Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Vulturious]

21 minutes ago, Benny Kanner said:

I think the  should run 24/7 service to & from Bedford Park Boulevard. 

24/7 is a bit overkill since it's not needed during late nights, maybe weekends to help out the  and , but I doubt it's needed in Brooklyn during those times.

[Amiri the subway guy]

21 hours ago, Vulturious said:

24/7 is a bit overkill since it's not needed during late nights, maybe weekends to help out the  and , but I doubt it's needed in Brooklyn during those times.

Here’s a suggestion during daytime weekends hours the  would run from Bedford park blvd and then on 6th Avenue it would instead run local with the  and terminate at 2nd Avenue. If the weekend ridership isn’t high enough of grand concourse to warrant the extra service. The  will only run to 145th Street. 
 

The idea I’ll go with is 

new weekend 

 Central Park West/ 6th Avenue Local 145th Street - Lower East Side 2nd Avenue 

 

This would help increase  service which I heard could take 10-20 minutes. We’ll only need 8  TPH. 
 

late nights  no service 

Use

feedback and criticism is welcome 

[Around the Horn]

I would increase service on the before bringing back the on weekends, but I guess that's just me.

Interlining may make this more difficult but I would try to get the & to run a consistent every 8 minutes on Saturdays and Sundays to pick up the slack. IINM the already does so.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Agreed. Much of the weekend service is bad, but people often opt for - and crowd - the  because it runs more frequently and consistently than the . On weekends, there should really be more of an attempt to run the  more frequently. The  and  too, but as the sole weekend CPW local, the  could really use more service.   

[R68ACTrain]

On 12/20/2022 at 1:38 AM, Around the Horn said:

I would increase service on the before bringing back the on weekends, but I guess that's just me.

Interlining may make this more difficult but I would try to get the & to run a consistent every 8 minutes on Saturdays and Sundays to pick up the slack. IINM the already does so.

The  is not needed in Brooklyn on weekends, I'd rather reroute it to 2nd Avenue

[R68ACTrain]

49 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Agreed. Much of the weekend service is bad, but people often opt for - and crowd - the  because it runs more frequently and consistently than the . On weekends, there should really be more of an attempt to run the  more frequently. The  and  too, but as the sole weekend CPW local, the  could really use more service.   

The  should run more trains period. 

 

[Theli11]

2 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

The  is not needed in Brooklyn on weekends, I'd rather reroute it to 2nd Avenue

I think Brighton Beach is still a better last stop. 2nd Avenue requires the  to cut between the and tracks at Broadway and 2nd Avenue. I don't think any Brighton passenger would complain about the express service being there on the weekends though since the  still has a decent crowd from Coney Island. 

[Lex]

2 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

The  is not needed in Brooklyn on weekends, I'd rather reroute it to 2nd Avenue

In that case, I'd rather not run it at all. Why create more confusion with a(n official) branch that operates on certain days but uses a different one on others?

Don't even try to bring up 63rd Street. It was boneheaded before and that hasn't changed.

[R68ACTrain]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

In that case, I'd rather not run it at all. Why create more confusion with a(n official) branch that operates on certain days but uses a different one on others?

Don't even try to bring up 63rd Street. It was boneheaded before and that hasn't changed.

It shouldn't take alot for someone to comprehend that a service is running elsewhere on the weekends. And what does 63rd have anything to do with this? 63rd is covered by a completely different  route now, things have changed. 

[R68ACTrain]

2 hours ago, Theli11 said:

I think Brighton Beach is still a better last stop. 2nd Avenue requires the  to cut between the and tracks at Broadway and 2nd Avenue. I don't think any Brighton passenger would complain about the express service being there on the weekends though since the  still has a decent crowd from Coney Island. 

It can be a thing where the wknd scheduling can be correlated with and  scheduling, and besides, the way I have it is to have the  run every 20 minutes. Said route doesn't need to be frequent, and it's purpose is to help  and  services. Running from Bedford Park Blvd to 2 Avenue.

[Theli11]

3 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

It can be a thing where the wknd scheduling can be correlated with and  scheduling, and besides, the way I have it is to have the  run every 20 minutes. Said route doesn't need to be frequent, and it's purpose is to help  and  services. Running from Bedford Park Blvd to 2 Avenue.

