R211 Discussion Thread

[HenryB]

An R143 set has apparently been retrofitted to collect data for open gangway cars (the future R211T). Several people spotted it on Astoria, Broadway and 4th Avenue last week.

 

 

Brilliant idea! So we don't have to wait 20 more years to see more T cars 

[Far Rock Depot]

Brilliant idea! So we don't have to wait 20 more years to see more T cars

Its more like they need measurements now so they can design and order the prototype and will have a better chance of fitting. It the prototype works then one of the option orders would be for T cars. What 20year wait?

 

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[Tech And Transit]

The equipment installed in the gangway between 8270 and 8271 is quite interesting. Video below:

[HenryB]

 

Looks like this type of gangway connection is popular in Japan. I wonder such connection could be equipped on regular R211, or even existing NTTs.

It is not open gangway, but at least people could move between cars safely. It could help distribute the cword.

 

 

[Train92]

Maybe they can also put actual gangways on the or lines.

[R143 8277]

Why specifically the and the ?

[Union Tpke]

Because they are so overcrowded.

[Around the Horn]

Because they are so overcrowded.

 

I say build more substations to increase the overall electrical capacity of those two lines and run more trains before giving them open gangway trains just yet.

[RR503]

I say build more substations to increase the overall electrical capacity of those two lines and run more trains before giving them open gangway trains just yet.

Is that the limiting factor? I was under the impression that it was the terminals (esp. on the ) 

[bobtehpanda]

I say build more substations to increase the overall electrical capacity of those two lines and run more trains before giving them open gangway trains just yet.

 

The doesn't actually need the electrical capacity, IIRC.

 

Is that the limiting factor? I was under the impression that it was the terminals (esp. on the ) 

 

The terminals are the overarching cap, but no, the does not have enough electrical capacity for the terminal limit of 26 TPH.

Edited April 7, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[Far Rock Depot]

Why specifically the and the ?

Because they are so overcrowded.

Is that the limiting factor? I was under the impression that it was the terminals (esp. on the )

well, i know they were chosen for cbtc first for their lack of interlining routes. But given that the 7 is A division, the reason the L most likely wasn't chosen is that overall ridership on the A is higher, with a linger route. And a must higher range of passenger patterns, interlining and switching. As far as closed gangways, the MTA deters people from moving between cars. And the whole point of their interest in open gangways is safety and higher capacity

 

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Edited April 7, 2017 by Far Rock Depot

[Around the Horn]

What will the numbers on the R211 be? 

 

For instance 8888 is a R160 .

 

We have no idea what the numbers are at this point. Heck, we don't even know the manufacturer yet...

 

However, this is theoretically how it could play out:

 

Well the R179s end at 3309, so it is likely the first R211 is 3310 or 3311, which means the last base car would be 3519 or 3520, assuming the SIR cars are numbered separately. With the first option exercised, the last car would be 4259 or 4260. With all options exercised the last car would be 4779 or 4780.

 

It is potentially likely that the SIR cars continue the trend of three digit numbers, so 500-574 or 501-575. It is also possible that the R211S adopt the PATH PA5 convention of A cars and B cars being numbered in separate number series. This could result in two different scenarios: A cars: 500-538 B cars: 600-635 or A cars: 600-638 B cars: 500-535.

(assuming the number of A cars stays at 39 and the number of B cars increases from 24 to 36)

 

Once again, this is all conjecture...

Edited April 9, 2017 by Around the Horn

[agar io]

What will the numbers on the R211 be? 

 

For instance 8888 is a R160 .

We have no idea what the numbers are at this point. Heck, we don't even know the manufacturer yet...

 

However, this is theoretically how it could play out:

 

Well the R179s end at 3309, so it is likely the first R211 is 3310 or 3311, which means the last base car would be 3519 or 3520, assuming the SIR cars are numbered separately. With the first option exercised, the last car would be 4259 or 4260. With all options exercised the last car would be 4779 or 4780.

