astoria. Even if Astoria is back on the list. I mean, unless they plan to replace  service with an 8 train that runs via the  line between Queensboro Plaza and Hudson Yards. But that wouldn’t make much sense now, would it?

Yes, so we’re probably going to see older and newer R46s scrapped together. 

I thought both Phase 1 and Phase 2 R32s were a mix of older and newer R32 cars. At least that’s what nycsubway.org’s R32 page says.

Phase I and Phase II cars are a mix of cars. He was referring to when the Phase II's were rebuilt which was after the Phase I's

[CenSin]

15 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Yard space is finite, not infinite.

That anything could be infinite typifies one of the following kinds of people:

* Ivory tower mathematicians

* Theoretical physicists

* Economists (whose field is pretty much all theory and no substance—so no qualifier needed)

* People who have never done any kind of accounting, logistics, or inventory

Edited July 5, 2022 by CenSin

[Prospect]

Let's not use that man's (BillfromMaspeth) words against him, he was referring to yard space, nothing less, nothing more.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

18 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

Phase I and Phase II cars are a mix of cars. He was referring to when the Phase II's were rebuilt which was after the Phase I's

 

On 7/4/2022 at 4:26 PM, Bill from Maspeth said:

The Phase 2 R32's were TERRIBLE cars and NYCT was correct in getting rid of them as quickly as they did.  Are you a Train Operator like me who operated that junk?  The NY Air Brake system on those cars would stick while in the lap position.  Plus, upon releasing the brakes in leaving stations they tended to keep 10 lbs. of air.  We would have to put the valve into full release instead of running release to bleed off the air, which technically was not the proper way to operate when the electric brake was working.  If you are a train operator you would know exactly what I'm talking about!  

Didn't it seem strange to you that the newer Phase 2 R32's were retired before the Phase 1's?  That should have given you a hint that there was something wrong with the fleet.

It did seem strange, but not all that surprising when you see the MTA’s long history of messing things up. It’s kind of sad really, because the R32s were sent to MK for rebuilding starting with the worst performing cars, which were not necessarily the oldest. So the worst cars went out as part of Phase 1 and many became the better performers post-GOH. All while many of the better performing pre-GOH R32s became the worse performers after being sent out as part of Phase 2. Not good at all for the Phase 2 cars and maybe it didn’t have to be that way.

I can see why they might’ve sent the R32s out for rebuilding in two phases. It was a large car fleet. But why use different master controllers and brake packages in the different phases? Did the problems with the Phase 2 cars show up early on after GOH, or years later?

Edited July 5, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[rbrome]

The MTA teased the R211s on Instagram today: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfoqyoILoMX/?hl=en 

[R32 3838]

It wouldn't surprise me if they stick with the summer date even tough they said that the 30 day in passenger test might be delayed until fall.

[VIP]

I don’t Know if that model is gonna pass testing… the brakes are horrible.

[Bill from Maspeth]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:00 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

It did seem strange, but not all that surprising when you see the MTA’s long history of messing things up. It’s kind of sad really, because the R32s were sent to MK for rebuilding starting with the worst performing cars, which were not necessarily the oldest. So the worst cars went out as part of Phase 1 and many became the better performers post-GOH. All while many of the better performing pre-GOH R32s became the worse performers after being sent out as part of Phase 2. Not good at all for the Phase 2 cars and maybe it didn’t have to be that way.

I can see why they might’ve sent the R32s out for rebuilding in two phases. It was a large car fleet. But why use different master controllers and brake packages in the different phases? Did the problems with the Phase 2 cars show up early on after GOH, or years later?

The problems with the NY Air Brake Valve were shown in about 10 R42's that were converted to that package to try it out.  I was working the D at that time, late 80's/early 90's.  Our concerns were ignored.  Then about 10 years later, they used NYAB and they were sorry.  IDK if NYCT decided on the NYAB package + the Westinghouse Controller for half the R32's or that decision was made by M/K.   The New York Air Brake System works fine on the R46 however. 

 

On 7/5/2022 at 7:59 AM, CenSin said:

That anything could be infinite typifies one of the following kinds of people:

* Ivory tower mathematicians

* Theoretical physicists

* Economists (whose field is pretty much all theory and no substance—so no qualifier needed)

* People who have never done any kind of accounting, logistics, or inventory

We're not talking about people, we are talking about how many cars can fit on each track of our yards.  Every train yard has a certain capacity.