I think running it down Brighton wouldn't hurt though and I'm sure Brighton passengers would like the extra service on the weekends seeing as to how packed the  trains are and considering that the  is the closest express service to CI. (It's about.. 10-13 stops on the train until it goes Express.)

[Eric B]

With all the building that was going on in Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay, has the weekend ridership been increasing? I remember the trains being packed (at least on Saturday) back when it was still the . But many of those riders were probably coming from the inner portion of the line (including the local stations), and weekend service would only be justified if there were a lot of riders getting on at those two stops, and perhaps Kings Hwy also.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Eric B

[Via Garibaldi 8]

36 minutes ago, Eric B said:

With all the building that was going on in Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay, has the weekend ridership been increasing? I remember the trains being packed (at least on Saturday) back when it was still the . But many of those riders were probably coming from the inner portion of the line (including the local stations), and weekend service would only be justified if there were a lot of riders getting on at those two stops, and perhaps Kings Hwy also.

A lot of those buildings are luxury buildings for people that drive though or were bought strictly as investments (if they didn't sit empty - another issue throughout that area in general - lots of "luxury" apartments and not everyone down there can afford luxury, so some have sat empty - that and shoddy construction is another issue lol). That isn't to say that there isn't good ridership at those stations because there is, but there hasn't been an explosion in ridership compared to years ago. I say this as someone that grew up in the area and still frequents it.

The newer demographic is more concerned with keeping up with the Joneses (same situation in Manhattan Beach), so those people will drive rather than use any public transportation.  They are mainly immigrants looking to show that they've made it, versus the middle to upper middle types that lived there when I grew up there and moved out.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Around the Horn]

12 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

The  should run more trains period. 

 

While I'm not a fan of running the on weekends, using train sets stored at Concourse on a more frequent weekend service is something that should be looked into.

[Wallyhorse]

On 12/21/2022 at 10:41 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Agreed. Much of the weekend service is bad, but people often opt for - and crowd - the  because it runs more frequently and consistently than the . On weekends, there should really be more of an attempt to run the  more frequently. The  and  too, but as the sole weekend CPW local, the  could really use more service.   

Or maybe on weekends, the to 145 or 168 as the second CPW local, combining the current route with the  at that time?

[darkstar8983]

The problem is that all corridors weekends have a roughly 15 train per hour limit in each direction, to accommodate construction work, so that way you don’t need to see constant service suspensions, which is why trains run every 12 minutes weekends on most subway lines, with only the *  and * trains run more frequent service. * = trains run reduced service when there is sharing of tracks between express and local trains.

[TMC]

4 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

The problem is that all corridors weekends have a roughly 15 train per hour limit in each direction, to accommodate construction work, so that way you don’t need to see constant service suspensions, which is why trains run every 12 minutes weekends on most subway lines, with only the *  and * trains run more frequent service. * = trains run reduced service when there is sharing of tracks between express and local trains.

This is another advantage of de-interlining. Weekend work on a specific segment of track won’t require the entire system to run reduced service. Weekend service as it stands is atrocious, and needs to increase to every 6 minutes. If one or two trunks are down for maintenance, and requires the reduced service, the rest of the system could keep on running with 6 minute service, meaning the “alternative routes” the MTA suggests become actual alternatives…

[MTA Researcher]

13 hours ago, TMC said:

This is another advantage of de-interlining. Weekend work on a specific segment of track won’t require the entire system to run reduced service. Weekend service as it stands is atrocious, and needs to increase to every 6 minutes. If one or two trunks are down for maintenance, and requires the reduced service, the rest of the system could keep on running with 6 minute service, meaning the “alternative routes” the MTA suggests become actual alternatives…

Yes, which is why I propose this subway setting:

 

 

All times except Nights

207 - Far Rockaway: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp:

Nights: All Local 

 

 

All Times except Nights

168 - CI: via CPW/8 Av Lcl - W 4 switch - Rutgers St - Culver 

Nights: Delancey St - CI

 

 

All Times except Nights

179 - Lefferts Blvd: via QBL/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Nights: 179 - WTC via QBL/8 Av Lcl

Shuttle Runs Between Euclid Av - Lefferts Blvd

 

 