 

It is potentially likely that the SIR cars continue the trend of three digit numbers, so 500-574 or 501-575. It is also possible that the R211S adopt the PATH PA5 convention of A cars and B cars being numbered in separate number series. This could result in two different scenarios: A cars: 500-538 B cars: 600-635 or A cars: 600-638 B cars: 500-535.

(assuming the number of A cars stays at 39 and the number of B cars increases from 24 to 36)

 

Once again, this is all conjecture...

 

Here's a list of 1000-9999 fleet numbers that are used up:

• R44SIR: 388–466 (including even-only pairs from 436 on)
• R142: 1101–1250
• R62: 1301–1625
• R62A: 1651–2475
• R68: 2500–2924
• R179: 3010-3309
• R32: 3350–3949 (many retired) (excluding that mismatched 3348 pair, which I think is scrapped too)
• R42: 4550–4949 (many retired)
• R68: 5001–5200
• R46: 5482–6258 (including even-only pairs from 6208 on)
• R142 again: 6301–7180
• R142A and R188: 7211–7936
• R143: 8101–8312
• R160 (all types): 8313–9974

I think the MTA will do one of the following:

• 1. Use fleet numbers 3950 to 4999, plus smaller range that covers 3310–3949 (the R32s), since R42s will all be retired by then
• 2. Use mostly three-digit numbers, plus smaller range in the four-digits
• 3. Use five-digit numbers, scrapping the 4-digit completely.

[Union Tpke]

 

 

Here's a list of 1000-9999 fleet numbers that are used up:

• R44SIR: 388–466 (including even-only pairs from 436 on)
• R142: 1101–1250
• R62: 1301–1625
• R62A: 1651–2475
• R68: 2500–2924
• R179: 3010-3309
• R32: 3350–3949 (many retired) (excluding that mismatched 3348 pair, which I think is scrapped too)
• R42: 4550–4949 (many retired)
• R68: 5001–5200
• R46: 5482–6258 (including even-only pairs from 6208 on)
• R142 again: 6301–7180
• R142A and R188: 7211–7936
• R143: 8101–8312
• R160 (all types): 8313–9974

I think the MTA will do one of the following:

• 1. Use fleet numbers 3950 to 4999, plus smaller range that covers 3310–3949 (the R32s), since R42s will all be retired by then
• 2. Use mostly three-digit numbers, plus smaller range in the four-digits
• 3. Use five-digit numbers, scrapping the 4-digit completely.

 

 

Why on earth would they go to three-digit or five-digit numbers? They aren't going to have more than 10,000 subway cars for the foreseeable future.

[Far Rock Depot]

Why on earth would they go to three-digit or five-digit numbers? They aren't going to have more than 10,000 subway cars for the foreseeable future.

Its never really about the number of cars they have at one time. They've used 3-digit numbers before. The current fleet numbers end just below 10000. Even with cars retiring, its still leaves their options open. SI could revert to the low hundreds, given the 211 contract could see over 1000, cars, seeing them start at 500 with the mainline fleet is theoretically possible. 5-digit numbers are less likely, but not impossible.

 

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[Lawrence St]

I'm sorry, but don't have the R211's have to be modified to allow for cab signaling and have modified door controls (for Atlantic, Nassau, Clifton and Richmond Valley?) Not only that, don't they have to be linked in non-permenant sets?

[P3F]

I'm sorry, but don't have the R211's have to be modified to allow for cab signaling and have modified door controls (for Atlantic, Nassau, Clifton and Richmond Valley?) Not only that, don't they have to be linked in non-permenant sets?

1. Yes, they need to be compatible with Cab Signaling.

2. Yes, they need custom door controls for Richmond Valley (both directions) and Clifton (northbound only).

3. Not necessarily, but the cars will most likely be linked in non-permanent sets anyway as that is more convenient for SIR.

[Lawrence St]

Why does SIR prefer to have non linked sets anyway?

