R211 Discussion Thread

[Far Rock Depot]

Although they were articulated trains, I wouldn't really call them "open gangways".

 

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[Dj Hammers]

The C types were true open gangway cars in the same sense that the R211s will be.

[Amtrak41]

Why didn't they simply specify them all to be open gangway, except for the SIR version ?

[rbrome]

Why didn't they simply specify them all to be open gangway, except for the SIR version ?

 

 

At the MTA board meeting, they did address this. Check out the YouTube video of the MTA board meeting that I linked to a few posts back. The speech was basically: "We really love and want open gangways. They're the future. But suppliers have told us that it will take extra time to develop those designs; standard cars can be delivered faster. New cars ASAP is our priority."

[AdonisDimaggio]

Can someone explain to me please how the open gangway R211 is supposed to run on curves?

[Fresh Pond]

Can someone explain to me please how the open gangway R211 is supposed to run on curves?

Think of it as an articulated bus. Generally the same exact concept, except with a train instead

[AdonisDimaggio]

So im guessing its gonna have something like pivots at the side then.

[Around the Horn]

So im guessing its gonna have something like pivots at the side then.

 

Well here's two photos of the joint on London's S stock and one in the shop disconnected. Hopefully they help you understand what the joint looks like.

 

 

[AdonisDimaggio]

I get it now. Thought that the MTA didn't want to use those kind of pivots.

[Eric B]

The C types were true open gangway cars in the same sense that the R211s will be.

Weren't those articulated just like the others?

[rbrome]

Weren't those articulated just like the others?

 

 

To the passenger, it was very similar. The old cars had more of a narrow metal box you walked through. It will be a wider passage using some some sort of flexible materials on the R211. (Although, unfortunately, it won't be as wide as on most cars overseas, from what I've heard.)

 

In terms of the mechanical train design, there is actually a big difference between "articulated" and "open gangway". The Triplexes were truly "articulated", which means cars share trucks, which are located directly underneath the joint between cars. "Open gangway" technically means a more standard car design, where each car has its own two trucks.

 

A truly articulated design, which shared trucks, could never work in today's NYCT system for a number of reasons, the primary one being clearances.

[Amtrak41]

I can't imagine the offset with that sort of joint when getting through one of those tight reverse curve switches on the Eastern Division.

[LTA1992]

Weren't those articulated just like the others?

It was going to be, but like with most things the BRT changed its mind. All they got were provisions for the conversion.

[Around the Horn]

The C types had open gangways? I never knew that! Cool

 

Speaking of which, does anyone have access to the R211 RFP documents? I know SEPTA makes theirs public but I don't think the MTA does. I'd be very interested to see the specs for the open gangway and the external signage.

[Eric B]

I had forgotten the C types were rebuilt el cars; I thought all the BMT experimentals were articulated, sharing trucks. Here http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_BMT_Fleet_(Elevated,_Subway,_Experimental)#C_Typessays they removed the gates, so I guess that would make them open gangways.

[paulrivera]

The C types had open gangways? I never knew that! Cool

 

Speaking of which, does anyone have access to the R211 RFP documents? I know SEPTA makes theirs public but I don't think the MTA does. I'd be very interested to see the specs for the open gangway and the external signage.

This is the closest thing I could find....

[rbrome]

There's some interesting stuff in there, including requirements that the cars be compatible with wireless platform CCTV cameras (which could enable OPTO), provisions for platform doors, and this note about interior displays:

 

"A minimum of 12 displays per car, 6 per side, shall be provided, which shall be at least 12 inches (305 mm) high and 46 inches (l ,168 mm) wide."

[Bosco]

There's some interesting stuff in there, including requirements that the cars be compatible with wireless platform CCTV cameras (which could enable OPTO), provisions for platform doors, and this note about interior displays:

 

"A minimum of 12 displays per car, 6 per side, shall be provided, which shall be at least 12 inches (305 mm) high and 46 inches (l ,168 mm) wide."

 

Good luck with getting the unions to be okay with that.  At least one crew member is required per 300 feet--cameras have nothing to do with it.  Even with the cameras, I would feel more comfortable with more crew members in case of an emergency (sick customer, etc).

 

Speaking of digital displays, is there any chance that the ads will also be digital?