Rush Hours

205 - CI- via Concourse Exp - CPW/6 Av Exp  - Brighton Lcl

Other Times via Concourse Lcl

 

 

Weekdays:

JC - WTC - QBL Exp via 53rd - 6 Av Lcl via W 4 switch to WTC

Weekends: via 63rd 

Nights: JC - 2 Av via 63rd

 

Weekdays:

71 Av - Brighton Beach: via QBL Lcl - 6 Av/Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Service use D F R trains

 

is fine as is 

 

 

All Times: JC - Bay Ridge-95 St via Local

 

Weekdays

Jamaica Peak Direction Exp

 

All Times except Nights:

125 St - Metropolitan Av via 2 Av Lcl via Williamsburg Bridge 

Nights: Essex St - Metropolitan Av - via Williamsburg Bridge

 

 

All Times except Nights

125 St - Euclid Av via 2 Av/Fulton St Lcl

Nights: 125 - Hoyt

 

 

All Times except Nights

Astoria-Ditmars - CI: via Astoria - 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp - Sea Beach

Nights: All Local via Manhattan Bridge

 

 

All Times except Nights

71 Av - CI: via QBL Lcl - 60 St - Bway/4 Av Exp - West End

Nights: Times Sq - CI via Local and Lower Manhattan

 

 

All Times except Nights:

BPB - Whitehall St: via Concourse/CPW/Bway Lcl

Nights: No Service A D N R trains

 

and look great  

 

and to Flatbush   

to New Lots 

to Utica Av 

 

is great

 

The concept behind this idea is to eliminate unnecessary merges while accommodating all parties. Take CPW for instance; normally it’s either  Exp Lcl or vice versa. However in this proposal you have access to 8 Av and 6 Av  if you’re coming from Express and 8 Av and Broadway coming from Local. Broadway can access CPW via local tracks being extended beyond 57 St7 Av.   

 

must go locsl to cover upper level 50 S. With that said to get the most out of I make and trade places, thus to CI via culver and to WTC. This is possible via the W 4 switch. Now tell me, can we have Culver Express on the  ?

 

can merge with heading to 42 St and from there share track until Rockaway Blvd where goes to Far Rockaway and to Lefferts Blvd   

 

2 Av station can be reconfigured to allow outer tracks to turn back trains, so can terminate there during Nights, while the inner tracks are used for the 2 Av Line  

Since Late Nights would have Local I cut the to 2 Av to avoid conflicting merges.   

 

go via 6 Av/Brighton because Sea Beach loves Broadway. This is just me being conservative about Broadway/Sea Beach love  

 

I know many will hate this one but to Bay Ridge enables trains to run more frequently. Whitehall St has 3 tracks, why not use all 3 tracks to turn back trains? You should realize that here is the sole Broadway Local so we need more trains turning back.    

 

come from Queens, they go to Manhattan and Brooklyn so I make them go Express in 2/3 boroughs. 

 

The Rogers Junction here is solved by swapping around trains. 

 

Looking forward to your feedback on how I did

[TMC]

2 hours ago, MTA Researcher said:

Looking forward to your feedback on how I did

So, generally, the ideas are good, but I have a couple of nitpicks. 
 

1 - I don’t like the switch at West 4th, it messes with what I said earlier about maintenance. You’d be tying 6th and 8th Aves more than I’m comfortable with.

2 - The Q and E also do the same thing, with odd merges that can be fixed with some capital investment.

 
3 - I don’t 2nd Avenue as a line. I’ll try not to rant, but the short story is that the Q is popular because it allows for a one seat ride from the UES to Midtown. BMT Broadway also has the most direct core hit on Midtown jobs, which is a plus (shown below). The problem lies with Phases 3 and 4 leaving a reverse-branch in the system, along with adding no new core capacity. 2nd Ave is too far east to be useful. I like 3rd Ave as a better alignment, as it just skirts the edge of the Midtown core. This 3rd Ave  would most likely run as a super-express north of 63rd Street, as there’s basically nothing else in the UES. Using Alon Levy’s proposals, which I greatly admire, the 3rd Ave Line would eventually find itself in Fort Lee, possibly Paterson. No reverse-branching from Queens Blvd/63rd Street however.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by TMC
Formatting

[Benny Kanner]

5 hours ago, TMC said:

So, generally, the ideas are good, but I have a couple of nitpicks. 
 