[Around the Horn]

I'm sorry, but don't have the R211's have to be modified to allow for cab signaling and have modified door controls (for Atlantic, Nassau, Clifton and Richmond Valley?) Not only that, don't they have to be linked in non-permenant sets?

 

The R211S will most likely be single cars, with couplers on both ends like the current R44s and PATH PA-5, which means we could see A-B-B-B-A, A-A-B-B-A, A-A-B-A-A or A-A-A-B-A sets in service at some point.

 

The rest of your list is all required to operate on SIR, so there's a 99.9% chance of the R211S having them.

Why does SIR prefer to have non linked sets anyway?

They used to have 5 car trains during rush hour, 2 cars at night and 4 at all other times, so single cars made it easier to cut and add to make trains.

[Lawrence St]

Ah. They also have to have a different font then the regular R211's because of the way how SIR signage is set up.

[Far Rock Depot]

Naturally. The 211S cars will come with the proper modifications for SIR service (hence, the "S" designation on the contract)-being cab signalling and proper door configuration controls. These are going to be NTTs of course. Son programming the doors to open and not open at certain stops may be added. As far as linking, its an engineering fact that electrical systems perform better with hard wiring, but as with PATH's PA5s, the flexibility of being able to uncouple cars comes in handy if SIR continues the practice of different consist lengths during different hours. Well have to wait and see until the specs are laid out for manufacture.

 

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But of course this on one of the many reasons why the 211 Cars are coming in three different versions, with one specifically for SI

 

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[P3F]

Currently the SIR operates 4-car trains (which are 300 feet long) at all times, I believe.

[agar io]

Why on earth would they go to three-digit or five-digit numbers? They aren't going to have more than 10,000 subway cars for the foreseeable future.

Its never really about the number of cars they have at one time. They've used 3-digit numbers before. The current fleet numbers end just below 10000. Even with cars retiring, its still leaves their options open. SI could revert to the low hundreds, given the 211 contract could see over 1000, cars, seeing them start at 500 with the mainline fleet is theoretically possible. 5-digit numbers are less likely, but not impossible.

 

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True. Also, we have less than 9,974 cars, yet the fleet numbers go up to 9974 because of the gaps in numbering between cars of different contracts. These gaps can be used to provide 4-digit numbers for over 2,000 cars without any duplication.

[Lawrence St]

So SIR would be able to run at more frequent intervals you mean? Because the current 15 minutes headways drive me insane.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Lawrence St

[P3F]

So SIR would be able to run at more frequent intervals you mean? Because the current 15 minutes headways drive me insane.

Currently, the headways are:

 

Rush Hours:

Expresses operate every 15 minutes; 4TPH

Locals operate every 15 minutes; 4TPH

 

Middays, Evenings, Nights, and Weekends:

Local trains operate every 30 minutes; 2TPH

 

These headways are mostly consistent with those of the Staten Island Ferry. Thus, any kind of service increase would cater to people who do not currently pay a fare, since the current headways are adequate for ferry users. Personally, I believe that before running more frequent service, the SIR should install fare controls at all its stations, so that the people benefiting from the increased service are actually putting money into the system.

 

Many stations already have station houses, so it wouldn't be too difficult to install fare controls into them. (That's assuming they keep the old station houses; at Grasmere they demolished the old one before building a brand new one.)

 

Some stations have no station house at all; building one without any structural changes to the station would cost around $7 million (since that was the cost of the brand new station house that was built at Tompkinsville a few years ago.) However, it is not easy to build a station house at all stations; some would require structural changes in order to accomodate one.

 

Finally, there is the issue of hiring station agents. The has shown that a station agent is not needed for every station, since the Tompkinsville station house is unstaffed with the emergency exit being controlled from St. George. The amount of agents needed depends on how many stations one agent is expected to control; if one agent controls two stations, then half of the stations need agents. If one agent can control three stations, a third of the stations need agents.

Edited April 18, 2017 by P3F