R211 Discussion Thread

[Around the Horn]

So SIR would be able to run at more frequent intervals you mean? Because the current 15 minutes headways drive me insane.

I doubt that. SIR (and the majority of the Staten Island bus system) is timed to meet the ferry.

[P3F]

I doubt that. SIR (and the majority of the Staten Island bus system) is timed to meet the ferry.

St. George has more than enough capacity to turn more trains per hour. The schedule may need shifting, though, to allow for both express and local service to continue.

Edited April 18, 2017 by P3F

[Around the Horn]

St. George has more than enough capacity to turn more trains per hour. The schedule may need shifting, though, to allow for both express and local service to continue.

Well, yes of course. I'm just saying its unlikely they increase frequency becasue then they can't guarantee ferry connections anymore.

[P3F]

Well, yes of course. I'm just saying its unlikely they increase frequency becasue then they can't guarantee ferry connections anymore.

Presumably, the new trains would fit in between the currently scheduled trains. Essentially, instead of one express and one local train meeting each ferry, it would be two express and two local trains meeting them.

[Around the Horn]

Presumably, the new trains would fit in between the currently scheduled trains. Essentially, instead of one express and one local train meeting each ferry, it would be two express and two local trains meeting them.

Ah, I see. I didn't see your previous post (which I am quoting below).

 

Currently, the headways are:

 

Rush Hours:

Expresses operate every 15 minutes; 4TPH

Locals operate every 15 minutes; 4TPH

 

Middays, Evenings, Nights, and Weekends:

Local trains operate every 30 minutes; 2TPH

 

These headways are mostly consistent with those of the Staten Island Ferry. Thus, any kind of service increase would cater to people who do not currently pay a fare, since the current headways are adequate for ferry users. Personally, I believe that before running more frequent service, the SIR should install fare controls at all its stations, so that the people benefiting from the increased service are actually putting money into the system.

 

Many stations already have station houses, so it wouldn't be too difficult to install fare controls into them. (That's assuming they keep the old station houses; at Grasmere they demolished the old one before building a brand new one.)

 

Some stations have no station house at all; building one without any structural changes to the station would cost around $7 million (since that was the cost of the brand new station house that was built at Tompkinsville a few years ago.) However, it is not easy to build a station house at all stations; some would require structural changes in order to accomodate one.

 

Finally, there is the issue of hiring station agents. The has shown that a station agent is not needed for every station, since the Tompkinsville station house is unstaffed with the emergency exit being controlled from St. George. The amount of agents needed depends on how many stations one agent is expected to control; if one agent controls two stations, then half of the stations need agents. If one agent can control three stations, a third of the stations need agents.

I honestly don't think you need station agents or even station houses. With the new fare system coming, we could just have Proof-of-Payment with validators akin to the London Overground and roaming fare inspectors.

[P3F]

Ah, I see. I didn't see your previous post (which I am quoting below).

 

I honestly don't think you need station agents or even station houses. With the new fare system coming, we could just have Proof-of-Payment with validators akin to the London Overground and roaming fare inspectors.

Proof of Payment only encourages fare-beating, in my opinion. In addition, it would be hard to implement because not everybody keeps up with the news, and someone whose commute was previously free may not realize that they have to pay now, and get busted for that once they are checked for a proof of payment ticket.

Edited April 18, 2017 by P3F

[Lawrence St]

You don't lose a connection the ferry, if the TPH intervals were bumped up to 8 TPH, you would only have to wait 5-10 minutes depending on what the ferry schedule is.

[LTA1992]

Ah, I see. I didn't see your previous post (which I am quoting below).

 

I honestly don't think you need station agents or even station houses. With the new fare system coming, we could just have Proof-of-Payment with validators akin to the London Overground and roaming fare inspectors.

I was just going to make this same statement. Install fare readers so you can charge the fare without the need for too much extra staff. You can then have a third transfer for those making connections from other modes on either side of the SIR trip.

 

Also, wanna deter farebeating? INCREASE THE FINE. Increase it to a ridiculous amount and catch a few people to make an example. Show you mean business and it should slow down.

 

I don't think it will ever outright stop, but the threat of having to pay 500+ for fare evasion should be a huge deterrent. Especially if you make it so that if you don't pay it, then there would be a warrant out for your arrest. Again, actively seek a few of those offenders out just to make an example.

 

Fear sells and if people are scared into paying, by all means.

Edited April 18, 2017 by LTA1992

[rbrome]

Reports from today's MTA meetings:

 

https://twitter.com/danrivoli/status/856522249951735809

https://twitter.com/danrivoli/status/856524068866203648

 

And here is the video, starting at about 49:24:

https://youtu.be/i-OhoZBZE04?t=49m24s

 

In sum, changing the first batch from 435 cars to 535 cars. These are all closed-end except for one prototype train, because those can be delivered faster than open-gangway cars, and time is of the essence. The breakdown is 450 standard cars + 75 SIR cars + one (10-car) open-gangway prototype. Delivery starting in 2020. 