[HenryB]

OPTO is not impossible, but if you look at the systems with >300 feet trains and OPTO, there are control rooms on the platforms to assist train crew members in case of emergency 

[Around the Horn]

Yeah, I think they want a portion of the ads to be digital. From the measurements, it seems they want the roofline ads to be digital.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I had forgotten the C types were rebuilt el cars; I thought all the BMT experimentals were articulated, sharing trucks. Here http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_BMT_Fleet_(Elevated,_Subway,_Experimental)#C_Typessays they removed the gates, so I guess that would make them open gangways.

I thought they enclosed the ends of the open-gate el cars.

[LTA1992]

To the passenger, it was very similar. The old cars had more of a narrow metal box you walked through. It will be a wider passage using some some sort of flexible materials on the R211. (Although, unfortunately, it won't be as wide as on most cars overseas, from what I've heard.)

 

In terms of the mechanical train design, there is actually a big difference between "articulated" and "open gangway". The Triplexes were truly "articulated", which means cars share trucks, which are located directly underneath the joint between cars. "Open gangway" technically means a more standard car design, where each car has its own two trucks.

 

A truly articulated design, which shared trucks, could never work in today's NYCT system for a number of reasons, the primary one being clearances.

How when the BMT portions ran articulated cars and the IND tunnels are of similar width? How can clearances possibly be an issue when the system was already modified to fit in 75 foot cars?

[rbrome]

First, let me apologize for possibly mixing up "Triplexes" (AKA "D-Types") with "C-Types". I hadn't heard the term "C-Type" before. C-Types were apparently open-gangway of sorts. Triplexes were articulated. 

 

As for why articulated can't work in NYC, I'd upload a sketch if I could figure out how to upload any images to this forum. It's much easier to explain visually. 

 

But I'll try:

 

1. Curves require wider tunnels because part of the train moves away from the center of the track.
2. On a traditional (two-truck) car, the difference is split; the center of the car shifts toward the inside of the curve, while the ends shifts toward the outside of the curve. 
3. With an articulated train, all of the shift is toward the inside of the curves. Therefore, given the same car length, the shift is much greater. The inside of each curve would require greater clearance. 
4. The Triplexes were only 45 feet long.

So... technically, if the MTA decided to run 45-foot cars again — with more cars to keep the train length comparable — perhaps it could work. But I think that'd be a tough sell. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by rbrome

[Far Rock Depot]

How when the BMT portions ran articulated cars and the IND tunnels are of similar width? How can clearances possibly be an issue when the system was already modified to fit in 75 foot cars?

Its not about the tunnels but more the tolerances of the articulation of the cars without the cars sharing a truck.

 

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[Gong Gahou]

Its not about the tunnels but more the tolerances of the articulation of the cars without the cars sharing a truck.

I don't think I fully understand what you're saying. Do you mean the maximum degree of track curvature a 60-foot articulated car can handle before excessive weight distribution will cause it to topple over?

 

 

 

...I'd upload a sketch if I could figure out how to upload any images to this forum.

You need to first upload your image(s) to an image hosting website so that other computers can see those images via the internet. Flickr and Imgur are two examples of them. This forum also has an image hosting service: on the site navigation tabs, click on "Gallery" and upload your photos there - but keep in mind that all submissions are subject to review by the mods and they can reject your submission if it doesn't fit in the categories listed.

 

Next, you need to look for and copy the direct link to the image. You will know it's the direct link when the end of the URL on your browser is an image file format (some examples are bmp, jpg, png, or gif), and also when your browser shows only the image and nothing else. With the latest version of Firefox and Google Chrome, you can also grab the link by right-clicking the image and copying the image address/location.

 

Your final step is to display the photo on this forum. The simple way is to use the toolbar/ribbon on top every time you post: hover your mouse over to a green rectangle enclosed by a white square (2nd row, 11th icon from the left; the word "Image" will appear in a second when you leave your mouse over it), click on it, paste the direct link in the URL rectangle, click OK, and that's it. That image will immediately appear.

 

The more technical way (and is the method I use) is to manually type up the BBCode (which is what this forum uses). For instance, if your direct link is:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8713/27776427174_57d9bfeb51_o.jpg

then this is how it would look after you add in the extra code:

[img=https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8713/27776427174_57d9bfeb51_o.jpg]

Pasting the latter into your post would, in turn, display the image:

(courtesy of MTAPhotos)