 

On 7/4/2022 at 11:37 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I will agree. I’m pretty sure 6th Ave will get CBTC before Astoria. Even if Astoria is back on the list. I mean, unless they plan to replace  service in Queens with an 8 train that runs via the  line between Queensboro Plaza and Hudson Yards. But that wouldn’t make much sense now, would it?

Yes, so we’re probably going to see older and newer R46s scrapped together. No real way around that.

I thought both Phase 1 and Phase 2 R32s were a mix of older and newer R32 cars. At least that’s what nycsubway.org’s R32 page says.

Newer and older as in when they arrived at NYCTA brand new.  However they went out for GOH according to need.  That goes fpor every car that got GOH'ed.

[trainfan22]

1 hour ago, VIP said:

I don’t Know if that model is gonna pass testing… the brakes are horrible.

The R62 and R68A have horrible brakes and well..... 

 

 

From I've gathered over the years, it's funny how the worst braking SMEE fleets in each division were made by Kawasaki (R62 and R68A) . The R143 & R160s are alright from what I understand, as long as the rails are dry, performance goes downhill in the rain & snow. In all fairness the R179 made by Bombardier of course by have the same problems in wet weather as the Kawasaki built NTT from what I heard.

 

It's crazy how NYCT engineering or whoever's is responsible for designing the trains can't get none of the NTT car classes to have decent braking in inclement weather. Since you mention that the brakes are horrible I'm assuming the crappy performance on wet rails is a problem on the R211 just like it is with the previous NTT fleets. 

 

Ethier way if it's an safety issue I'm sure it will be corrected. Brand new SMEE fleets are before my time so I was only around for R142 and newer and railfans panicked at the slightest hiccups/teething issues in the testing process, some even celebrated as it meant the old stuff would be sticking around longer lol. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by trainfan22

[Calvin]

On 6/29/2022 at 11:14 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Let's cross our fingers that we don't end up with a car shortage like in DC.

A car shortage in the B division will also impact the A division because a lot of riders will jam pack the number lines in order to avoid riding the letter lines, which will cause the number lines to run slower.

Car storage on the A Division is pretty decent recently. Even as almost each number line has its own Yard Lines: 1, 3 and 6, they have leftovers in group of 5-6 with the 4 and 7 lines in spares of 8. Only line that's pooled that doesn't have much is the 5, mated with the 2 as they share trains. Also, A Division gets jammed if there's a gap in service or delays forcing other commuters to have to wait for the next train b/c of capacity difference from the lettered side. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Calvin

[subwaycommuter1983]

20 hours ago, Calvin said:

Car storage on the A Division is pretty decent recently. Even as almost each number line has its own Yard Lines: 1, 3 and 6, they have leftovers in group of 5-6 with the 4 and 7 lines in spares of 8. Only line that's pooled that doesn't have much is the 5, mated with the 2 as they share trains. Also, A Division gets jammed if there's a gap in service or delays forcing other commuters to have to wait for the next train b/c of capacity difference from the lettered side. 

It's good to know that the A division is in good shape in regards to the number of subway cars available.

Will it be enough to handle the influx of riders who will avoid riding the B division lines in event of a massive car shortage in the B division?? That's the tricky part.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

12 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

It's good to know that the A division is in good shape in regards to the number of subway cars available.

Will it be enough to handle the influx of riders who will avoid riding the B division lines in event of a massive car shortage in the B division?? That's the tricky part.

Well, let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. Let’s hope the MTA and Kawasaki do all they can to make sure the R211s don’t have problem after problem like the R179s did (although they seem to be doing better now). 

[Trainmaster5]

7 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Well, let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. Let’s hope the MTA and Kawasaki do all they can to make sure the R211s don’t have problem after problem like the R179s did (although they seem to be doing better now). 

Better look at the LIRR and the Kawasaki M9 car order. I wouldn't place too much trust in that company at the moment. Carry on.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:49 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Better look at the LIRR and the Kawasaki M9 car order. I wouldn't place too much trust in that company at the moment. Carry on.

That and the WMATA 7000-series fleet. Although WMATA was worse off, because the need to sideline the 7000s practically paralyzed DC’s Metro. What happened to Kawasaki? They used to make such reliable trains. We never had these problems with the R62s, R68As or any of the pre-R211 New Tech trains. 

Can the MTA legally award the contract for the option order R211s to Alstom or another company?