1 - I don’t like the switch at West 4th, it messes with what I said earlier about maintenance. You’d be tying 6th and 8th Aves more than I’m comfortable with.

2 - The Q and E also do the same thing, with odd merges that can be fixed with some capital investment.

 
3 - I don’t 2nd Avenue as a line. I’ll try not to rant, but the short story is that the Q is popular because it allows for a one seat ride from the UES to Midtown. BMT Broadway also has the most direct core hit on Midtown jobs, which is a plus (shown below). The problem lies with Phases 3 and 4 leaving a reverse-branch in the system, along with adding no new core capacity. 2nd Ave is too far east to be useful. I like 3rd Ave as a better alignment, as it just skirts the edge of the Midtown core. This 3rd Ave  would most likely run as a super-express north of 63rd Street, as there’s basically nothing else in the UES. Using Alon Levy’s proposals, which I greatly admire, the 3rd Ave Line would eventually find itself in Fort Lee, possibly Paterson. No reverse-branching from Queens Blvd/63rd Street however.

 

The <P>, , <O>, & (O) should be associated with the IND 3rd Avenue Line. Only the <O> & (O) should run express via the IND 3rd Avenue Subway Line, while the <P>, , {(PT)}, & {<PT>} should run local via the IND 3rd Avenue Elevated Line. The <I>, (I), , , <Y>, &  should be associated with the BMT 2nd Avenue Line. 

[Benny Kanner]

The  should be 24/7 & run from Cross Island Parkway-Alley Pond Park to Coney Island-Neptune Avenue. The  should run from Flushing-Main Street to Prospect Park. 

These should be the  &  stations: 

Ⓜ️ Cross Island Parkway-Alley Pond Park
Ⓜ️ 217th Street
Ⓜ️ Oceania Street
Ⓜ️ Francis Lewis Boulevard
Ⓜ️ Utopia Parkway
Ⓜ️ Sanford Avenue
Ⓜ️ 158th Street
Ⓜ️ 149th Street  

Ⓜ️ Flushing-Main Street  
Ⓜ️ Mets-Willets Point
Ⓜ️ 111th Street
Ⓜ️ 103rd Street-Corona Plaza
Ⓜ️ Junction Blvd
Ⓜ️ 90th Street-Elmhurst Avenue
Ⓜ️ 82nd Street
Ⓜ️ 74th Street
Ⓜ️ 69th Street
Ⓜ️ 61st Street
Ⓜ️ 52nd Street
Ⓜ️ 46th Street
Ⓜ️ 40th Street
Ⓜ️ 33rd Street
Ⓜ️ Queensboro Plaza
Ⓜ️ Court Square
Ⓜ️ Hunters Point Avenue
Ⓜ️ Vernon Boulevard-Jackson Avenue
Ⓜ️ 1st Avenue-42nd Street
Ⓜ️ Grand Central 42nd Street
Ⓜ️ 5th Avenue-42nd Street
Ⓜ️ Times Square 42nd Street
Ⓜ️ Dyre Avenue-Lincoln Tunnel
Ⓜ️ 34th Street Hudson Yards
Ⓜ️ 28th Street
Ⓜ️ 23rd Street
Ⓜ️ 18th Street
Ⓜ️ 14th Street
Ⓜ️ Bank Street
Ⓜ️ Leroy Street
Ⓜ️ Spring Street
Ⓜ️ Laight Street
Ⓜ️ Harrison Street
Ⓜ️ Murray Street
Ⓜ️ World Trade Center-Cortlandt Street
Ⓜ️ Rector Street
Ⓜ️ South Ferry
Ⓜ️ Governors Island (7)
Ⓜ️ Van Brunt Street <7>(7)
Ⓜ️ Columbia Street <7>(7)
Ⓜ️ Smith Street <7>(7)
Ⓜ️ 4th Avenue <7>(7)
Ⓜ️ 7th Avenue <7>(7)
Ⓜ️ Prospect Park <7>
Ⓜ️ Prospect Park Loop (Lower level for the (7) terminal)
Ⓜ️ Rogers Avenue <7>
Ⓜ️ Church Avenue <7>
Ⓜ️ Flatbush Avenue <7>
Ⓜ️ Kings Highway <7>
Ⓜ️ Quentin Road <7>
Ⓜ️ East 16th Street <7>
Ⓜ️ West 9th Street <7>
Ⓜ️ Haraway Avenue <7>
Ⓜ️ Bay 46th Street <7>
Ⓜ️ Belt Parkway <7>
Ⓜ️ Coney Island-Neptune Avenue <7>