 

They're also confirming that the second part of the order will be 640 open-gangway cars, with delivery starting in 2023. Technically still an option, but it sounds very firm. 

 

Finally, they want to accelerate testing to get cars into service faster. This means a second text track and extra testing shifts. 

[Around the Horn]

Reports from today's MTA meetings:

 

https://twitter.com/danrivoli/status/856522249951735809

https://twitter.com/danrivoli/status/856524068866203648

 

And here is the video, starting at about 49:24:

https://youtu.be/i-OhoZBZE04?t=49m24s

 

In sum, changing the first batch from 435 cars to 535 cars. These are all closed-end except for one prototype train, because those can be delivered faster than open-gangway cars, and time is of the essence. The breakdown is 450 standard cars + 75 SIR cars + one (10-car) open-gangway prototype. Delivery starting in 2020. 

 

They're also confirming that the second part of the order will be 640 open-gangway cars, with delivery starting in 2023. Technically still an option, but it sounds very firm. 

 

Finally, they want to accelerate testing to get cars into service faster. This means a second text track and extra testing shifts. 

 

Most likely Sea Beach and Rockaway simultaneously.

[LTA1992]

Two things. The first is that I'm glad the MTA is moving forward with this design. But really, was there any doubt the tests would succeed? This is the same MTA that managed to squeeze 75 foot cars into tunnels built for 60 and 67 foot cars.

 

Secondly, I hate when people act like terrorism is something that should stop this progress. As if London hasn't ACTUALLY had their trains blown up. Meanwhile, the S Stock arrived a few years later and the NewTube For London will also feature the design.

[RFWLover]

I seriously don't think that we will see these cars until 2025

[rbrome]

... This means a second text track and extra testing shifts. 

 

 

I meant TEST track, obviously. 

[Union Tpke]

Reports from today's MTA meetings:

 

https://twitter.com/danrivoli/status/856522249951735809

https://twitter.com/danrivoli/status/856524068866203648

 

And here is the video, starting at about 49:24:

https://youtu.be/i-OhoZBZE04?t=49m24s

 

In sum, changing the first batch from 435 cars to 535 cars. These are all closed-end except for one prototype train, because those can be delivered faster than open-gangway cars, and time is of the essence. The breakdown is 450 standard cars + 75 SIR cars + one (10-car) open-gangway prototype. Delivery starting in 2020. 

 

They're also confirming that the second part of the order will be 640 open-gangway cars, with delivery starting in 2023. Technically still an option, but it sounds very firm. 

 

Finally, they want to accelerate testing to get cars into service faster. This means a second text track and extra testing shifts. 

 

How does the math add up?

The last time I checked, the base order consisted of 285 cars (75 SIR, 10 test, and 200 base cars) with a 740 car option.

If the first batch is 535 cars, and there is a 640 car option, then there will be 1175 cars. This doesn't make any sense.

[rbrome]

How does the math add up?

The last time I checked, the base order consisted of 285 cars (75 SIR, 10 test, and 200 base cars) with a 740 car option.

If the first batch is 535 cars, and there is a 640 car option, then there will be 1175 cars. This doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Sorry, it's actually "up to 640" open-gangway cars. So I interpret that as a "minimum" option of 490 cars, and the maximum is 640. 

[IAlam]

Most likely Sea Beach and Rockaway simultaneously.

How can they test on Sea Beach during construction?

[danielhg121]

How can they test on Sea Beach during construction?

 

Uhh by then construction will be over.......well hopefully. Delivery of R211s doesn't start till years later, so that track will be open by then.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[Around the Horn]

How can they test on Sea Beach during construction?

If we are talking the R211s, the rehab will be done by then.

 

As for the R179s, a rumor was going around that they'll start using the Brighton Express tracks on weekends.

[IAlam]

Uhh by then construction will be over.......well hopefully. Delivery of R211s doesn't start till years later, so that track will be open by then.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Maybe my expectations for the MTA are too low lmao.

[BreeddekalbL]

I want to know what is making open gangways the fad in north america again?

Edited April 25, 2017 by BreeddekalbL

[Around the Horn]

I want to know what is making open gangways the fad in north america again?

 

The fact that they are used everywhere else in the world and provide 10% extra capacity.

[LTA1992]

I want to know what is making open gangways the fad in north america again?

It's alo not a fat. In stead a necessary evolution that should have occurred when the New Millennium trains were designed.

[Deucey]

Weren't there trains with open gangways in the subway in the 40s and 50s?

[bobtehpanda]

Weren't there trains with open gangways in the subway in the 40s and 50s?

 

They were being tested by the BMT. However, the IND was much more conservative with technology choice compared to the BMT (which, among other things, led the effort to create the PCC Streetcar), so the IND stopped that upon the recapture of the BMT.

[rbrome]

Weren't there trains with open gangways in the subway in the 40s and 50s?

 

 

The Triplexes! You can walk through one at the Transit Museum.