[mrsman]

On 12/26/2022 at 5:07 PM, TMC said:

This is another advantage of de-interlining. Weekend work on a specific segment of track won’t require the entire system to run reduced service. Weekend service as it stands is atrocious, and needs to increase to every 6 minutes. If one or two trunks are down for maintenance, and requires the reduced service, the rest of the system could keep on running with 6 minute service, meaning the “alternative routes” the MTA suggests become actual alternatives…

This is a brilliant point and one that unfortunately does not get repeated enough regarding the benefits of deinterlining.  Other benefits are that there are increased opportunities to get the train that you want from any specific station.  For most passengers, delays are a far bigger compaint than having to make an additional transfer.

My way of deinterlining would be roughly as follows:

8th Ave express:   unchanged.   Concourse line - CPW express - 8th Ave express - Fulton local to Euclid.  Add a platform extension to allow for trains to stop at 50th street. 

8th Ave local:  Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd - WTC

6th Ave express:  168th - CPW local - Brighton local.   BPB - Concourse rush hour local - CPW local - Brighton express. 

6th Ave local:  Jamaica Center,   179th Hillside local,   179th Hillside express.  All three merge into the express tracks before Forest Hills and follow 63rd st and 6th Ave local.   will follow Culver local to CI.  Depending on time of day, some  or  trains can run to Church as Culver expresses, run to Church as Culver locals to supplement the , or some may terminate at 2nd/Houston to avoid congestion at Church.

train will normally run to Kings Highway so as to not interfere with any of the Culver express services that terminate at Church.  If F and V are coming from Manhattan, the V can leave the Culver main to the express tracks at the point that the G merges into the Culver main to reduce delays.   

M will unfortunately have to revert to Chamberst Street.  The numerous merges involved with its service allows for too many possibilities of delay.

Broadway express:   and both originate at 96th and will follow Broadway express and 4th Ave express to either West End  or Sea Beach  

Broadway local: Astoria - Broadway local - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge.  Even though there is no dedicated yard, BMT has run such a service successfully for many years.  trains can easily merge into either N or Q line for non-revenue moves in Brooklyn to access Coney Island Yard.

 

 

[JustTheSIR]

Why doesn’t anyone talk about making the R express on QBL and the E local

or making more services fully local/express like sending the F full express, and B full local except Brighton

[LGA Link N Train]

2 hours ago, JustTheSIR said:

Why doesn’t anyone talk about making the R express on QBL and the E local

or making more services fully local/express like sending the F full express, and B full local except Brighton

Sending the Express on QBL would require rerouting it via 63rd. Which wouldn't solve the problem with trains merging at 34th-Broadway.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

4 hours ago, JustTheSIR said:

Why doesn’t anyone talk about making the R express on QBL and the E local

or making more services fully local/express like sending the F full express, and B full local except Brighton

I've suggested running the  local and the  express in the past. With the  running to/from 71st Ave and the  replacing the  at Jamaica Center. I seem to get crickets for a response every time I bring that up. Not sure why. I mean, it would clear up the three big choke points (36th St, QP, 11th St Cut) that kneecap QBL and Astoria service. 
 

To be fair, this topic has been really quiet since the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic, probably because the  have been hemorrhaging money and riders for much of the past two years, so few people, if any, want to talk about expansion or revising current services in the face of the current circumstances.

Quote

Sending the Express on QBL would require rerouting it via 63rd. Which wouldn't solve the problem with trains merging at 34th-Broadway. 

But it doesn't have to be the . It could be the  or . I prefer the  because from a communications standpoint, it wouldn't be so great if QBL had three services that sound alike (F (eff), M (em), N (en)). But if it's just easier to extend the  since 2nd Ave riders are already used to the , then I'm fine with that.

Edited December 28, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue